Why does raytracing suck so much, is it because of nvidia's bad hardware implementation?

Discussion in 'Video Cards' started by Peppercorn, Jun 7, 2019.

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  1. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I have to say that I agree.

    What we're going to see, it seems, is a further decelleration of performance improvement per generation of the midrange, and an acceleration of the price in the higher end. While it is because of physics, I agree that that makes no difference to the average buyer.
     
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  2. DooKey

    DooKey [H]ard DCOTM x4

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    It is what it is.
     
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  3. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Geez. Not only is $50 pretty paltry, but they also released a 1660Ti without RTX at the old x60 series price with a nice generational boost. No one is twisting your arm to get in now.

    It's an even more bankrupt position to be arguing used cards. You know what, used stuff is cheaper, it always is, or no one would buy it. Arguing used prices is a ridiculous argument.

    All that might happen is people move down a tier, to pay the price they are comfortable with.
     
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  4. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    That is what people are doing.

    Nvidia re-sorted their performance tiers at the die to SKU level with the GTX600-series- the GTX680 getting a midrange Gx104 die, and the Gx1x0 die not being seen till the GTX780- and they appear to have done the same again with the RTX2000-series.

    The entry-level enthusiast parts are getting smaller relative to their largest consumer parts, and the prices of the largest parts are going up.
     
  5. kirbyrj

    kirbyrj [H]ard as it Gets

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    I don't think I explained myself correctly. My fault. Traditionally You got more performance in a lower price tier with a new generation. This generation you got almost identical performance in the same price tier just with new features that arguably aren't very useful. Which is why used cards are a significantly better value and why I brought them up.

    When you move down a tier from the Pascal generation to the Turing generation following your suggestion you gain virtually nothing. The only card that makes any difference is on the extreme high-end and it is priced astronomically.
     
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  6. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    This is about the only good argument for used cards, especially in the post-mining era.
     
  7. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    This really only matters if you are looking to upgrade every generation, so you hold one more generation. That isn't exactly a big deal for any but a fringe of the market.
     
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  8. blackmomba

    blackmomba n00b

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    Sure, the ball is rolling I suppose. But I guess that's part of the answer that OP was looking for; adoption is low, tech is new, and the implementation isn't really a full ray tracing solution
     
  9. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It is 'full ray tracing'; however, there's not enough grunt available with current technologies to do 'full ray tracing' on more than the simplest games (see Quake II RTX) and that with their noise reduction routines. What does also exist is hybrid raster and ray tracing, which will be the way forward for the next decade or so. We still haven't reached the point where raster graphics output on current titles can meet human acuity and responsiveness, which will be something along the lines of 4k120 on the desktop at a minimum, and far higher for VR.
     
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  10. blackmomba

    blackmomba n00b

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    Maybe along that road we will see the improvements everyone is looking for.

    For now, Nvidia is asking 1200 for a card that doesn't have enough "grunt" to get through a 25 year old game demo heavily optimized for RTX at 4K. Not enough RT cores? I guess that could be why it sucks
     
  11. Factum

    Factum [H]ard|Gawd

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    NVIDA has two generations that can run this...AMD must be really bad then since they cannot run it...period.
     
  12. Mchart

    Mchart 2[H]4U

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    And AMD has nothing, what's your point? The 2080ti still offers the best raster performance as well. It's not as if you are paying just for RT features and not getting a bump in raster performance. It's still faster by 30-40% than a 2080, and AMD still can't match a 2080 in most titles.
     
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  13. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

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    1+2 If you want your hardware to succeed you need software both 1 and 2 points are made that if you need to make it work that is something you need to address segmented performance on ray tracing does not help nor does the part help where only the top end part does ray tracing well enough to mitigate performance asking more money for it does not help selling hardware (features for the rich not for the poor). This is the biggest issue for failing to meet a better game experience for the gaming community.

    3. You can implement DXR on any engine that does not cover what I mean by having games/software actually use it. The drawback is no user base and a segmented one you need to implement 3 versions of ray tracing for it to function across the whole platform if you don't people can enjoy ray tracing on 720p if they are lucky. It is the single most divisive issue where you are now forced to have/use less ray tracing (Battlefield V first few patches did this).

