Windows 10 updates more likely to cause problems than running it unpatched? The irony of the updater

Flogger23m

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Messages
10,607
After watching my laptop update for nearly 20 minutes, sitting at 100% I had to force the power off and reboot the system. Now it is re-running through the update process. The supposed auto updates are to make the OS safer, but I think forcefully shutting off the power to use your PC mid update is more likely to cause problems to your OS install than any supposed security hole. The long load times force many users to force the system off mid update due to the updater choosing its own schedule, which tends to be in the most inconvenient times. I merely wanted to use the SD card on my laptop, a 30 second task. Not wait 20+ minutes for an unexpected update that would hang at 100%.

I can imagine for the typical user who needs to use their PC in a hurry or turn off their PC in a hurry as they have to leave/conserve batter life forcefully powering off their OS will cause more instability in the long run.

My options are to buy Win 10 Pro for my laptop and likely reinstall the OS, which I do not care to do. Or buy an SD card reader for my desktop. I think the SD card reader will be cheaper/more handy.

Considering most laptops don't come with Win 10 Pro, it makes going Apple a much more real possibility for me laptop wise in the future. It is not like I can customize or built my laptop anyways. I can only imagine the typical laptop user being even more frustrated than I am due to the extremely inconvenient updater with a low reliability rate.

My short rant is over. :)
 

PliotronX

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 8, 2000
Messages
2,070
I agree, I have been leaving the feedback for Windows 10 in the little popup on computers that I have been unbricking after a bad update to the effect of not using real computers as beta testing with their faulty updates. It's a dire situation and there are ways to stop automatic updates which are the most troublesome. Oddly enough, a lot of the faulty updates seem to apply just fine when done manually. Something about their automatic updates are bricking a lot of systems.
 

Flogger23m

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Messages
10,607
I agree, I have been leaving the feedback for Windows 10 in the little popup on computers that I have been unbricking after a bad update to the effect of not using real computers as beta testing with their faulty updates. It's a dire situation and there are ways to stop automatic updates which are the most troublesome. Oddly enough, a lot of the faulty updates seem to apply just fine when done manually. Something about their automatic updates are bricking a lot of systems.
My experience, limited to a single laptop. Ironically on my Win 10 Pro desktop I now update less frequently than I did with Vista/7. Maybe because I am greeted with an update each time I shut down my laptop.
 

Machupo

Gravity Tester
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Messages
5,160
Windows anniversary update scrammed one of my 4TB externals with a movie backup library on it... rage quit windows and installed Maui 2 (netrunner) and couldn't be happier (and recovered the drive data).
 
  • Like
Reactions: dan1
like this

bigdogchris

Fully [H]
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
18,105
I've yet to have any issues with Windows 10 updates (have went from release to 1607 without clean installing on 1 PC) but I'm also not the type of person to forcibly shut down a PC in the middle of the updates.

I don't get why some people find zero time to apply updates. You know it's prompting to install updates, click it before going to bed one night or a day that your not using it, rather than keep delaying. I also run updates on my laptop when I don't need it so it's ready when I do need it. There are plenty of ways to make it work.
 
Last edited:

BulletDust

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 17, 2016
Messages
6,057
My computer updates all the time, while it's updating I use it for many other tasks no problem, the only time I need to reboot is when doing a kernel update and the boot process isn't drawn out any longer than a normal boot and the reboot process can be done any time I choose for it to be done...

...But I'm not running Windows, the operating system with an update process dating back to Windows 95.
 

OEM

Fully [H]
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
20,356
I haven't put the AU on my gaming rig...and still won't. I update my laptop as a beta tester computer, and I updated it this weekend to the latest build...TONS of issues.

Fuck you, MS.
 
Joined
Jan 31, 2015
Messages
12
My Windows Updates are disabled. I update it once a month.

The Anniversary Update did a lot of damage to the reputation of Windows 10, because my laptop wouldn't function properly with the 1607 update.
Now it's running Win10 Edu 1511 again, without too many problems.

