Why is my APC SUA2200XL not working with car batteries?

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dandragonrage

[H]F Junkie
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Jun 5, 2004
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So I'm very frustrated right now. I haven't had power since Sunday, might not have it until the weekend, can't find a generator in stores, and my goddamn APC SUA2200XL (which is supposed to be a good unit) refuses to believe that the car batteries (one deep cycle and one regular car battery that can die for all I care; I just need some friggin' power in my house) have charge in them. I charged them with my awesome Ctek charger at work and I run a 140w inverter on one just fine but the UPS will run for like two minutes. It discharges less than half overnight running a light, clock, phone charger, PSP charger. Neither of these batteries are lacking capacity. Connected to the UPS with it on, they measure about 28.3v. The dead (ran out in a friggin hour on a ~10% load... WTF) stock UPS batteries with NO load measure 26v, and would probably measure a good bit lower with power. There is NO REASON for this UPS to think that the car batteries are dead here. They have a significantly higher voltage than the dead UPS batteries.

Battery calibration is NOT an option as I do NOT have a way to charge the batteries back up, and since one is not a deep cycle battery, it won't like to be discharged all the way, anyway.

Nothing that uses a computer is an option here as I do not have power. If this can't be done from the UPS itself without a computer, this will be the last APC product I will ever buy or recommend. Grr. I've got a Liebert GXT2-1500 that I was going to sell in favor of the APC but at this rate, maybe the APC gets given away and I use the Liebert. Just too bad I don't have 4 car batteries for it. I trust that it would work.
 
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If you can't calibrate it then you'e SOL, as thats the problem.

Use a regular inverter if you have one.

It can be done from the UPS without a computer but you need electricity to do it. You run the UPS at at least 30% load, let it run down the batteries, shut it off, and then plug it back in. Sometimes you have to do it more than once.

It's APC's fault you aren't prepared? :rolleyes:
 
Yes, it is. There should be an override button or something. I've never lost power for several days before, and APC's equipment has been of absolutely no use when I did. And there is no reason for it to hate these batteries - there's enough of a voltage difference between them and my dead UPS batteries that it shouldn't be registering these as dead. Over 2v difference with these batteries plugged in vs the UPS batteries unplugged, so the difference would be even more if I measured the voltage of the UPS batteries when they are plugged in. Not only is it ridiculous to not put some emergency override, but it simply should not think of these batteries as anywhere NEAR dead in the first place. What the hell is the point of not allowing me to use my batteries? If I want to run them all the way down, that's my decision. I'd rather have some friggin' power and one sulfated car battery than a stupid piece of equipment thinking it's smarter than me.

At least my work has power now (it did lose it but not for as long) but I'm not going to lug hundreds of pounds of batteries back and forth over multiple days.

Also, do realize that this is a frustrating circumstance for me and all of the others in my area who have not had power for days. I'm lucky in that I have running water - there are houses not even a mile away that do not. Call us all unprepared if you want, but the FACT is that APC's equipment is useless in an emergency situation, unless there's a way to do this without telling the UPS "Hey, please deplete my batteries and sulfate the car battery and run me out of power just so you can realize that you were an idiot all along and these batteries are perfectly fine - well, they were, until you killed the car battery."
 
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Ruoh said:
So, this has happened before, and you were suprised when it happened again?
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And you learned to read where? It has never happened before this incident, but when this incident happened, APC's equipment has been useless. I simply can't understand why not a single employee of APC seemed to think of the fact that someone might want to expand their battery capacity during a power outage. Why was it so hard to put some sort of override option? Why is there no button to inform the machine that the batteries are, in fact, fully charged and good? Call me unprepared if you want to, but it is factual information that APC's equipment has been of zero use when it could and should have been very useful.
 