    4. This point is disingenuous you either bring your goods to the market and sell it or try and market it and hope people buy it. I find that Nvidia has been lacking on both software and hardware fronts to sell us ray tracing. It is not like the gpu and ray tracing materialized out of thin air they worked hard on it (several years) Nvidia has influence on developers when it comes to pushing things as Gameworks on them and now with ray tracing not so much ?
     
  14. Factum

    Factum [H]ard|Gawd

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    1+2) We have ben here before: https://www.hardocp.com/article/2006/11/08/bfgtech_geforce_8800_gtx_gts/18 DXR is from Microsoft, not NVIDIA...just like DX10 was...going to be funny to watch you post when AMD start supporting DXR.../backpaddle?

    3) There is one DXR option? It's called DXR and is an extension of DX12: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/tag/dxr/

    4) You sounds like you failed Economics 101 and is posting form the "entitled" posistion.

    It's going to be soooooooo fun to see you run around in circles when both AMD and Intel starts supporting DXR...
     
  15. amenx

    amenx Limp Gawd

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    Funny you mention the term 'disingenuous' with that argument, lol. Gameworks and RT are not equivalent in the eyes of developers. Gameworks is easier to push onto devs when you have an overwhelming market share of the GPU market. RT only stands to benefit a very small percentage of GPU owners in the present time, so game devs would not be as enthusiastic in implementing it so quickly. They see its tremendous future potential, but as of now short term priorities still hold. Nvidia it must be assumed, has been as aggressive as they can possibly be in pushing RT to the devs, THEY NEED TO for their RTX line to take off. Yet here you are suggesting otherwise in defiance of all logic. :rolleyes:
     
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  16. MangoSeed

    MangoSeed Limp Gawd

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    This is how the 3D industry has always worked. Hardware acceleration, antialiasing, 32-bit color. They all were available first on the most expensive parts and then trickled down over time. Why would RT be any different especially given it’s a massive change compared to what we’ve had for the last 30 years.
     
  17. Pulsar

    Pulsar Gawd

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    Exactly. I'm seeing the same pattern that we had when we went from software rendering to 3d hardware accelerated rendering with RT. It's not a new rendering technique, but we're only beginning to see it becoming realistically usable for gaming. I remember back in the 90s, looking at ray traced renders and thinking how awesome it would be once we can actually see that being used in games. I can't wait until it becomes the norm and not something that developers needs to be "showcased". People forget how big a performance hit things we now see as "normal" was to hardware at their time of introduction to PC gaming. Things like reflective surfaces, bump maps, anti aliasing, shadows, tesselation. It's funny, even back then, a lot of naysayers were complaining about how those things weren't needed because they "can't see much of a difference."
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
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  18. Krenum

    Krenum [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Its not that it sucks, its just that this is the first wave of hardware implementation. I assume it will get better over time or morph into something else, like Hardware T&L if some of you are old enough to remember from the Geforce 2 days.

    I can see why people think it sucks though. Spending all that money on a product they were led to believe was a shoe in for the future (which it is) but not right now.

    Never buy the newest model of anything.
     
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  19. Bawjaws

    Bawjaws Limp Gawd

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    Yeah, this isn't really any different from a number of new technologies where being an early adopter means paying through the nose for what is ultimately a sub-optimal experience. It's almost always better to wait for the second generation or later, as the tech becomes cheaper and more capable. But at the same time, you have to accept that if you want the latest and greatest new thing right now, you'll have to pay for it.
     
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  20. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Voodoo Graphics, Geforce 3, 9700 Pro, 8800GTS...

    I'd say that it depends. The RTX cards have a decent blend of raster performance and ray tracing hardware. It's really the software that is catching up.
     
  21. NKD

    NKD [H]ardness Supreme

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    cuz its gen 1 lol. I am waiting for gen 3 or 4 before I think about anything ray tracing.
     
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  22. Aireoth

    Aireoth 2[H]4U

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    Idk, I got a great performance bump over my Titan XP at 3440x1440 and 100hz. Color me happy.
     
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  23. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Regardless of how much the OP thinks Ray Tracing Sucks.

