Will the R580 be better than G71...or at least AS GOOD??

StalkerZER0

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
1,207
I need to know.
It can go either or two ways.....ok maybe three. Either the R580 will be better than the nvidia G71 (which would be interesting) or the nvidia G71 which comes out a bit later will be better. And there could be the possibility that both cards based on those chips would be close enough to say that they are the same.

So, which is it? Does anybody have any idea?
And on a side note...if ATI turns out to be better....would its crossfire solution work on my a8n-sli motherboard??? :confused:
 

digitalx0

Gawd
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
801
I don't think anybody can legitimately answer your question, cause we just don't know anything.
 

Dan_D

Extremely [H]
Joined
Feb 9, 2002
Messages
60,881
digitalx0 said:
I don't think anybody can legitimately answer your question, cause we just don't know anything.

Good point. There is no way to know right now about a piece of hardware that isn't on the market, and has no official published information confirming the specs. Any of the hardware sites that may or may not have this hardware would be under NDA right now. So only time will tell.
 

contaminant

Limp Gawd
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
336
No way of knowing. But from looking at the past, no company has ever taking a hugely significant lead. Both high ends based off of the new cores may be pretty close.
 

CmaN3

Limp Gawd
Joined
Aug 5, 2004
Messages
368
Comparing the cards, no one knows. But as for it crossfire working on your SLI mobo, no it will not.
 

RoffleCopter

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Oct 8, 2005
Messages
1,912
You'll just have to wait until they're out til you can compare....otherwise turn on your thinking caps! :p
 

StalkerZER0

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
1,207
CmaN3 said:
Comparing the cards, no one knows. But as for it crossfire working on your SLI mobo, no it will not.

Woh! Why wouldn't ati's crossfire work on the a8n-sli mobo? It just needs two SLI slots and thats it right? They connect to each other using cables....it doens't need sli.....right? :(
 

R1ckCa1n

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jul 22, 2004
Messages
4,355
StalkerZER0 said:
Woh! Why wouldn't ati's crossfire work on the a8n-sli mobo? It just needs two SLI slots and thats it right? They connect to each other using cables....it doens't need sli.....right? :(
And a small thing called a crossfire chipset. Just as Nvidia cards require a NF4 chipset, the X1000 series require a crossfire chipset (ie RD480/RD580).
 

StalkerZER0

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
1,207
R1ckCa1n said:
And a small thing called a crossfire chipset. Just as Nvidia cards require a NF4 chipset, the X1000 series require a crossfire chipset (ie RD480/RD580).
Well good gawd! What mobos even have the chipset? Best mobo in my opinion is the a8n-sli mobo by asus. And thats nforce4. Good grief ATI really dropped the ball by being late to market with the latest generation of stuff.
 

CmaN3

Limp Gawd
Joined
Aug 5, 2004
Messages
368
Why on earth would ATI want to let you use thier cards on their biggest and basically only competitors chipsets. ANd the same for Nvidia, why would they want to let you use crossfire on their chipset. Also, they both work differently, so even if they wanted to, i dont think they could work on the same chipset.

As for a crossfire mobo, I know DFI has one out, but I dont know who else does. I dont pay much attention because i dont have the cash for crossfire.
 

R1ckCa1n

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jul 22, 2004
Messages
4,355
StalkerZER0 said:
Well good gawd! What mobos even have the chipset? Best mobo in my opinion is the a8n-sli mobo by asus. And thats nforce4. Good grief ATI really dropped the ball by being late to market with the latest generation of stuff.
DFI, Asus, Saphire, Abit, ECS all make boards based on the RD480 which supports Crossfire.

Kinda hard to compare the Crossfire to SLI chipsets as Crossfire has been out for maybe three months to SLI's two plus years.
 

mrbigshot

Gawd
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Messages
865
CmaN3 said:
Why on earth would ATI want to let you use thier cards on their biggest and basically only competitors chipsets. ANd the same for Nvidia, why would they want to let you use crossfire on their chipset. Also, they both work differently, so even if they wanted to, i dont think they could work on the same chipset.

As for a crossfire mobo, I know DFI has one out, but I dont know who else does. I dont pay much attention because i dont have the cash for crossfire.

sli and crossfire can and have been done on the same chipset. intels 955 chipset allowed both to work untill nvidia got wind of it and squashed it in the next driver release. if you want to use early sli drivers and a 6600 or 6800 sli it can be done, all revisions of crossfire work currently. why both together wont see the light of day no one knows. we do no intel was very agressive with there 975 chipset and had both working, than things went south with nvidia and it didnt happen. mabey it was because of money? more than likley they did not like the idea of intell not having to purchase the craptastic nvidia northbridge chipset to use sli, at even $45 a crack thats a lot of money to be missing out on.
 

Humble_Magii

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Messages
308
I think both cards are going to be about the same.