There is also no reason for APC to support using their product in a way that is inconsistent with its design and manufacture.
 
dandragonrage said:
And you learned to read where? It has never happened before this incident, but when this incident happened, APC's equipment has been useless.
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Now I understand what you were trying to say. There's no way APC is going to take liability for the average consumer trying to add their own battery capacity.
 
All I'm looking for is the ability to expand the capacity during a power outage. The fact that I want to do it with car batteries is irrelevant. I can't grasp why nobody else is agreeing here. My first post was written in frustration, but I really think it's a valid point. Why does the UPS have to discharge the batteries in order to use them? I really don't care what the UPS thinks it has for battery capacity. I just want some friggin' power. Calibration should be completely optional. If it can't figure out how much runtime it has left then it should just not display any runtime, but why the hell should it shut down just because it doesn't know that? My life has not been in danger due to this power outage but what if this were the middle of winter and I had no heat and no way to get to a relative's house (for example, there was so much snow that I couldn't get anywhere)? It could be a life-or-death situation where having working power could save a life, but no - APC equipment won't work without being able to drain the batteries down, only so it can tell you how much power it has left?

I wouldn't try to get them to warranty the thing if I broke it while screwing around with the battery configuration. Yes, some people would. But what is there to prevent them from doing that currently? Just because the UPS is too dumb to work with my batteries does not mean that some moron can't mess with the batteries, mess up the UPS and try to blame APC. I went to school for electronics and battery configurations are not a foreign concept to me. There's nothing irresponsible about what I am trying to do. But what if I had gone out and bought a UPS battery extension unit during this power outage? I'd need to go through the same BS? The issue is capacity expansion in general, not the fact that I want to use car batteries. To say that it's an invalid point because this is how APC designed it is the wrong way to think about it. WHY has APC designed it this way? Not a single person over there has ever needed to swap batteries during an extended power outage? Please.

I dropped the ball on being prepared. APC dropped the ball on equipment usability. Period.
 
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The APC SUA2200XL has hot swappable batteries and supports expanded capacity. The problem is you are trying to use the system in a way that it was not intended to be used and with a product that is incompatible/not supported. The solution to your problem is to use the appropriate modules such as (http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA48XLBP) and you will have no problems with hot swapping the batteries and continuing on battery ad nauseum. APC has configured the systems such that what you are experiencing is to prevent people from doing what you are attempting for liability reasons. If you are successful in circumventing their controls great, if not it is not APC dropping the ball on usability as the system does support hot swap and expandability when using compatible infrastructure.
 
UPS's are there to keep equipment on long enough for it to either shut down correctly, or to power the equipment until the generator turns on since those are always on some sort of a delay. Why can't you understand this?

Why the hell should APC support some half assed hack? Simply because you've decided they should? Next time buy an inverter instead of blaming everyone else.
 
valve1138 said:
UPS's are there to keep equipment on long enough for it to either shut down correctly, or to power the equipment until the generator turns on since those are always on some sort of a delay. Why can't you understand this?

Why the hell should APC support some half assed hack? Simply because you've decided they should? Next time buy an inverter instead of blaming everyone else.
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Bottom line. APC is not at fault for users attempting to use the equipment in a manner its not designed for.

If you want cheap, simple, long term UPS, get some deep cycles and inverters.
 
What I am attempting to do is neither half-assed nor a hack. And this has nothing to do with the fact that I am using car batteries. Lead acid batteries are lead acid batteries. There are differences (flooded cell, gel cel, AGM, sponge plate, solid plate, hybrid, etc.) but nothing that a UPS would know or care about (as long as the cells are good). Of course, I would care about those long term, but my situation is not at ALL different from replacing the batteries with genuine RBC11 batteries as far as the UPS is concerned. These batteries use the same voltages and will provide the same current. The ONLY difference is that they have more capacity. Well, that and the fact that the UPS would kill one of the two if it were to repeatedly drain it.

