Why 80 PLUS® is Irrelevant to You When Buying a PSU @ [H]

I like the push for more efficient supplies for a couple reasons having to do with thermodynamics mostly:

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Because of this, the closer a PSU approaches 100% efficiency, the less electricity it will shed as heat. This means less heat from the PSU... whoop whoop you might say, since it will end up getting burned in the IC's anyways... but it also means it will produce less heat "per clock cycle" than a less efficient PSU. The biggest thing to me is that it also means less fans and less noise!! If a PSU is efficient enough, it could be cooled without any fans at all, or even be a sealed unit. Thats what I'll pay more for. I could care less if I save a few bucks on electricity... with triple monitors, dual GPU's, water cooling pumps, etc... Im not trying to cut electricity costs any time soon. But less noise from fans and dust buildup inside the components... thats priceless to me.
 
I've always ignored it anyway and just gone on [H] recommendations, (Corsair HX850 atm)

I think they should just pay you guys $2500 to certify it.
 
I've always ignored it anyway and just gone on [H] recommendations, (Corsair HX850 atm)

I think they should just pay you guys $2500 to certify it.

They could, but only 1 in 10 would pass.
 
I think they should just pay you guys $2500 to certify it.


I'd like that, but it would hurt the editorial independence of the [H], an still wouldn't solve the bait and switch problem in which either cherry picked, or completely different units are sent in for testing instead of what will actually wind up on the market.
 
I'm glad I don't blindly follow these 80 plus certifications. Luckily I normally stick with Corsair or Seasonic and sometimes Antec, if the price is right.

All three are effectively the same brand at this point. I actually saw a drop in my power bill after switching from a BFG non 80 Plus generic power supply to a higher wattage capable Antec 80 Plus rated one. It's enough to make it worth the trouble of tracking down a good power supply if you can catch one on sale. (As I did with my Antec EcoPower)

Agree, let's trade places! ^-^ How much is your residential bill by KWH exactly? "Way less than 8 cents" seems unnatural.
I am with Puget Sound Energy and it's $0.10/KWH ($0.099435 to be precise), or rather $0.11/KWH for the whole bill.
The price per KWH is actually a sum of 6 individual rates, they don't want to make it easy on us.

Your breakdown is similar to mine, but once you add in all the other taxes, fees... the real cost of electricity falls down around the $0.20/kWh mark. (In Chicago it varies between 0.08 to 0.11 per kWh)

So I just round up to $0.20 for everything and it tends to be more universally accurate and accounts for the additional fees on the bill which vary based on consumption.
 
You would think if they are being paid $2500 they could test a random second unit on their own...

Happy to see this article. I've been saying for awhile that Gold and Platinum PSUs aren't really worth the price. YET. Even if your rates are more expensive, we are talking about dollar values so close together that it would take 2.5-3yrs to pay it off.

Over time the gold and silver units will become as mainstream as the bronze is now, and it won't make sense to buy the bronze anymore. But until that time I don't think its wrong at all to buy a bronze unit.
 
Excellent Read, I'll have watch more carefully, but I usually buy corsair and I trust them.
 
Good write up, you uncovered some dirty tricks and I hope this article will help people think twice before trusting the certifications. Certifications is one thing but it need to be backed by good reviews like the ones done on [H].

Continue the good work, Paul !
 
I'm glad I don't blindly follow these 80 plus certifications. Luckily I normally stick with Corsair or Seasonic and sometimes Antec, if the price is right.

Same here. Antec, Seasonic and Corsair are all trusted brands. I add Silverstone t this list more recently too, as they have tested very well.

Enermax is on that list as well. Been using them for YEARS since before Antec were as ubiquitous as they are today, back when Corsair only sold RAM.

Either way, I always check the [H] review before buying a PSU just in case, and I don't buy a PSU unless the particular PSU family has been reviewed.

For instance, the [H] reviewed bit the 400W and 1500W versions of the Silverstone Strider, so I felt comfortable buying the 1200W Strider.
 
Here in the Hudson Valley region of NY, I'm paying close to 16 cents per KWH (15.906 Cents). This is nearly double the cost used for the charts. I'd be saving over $88 a year with just the 500w models if i went Platinum. Eventually it starts saving you money, and in NY it's even quicker.
 
I personally love the gold rated spec, as I'm paying almost 20c kw/h here in Canada for power with transmission costs etc.

But the real gold in the 80+ golden rating, is the savings of room heating. Saving between 30-50w of heat dumped into my room in a heavy load scenario is, IMHO, fantastic - as it is rarely cool enough in the summer. But I still do the math myself. A gold rated 1200w PSU putting out 450w will often test poorer than a bronze rated 750w PSU coping with the same load - especially if the 3 and 5v lines are barely taxed. It doesn't make sense to trust JUST a rating such as this, as it doesn't take these things into account. IT's a good starting point though, IMHO, and saving energy (both for the ecological standpoint and simply the overtaxxing of our electrical grid) is certainly a bonus.

And I have a thing for efficiency. I love the concept of efficiency so much that I plan out things as benign as running to my bedroom, from the basement, and accomplishing many smaller tasks in the most efficient way possible on the way. Go figure!
 