The big question is who will actually deliver? Both? We win finally?

"My" big question is when will ATi make crossfire not suck?

The intel boards out make me hope but the master card and dongle must go everyone please take a moment and say a prayer with me so that we may enjoy or purchase an xfire board that doesn't stink.

Please I beg you!

Amen
 

Trimlock

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Sep 23, 2005
Messages
15,228
Well good gawd! What mobos even have the chipset? Best mobo in my opinion is the a8n-sli mobo by asus. And thats nforce4. Good grief ATI really dropped the ball by being late to market with the latest generation of stuff.

even by being late they produced a chipset that does just as awsome, the RD480 is a completely badass mobo, there really is no way you can trash it

"My" big question is when will ATi make crossfire not suck?

as it stands, it doesn't suck right now, the platform itself works great, and theres very few bugs/issues with it, which is very suprising to see, the only downside to it, is us consumers have to wait for the manufacturer to put a by product of the same product so we can use them in tadem, the master card in my opinion doesn't make the platform bad, just bad for production

edit: looking forward to the RD580 more so then the X1900, with all the rumors flying around it, it should be one sweet chipset
 

Humble_Magii

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Messages
308
Trimlock said:
even by being late they produced a chipset that does just as awsome, the RD480 is a completely badass mobo, there really is no way you can trash it



as it stands, it doesn't suck right now, the platform itself works great, and theres very few bugs/issues with it, which is very suprising to see, the only downside to it, is us consumers have to wait for the manufacturer to put a by product of the same product so we can use them in tadem, the master card in my opinion doesn't make the platform bad, just bad for production

edit: looking forward to the RD580 more so then the X1900, with all the rumors flying around it, it should be one sweet chipset

Trim I am sorry that you feel different but we will settle on the we don't agree with each other solution.

Master cards make the platform not viable at all. You need a special card to run it? Costs more usually and as in the case of the XL you need an xt? Sounds like a bad thing and is one too. The chipsets aren't bad and perform well enough however they do have issues.

They aren't selling for a reason trim and it's because the xfire system as a whole isn't good next to SLi. It's actually horrible when compared.

It might perform well once you get all the ducks in a row but having the ducks in the row is more expensive and more difficult than say a SLi solution.

So here's to hoping ATI can fix up the next chipset maybe drop the mastercard thing and sell some enthusiast mobos hate to have another Nvidia only year :(.
 

Trimlock

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Sep 23, 2005
Messages
15,228
Master cards make the platform not viable at all. You need a special card to run it? Costs more usually and as in the case of the XL you need an xt? Sounds like a bad thing and is one too. The chipsets aren't bad and perform well enough however they do have issues.

They aren't selling for a reason trim and it's because the xfire system as a whole isn't good next to SLi. It's actually horrible when compared.

It might perform well once you get all the ducks in a row but having the ducks in the row is more expensive and more difficult than say a SLi solution.

i understand where you are coming from, to me having the master card isn't at all a bad solution for us, but as far as production? it sucks, for SLI all you need to do is purchase 2 cards the mobo, with crossfire, you need to do the same but one has be the "master card" if they drop this, which it looks like they can then i'd say there wouldn't be any gripes (and no more dongle i believe) but i'm not holding my breath on the X1900 to solve this solution

the XL, which is a great great card all by itself, still needs a CF counterpart, i'm still trying to justify just why ATI decided to negate that product as far as a dual GPU solution is involved - it could be them realizing its a damn head ache to keep two seperate products (which are vurtually the same) out on the store shelves, unsure but that would take it back to production problems

anyways, i'm not really one to talk since i'm not really going to go for a dual GPU solution till the DX10 cards come out, looking in from the outside and not having to bother purchasing these things i really can't have a gripe, but it would be nice to see the mastercard solution go

and since when weren't they selling? hasn't newegg and zipzoomfly all been having a hard time keeping them in stock?
 

Humble_Magii

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Messages
308
I don't know maybe we need a poll showing how many have sli and xfire?

:)

No seriously everyone I know personally has sli and anyone with ATI cards has one card. None are interested in ATI xfire.

Alot of 9800's were and are around at work other than that it's all nvidia with the 7800GT being the popular sli and a ton of 6800GTs as well.
 

SSgtTwitch

n00b
Joined
Aug 18, 2005
Messages
23
For myself looking at going dual gpu in the near future (next month), I've decided that xfire/sli is more of a tandom upgrade path for my needs than buying both at once, and im hopping that the r600 will benefit from using an r580 master card etc etc. so my upgrade order will be master/slave/master/slave.
although looking at current trends it seems that AMD needs to get on the ball in the cpu arena as these games are becoming more bound on that side of the house.
( and im trying my best to stay ATI for this as the x1800/ and hopfully 1900 seem to provide similar performance and a more competitive price point with some bells and whistles I like. but having some mother board difficulties which hopefully sb580 fixes).
anyway look for a complete worklog coming to a hardforum near you.
 