Automatic rebooting is also disabled. I hate it when the host of my virtual machine reboots, when I am making homework, and thus crashing all my guest VM's.

My laptop is 5 years old, runs Win10 1511 without any issues, but 1607 screws it all up.
1607 never again. Rather Linux than Win10 1607.
 

bigdogchris

Fully [H]
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
18,105
When the new versions come out, I download the ISO and mount it then do the upgrade from there. Haven't had problems on 3 that I've done so far.
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
When the new versions come out, I download the ISO and mount it then do the upgrade from there. Haven't had problems on 3 that I've done so far.
I have 1607 with the latest updates running fine on 6 devices of various types. Personally I've had no more issues with Windows 10 updating than any other version of Windows. I know the process isn't perfect and has issues and I see threads like this but it's hard to imagine that Windows 10 updating is problematic on a large scale, maybe 1% or so have problems. I'd love to see Microsoft's numbers on this, I imagine that have to have metrics on this.
 

Domingo

Fully [H]
Joined
Jul 30, 2004
Messages
17,889
I've only had minor update issues (mainly related to modern apps borking) but I've had 2 friends with major installation issues that required a full re-install in both instances.
 

LurkerLito

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
2,190
maybe 1% or so have problems. I'd love to see Microsoft's numbers on this, I imagine that have to have metrics on this.
And personally I think that's too high a percentage given the number of windows installations. If there are about 300m users now you are still talking about 3 million people having issues.
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
And personally I think that's too high a percentage given the number of windows installations. If there are about 300m users now you are still talking about 3 million people having issues.
I'm not at all saying a 1% failure rate is good, the absolute number is quite large. But a 1% problem rate is far from more than likely to cause a problem as well. Again, this is something that REALLY needs empirical data to discuss meaningfully beyond anecdotes.
 

B00nie

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
8,294
My Windows Updates are disabled. I update it once a month.

The Anniversary Update did a lot of damage to the reputation of Windows 10, because my laptop wouldn't function properly with the 1607 update.
Now it's running Win10 Edu 1511 again, without too many problems.

Automatic rebooting is also disabled. I hate it when the host of my virtual machine reboots, when I am making homework, and thus crashing all my guest VM's.

My laptop is 5 years old, runs Win10 1511 without any issues, but 1607 screws it all up.
1607 never again. Rather Linux than Win10 1607.
I'm sorry but you shouldn't run Windows as a VM host lol. You need something stable for the job like Debian or Centos.
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
I'm sorry but you shouldn't run Windows as a VM host lol. You need something stable for the job like Debian or Centos.
Hmmm, I'm using Windows 10 and Hyper-V on my sig rig to run Linux in VMs. Perfectly stable.
 

Stoly

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
6,567
I haven't put the AU on my gaming rig...and still won't. I update my laptop as a beta tester computer, and I updated it this weekend to the latest build...TONS of issues.

Fuck you, MS.
Name one. I have yet to have any issues at all.
 

B00nie

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
8,294
Hmmm, I'm using Windows 10 and Hyper-V on my sig rig to run Linux in VMs. Perfectly stable.
Yeah except that Silentcode (along with a host of others) didn't seem to have even remotely similar to your experience. Just the forced updates alone make it completely unsuitable for any job requiring a stable platform.
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
Yeah except that Silentcode (along with a host of others) didn't seem to have even remotely similar to your experience. Just the forced updates alone make it completely unsuitable for any job requiring a stable platform.
Any stable and secure system is forced to update, it's simply a question of when. We're constantly patching our Linux servers like our Windows servers. The issue for Windows 10 in the consumer space for some is control of exactly what gets patched and when. I get the issues with forcing automatically but really patching isn't something that consumers should be thinking about.
 

