WikiLeaks Volunteer Was a Paid Informant for the FBI

But does that make it right and shouldn't we try and do something about it or at least be upset about it as citizens?

"this has been going on for a long time so I don't care even if it is bad" doesn't sound so rational or reasonable IMO.

I don't think gathering info from Wikileaks is illegal here. If it is where Wikileaks is based, then someone should take action. Otherwise, I actually don't see the problem. Spying is going to happen.
 
Enough with this bs. As if US pillaging other countries is something noble.

I'd take "Islamic radicals" over US military thugs any day of the week. Scumbags.

Oh please. You're not getting choice in the matter.

I don't care what nationality you are, or what country you're in, in 2013 you are a target. You have zero say in the matter, and they don't give a shit about your politics, nationality, religion, age, income, or work status.

Chinese Tourist in Pakistan? BAM!!!

German Teens at a German Dance Club? BAM!!!

Daycare worker in New York? BAM!!

People going to work in Spain? BAM!!!

People shopping in Bagdad? BAM!!!

Retired folk in Argentina? BAM!!!

Athletes in Munich? BAM!!!

Cruise line passengers in the ocean? BAM!!!

Tourists in the Phillipines? BAM!!!

Now, you can easily avoid death by US Military Death Squads. Go to Germany, Spain, England, Australia, Argentina, etc, etc, etc, etc.

We are far too lazy to kill random people globally. So 99% of the world isn't being bombed into submission.
 
The legality of the FBI's actions here are not what I'm questioning since that is a whole other can of worms.

I'm saying the spying they're doing is for wrong reasons and should not be allowed because it is being done for political reasons and to cover up mistakes and/or criminal actions by our government.

Spying is going to happen.
You can justify all sorts of horrible things with this line of "reasoning" and it isn't even a moral argument either. Look, just look at how horrible you can be and still be justified by thinking this way:

Rape is going to happen.
Murder is going to happen.
Political corruption is going to happen.
etc. etc. etc.
 
The legality of the FBI's actions here are not what I'm questioning since that is a whole other can of worms.

I'm saying the spying they're doing is for wrong reasons and should not be allowed because it is being done for political reasons and to cover up mistakes and/or criminal actions by our government.


You can justify all sorts of horrible things with this line of "reasoning" and it isn't even a moral argument either. Look, just look at how horrible you can be and still be justified by thinking this way:




etc. etc. etc.

The article is from Wired, there isn't any real information in it. It could be that the FBI was trying to figure out if the information released by Manning through Assange was done so without coercion. It could be that they were trying to cover up illegal acts done by our government (which would not be justified), but I didn't jump to that conclusion from the information presented.

The FBI has every right to trade money for information, that's what they do. Now, the real question is, "why?". Was it justifiable?
 
It could be...
If you want to engage in fantasy and think up reasons as to why the FBI could be legally justified in trying to infiltrate wikileaks for totes legit reasons I'm sure you can imagine a set of circumstances that would work.

I'm also sure you could do it for at least several pages of posts...but how likely or even vaguely correct would any of those fantasies be? And why would or should anyone care?

The FBI has every right to trade money for information, that's what they do.
That wasn't in question or even commented on either.

Now, the real question is, "why?". Was it justifiable?
You were already given the why. If you're looking for a smoking gun public report by the FBI saying, "yea we're spying on these guys cuz' they keep digging up dirt on government fuck ups and we want to suppress that pronto" you will always be disappointed and are maybe hopelessly naive to boot. The only way that sort of information would get out would be via whistleblowers and the media outlets...hey sorta kinda like Wikileaks!!

But really interesting to me is your why: "Spying is going to happen." What we don't have is your justification of that statement, moral or otherwise, and I really would like to hear it.
 
I'm going to venture a guess that Assange has sold some of the information.

The FBI knows what Private Numbnuts sent.

The FBI has no juristiction over Assange unless he's an enemy agent working with US citizens.
 
That still doesn't make it reasonable for the FBI to spy on Wikileaks soooo maybe I'm missing your point?
 
If you want to engage in fantasy and think up reasons as to why the FBI could be legally justified in trying to infiltrate wikileaks for totes legit reasons I'm sure you can imagine a set of circumstances that would work.

I'm also sure you could do it for at least several pages of posts...but how likely or even vaguely correct would any of those fantasies be? And why would or should anyone care?


That wasn't in question or even commented on either.


You were already given the why. If you're looking for a smoking gun public report by the FBI saying, "yea we're spying on these guys cuz' they keep digging up dirt on government fuck ups and we want to suppress that pronto" you will always be disappointed and are maybe hopelessly naive to boot. The only way that sort of information would get out would be via whistleblowers and the media outlets...hey sorta kinda like Wikileaks!!

But really interesting to me is your why: "Spying is going to happen." What we don't have is your justification of that statement, moral or otherwise, and I really would like to hear it.