$BangforThe$

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
1,672
SSgtTwitch said:
For myself looking at going dual gpu in the near future (next month), I've decided that xfire/sli is more of a tandom upgrade path for my needs than buying both at once, and im hopping that the r600 will benefit from using an r580 master card etc etc. so my upgrade order will be master/slave/master/slave.
although looking at current trends it seems that AMD needs to get on the ball in the cpu arena as these games are becoming more bound on that side of the house.
( and im trying my best to stay ATI for this as the x1800/ and hopfully 1900 seem to provide similar performance and a more competitive price point with some bells and whistles I like. but having some mother board difficulties which hopefully sb580 fixes).
anyway look for a complete worklog coming to a hardforum near you.

The R600 is DX10 the R580 is Dx9 don't buy a r580 master card if thats what your thinking.
 

Soymilk

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
1,262
for the crossfire naysayers, keep in mind that crossfire just came out recently. sli was shit when it first came out too, but now its had time to work its way in. for now, yes, sli shits on crossfire, but when crossfire has been out for as long as sli has now and ati has had time to iron out all the chinks, i think they'll be pretty much equal.
 

SSgtTwitch

n00b
Joined
Aug 18, 2005
Messages
23
$BangforThe$ said:
The R600 is DX10 the R580 is Dx9 don't buy a r580 master card if thats what your thinking.

I understand the differences the example I gave was my approach to crossfire/sli not the end all plan. and all this gets thrown out the window if the new ati chipset (sb580 i think) gets delayed or asus doesnt make the needed adjustments to the Vcore bios options on the mvp.( may still go crossfire with the dfi but I'm concerned over the chipsets reviews)
 

Humble_Magii

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Messages
308
Soymilk said:
for the crossfire naysayers, keep in mind that crossfire just came out recently. sli was shit when it first came out too, but now its had time to work its way in. for now, yes, sli shits on crossfire, but when crossfire has been out for as long as sli has now and ati has had time to iron out all the chinks, i think they'll be pretty much equal.

Something like that applies when they are released at the same time it's not anyones fault but theirs for releasing something years after their competitor and then saying hey it just came out years later and a dollar short let's let them make an inferior product and praise them.

They knew and know how SLi works and they didn't change anything it's their problem not mine and they don't get the benefit of my pity or hey better luck next time.

Nvidia doesn't get it noone does why would anyone do that for ATI?
 

ManicOne

Gawd
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
731
So Magii do you therefore think that nVidia will always be ahead of ATI? Do you honestly have no company bias?
 

Soymilk

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
1,262
Humble_Magii said:
Something like that applies when they are released at the same time it's not anyones fault but theirs for releasing something years after their competitor and then saying hey it just came out years later and a dollar short let's let them make an inferior product and praise them.
um, no, thats not what im saying at all. let me break it down into steps for you.

1) crossfire sucks right now. agree? yes, you probably do.

2) sli ALSO sucked when it was first released, as much if not more as crossfire does right now. agree? yes, you do. if you have any arguments, slap yourself, cuz it sucked. im talking about then, not now.

3) *now* sli is pretty good after having had time to work out the problems. agree? yes.

so, from this we can conclude that given time, crossfire will be as good as sli, give or take some performance %age. im not saying "ooh let's pity them cuz they released late", nor am i praising them for making an inferior product. im saying that by using nvidia and sli as an example, crossfire will mature. for now, though, crossfire sucks. if you cant agree with im saying, well... ill leave that out of this cuz i dont want to get banned.
 

Humble_Magii

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Messages
308
ManicOne said:
So Magii do you therefore think that nVidia will always be ahead of ATI? Do you honestly have no company bias?

Why would Nvidia always be ahead of ATI? History already proves this wrong......

Everyone has bias none are excluded from this there is some type of bias in everyone. The enthusiast hobby or market has bias just like any other and in my case I would have to say that mine is more towards what I own already sort of like defending your children :).

I defend my all in wonder ati cards in some cases as I would my nvidia cards but I am not blind to problems and other things.

Honestly I don't think anyone that posts here or even reviewers have no bias because they can profit from it and not only that but it's human.
 

Humble_Magii

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Messages
308
Soymilk said:
um, no, thats not what im saying at all. let me break it down into steps for you.

1) crossfire sucks right now. agree? yes, you probably do.

2) sli ALSO sucked when it was first released, as much if not more as crossfire does right now. agree? yes, you do. if you have any arguments, slap yourself, cuz it sucked. im talking about then, not now.

3) *now* sli is pretty good after having had time to work out the problems. agree? yes.

so, from this we can conclude that given time, crossfire will be as good as sli, give or take some performance %age. im not saying "ooh let's pity them cuz they released late", nor am i praising them for making an inferior product. im saying that by using nvidia and sli as an example, crossfire will mature. for now, though, crossfire sucks. if you cant agree with im saying, well... ill leave that out of this cuz i dont want to get banned.

