Windows 10 19H1: All the Changes We Know So Far

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    This is true, but it is also an obvious work in progress- stuff gets migrated on every release, without functionality being cut out. Really a very clean way to do the transition that for whatever reason they don't want to do all at once.

    Sure, but none are as smooth as Windows in operation. I wish they were!
     
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  2. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Fragmentation of the desktop UI, as you consider it, is not the same thing as fragmentation of the base OS. You can customize and change the interface on Windows 10 to many different thing but, the base OS is the same. On the other hand, the Linux Desktop is all over the place and makes in near impossible for ISV's to support Linux properly out of the box. Hence, severe fragmentation is a big problem.
     
  3. naib

    naib [H]ard|Gawd

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    There is no fragmentation of the base OS...
    This is one of those long running FUD statements.

    ALL Linux distro's pull from the same upstream source projects.
    kernel
    gcc
    glibc
    coreutils
    make
    elfutils
    ...

    The core list of packages is common between distro's as this is what is needed to produce a linux system that works with binaries. If you can get a binary working on one distro you can get it working on another.
    The best analogy for windows uses who cannot see the difference is windows itself... Hardly any windows10 installs are identical... fast or slow ring, some block patches, some never patch. THIS is what it is like in linux. Different distro's are at different versions of a library/binary that all distro's make use of and provide.
    Most binary distro's update on a 6month cycle to bump to a version they settled on just before the freeze.
    The LTS variants won't update as quick for obvious reasons but do backport security fixes
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
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  4. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    There is no fragmentation of the base OS, no idea what you're talking about.
     
  5. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    Desktop functionality being cut for a touch oriented OS - No thank you!

    As stated, due to the lack of UI fragmentation within the one OS, I find my Linux install to be 'smoother' in operation than Windows.
     
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  6. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It's touch-compatible, but not really touch-oriented? And functionality isn't being cut, but updated?

    And I'm talking about how the OS actually responds to input. Linux is not even close, and the experience between distros is far from consistent as soon as you step outside what that distro provides directly.
     
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  7. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    As Windows evolves, desktop components, like the Control Panel, are being phased out in favor of the Settings Panel - The Control has been deliberately removed from the right click Start menu. This is a regression, not an advancement in relation to a desktop OS. I want my desktop to behave like a desktop and retain a desktop UI, I don't want my desktop to behave like a phone with a large, clunky phone UI.

    Running Compiz my desktop is every bit as smooth and responsive as Windows using Nvidia hardware/drivers. I'm tempted to try Plasma, it looks perfect and I never had a problem with KDE in the past.
     
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  8. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Except it's not a phone UI? I know that's meant to denigrate it, but I don't see it as anything other than 'modern'. Certainly more modern-looking and feeling than any of the major distros provide.

    I'll have to disagree, having used both very recently ;).
     
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  9. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    I disagree, with every update it's becoming more and more a phone UI. Big and clunky for fingers to mash.

    And you're entitled to disagree. [Drags windows around desktop just fine].
     
  10. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Which makes it poor for use with a mouse, touchpad, or other?

    I don't see the problem, except that in this instance, it's one that you decided to have. It's not unintuitive or lacking in functionality, it's just different. You can say that about every different Linux distro too, except that the ones in Windows 10 you can use it with a mouse/pointing device and for touch.
     
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  11. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    It makes it poor in relation to effective utilization of precious screen real estate, it's bad enough we have a massive ribbon interface along the top of the screen to deal with - At least most of that can be hidden. Fact is, I don't like it and many others feel the same way. If you like it, good for you, lets move on.

    The common theme in this thread is that many are sick of Microsoft's pointless 'enhancements' and want something more along the lines of Windows 7 with it's desktop UI.
     
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  12. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Hey, this is a Windows 10 thread so there is nothing to move on from. Fact is, most could not care less just so long as everything is where they placed it before. Thir files and icons, specifically.

    If we were to switch them to Linux, without training, they would be lost. Windows 10 has its issues but please, so does Linux and so do Mac's.