Nice article....

Efficiency matters if you're folding.
 
Sadly the Power Supply is still something that people cut back on when assembling a new computer. With the certification you would think you would be a lot safer.
When you know what to purchase life is easier but when brands get units certified and just let you down is very disappointing.

A good few years ago there was a nice wiki by some overclocking Australians which listed almost for each model what hardware was used on each brand that was way before the certification took place.

Everyone in the branch should care about this, it hollows out the name and the certification which in turn will eventually lead to a drop in sales.
 
an interesting article. and to be honest im not surprised by what was said.
 
So now HardOCP has suggested to consumers to go out and buy a PSU regardless of conversion efficency.

While that is fine for most, we now have the strong case that someone will go out and get a 40% efficency PSU, and remember that a 40% psu takes roughly twice the draw to produce the same output as a 80% one (the rest is converted into heat).

So that being the case Paul Johnson, I'll be waiting for the next article where you tell people what they need to look for and why.

I think you have missed the entire point of the article that is spelled out in the title. 80 PLUS is irrelevant, not efficiency. We spend time and money to test PSU efficiency in every review we have ever done and put emphasis on it. The point is, don't trust the badge on the box, not ignore efficiency. And while we do not put efficiency at the top of the "must have" list for PSU purchasing, the reality is that new, well-built PSUs, are in fact by nature very efficient comparing historically. So we find that worry about other factors when buying an enthusiast PSU are more of a priority.

If you are waiting on being told what to buy, I suggest you look at long long list of PSU reviews we have published. To be simplistic, we are more in the business of telling you what to buy more than we are of what not to buy. Quite frankly, I think HardOCP resources are better spent on "good reviews" than "bad reviews," sadly though we still come in contact with enough products to give more than our fair share of bad ones. :(
 
Your points are well taken and I applaud you [H]olding industry's feet to the fire...well done!

That said I question the statement "unless you are in a rather narrow niche of people who use their system 24/7 at significant load levels, which the majority of consumers and even enthusiasts are likely not."

I am not so sure. Now, I do frequent the distributed computing subforum so perhaps my viewpoint is skewed. It would be illuminating to see a front page poll on how many of your readers are flogging their setups without mercy 24/7. I know I am.
 
Your points are well taken and I applaud you [H]olding industry's feet to the fire...well done!

That said I question the statement "unless you are in a rather narrow niche of people who use their system 24/7 at significant load levels, which the majority of consumers and even enthusiasts are likely not."

I am not so sure. Now, I do frequent the distributed computing subforum so perhaps my viewpoint is skewed. It would be illuminating to see a front page poll on how many of your readers are flogging their setups without mercy 24/7. I know I am.

Well there are 887 active members of Team 33 according to hard folding, and there are 150,000+ registered users of the forums here (on top that the [H] community is but one small portion of the enthusiast and home user community in general). Personally, my home PC's (there are 4 PC's) are only on in anything other than sleep mode for 4 to 5 hours weekdays and then they are not even coming close to running at more 30% load.

Folders are a great group, but for you guys to really skew the results higher you need more folks...so go recruiting :D It can't hurt!
 
Kyle,

Thank you for this harsh analysis. It really needed to be done.

Also, one thing you guys missed: 80 PLUS certification does not care about PSU loads below %20. This means that efficiency curves below that %20 load mark can vary widely. They do this because it's a lot harder to make PSUs highly-efficient at low-loads, so ECOS goes for the low-hanging fruit with %20 load.

This is a problem because almost anything aside from a massive SLI/CFX system will idle at well-under %20 (100w in this case), so the power efficiency difference between one PSU and another could be all over the map.
 
I am not so sure. Now, I do frequent the distributed computing subforum so perhaps my viewpoint is skewed. It would be illuminating to see a front page poll on how many of your readers are flogging their setups without mercy 24/7. I know I am.

Considering we have about 2.5 to 3 million readers per month, if you back the active Folders out of that, it is a niche for sure. I am sure we represent a bigger "niche" than most to be sure though! :)
 
didnt there used to be a guy named johnnyguru/PSU guy who went to work for .... Corsair i wanna say? i wonder if we could get him to weigh in "unofficially" ofc ;)
 
Have you gotten a response to from them directly regarding these tricks that can occur with this cert program ??

They cant be naive and living in the dark, dont they have some safety precautions to eliminate this fraud stuff at all ??

Id be curios if they respond to your article about these issues, what they do for these things.
 
The [H] buys retail off the shelf model, so what they test is whats in the store a normal people buy, so it would be pretty safe since the mfg wont know which store they shopped it at. generally at that point they are buying the units from distributors well out of the mfg area of said company.
 
didnt there used to be a guy named johnnyguru/PSU guy who went to work for .... Corsair i wanna say? i wonder if we could get him to weigh in "unofficially" ofc ;)

wait WHAT??!?

Jhonnyguru cashed in? I missed that...wow
 
didnt there used to be a guy named johnnyguru/PSU guy who went to work for .... Corsair i wanna say? i wonder if we could get him to weigh in "unofficially" ofc ;)
Jon worked for Ultra, and then for BFG before they went out of business. He doesn't currently work for a PSU company.
 
