Windows 10 updates more likely to cause problems than running it unpatched? The irony of the updater

heatlesssun

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FWIW, .00001% of the installed user base with a Surface device arent "many users", and most Surface users I see on the rare occasion out at a Starbucks are just using it as a glorified ultralight laptop - no screen poking.

Touch on Windows is dead in the water because the apps are crap.
The Surface line is but brand out of a quite a lot of Windows tablet and 2 in 1 devices these days and they are growing a much faster than traditional hardware and account for 10% of ALL new hardware sales today. That's not counting touch screen clamshell laptops. It's not an either or situation. Windows HAS to run on tablets and 2 in 1s devices. It's not an option for Microsoft to go back on that at this time.
 

BulletDust

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The Surface line is but brand out of a quite a lot of Windows tablet and 2 in 1 devices these days and they are growing a much faster than traditional hardware and account for 10% of ALL new hardware sales today. That's not counting touch screen clamshell laptops. It's not an either or situation. Windows HAS to run on tablets and 2 in 1s devices. It's not an option for Microsoft to go back on that at this time.
The touch interface has no place anywhere near a desktop PC, it confuses people due to the doubling up of certain functions in the UI, it's fragmented and it's unnessecary. As for Windows based tablets, the Surface brand is mostly overpriced and the affordable devices are literally laptops or all in one desktop PC's with touch displays - People buy them, use the touch screen for about a week, realise it's unnessecary as they have a perfectly good physical keyboard and mouse that's easier to use and never use the touch interface again.

As DPI stated, everytime I see someone using a surface product, which is rare, they're making no use of the touch functionality at all - They simply view it as a fancy laptop.
 

heatlesssun

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The touch interface has no place anywhere near a desktop PC, it confuses people due to the doubling up of certain functions in the UI, it's fragmented and it's unnessecary. As for Windows based tablets, the Surface brand is mostly overpriced and the affordable devices are literally laptops or all in one desktop PC's with touch displays - People buy them, use the touch screen for about a week, realise it's unnessecary as they have a perfectly good physical keyboard and mouse that's easier to use and never use the touch interface again.
Windows on tablets and 2 in 1s has been around quite a while, years before iOS and Android even existed. Th e problem prior to Windows 8 was that Windows was just a keyboard and mouse driven OS. Windows Vista introduced driver level support for touch, Windows 7 added touch to the OS. But there weren't very few touch aware applications.

Too many people use Windows on too many kinds of devices for you or me or anyone to define how it best works for everyone. That's no better than Microsoft say taking away control of updates from average users. Keybaords and mice are great. For 90% of what people use Windows for they work pretty much like they always have. Libreoffice works just the same on Linux, Windows 7 or Windows 10. There's not that much difference in the keyboard and mouse interaction between 7 and 10. The major areas are in the Start Menu and Control Panel where there is now a modern Settings UI. And those differences really aren't so much that a mouse and keyboard work differently, but the Start Menu and Settings were added in part to accommodate touch. But they work perfectly well with a keyboard.

10 cleaned up the biggest issues with 8 in keyboard and mouse operation. I've upgraded several older PC users and they honestly have been fine with 10. It's different but not radically different or foreign to most PC desktop users. Of course it could be improved but it's workable. There's no need to remove it from the desktop and there a number of good apps out there that add to the desktop experience.

As DPI stated, everytime I see someone using a surface product, which is rare, they're making no use of the touch functionality at all - They simply view it as a fancy laptop.
Microsoft said this past Monday that it sold more Surface devices in November than ever. Microsoft, Best Buy and others have been running a lot of sales on Surfaces. Yeah, they are pricy. But they seem to have made a name for themselves and again, as the traditional PC market and the Mac struggles in sales, Windows tablets and 2 in 1s are doing pretty well.

I'm not saying that the execution is perfect, it's not, but allowing Windows to run on different kinds of devices and use different kinds of input are critical to the future of Windows. Traditional desktops and laptops simply aren't enough.
 