    The only OSs that I loved were Os/2 Warp 3 with Object Desktop and Amiga OS 2.04. And I have been doing Linux since Slackware in 1997.
     
  13. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    Good for you, who lit your fuse?
     
  14. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Honestly I don't see it as much different these days. I can use anything from 7 to 10 fluidly, and 10 is as close to 7 as you can get in general use. With respect to the control panel, most users really should have to worry about it, and it's intuitive enough. I don't see it as a point to quibble about. It's just different, but it works.

    Stuff I'd actually complain about are the included games and the inability to excise stuff. I wish I could pay for LTSC with the Pro feature set and be able to choose the stuff beyond the OS that gets installed.

    I'd like to see the control panel transition complete, and I'd like to see ReFS fully implemented.
     
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  15. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Ohhh, nice well thought out response. :D Amiga 4 Life!
     
  16. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    Under Add remove Programs I can see 40 software entries, under 'Apps' & Features I can see 16 'App' entries - Meaning I can see ~80% less information on the screen without scrolling! That doesn't make for a practical desktop UI improvement by any means whatsoever.

    ReFS will never be implemented fully as there's no way MS will overtake Linux on big iron in the server space. Hell, Microsoft themselves make more money out of cloud based services running Linux than Windows these days.
     
  17. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Now you are reaching. Hey I could see more on a 4k display at 100% scalding.
     
  18. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yeah, OK "I'm reaching". :rolleyes:
     
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  19. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    ...and you want to compare this to Linux package managers?

    My recent foray into Ubuntu (still installed!) was frustrating because there are three separate package UIs, and they have different stuff!

    [and yes, I found my way around, but holy fuck talk about fragmentation...]
     
  20. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    I love Linux package managers, under terminal I can see even more of my installed software on the screen at once in a list. Under both Windows and MacOS there is more than one way to install/run software..

    EDIT: In terminal under Linux I can list 60% more packages on the screen at once than Add/Remove Programs under Windows to be exact!
     
  21. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    So why complain? There are many different ways to do this. You just contradicted your own point.

    And I'm sure there's a way to use Powershell to do a list of installed software as well...
     
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  22. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    So, how soon before we start counting mouse clicks for a given task? :D As a support guy, as long as I can help, I am happy.
     
  23. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    Right, so you're arguing that a touch UI is an improvement, then you go on to state that a shell window is a possible workaround for the issues created by adopting a touch interface under a desktop OS?! I'm sticking to my argument, you're the one contradicting yourself.
     
  24. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    Not interested. This comment is pointless.
     
  25. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Well, the Linux subforum is still there, enjoy.

    He said nothing of the sort but I guess you will see what you will see.
     
  26. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    Not really interested. I can't state why based on past experiences with doing so. But I'm in no way interested in discussing anything with you.
     
  27. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Bye.
     
  28. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    I have no problem discussing points with others in this thread.
     
  29. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    *Shrug* Windows is where it is at but gratefully I can mess around with whatever I like. For instance, the Windows 7 Control panel icon view stinks but, it is there and I can do a search if need be, making it easier.
     
  30. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You made the claim about the shell- Windows has one too.

    You make the claim about the touch UI- well, it's certainly touch friendly, and that doesn't make it pointer unfriendly. You don't like it being touch friendly. Okay?

    You're not claiming that it doesn't work, just that you don't like it. I'm not arguing that you should, but that complaints remain largely with respect to aesthetics, and that the impact of liking or disliking it is very minimal because it's simply not needed during regular use that often.
     
  31. FlawleZ

    FlawleZ Gawd

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    Last time I tried standard windows 10 pro, I would uninstall candy crush and then it would update within 24 hours and return. I kid you not I did this about 15 times before I just uninstalled and reinstalled. It did it again. Got so fed up with MS pushing crap I didnt want even with updates turned off I just installed LTSB and havent looked back. The MS store system is garbage and the force fed updates lack of real control is a real shame in the consumer versions of Win 10.
     