You make some interesting claims. Part of the issue for us peons, is what % of 80+ certs are bogus. If it's only 1% then really we should be buying based on the rating. Also I would love to have seen a non 80+ misc power supply thrown into your charts, w/o it we can't know if buying 80+ v.s. non 80+ saves us money. All we have on the chart is bronze v.s. silver etc.

Given a random sample of 80+ gold, 80+ silver, 80+ bronze and non 80+ how would the math work then?

(p.s. From what I can see, most national surveys of electricity rates make the average from baseline useage rate, which basically covers maybe your lights, fridge, washer/dryer, oven and dishwasher. Your computer is going to put you into the next bracket, and use the electricity at the higher rate, unless you don't cook or wash clothes. For me that means 30 cents/kwh is the effective rate that my computer will be working at.)
 
wait WHAT??!?

Jhonnyguru cashed in? I missed that...wow

He didn't "cash in" per se. He went to work for some PSU vendors, and designated someone to run JonnyGURU.com (or at least its reviews, I don't know all of it) so that it would remain impartial. You may know him from around here as OklahomaWolf.

There are others that know more than I do, but "cashed in" sounds a little too much like "sold out" to me --and that is definitely not what he did. He was asked if he would take a job that would ensure higher quality products for end-users like us.
 
the community that created the 80 plus certification knew manufacturers would try to sell at higher price because it got the certification.

Sure, it's not good for people that do not know a lot in computers, they will buy what the sellers is telling what is good. BUT, it always has been like that ! Remember the P4 days, where only the MHz was looked to know if the CPU is fast, AMD was left behind in term of sells just because of that.

Anyway, I really don't think there is anything wrong with the 80 plus certification. If manufacturers abuse of it, the problem is at the manufacturers, not the certification.

And to end this, I bought the Kingwin platinum even if I always wanted to stay with Seasonic once I knew them. I'm completely satisfied and I know I will not save money a lot. But sure, being an eng. in electricity, I got more knowledge on electricity than the average Joe.

That's my opinion :)
 
I specifically avoided the term "sold out" for a reason. It is not my place to judge a clearly qualified engineer's decision to parlay years of hard work into something lucrative.

Thank you for clarifying the situation.
 
The [H] buys retail off the shelf model
Kudos to [H] if it's true for all reviews, à la Consumer Reports. I saw it mentioned in reviews, but I was wondering if it was systematical.

But I still do the math myself. A gold rated 1200w PSU putting out 450w will often test poorer than a bronze rated 750w PSU coping with the same load - especially if the 3 and 5v lines are barely taxed.
I did the math too: A 80+ Gold 1200W PSU (validated as such by [H]) will always be 3 to 4% more efficient than a 80+ Bronze 750W PSU.
You won't save on cost, just about $3 a year if your computer runs 10 hours a weekday, 6 hours idle at 120W and 2 hours each at 50% and 100% load.
You'd need to run it at 100% load 24/7/365 to save (only) $24 a year, but more importantly, to save a whopping 158kWH, 60kg of coal, some CO2 and on A/C cost too.
 
The [H] buys retail off the shelf model
Kudos to [H] if it's true for all reviews, à la Consumer Reports. I saw it mentioned in reviews, but I was wondering if it was systematical.
Most of the units Paul tests are retail products, but they are samples provided by the manufacturer, not purchased off the shelf. Also, systematic.
 
The [H] buys retail off the shelf model, so what they test is whats in the store a normal people buy, so it would be pretty safe since the mfg wont know which store they shopped it at. generally at that point they are buying the units from distributors well out of the mfg area of said company.
It varies, sometimes [H] buy PSUs retail, sometimes they use review samples sent by the manuafacturers.
 
I bought mine after reading numbers as measured at the JonnyGuru site -- unfortunately I've learned to never trust the numbers/stickers on a box already. Okay so the 80+ program is flawed and not perfect, but hasn't it had a good effect on PSU efficiency and awareness in general? Also the platinum > gold > silver > bronze ranking is useful even if the buckets are shifted.
 
wait WHAT??!?

Jhonnyguru cashed in? I missed that...wow

If you call getting a job "cashing in", then yeah... but to avoid conflict of interest, I stopped reviewing power supplies and handed the duties over to Oklahoma Wolf. Eventually BFG went under and now I'm back reviewing power supplies... at least until another conflict of interest comes my way. ;) So now, both me and Wolf do double duty on the reviews so we have new content about once a week.
 
What is missing in the power supply review world is the longevity test, like on storagereview
 
Go try the CX series and you'll think otherwise.

The CX units are decent, but they're low-end. You can't expect better performance from such inexpensive products.

Bingo. As Zero said, there's a reason they call them the Builder Series, and not the "Enthusiast" series. They're perfect for building a system for a parent, friend, colleague, etc. who isn't planning on running an overclocked, SLI uber-rig. They aren't meant for those of us who are serious enthusiasts.

Although if anyone buys expensive high-end graphics cards, mainboards, processors, etc. and then cheaps out on a $40-50 power supply, I'd say they're not doing due diligence on their system building.
 
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