BulletDust

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I'm simply stating that there should be an option on install to disable the touch interface completely for desktop use. I'd have to estimate that out of all the clients I have, eight out of ten preferred Windows 7 for various reasons.

Lately I've been doing a lot of work for people having WiFi connectivity issues since the latest Windows update, every time they state "I was perfectly happy with Windows 7, I don't understand why this switch to Windows 10 was necessary". There needs to be far more control over the updater without resorting to third party hacks.
 

rezerekted

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Do you really trust a third party hack when the functionality should exist in the OS itself? Next major update Microsoft will probably take it upon themselves to remove and disable this application.
I downloaded it but have never used it because I am on Win8.1 so don't need it. But, yea, I did run and it and it looks legit to me so I do trust it. You can do it manually or you can do it the easy way with this software, take your pick. Just don't suggest it is bad software that will harm your PC because it isn't. This software is a portable app so doesn't install any crap on your PC either.
 
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BulletDust

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I downloaded it but have never used it because I am on Win8.1 so don't need it. But, yea, I did run and it and it looks legit to me so I do trust it. You can do it manually or you can do it the easy way with this software, take your pick. Just don't suggest it is bad software that will harm your PC because it isn't. This software is a portable app so doesn't install any crap on your PC either.
Until MS force an update otherwise the user looses functionality and the third party hack is disabled and removed.
 

B00nie

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I downloaded it but have never used it because I am on Win8.1 so don't need it. But, yea, I did run and it and it looks legit to me so I do trust it. You can do it manually or you can do it the easy way with this software, take your pick. Just don't suggest it is bad software that will harm your PC because it isn't. This software is a portable app so doesn't install any crap on your PC either.
Lesson number one: You never EVER download something and run it before you determine if it's legit or not. Behaviour like that is the reason why antiviruses exist lol.
 

BulletDust

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Doubt it and it is free anyway so there is nothing to lose if that was to happen.
Why do you doubt it? They've disabled and uninstalled certain software applications on major updates before.

Personally, I don't want to use a third party hack to achieve functionality that should be part of the basics when it comes to any operating system.
 

rezerekted

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Why do you doubt it? They've disabled and uninstalled certain software applications on major updates before.

Personally, I don't want to use a third party hack to achieve functionality that should be part of the basics when it comes to any operating system.
Because it is a portable app so there is nothing to uninstall and it is not listed in installed apps. Microsoft does not even know it is there, unless they audit my PC, which would be illegal but wouldn't put it past them. This utility just changes some registry entries and is not "hacking" your PC. These are just functions that are already there but Microsoft chose to hide from GPedit on Win10 and these guys found those hidden switches.
 

BulletDust

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I don't think it's a good idea to fully disable Windows 10 updates, I'd just like the ability to apply updates at my choosing at a time I believe is suitable. I'd also like to disable driver updates as part of Windows update quickly and easily under Windows 10 with the anniversary update.
 

PliotronX

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I don't think it's a good idea to fully disable Windows 10 updates, I'd just like the ability to apply updates at my choosing at a time I believe is suitable. I'd also like to disable driver updates as part of Windows update quickly and easily under Windows 10 with the anniversary update.
The issue is indeed with automatic updates, damn nearly all of the systems that have gotten hung up on applying updates automatically (against the user's choice first thing in the morning, causing fun times) and I have been involved with, apply the same update just fine when manually downloaded and installed. Microsoft attempted to make Wintel systems manage updates for users but there are too many logistical issues that it has ended up irritating users with no real benefit. It has caused me to disable automatic updates altogether on the 10 systems I normally use and install updates only after being vetted. It is a lot less stressful this way.
 