All I got was your opinion, nothing based on fact. You gave me the "why" that you believe to be true. My fantasy, that they were looking for information that would lead to the arrest and conviction of Assange for espionage, is probably spot on. If they had found such information, that he coerced Manning into giving up information, he would be in jail or dead.

Spying is going to happen because spying is going to happen, regardless of the government we have, regardless of the control over it we have, and regardless of morality. If you really think a corrupt government can keep itself in power without spying, I don't know what to tell you. The FBI mostly exists to protect its own interests.

Anyway, just like you strawmanned earlier; rape is going to happen.
 
If they have seen Private Wingnut data in the hands of foreign agents, and it wasn't on the Wikileak site, they need to investigate Assange like any other spy working through US citizens.
 
If they have seen Private Wingnut data in the hands of foreign agents, and it wasn't on the Wikileak site, they need to investigate Assange like any other spy working through US citizens.

Correct. This was standard operating procedure. Were they up to other things, possibly nefarious? Maybe. Historically speaking, the CIA tends to be a lot nastier than the FBI, though.
 
I think there is a major difference between exposing the truth and committing espionage and the US government is trying to blur that line to justify its overly aggressive approach in persecuting people for the prior. In the end our government has already shown that they will flat out spy on reporters they think may be reporting on their crimes so this is no shocker.

You have to admire how we got here, these same federal agencies spent decades interfering in foreign countries affairs with puppet dictators which fueled anti-American fervor so now they have to curtail our freedoms and rights to protect us from the mess that they caused.
 
All I got was your opinion, nothing based on fact.
So the facts why the FBI spied on Wikileaks will likely never be known outside of a whistle blower giving it up and the media reporting on it but we do know what Wikileaks does and why and even how. They were actually quite public about most of it, so that shoots down your idea of coercion right off the bat.

Spying is going to happen because spying is going to happen, regardless of the government we have, regardless of the control over it we have, and regardless of morality. If you really think a corrupt government can keep itself in power without spying, I don't know what to tell you. The FBI mostly exists to protect its own interests.
See this is all stuff that could be fixed if enough people were willing to vote in a consistent and unified manner for at least a few political terms which seems to make your "spying happens" thinking completely incorrect.

Anyway, just like you strawmanned earlier; rape is going to happen.
Except that isn't a strawman since that is literally the exact logic you used with the opening world/phrase changed. There is almost _nothing_ you can't justify with that statement which makes it bad logic which was the point. That you're using it to handwave away if not flat out justify spying on a media outlet for revealing fuck ups by the government is what makes you horrible and the comparison to rape perfectly valid.
 
Assange was/is having money issues.

He has some used stuff that was given to him that has resale value.

Who can blame him for selling out?
 
So the facts why the FBI spied on Wikileaks will likely never be known outside of a whistle blower giving it up and the media reporting on it but we do know what Wikileaks does and why and even how. They were actually quite public about most of it, so that shoots down your idea of coercion right off the bat.


See this is all stuff that could be fixed if enough people were willing to vote in a consistent and unified manner for at least a few political terms which seems to make your "spying happens" thinking completely incorrect.


Except that isn't a strawman since that is literally the exact logic you used with the opening world/phrase changed. There is almost _nothing_ you can't justify with that statement which makes it bad logic which was the point. That you're using it to handwave away if not flat out justify spying on a media outlet for revealing fuck ups by the government is what makes you horrible and the comparison to rape perfectly valid.


Of course I don't think any coercion was used to get the information, and I don't really have a problem with it being leaked in the first place. That's not the point. The FBI has to dig to make sure.

Voting will not change much in how the FBI operates. Even my boys Ron Paul and Gary Johnson wouldn't have much impact. The FBI would just do things without their knowledge.

I tried to justify nothing. This is why you were strawmanning. I'm one of the guys who still thinks the FBI should never have been formed. I'm just being realistic about where we are currently as a country. However, I really don't have a problem with them spying on news outlets in general. What they do while they are spying might be something I have a problem with, but without knowing exactly what happened, it's not somethign I can say with 100% certainty. Does that mean I think they can (or rather, should) get away with whatever they want to do? Nope.
 
Oh please. You're not getting choice in the matter.

I don't care what nationality you are, or what country you're in, in 2013 you are a target. You have zero say in the matter, and they don't give a shit about your politics, nationality, religion, age, income, or work status.

Chinese Tourist in Pakistan? BAM!!!

German Teens at a German Dance Club? BAM!!!

Daycare worker in New York? BAM!!

People going to work in Spain? BAM!!!

People shopping in Bagdad? BAM!!!

Retired folk in Argentina? BAM!!!

Athletes in Munich? BAM!!!

Cruise line passengers in the ocean? BAM!!!

Tourists in the Phillipines? BAM!!!