OEM

Fully [H]
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
20,356
Name one. I have yet to have any issues at all.
1. My laptop is completely unusable for about 20 seconds after I leave a game. I can't click on the start bar, and shortcuts or windows on the start bar, or even open the start bar itself. The system just hangs. After about 20 seconds, it works perfectly.
 

bigdogchris

Fully [H]
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
18,105
I have 1607 with the latest updates running fine on 6 devices of various types. Personally I've had no more issues with Windows 10 updating than any other version of Windows. I know the process isn't perfect and has issues and I see threads like this but it's hard to imagine that Windows 10 updating is problematic on a large scale, maybe 1% or so have problems. I'd love to see Microsoft's numbers on this, I imagine that have to have metrics on this.
I really wonder if 3rd party tweaking (to block telemetry, other non-recommended tweaks, etc) is what causes their headaches. Who knows what may be screwed up in the upgrade process due to stuff that shouldn't be done.
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
I really wonder if 3rd party tweaking (to block telemetry, other non-recommended tweaks, etc) is what causes their headaches. Who knows what may be screwed up in the upgrade process due to stuff that shouldn't be done.
I've been kind of wondering the same thing and I think that's got to be at least part of it.
 

B00nie

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
8,294
Microsoft probably intentionally tied certain services to non-related processes so that anyone disabling telemetry etc. will unintentionally damage the system. Better not to use the OS at all - especially if you have to pay for it.

I got it for free and I never bother to boot to it anymore.
 

BulletDust

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 17, 2016
Messages
6,057
It never ceases to amaze me how the updater manages to literally suck the guts out of my crappy Australian internet connection. Seriously, the second that updater starts it sucks up every last bit of bandwidth and internet access for every other device on the network slows to a crawl and there's no way to pause the updating process.
 

DPI

Nitpick Police
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
10,960
I really wonder if 3rd party tweaking (to block telemetry, other non-recommended tweaks, etc) is what causes their headaches. Who knows what may be screwed up in the upgrade process due to stuff that shouldn't be done.
The irony is that these third party tools only exist because of Microsoft removing user choice in 10. They're completely Microsoft's creation.

That said, I'm not buying the fingerpointing at third party tools - 10 is already a buggy mess with no apparent QC/QA process.
 
Last edited:

pxc

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 22, 2000
Messages
33,064
I don't plan on installing the Windows 7 security only update next week until 1) I've re-imaged the OS partition on my primary system to recover if the patch causes the OS to 'splode, 2) wait days or longer until the pseudo-beta quality patch (reach high, MS!) is tested by brave canaries and 3) until there's word that no spyware has been slipped in (again).

So much better than when individual patches with at least some documentation were available... Lucky Vista users out there have it so good with individual patches. :p

 
Last edited:

YeuEmMaiMai

Death Incarnate
Joined
Jun 11, 2004
Messages
17,589
I am on the insider program and get updates every few days and so far nothing too serious has happened.....
 

B00nie

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
8,294
It never ceases to amaze me how the updater manages to literally suck the guts out of my crappy Australian internet connection. Seriously, the second that updater starts it sucks up every last bit of bandwidth and internet access for every other device on the network slows to a crawl and there's no way to pause the updating process.
Set up QoS in your router. Throttle the updates.
 

zero2dash

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
6,081
I don't plan on installing the Windows 7 security only update next week until 1) I've re-imaged the OS partition on my primary system to recover if the patch causes the OS to 'splode, 2) wait days or longer until the pseudo-beta quality patch (reach high, MS!) is tested by brave canaries and 3) until there's word that no spyware has been slipped in (again).
I'll never install anything but security-only patches going forward, after the minimum 2-week incubation process has run it's course with everyone else foolish enough to install Microsoft updates on release day.
I'd be fully in Ubuntu land by now if the games were there...
 

B00nie

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
8,294
I'll never install anything but security-only patches going forward, after the minimum 2-week incubation process has run it's course with everyone else foolish enough to install Microsoft updates on release day.
I'd be fully in Ubuntu land by now if the games were there...
I was surprised to see already hundreds of game titles on linux Steam. It's getting better definately. Even some AAA titles are in the mix.
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
I was surprised to see already hundreds of game titles on linux Steam. It's getting better definately. Even some AAA titles are in the mix.
As of right now there are 5,955 games on Steam for Linux and 23,531 so that's 25.3% of all the titles. That's better that it used to be but still nearly 3 out of 4 and almost all of the AAA games, and that doesn't count some the bigones not on Steam like BF1. On the bleeding edge there are 2 VR only titles under Linux versus 716 under Windows. So for AAA gamers and those venturing into new stuff like VR, Linux is only ok if you want anything beyond basic indie stuff.
 

