pendragon1
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yes a few of the really high end boards do, asus mostly.
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Why AMD’s Superior Compatibility Could End
- Thread starter Megalith
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__hollywood|meow
[H]ard|Gawd
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>flashing BIOS is hard, buy a new motherboard instead
hahahahahahahahaha okay
hahahahahahahahaha okay
Formula.350
[H]ard|Gawd
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My MSI Titanium does as well. A lot of motherboards these days do actually utilize the "special file on a USB drive" trick, but there are two issues... First, it's not really mentioned clearly unless you really dig for info, sometimes requiring a special keyboard key combo while powering up, sometimes not. Second, most of the time you still need a CPU and RAM installed, which correct me if I'm wrong but if a CPU isn't supported then it sounds like you're not getting into the BIOS (hence the loaner program).
Pretty sure both ASUS and MSI's top end boards feature the No CPU, No RAM ability for updating the BIOS through that special USB port, so that's a start. (Not 100% if ASUS does, but I know at least my X370 Titanium does)
mvmiller12
[H]ard|Gawd
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I personally enjoyed the longevity of AM2, AM2+, AM3, and AM3+. There weren't really any features from newer Intel platforms it I was actually missing that I cared about at the time - at least nothing that I would want to upgrade a CPU AND Mobo for, anyway. I'm hoping AM4 is more of the same. The only time AMD has ever really disappointed me with socket longevity was Socket 939. Wikipedia says it lasted 2 years before being replaced by AM2, but it felt like blink-and-you'll-miss-it at the time...
It's not like Intel has never had a prolonged socket life, either... Slot 1, Socket 370 and BX chipset lasted a LONG time.
It's not like Intel has never had a prolonged socket life, either... Slot 1, Socket 370 and BX chipset lasted a LONG time.
Why couldn't the chips just have something in them that allows them to run very bare minimum specs (maybe only 1 core enabled, no SMT, etc) just to allow a bios update? Anything new coming out could then just be plopped into an old board, it'd run like crap for a little bit, but after a bios update recognise all cores and go from there.
Is this a hardware limitation or a software one? If the CPU fits... The board should have some way of reading something off it? Surely? Maybe? Maybe not? Pipe dream? XD
Is this a hardware limitation or a software one? If the CPU fits... The board should have some way of reading something off it? Surely? Maybe? Maybe not? Pipe dream? XD
thebufenator
[H]ard|Gawd
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Yes, for my ASUS CHVI, no cpu or ram == easy bios update.
Part of the issue I had with s939, was s754 for the Durons. I wish AMD hadn't created that division in their lineup, that's part of why it seemed like the Opteron 165 build I did was the *only* s939 setup I had.
Skylinestar
Gawd
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These are the people who normally don't have much knowledge on a PC build. In a perfect world, every motherboard on sale should have their BIOS/UEFI updated to the latest version. Blame the PC seller for not doing their best in business and not tracking these due to lack of mandatory law/regulation.
MTDEW
Weaksauce
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When i bought my Kaby Lake 7700k CPU I had to decide on a Z170 board that may come with an updated bios for Kaby Lake support or a Z270 board.
Since the Z170 boards were on sale and way cheaper than the exact same board in Z270, i decided to take my chance and bought a Z170 board.
While waiting for them to arrive I just ordered me a pre-programmed bios chip with the latest bios from ebay for like $14 "just in case"
Turns out my z170 board didnt have the latest bios for Kaby Lake support, so i swapped in the new bios chip and i was off and running....(problem solved in like 2min)
Since the Z170 boards were on sale and way cheaper than the exact same board in Z270, i decided to take my chance and bought a Z170 board.
While waiting for them to arrive I just ordered me a pre-programmed bios chip with the latest bios from ebay for like $14 "just in case"
Turns out my z170 board didnt have the latest bios for Kaby Lake support, so i swapped in the new bios chip and i was off and running....(problem solved in like 2min)
But at a cost to you. It shouldn't cost you anymore to drop a new compatible CPU into an older compatible board, I believe is the issue here.
rudy
[H]F Junkie
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I never get why they don't just make extra money off of it. If you don't have the right CPU they could sell a chip or some
I don't think that's what people want, what people want is for motherboards to either come with the latest bios or have a way to get it on there. And that's reasonable.
I personally don't care about if a platform is supported for a long time or not. What I do care about is, when a platform is updated is there a significant reason to do so. A lot of people feel and rightly so that intel purposely forces uneeded upgrade cycles for their chipsets and purposely breaks backwards compatibility. When there is a significant advancement then by all means move forward. And try if possible to keep backwards compatibility in. But at some point you got to move forward. For instance I have almost all 2600k CPUs but now its time to upgrade cause I want NVME SSDs.
The opposite might be a problem for AMD, they wait too long on a platform and hold back their motherboards. There is no one right way or magic, just push technology forward. If there is nothing you are ready to push yet don't bring out a new socket.