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  32. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Well, it's not so much of a shame as that there's not a 'way out'. Realistically speaking, forced updates are a boon for overall network security, and for internet security. It just sucks that there's not a method for 'getting out' of it and say just running a version of LTSC.
     
  33. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'm claiming that many don't like it because in a desktop environment, it's far from ideal.

    Windows 10 being both a touch and a desktop OS is not a selling point many are interested in. It's a marketing perspective that only Microsoft are interested in - They don't care what you, the user, thinks anymore.
     
  34. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Many or only? Reality is, it works, and people have better things to do. Again, you can dislike it, but it has very little impact on the end user.

    This isn't exclusive to Microsoft- Apple is rather famous for this. They have more desktop users than GNU/Linux. It'd be fair to say that most broad developers have what they want to do as a higher priority than what users want; fading to irrelevance isn't desirable, even if your product is free, thus developers come up with their own ideas to push their products forward.

    Beyond that- Windows might be the only OS on the market that's equally at home and powerful in both pointer-based desktop systems and touch-based tablets, including devices that do both.
     
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  35. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    The popularity of Windows/Apple has everything to do with the fact that it's installed by default on the product you buy, it has nothing to do with either being a great OS. Personally, I think the idea of Windows being a tablet/desktop OS is a compromise at best, even Apple know better than to mix both into one and I think it's quite obvious that many do not like the direction Microsoft are headed.
     
  36. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    And yet both remain great OSs ;)

    Apple is headed that way now, and Microsoft has been successful doing it with their Surface hybrids.

    In reality the main compromise is if the ecosystem isn't fluid between the two, and Windows 10 as a base is already very good at it. Now it's up to the applications.

    In contrast, GNU/Linux hasn't really even started.

    I think it should be obvious that this is true no matter what they do. Every enterprise faces this, and given that their valuation just eclipsed Apple's, they seem to be doing just fine.
     
  37. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    [Looks at Mac and Windows machines here, considers issues...]

    Well, that's vastly a matter of opinion.

    Microsoft are manipulating figures to incorporate what constitutes a 'laptop' as a '2 in 1' in an attempt to try and incorrectly claim that they're successful in the mobile marketplace. Naturally, anything with an attached keyboard is not a mobile device. So Microsoft are not successful in the mobile marketplace at all, in fact they're downright hopeless.

    As to what Apple plan on doing with their desktop OS? I think the chances of Windows 10 becoming a subscription model with a central software store and no more Win32 is a more likely scenario than Apple incorperating both mobile and desktop under the one OS. What I think Apple will do is drop their desktop line entirely.

    Well of course they are, they've realized there's more money to be made out of Linux than Windows. ;)
     
  38. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Proof for the figure manipulation?

    Also, a 2 in 1 is a laptop, that turns into a tablet.

    This is silly. You may have a point, but as it stands it is very poorly made.

    Google owns the 'mobile marketplace', followed by Apple. Microsoft's attempt was reportedly very good but was a hard sell; of course, anything not Android or Apple is a hard sell in that market, with the hardware and software fairly acutely linked. It's also outside the scope of what we're talking about here, unless you want to continue pretending that the Windows 10 tablet UI features are for phones when Microsoft had an entirely separate front end for phones instead.
     
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  39. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    You just provided the proof.

    A 360 degree hinge with an attached keyboard does not equal a mobile device. It's a laptop with a touch screen most won't use and a keyboard with a 360 degree hinge. :D

    Silly?! Silly is the person that honestly buys the kool aid that a laptop is a mobile device because it has an attached keyboard with a 360 degree hinge! :D

    Not too sure I ever stated otherwise? I'm fairly certain that yourself, as the individual that thinks attached keyboard with 360 degree hinge is a tablet is the one trying to state otherwise.
     
  40. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    Anyway, this thread is getting too far off course now. Lap up the kool aid, sounds like you love it! :D