BulletDust

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The issue is indeed with automatic updates, damn nearly all of the systems that have gotten hung up on applying updates automatically (against the user's choice first thing in the morning, causing fun times) and I have been involved with, apply the same update just fine when manually downloaded and installed. Microsoft attempted to make Wintel systems manage updates for users but there are too many logistical issues that it has ended up irritating users with no real benefit. It has caused me to disable automatic updates altogether on the 10 systems I normally use and install updates only after being vetted. It is a lot less stressful this way.
I totally agree, your experiences re: The Windows 10 updater reflect my findings perfectly.
 

bigdogchris

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After recent batch of updates, if you run Disk Cleanup you see that Windows Update Cleanup needs to remove 3.99TB of files ;) Seen it on multiple Windows 10 installs.
 

heatlesssun

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After recent batch of updates, if you run Disk Cleanup you see that Windows Update Cleanup needs to remove 3.99TB of files ;) Seen it on multiple Windows 10 installs.
Disk Cleanup was introduced in Windows 7 I believe. In any case, a good utility to run from time to time to clean up WU temp and restore files along with error dumps and other temp files.
 

bigdogchris

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Disk Cleanup was introduced in Windows 7 I believe. In any case, a good utility to run from time to time to clean up WU temp and restore files along with error dumps and other temp files.
The funny part here is that it's specifically the Windows Update components that is 3.99TB, like it's normally 4GB after you do an in place upgrade, etc. It's an obvious bug in this case. I saw it on a system with only a 256GB SSD.
 

evilsofa

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After recent batch of updates, if you run Disk Cleanup you see that Windows Update Cleanup needs to remove 3.99TB of files ;) Seen it on multiple Windows 10 installs.
"Now it seems that KB3194798 update also stores multiple hard links of its system files in various folders such as "C:\Windows\SoftwareDistribution", WinSxS, etc, which confuses Disk Cleanup tool and it miscalculates the size of Windows Update cleanup. It seems Disk Cleanup tool doesn't check for hard links while calculating the size of the folders, hence it also counts the size of hard links and performs inaccurate calculation." (source)

tl;dr: it's a cosmetic bug. Windows Update Cleanup will still do the job properly.
 

Snoflo

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Um, I kinda love how Microsoft has kept the concept of pen computing alive, even when it wasn't popular. I'd be toast if the pen computer didn't exist re: the way I do my work. Writing things down just works better for me as opposed to typing it.
 

heatlesssun

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Um, I kinda love how Microsoft has kept the concept of pen computing alive, even when it wasn't popular. I'd be toast if the pen computer didn't exist re: the way I do my work. Writing things down just works better for me as opposed to typing it.
Pen computing has been around a long time and there's long been a niche market for it that will pay good money for these devices.
 

BulletDust

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I've got a Windows 3.1 based 486 laptop somewhere here that makes use of a touchscreen and a pen, that's how long MS have been trying to push the idea.
 

heatlesssun

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I've got a Windows 3.1 based 486 laptop somewhere here that makes use of a touchscreen and a pen, that's how long MS have been trying to push the idea.
Windows for Pen Computing, my first good tech job involved a project where were using this in a distribution environment, what was over 20 years ago. But again, there are natural uses for this tech, education and art in particular. That's why they've endured.
 

BulletDust

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Windows for Pen Computing, my first good tech job involved a project where were using this in a distribution environment, what was over 20 years ago. But again, there are natural uses for this tech, education and art in particular. That's why they've endured.
Honestly, considering the hardware,technical limitations of the day it actually worked quite well.
 

DrDoU

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went back to 8.1 piss on these updates caused nothing but problems Fuck Microshaft
 

heatlesssun

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Honestly, considering the hardware,technical limitations of the day it actually worked quite well.
The hardware to run Windows well on these kinds of devices has only come online in the last few years. Crappy battery life, too hot and too heavy were long big problems even though ink technology itself, at least Wacom's, has long been pretty good.
 

M76

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This thing is absolute garbage. I've just done fresh install, and it's unable to complete updates, it tries downloading something then sometimes it fails sometimes it asks for restart then it fails. It's junk. And with absolute no user oversight on what's it actually trying to do, I have no way of fixing it either.
 

WhoBeDaPlaya

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Still running Win7x64 Ultimate SP1 on all systems.
That Win10 sh*t gets relegated to it's own tiny 64GB mSATA SSD, and is only used for playing DX12 titles.
 
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