Let me exlain what I mean more bluntly SLI had issues and sucked at the beginning and so does crossfire but again crossfire has had time to learn fromt he mistakes of SLI and they didn't take advantage of it or couldn't which is their problem.

We are consumers we pay money for the product and the product is lacking so it makes no sense to buy it till they either discontinue it or make it better. Simple as that.

I didn't buy a 5 series nvidia card it was inferior my gf4 ti 4600's worked fine for a LONNNg time and my AIW card doesn't need an upgrade because it's pretty much the same chip that is on the x1800xl aiw now.

If I upgraded during the 5 6 series I would probably own two more ati cards simple.
 

Soymilk

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
1,262
Humble_Magii said:
Let me exlain what I mean more bluntly SLI had issues and sucked at the beginning and so does crossfire but again crossfire has had time to learn fromt he mistakes of SLI and they didn't take advantage of it or couldn't which is their problem.

We are consumers we pay money for the product and the product is lacking so it makes no sense to buy it till they either discontinue it or make it better. Simple as that.

the only way to really "learn" from sli's mistakes would be to have the exact same setup as they do, which would involve getting sued for copyright infringement or something like that.

im not saying to buy crossfire. im saying it will get better, but for now it still sucks so dont buy it.
 

robberbaron

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Sep 6, 2004
Messages
6,101
After owning both a 7800GTX and an X1900XT, I know that the G71 will have infinately better drivers.

That aside, the other posts above me sum it up well: we dont know yet.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2000
Messages
893
I also own a 7800GTX and X1900XT, except for compatibility with some old games I would say ATi's windows drivers are on par or better. nVidia has a bunch of bugs that seem to go unfixed for ages like the java lockup bug. And Image Quality wise ATi wins hands down.
 

PRIME1

2[H]4U
Joined
Feb 4, 2004
Messages
3,942
CmaN3 said:
Why on earth would ATI want to let you use thier cards on their biggest and basically only competitors chipsets.
The funny thing is most ATI crossfire motherboards have a ULi southbridge chipset and NVIDIA owns ULi.
:D
 

BBA

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 25, 2003
Messages
5,382
Particleman said:
I also own a 7800GTX and X1900XT, except for compatibility with some old games I would say ATi's windows drivers are on par or better. nVidia has a bunch of bugs that seem to go unfixed for ages like the java lockup bug. And Image Quality wise ATi wins hands down.


Except that with an ATi X1900, just try to edit a doom3 or quake 4 map with the ATi card. You will get one of these:

D3Edit.jpg


You can reproduce by first opening one of the .pak files with winzip/rar, etc... and finding a .map file in the maps folder (you may have to open a few .pak files to find one)

Now open D3 or Q4 and type 'Editor' in the console.
When the editor opens, open the map file, hit F3 and F4 (to render) and you will get the error.

I know it happens on X1900 cards, but I have only tested it on dual core/cpu machines.
 

Emission

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Dec 6, 2005
Messages
4,420
Well, if it hasnt been announced, the RD580 has already been tested. It was by a couple of guys sponsored by ATi, in an attempt to break the current 3DMark05 record. They used a couple of X1900XTX's , and they did break the record. Although imo, the G71 will cream ATi in the performance segment, not to mention the marketing segment. For those of you that dont know, NV is going to sell its 7800GTX's ( I think even the 512's ) for $299, making a lot of room for its successor, 7900. Although I believe the 7900 is also going to be marketed at a lower price, to make room for the G71, because the 7900 is just a G70 clocked to 650MHz. I hear the max you can get out of these cards is 720MHz :eek: , so the G71 is most likely going to be a force that cant be stopped by anything ATi can throw together.

My $0.02
 

TruthInRuin

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jan 14, 2004
Messages
286
Emission said:
Well, if it hasnt been announced, the RD580 has already been tested. It was by a couple of guys sponsored by ATi, in an attempt to break the current 3DMark05 record. They used a couple of X1900XTX's , and they did break the record. Although imo, the G71 will cream ATi in the performance segment, not to mention the marketing segment. For those of you that dont know, NV is going to sell its 7800GTX's ( I think even the 512's ) for $299, making a lot of room for its successor, 7900. Although I believe the 7900 is also going to be marketed at a lower price, to make room for the G71, because the 7900 is just a G70 clocked to 650MHz. I hear the max you can get out of these cards is 720MHz :eek: , so the G71 is most likely going to be a force that cant be stopped by anything ATi can throw together.

My $0.02

From most of the rumors there are no additional pipelines or any other features added to G71, so a 100Mhz (550 from GTX512) increase in clock speed isnt going to do to much for performance.
 
Top