I'm beginning to question the understanding of the people that are answering with nothing more than the fact that APC doesn't support it so that's the end of discussion. No, it's not the end of the discussion. There are no extra liability issues at stake here. Anything that I mess up could be messed up whether APC supports this configuration or not. I'm sure APC doesn't support using any batteries that are not APC-branded, so feel free to troll the "where do you buy your UPS batteries" thread we have going and tell people that any battery not provided by the manufacturer of your UPS is a half-assed unsupported hack and that you should go to hell for just wanting some power after a natural disaster while having equipment which was created to provide power during a power outage that REFUSES to do so.

It's a question of swapping batteries, not a question of using car batteries. Okay, so they won't give me any support if I'm using car batteries. Fine! But they are still lead acid batteries that are fundamentally the same as the APC RBC11 batteries, and for the UPS to reject them is not going to change if I were to use UPS batteries. The chemistry is the EXACT SAME except that one of them happens to have sponge plates instead of solid plates. Not only does the UPS not know that they are car batteries, but it would be literally impossible for it to determine such. So let me rephrase the problem for you:

Hi! I have a couple of group 27 UPS batteries that I am trying to use with my UPS during a power outage but it won't recognize them as having any capacity even though I had both of these UPS batteries on a high quality Ctek charger before the power went out! They work for other purposes, but the UPS is the only thing that I have that can support the capacity that it does. Please help me get my UPS batteries working without having to discharge them, because I have no power to charge them back up! I don't care about the runtime meter on the UPS. I just want some power!

Better?

Also,

valve1138 said:
Next time buy an inverter instead of blaming everyone else.
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A UPS IS an inverter plus a power supply/charger/meter in one. Thus I HAVE an inverter. Where do you come up with the idea that it's only intended for shutting down systems? That's an arbitrary viewpoint. A UPS is meant to provide power from batteries... period. If it were only meant to power during shutdowns then they wouldn't even give me the option to hook up 10 extra battery cabinets and show me on their site that I can get dozens of hours on a given load if I add x amount of capacity. If you want to use a UPS for what you've mentioned, fine. But don't come in here and troll my thread just because of your narrow-minded view of the product is. It is a FACT that the equipment CAN DO what I needed it to do. Plenty of people do it all the time - check Youtube and other sites. It is also a FACT that the equipment did NOT do this for me for ridiculous reasoning. It is also a fact that discharging a lead acid battery completely - even the true deep-cycle type with solid plates - is NOT good for the battery. Forcing this to be done just to allow the batteries to work at ALL is absolutely ridiculous.

The UPS should work on these batteries and either not show a runtime and maybe even tell me that it is unable to do so. There is absolutely no reason to keep me from power just because it doesn't know how much remains in the battery. If I were talking about how I messed up my UPS and APC refused to help me, then I would agree with you all. Well, I wouldn't even try to get them to help me, anyway. I'm responsible for my own mods. But for the equipment to not work for the reason that it's not working is absolutely ridiculous.

And I'm not "blaming everyone else." I take responsibility for not being prepared. But it's factual information that the UPS is capable of working with these batteries. It's factual information that they were fully charged to the correct voltage and set up correctly. And it's factual information that the UPS rejected them because I had no power in my home. My post was obviously written in frustration and it did not attack anyone personally, so don't come in here and attack me because of your narrow minded views on the product. Maybe APC doesn't give a crap about me. In fact, I already knew that was the case. But that doesn't mean that their equipment failed to be useful in a disaster situation. How can you sit there and personally attack me for wanting to use the only means that I had to supply power IN A DISASTER SITUATION? Again, I lucked out that it wasn't a question of life or death, but it was still a disaster.
 
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Spin it all you want, its your fault. Keep on ranting though, your anger is entertaining.
 
I haven't been angry at all. Just frustrated that I haven't had power when I have equipment in front of me that is meant to provide it, and charged batteries waiting to go. However, my position stands firm. Am I really the only one who asks questions that start with "Why" anymore? I don't understand how "Because that's how it was designed" is a good enough answer.
 