BulletDust

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 17, 2016
Messages
6,057
As of right now there are 5,955 games on Steam for Linux and 23,531 so that's 25.3% of all the titles. That's better that it used to be but still nearly 3 out of 4 and almost all of the AAA games, and that doesn't count some the bigones not on Steam like BF1. On the bleeding edge there are 2 VR only titles under Linux versus 716 under Windows. So for AAA gamers and those venturing into new stuff like VR, Linux is only ok if you want anything beyond basic indie stuff.
Kind of like the PC in the 80's in comparison to Motorola 68k machines?
 

B00nie

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
8,294
As of right now there are 5,955 games on Steam for Linux and 23,531 so that's 25.3% of all the titles. That's better that it used to be but still nearly 3 out of 4 and almost all of the AAA games, and that doesn't count some the bigones not on Steam like BF1. On the bleeding edge there are 2 VR only titles under Linux versus 716 under Windows. So for AAA gamers and those venturing into new stuff like VR, Linux is only ok if you want anything beyond basic indie stuff.
Sometimes you have to make sacrifices not to sell your soul. This is definitevely the case with microsoft.
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
Sometimes you have to make sacrifices not to sell your soul. This is definitevely the case with microsoft.
I've been playing games on computers for 37 years. It's not a political thing for me but something I've longed enjoyed and will probably do so until I can't or until I die.
 

pxc

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 22, 2000
Messages
33,064
Kind of like the PC in the 80's in comparison to Motorola 68k machines?
So many variables there, from operating system to prices to work performed per instruction per clock on a CPU. I liked the Mac, but the old models were really sluggish sometimes when doing common tasks due to the heavy overhead of the GUI on the CPU and memory. There was a reason the PC won the business desktop. Sometimes you may want to draw lines and move a cursor on the screen, and sometimes you want to get work done. :p

IMO, the 68k series didn't get interesting until the 68020 was released at higher clock speeds (I still have an old Mac LC in the closet given to me many years after release), and that clearly blew away competing PCs around 1987. Once the 486 was released in 1989, the 68k series had a lot of catching up to do in performance, relying on clock speed improvements. It never really ruled again, in 68k or PowerPC, except in carefully chosen benchmarks (Apple's legendary Altivec-optimized Photoshop filter tests).
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
Kind of like the PC in the 80's in comparison to Motorola 68k machines?
Back in those days Apple IIs and C64s were the big computing gaming platforms I recall. PCs were still pretty pricy and all the people with money bought Apple IIs.
 

BulletDust

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 17, 2016
Messages
6,057
Back in those days Apple IIs and C64s were the big computing gaming platforms I recall. PCs were still pretty pricy and all the people with money bought Apple IIs.
The issue wasn't that PC's were pricey, the issue was that they were never designed to be gaming machines, they were purely office machines - The mere notion of gaming on a PC was downright laughable.

Then 3dfx created the Voodoo card and DOOM was released, and it wasn't based on DX.

With Linux adoption on the rise again and Microsoft digging a hole with their all controlling latest OS, there's no way anyone can state change isn't possible.
 

BulletDust

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 17, 2016
Messages
6,057
IMO, the 68k series didn't get interesting until the 68020 was released at higher clock speeds (I still have an old Mac LC in the closet given to me many years after release), and that clearly blew away competing PCs around 1987. Once the 486 was released in 1989, the 68k series had a lot of catching up to do in performance, relying on clock speed improvements. It never really ruled again, in 68k or PowerPC, except in carefully chosen benchmarks (Apple's legendary Altivec-optimized Photoshop filter tests).
Really? As an Amiga user I remember being a little disappointed in the 68020, it wasn't until the 68030 was released that I really noticed a difference over the venerable 68000.
 
Top