You also have to admit that AMD is a bit of a victim of their own market here. A lot of people look to AMD for value right? Value minded people are often people with limited money and because of that they often don't have the extra money to pay to solve their problems. IE do what you did or pay a computer repair shop that probably has a CPU laying around to flash bios for them, pay extra for a high end motherboard with CPU less bios flash, you can think of lots of scenarios. That is why they love the long support for a socket by AMD otherwise they might just buy a motherboard that is newer and more expensive or more often.
I don't think that's what people want, what people want is for motherboards to either come with the latest bios or have a way to get it on there. And that's reasonable.
I personally don't care about if a platform is supported for a long time or not. What I do care about is, when a platform is updated is there a significant reason to do so. A lot of people feel and rightly so that intel purposely forces uneeded upgrade cycles for their chipsets and purposely breaks backwards compatibility. When there is a significant advancement then by all means move forward. And try if possible to keep backwards compatibility in. But at some point you got to move forward. For instance I have almost all 2600k CPUs but now its time to upgrade cause I want NVME SSDs.
The opposite might be a problem for AMD, they wait too long on a platform and hold back their motherboards. There is no one right way or magic, just push technology forward. If there is nothing you are ready to push yet don't bring out a new socket.
You also have to admit that AMD is a bit of a victim of their own market here. A lot of people look to AMD for value right? Value minded people are often people with limited money and because of that they often don't have the extra money to pay to solve their problems. IE do what you did or pay a computer repair shop that probably has a CPU laying around to flash bios for them, pay extra for a high end motherboard with CPU less bios flash, you can think of lots of scenarios. That is why they love the long support for a socket by AMD otherwise they might just buy a motherboard that is newer and more expensive or more often.
Pieter3dnow
Supreme [H]ardness
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Let's hope AMD keep selling their products they can hire people to fix these "problems" and by the time the DDR5 motherboards hit they have an acceptable alternative.
They could even go the micro kernel route.
They could even go the micro kernel route.
Pantalaimon
Limp Gawd
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Would people like this go out, buy a new CPU and do the switch by themselves?
Skylinestar
Gawd
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Yes, after finding out the socket is the same and thinking that they can save money on motherboard without reading more details.
Related to this is the DDR3, DDR3L & DDR3U issue.
BloodyIron
2[H]4U
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The standard POST process (Power On Self Test) requires a CPU (and other components) be present to complete. AFAIK this is part of the IBM PC spec, and breaking it may break compatibility with the spec and have other consequences.
While in principle I agree with you, I'm not sure how actually feasible it is on x86.
While in principle I agree with you, I'm not sure how actually feasible it is on x86.
Sikkyu
I Question Reality
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I push a button on my asus strix x370 and it updates from the bios. Could not be easier.
While AMD may support a given platform for a time, its up to the motherboard vendors to continue to update a given model's BIOS to support newer CPUs. Something that's effectively optional on their part. We've seen mixed results in the past with AM3 and AM3+, and there is no reason to think this wouldn't be a problem going forward.
The reality is that Intel isn't that bad about compatibility. You get compatibility across a major release and a refresh release. The tick and tock of Intel's old strategy. After that, its time for a new motherboard and CPU. Essentially you are basically covered for a two to three year period. The X99 chipset was on the market for roughly three years before X299 replaced it. In that time there were two major CPU releases for that platform. Haswell-E and Broadwell-E. I bought a 5960X when they first launched. I could have upgraded to Broadwell-E, but there wasn't a compelling reason to do so. My original X99 motherboard was perfectly capable of running the 6950X that replaced my 5960X at the top of the product stack. 3 years is a long time in this industry.
I do agree that the horseshit that is Z270 and Z370 is another matter entirely.
There are a number of technical issues doing this. There is a certain amount of base code, in this case AMD's AGESA code that can be handled this way but there is a certain amount of BIOS / UEFI code that has to be done on the CPU manufacturers part for things to work properly. AMD can't anticipate or design for every variation of motherboard out there. AMD also probably doesn't want to have to troubleshoot and validate dozens of models per motherboard manufacturer.
Again, AMD doesn't have the control over the motherboard makers that Intel does. This isn't going to fly.
The reality is that Intel isn't that bad about compatibility. You get compatibility across a major release and a refresh release. The tick and tock of Intel's old strategy. After that, its time for a new motherboard and CPU. Essentially you are basically covered for a two to three year period. The X99 chipset was on the market for roughly three years before X299 replaced it. In that time there were two major CPU releases for that platform. Haswell-E and Broadwell-E. I bought a 5960X when they first launched. I could have upgraded to Broadwell-E, but there wasn't a compelling reason to do so. My original X99 motherboard was perfectly capable of running the 6950X that replaced my 5960X at the top of the product stack. 3 years is a long time in this industry.