Now, you can easily avoid death by US Military Death Squads. Go to Germany, Spain, England, Australia, Argentina, etc, etc, etc, etc.

We are far too lazy to kill random people globally. So 99% of the world isn't being bombed into submission.

I see that your opinions on these matters are satirical in nature. Couldn't tell until now. Excuse me.
 
I see that your opinions on these matters are satirical in nature. Couldn't tell until now. Excuse me.

You remember all those right?

There have been over a thousand of those attacks that killed civilians in every continent but Antarctica. Way over 100 countries.

Really, throwing a cripple off a cruise liner? Bunch of pussies.
 
The FBI has to dig to make sure.
No they don't. There are tons of instances where the FBI simply chooses not to enforce the law or even over steps their authority. A good example of one would be white collar bank fraud.

Voting will not change much in how the FBI operates.
The people that run these organizations are ultimately chosen and obey the politicians. This is one of those facts that aren't up for debate. An argument that some of the people in these organizations could conceivably still do things illegally behind even a ethical politicians' back and so are uncontrollable is essentially an argument for anarchy not Libertarianism FYI.

I tried to justify nothing.
Even if you have other ethical/religious/political/whatever beliefs about how things should or shouldn't be none of that had anything to do with the question at hand and were not even referred to and so are not relevant to the discussion. Bringing them up in the manner you have is at best an attempt to shift the goal posts of the discussion around to your liking. Which is just plain silly especially if you're trying to be a realist who deals with the world the way it is and not as it should be in your ideals/fantasy land.

In that real world we have the FBI spying for political ass covering purposes and your response has been "spying happens" and/or to engage in fantasy why it might maybe be reasonable for the FBI to spy on Wikileaks despite also having at least some Libertarian leanings and claiming to be anti-FBI anyways. You're not very consistent are you?

This is why you were strawmanning.
See you said a thing there but didn't actually do anything to back it up. Not with reasoning or evidence. Just "nope you're strawmanning and oh BTW here are some of my various political views/beliefs which have nothing to do with anything here at all and bla bla bla".
 
No they don't. There are tons of instances where the FBI simply chooses not to enforce the law or even over steps their authority. A good example of one would be white collar bank fraud.


The people that run these organizations are ultimately chosen and obey the politicians. This is one of those facts that aren't up for debate. An argument that some of the people in these organizations could conceivably still do things illegally behind even a ethical politicians' back and so are uncontrollable is essentially an argument for anarchy not Libertarianism FYI.


Even if you have other ethical/religious/political/whatever beliefs about how things should or shouldn't be none of that had anything to do with the question at hand and were not even referred to and so are not relevant to the discussion. Bringing them up in the manner you have is at best an attempt to shift the goal posts of the discussion around to your liking. Which is just plain silly especially if you're trying to be a realist who deals with the world the way it is and not as it should be in your ideals/fantasy land.

In that real world we have the FBI spying for political ass covering purposes and your response has been "spying happens" and/or to engage in fantasy why it might maybe be reasonable for the FBI to spy on Wikileaks despite also having at least some Libertarian leanings and claiming to be anti-FBI anyways. You're not very consistent are you?


See you said a thing there but didn't actually do anything to back it up. Not with reasoning or evidence. Just "nope you're strawmanning and oh BTW here are some of my various political views/beliefs which have nothing to do with anything here at all and bla bla bla".

I love the fact that you stand up for what you believe in, because TBH, I feel the same way. The truth is that the world doesn't really work that way. Politics is money and money is politics. We can do our best to combat corruption, but corruption is what drives change and revolution. We DO need to fight against it, but to eradicate corruption is against the best interests of everyone. The struggle and the chaos is what pushes humankind forward. You cannot have good without evil.
 
Not to single you out, but did people actually think certain government agencies didn't have spies/recon in organizations all over the world already? Hearing that Wikileaks hade a mole neither surprised nor upset me. It's just the way it things have been for a long time.
Reply With Quote

This.

How else do people think these intelligence agencies do their spying? Going and asking politely?
 
wow really only $5k. i would want a lot more then that.

Ironic how american soldiers get paid a lot less for doing 1000 times more... what do you figure...1 month in iraq, whether yer sitting around or being shot at and even dying, and you get paid about half this after taxes... Freedom is cheap... snitches are expensive though..lol
 
And if someone were to do the same thing to the US government, or an entity inside the US, they would cry afoul, call it espionage/treason/etc and throw you in a cell the rest of your life.

Just thinking of a world where the government was fair, just, and treated people how it wanted to be treated... almost hurts because we are so far away from a good society such as that.

I think you should be more worried that someone would do this for 5k. The NSA bit I get, but honestly if they're able to get people to turn over info for that little, then there's not shot at privacy. OTOH, it also means our government is far more frugal than we thought.
 
Back
Top