    We might soon have the first Ray Tracing Killer App:

    https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/cyberpunk-2077-nvidia-partnership-ray-tracing/
    Note about final line does show up in quotes unless you click it. Dang, someone needs to check this out...
    "If you happen to be at E3, swing by Booth 1023 in the South Hall to check out real-time ray tracing in action in the latest Cyberpunk 2077 E3 demo presentation."
     
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  24. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I do hope they release a video soon, specifically for the OP ;)
     
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  25. Maddness

    Maddness [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'm sold now. Cyberpunk 2077 it's my most anticipated game.
     
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  26. kirbyrj

    kirbyrj [H]ard as it Gets

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    I hope Nvidia plans on releasing the 3XXX series before then otherwise no one will be able to take advantage of it.
     
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  27. Auer

    Auer Limp Gawd

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    What if it has DLSS?
     
  28. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Hopefully it has DLSS. And hopefully it's well-implemented.
     
  29. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

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    You mean what the news sites keep reporting that Nvidia is using Samsung 7nm EUV for their cards and that bit keeps popping up just before AMD has an announcement ?
     
  30. Maddness

    Maddness [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'd say that won't happen until late 2020.
     
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  31. Revenant_Knight

    Revenant_Knight Limp Gawd

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    I was playing BFV today, 1440P, Ultra, with Ray Tracing on Ultra and no DLSS on a 8086K with RTX 2080. I got between 50 and 80 FPS while playing. Most of the time I was in the 70s. My only real issue is the denoising isn't great yet leaving a film grain appearance in some instances, and the price barrier. I don't normally use it for multiplayer because I like higher frame rates, but the performance isn't as crippling as people seem to think it is. Certainly fine for single player non-competitive games at least for me.

    And it will get better too. These are the same complaints people made when T&L engines were just becoming a thing. The same was said about 32bit color, and GLIDE vs Direct X. It's all the same.

    That said, my previous video card was a 980ti. If I hadn't missed the 1080ti deals, I probably would have gotten one instead of a 2080.
     
  32. mustang-SVT

    mustang-SVT n00b

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    if it wasnt for cyberpunk... i wont even have to consider rtx...
     
  33. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    HWUB talks new titles from E3 that support Ray Tracing. It seems like going forward most big titles are going to support it.
     
  34. Furious_Styles

    Furious_Styles [H]ard|Gawd

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    If nvidia is smart they would be paying devs to include it.
     
  35. Alienslare

    Alienslare [H]Lite

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    This wont go any further or above the green team. I do admire Amd graphics being cheap and effective when it comes to price and performance. Nvidia’s ray tracing was in pipeline for almost a decade may be it wasnt the right time to release it.

    You cpu/gpu hybrid approach rings a bell. You see the number of the tensa cores remind me of cuda cores when nvidia released that architecture and gradually increased the number of cuda cores and the architecture become promising due to decrease in nm size.

    There Navi has a better chance to avail all possibilities to come true and mind it 5700 and 5700xt isnt their flagship cards. There is more to come. The 7 is just to compete the 7 for now and the XT is for the TI. So expect something for the 8 and the 8 TI
    2070 vs 5700
    2070ti vs 5700xt

    Super would get it competitor thats the Amd did not disclose any other model other then 5700xt
     
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  36. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If not tongue-in-cheek, Nvidia has been working with developers for quite some time to get new features supported. They've been significantly more effective than AMD in this regard, across the product spectrum.
     
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  37. Furious_Styles

    Furious_Styles [H]ard|Gawd

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    No I'm 100% serious. It's just not very popular and needs some push from nvidia if they want it to be successful. If I had a choice I'd buy the non-RTX variant of the 2080 ti today.
     
  38. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Well, it is being pushed. It's just not easy to implement a hybrid renderer, especially if essentially backporting and then keeping the full raster pipeline in place simultaneously.

    Just switching to full ray tracing is far easier, as seen in Quake II RTX.
     
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  39. Furious_Styles

    Furious_Styles [H]ard|Gawd

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    I agree with your point but we are now what, 8-9 months post-release of the 20 series and how many titles actually support it? Is it even 10 games?
     
  40. Alienslare

    Alienslare [H]Lite

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    BA376D82-CD70-497D-B946-412422ABD537.jpeg
     
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