Incorrect/uncalibrated batteries. Not the same. Its not all "acid and lead plates and shit and should just work."
Be frustrated all you want, as long you realize its operator error, not APC's.
 
Monkey God said:
Incorrect/uncalibrated batteries. Not the same. Its not all "acid and lead plates and shit and should just work."
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Actually, it is. They produce the same voltages and are charged the same way. Actually, gel cel batteries are supposed to be charged with a little less voltage, but my batteries are not gel cel, so that's irrelevant. And they do sell gel cel UPS batteries, too. But most people use AGM these days. It's far superior for indoor use. They are the safest of the three types (flooded, gel, AGM) but their power density is unfortunately the worst of them.

If you'd like to talk actual science then feel free. I would rather discuss reasoning with science. The chemical composition between a UPS battery and a car battery is no different except, again, for the fact that the UPS battery will have solid lead plates and car batteries are almost always sponge plates which is not very good for deep discharging but can ofter slightly better power density when deep cycling is not required.

Also, I understand that it wants a battery calibration. I expected that was the problem from the moment that the problems started. I am questioning WHY it requires one (originally, I was asking how to circumvent that - and venting my frustration... mainly the latter, I suppose). It would obviously be necessary to give me a runtime, but why is it necessary to provide power at all? And why is "Because APC said so" a good enough excuse for you? Did you grow up with parents that answered "Because I said so" to every question you ever asked?
 
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Monkey God said:
Bottom line. APC is not at fault for users attempting to use the equipment in a manner its not designed for.

If you want cheap, simple, long term UPS, get some deep cycles and inverters.
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Indeed. I've got a Walmart marine battery and an inverter. Works like a charm. :)
 
valve1138 said:
Indeed. I've got a Walmart marine battery and an inverter. Works like a charm. :)
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While a marine battery is better than the car battery I was attempting to use in a pinch, note that they are not the same as deep cycle batteries. They still have sponge plates, though they are usually denser than those found in car batteries and thus better for deep cycling, but not nearly as good as a true deep cycle battery with solid plates. What you have would is commonly referred to as a 'hybrid' type. Good brands would be Trojan, Concorde, Universal Battery, etc. Of course, they are harder to find and more expensive than a marine battery...
 
I don't care what the specifics are, I can run a 26" LCD and a DIrecTV box for 6 hours off a full charge for tailgating :cool:
 
Could it be that the APC measures each battery and thinks something is wrong because the voltages don't match closely enough? What does each battery measure after being charged but unplugged for 6 hours, both no-load and under load?
 
Well, my power came back Wednesday evening so I can go ahead and get the UPS ready with larger batteries and do the calibration now. I don't have the exact answer to your question but if the stock UPS batteries were run down to 26v (when the load is removed - thus the voltage would probably be a bit lower if I'd measured it with them hooked up) and the 2 I was trying measured 28.3v (or whatever it was) while hooked up - I think that should have been enough for the UPS to think that they were at at LEAST half capacity. I wasn't expecting the unit to make perfect use of them but for it to give me NOTHING was confusing and super frustrating. I STILL don't understand why it registered NO charge on them, and it STILL annoys me, but I'm over the majority of the frustration since I have power back...
 
I think the real bottom line is this. APC is in the business of making a profit in providing an answer to a narrowly defined problem. Anything that does NOT meet their criteria will not be supported. This is the way it is with most companies. Protecting themselves from a possible liability suit is a way of making/protecting profit made on sale of their units. To help you in any way condones the use of a product in a way it was not intended or insured with liability for. Prevention of using a device in a manner not intended also falls under this same category. Oh, and let's NOT forget government regulation.

I feel your pain in this but the trial lawyers have made open systems obsolete in many areas. There use to be a time when you could easily work on your own car engine or even swap it out and interchange parts. Not so easy anymore. Technology and patents also have a great deal to do with the way things are designed today.
 
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