I do agree that the horseshit that is Z270 and Z370 is another matter entirely.
There are a number of technical issues doing this. There is a certain amount of base code, in this case AMD's AGESA code that can be handled this way but there is a certain amount of BIOS / UEFI code that has to be done on the CPU manufacturers part for things to work properly. AMD can't anticipate or design for every variation of motherboard out there. AMD also probably doesn't want to have to troubleshoot and validate dozens of models per motherboard manufacturer.
Again, AMD doesn't have the control over the motherboard makers that Intel does. This isn't going to fly.
Easy solution *if* your mobo has a pullable BIOS chip. Some mobos have soldered-on BIOS chips so unless you can deal with that it's not an ideal solution.
thebufenator
[H]ard|Gawd
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This is such a non issue.
The value added point here is that someone could buy the launch setup, say with a 1700x or whatever, and then a year later add in the 2700x with a bios updated.
If you want to buy the bleeding edge CPU with a year old motherboard, do your due diligence and verify the bios is updated, or make sure you have a means to update. This was the same story in the Socket A days, where the same socket was used for several cpu familes.
The value added point here is that someone could buy the launch setup, say with a 1700x or whatever, and then a year later add in the 2700x with a bios updated.
If you want to buy the bleeding edge CPU with a year old motherboard, do your due diligence and verify the bios is updated, or make sure you have a means to update. This was the same story in the Socket A days, where the same socket was used for several cpu familes.
Sure, but if new CPUs are released without a corresponding new motherboard release, then anyone getting on board the platform for the first time is going to have a headache.
Ordinarily, when a motherboard is on the market for an extended period of time as it would in the above mentioned scenario, the BIOS version that ships on later boards is often updated to a newer version for this reason. It isn't guaranteed and there is a transitional period where you could get either BIOS, but often there are ways of telling ahead of time if you are purchasing in person. For online sales its a crap shoot for sure.
Also, as others have said there are many boards that can support BIOS flashing without a CPU or RAM installed. I've seen this feature employed on lower and lower end boards over time.
Last time I looked (about a year back, when Z170 and Z270 boards were both about, vanishingly few supported CPU-less BIOS flashing. The top end Asus ROG boards did, but they were the exception rather than the rule. Shame, as it would avoid people having to buy or borrow a cheap-as-possible compatible CPU purely to flash the BIOS of a new board.
There are still many models that don't support that feature, but I'm seeing it in lower and lower price points all the time.
Yeah, I guess it's like a lot of these "premium" features in that it'll trickle down the product stack over time. I do wish they'd make it more widely available though - when I bought my Z170i Pro Gaming board at the start of last year, I could have paired it with a 7700K but went with a 6700K instead as I couldn't be sure that the board would work with a 7700K out of the box. And as it turned it, despite there being a compatible BIOS available to download, my board didn't ship with it.
This seems more like the third party manufactures issue than AMD.
Whenever I am searching for my next cell phone a big part is the manufacture tendency to release security updates after the product is not on the shelf anymore. Apple, Google and Samsung have been great at keeping devices secure long after new replacement products have released. I tend to keep my phone for at least 3 years, those cheap androids seem to only get security patches for however long they are being actively sold, after that you are SOL.
Motherboards I keep on average for 8-10 years. Long after the manufacture has dropped support. In the age of Internet connectivity LTS(Long Term Support) is important.
Whenever I am searching for my next cell phone a big part is the manufacture tendency to release security updates after the product is not on the shelf anymore. Apple, Google and Samsung have been great at keeping devices secure long after new replacement products have released. I tend to keep my phone for at least 3 years, those cheap androids seem to only get security patches for however long they are being actively sold, after that you are SOL.
Motherboards I keep on average for 8-10 years. Long after the manufacture has dropped support. In the age of Internet connectivity LTS(Long Term Support) is important.
But most people don't buy a new processor every year, they tend to hold onto a processor and motherboard for more than a year; sometimes even more than that. By the time you get around to actually wanting to buy a new processor you're probably going to want to buy a new motherboard as well. Yes, backward compatibility is nice but it can also be a double-edged sword.
pendragon1
Extremely [H]
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it is
where did I say that or give a timeframe? i didn't. the new 470 is backwards compatible, the 370 and lower are forward compatible.
people are acting like this is a new outrageous thing and its not. what is new is amd sending out chips to try and help. yet all they get is shit on for it.
Skylinestar
Gawd
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Don't forget that Microsoft wants you to activate that Windows again
Armenius
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What, you didn't love being stuck with PCI-E 2.0 and USB 2.0?
DeathFromBelow
Supreme [H]ardness
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I don't recall any issues with the USB2->USB3 transition on the AMD side. AMD-compatible boards were cheaper so paying a little more for a board with a USB3 controller on the mobo wasn't a big deal.
They also had SATA6 on all SATA ports back when Intel was just doing 2 per controller.