Who Will Buy Windows VR too?

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BecauseScience

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Current Rift / Vive owners, will you pick up a Windows VR unit too? Yea or nay and why?

I'm thinking about grabbing one of the higher resolution Windows VR units. The extra pixels are supposed to be a solid visual upgrade over Rift / Vive. I plan to wait for Steam VR support first though.
 
SteamVR support would be mandatory for me, too much software already bought to just ignore. Now I would be interested in the higher resolution, color and it also had great room scale/tracking like the Vive, good controllers would also be needed. Anyways these look very promising and hope Kyle gets back into VR reviews and testing, looks like VR is about ready to explode:

https://news.samsung.com/global/sam...the-ultimate-windows-mixed-reality-experience
 
Tracking is reported to be very good as long as you're looking in the general direction of the controllers. Tracking of a controller goes dead when you look in a completely different direction. That's the big negative of the Windiows VR units.

Every headset has tradeoffs in these early days so I'm willing to give it a shot. Maybe I'll be so happy with the resolution, headset comfort, and flip-up display that I'll be happy with the tradeoff. No way to know without trying.

Heck, flip-up displays might have been enough for get me to give them a shot. I really hate taking my Rift on and off to grab a drink, orient my hands on the keyboard, find the mouse, etc.
 
BecauseScience said:
Tracking of a controller goes dead when you look in a completely different direction.
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I see a lot of people bringing this up; I suspect the impact is overstated. While 3D positional tracking is suspended when the controllers are out of sight, orientation is still reported, as it is determined gyroscopically. Based on reports I've seen from those with hands-on experience, the player impact is typically minimal, at worst. Obviously, this may vary by game, and I'll be waiting to see more reviews before making my buying decision, but I seriously doubt the tracking limitations are going to be anywhere near as significant as some are making them out to be.

I've been sitting on the fence waiting for second-gen VR (whatever that's going to mean), but I either mistook how soon it would arrive, or I over-estimated my patience. Either way, I'll likely be picking something up early next year.
 
BecauseScience said:
Tracking is reported to be very good as long as you're looking in the general direction of the controllers. Tracking of a controller goes dead when you look in a completely different direction. That's the big negative of the Windiows VR units.

Every headset has tradeoffs in these early days so I'm willing to give it a shot. Maybe I'll be so happy with the resolution, headset comfort, and flip-up display that I'll be happy with the tradeoff. No way to know without trying.

Heck, flip-up displays might have been enough for get me to give them a shot. I really hate taking my Rift on and off to grab a drink, orient my hands on the keyboard, find the mouse, etc.
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I find this very interesting, with my Vive I just slide them up to my forehead, I just don't get this flipping thing as an improvement. I pretty much have the exact same ability now.
 
ProfessorUtopia said:
I see a lot of people bringing this up; I suspect the impact is overstated. While 3D positional tracking is suspended when the controllers are out of sight, orientation is still reported, as it is determined gyroscopically. Based on reports I've seen from those with hands-on experience, the player impact is typically minimal, at worst. Obviously, this may vary by game, and I'll be waiting to see more reviews before making my buying decision, but I seriously doubt the tracking limitations are going to be anywhere near as significant as some are making them out to be.

I've been sitting on the fence waiting for second-gen VR (whatever that's going to mean), but I either mistook how soon it would arrive, or I over-estimated my patience. Either way, I'll likely be picking something up early next year.
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If you are really into the environment, lost in it and suddenly your motion is not registered - does sound like that could have a big negative impact on the experience. Does seems like a big potential weak point.
 
Here is a video by Microsoft, cringe worthy and at times puking might be preferable. Apple stollen presentation style, herding of the yippies. That said you might find some interesting stuff in it, then again it will most likely leave a foul memory in the process:

 
I am so glad that Microsoft has invented “Mixed Reality”. VR was so completely lost without this!!

Seriously though, they are like well over a year late to the party and are pretending that they have just invented this all in typical Microsoft fashion. The level of bad imitation here is through the roof... You can just feel how this all sprung from a room full of Microsoft corporate executives deciding that they really want in on this VR thing as well and have been yelling at their engineering teams for the better part of a year to just make it happen...

Anyone bored enough to want to count how many freaking times he said the words “Mixed Reality”?

I’m very pro VR, but I’m going to sit out this first round of Window’s “Mixed Reality” aka Windows VR HMD offerings though. While there may be some small improvements as to HMD resolution, I can’t help but feel that it’s going to take them a good 6+ months to whip their software into shape... and they better embrace SteamVR as fast as possible if they want to be taken seriously. I’m also not convinced their tracking is going to be as good... looking forward to some in-depth reviews and comparisons.

On the bright side, this will introduce even more folks to VR. I do pity those folks being saddled to Microsoft and its apps store starting off though... no one should have to be subjected to that kind of horror, even if it is closing in on Halloween, :)
 
Supercharged_Z06 said:
I am so glad that Microsoft has invented “Mixed Reality”. VR was so completely lost without this!!

Seriously though, they are like well over a year late to the party and are pretending that they have just invented this all in typical Microsoft fashion. The level of bad imitation here is through the roof... You can just feel how this all sprung from a room full of Microsoft corporate executives deciding that they really want in on this VR thing as well and have been yelling at their engineering teams for the better part of a year to just make it happen...

Anyone bored enough to want to count how many freaking times he said the words “Mixed Reality”?

I’m very pro VR, but I’m going to sit out this first round of Window’s “Mixed Reality” aka Windows VR HMD offerings though. While there may be some small improvements as to HMD resolution, I can’t help but feel that it’s going to take them a good 6+ months to whip their software into shape... and they better embrace SteamVR as fast as possible if they want to be taken seriously. I’m also not convinced their tracking is going to be as good... looking forward to some in-depth reviews and comparisons.

On the bright side, this will introduce even more folks to VR. I do pity those folks being saddled to Microsoft and its apps store starting off though... no one should have to be subjected to that kind of horror, even if it is closing in on Halloween, :)
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I do like the Cortana integration and voice commands. Using voice to do things makes sense. Agreed SteamVR proper support will be needed and looks like it will be. I am thinking tracking may improve over time via updates but who knows.

I am tempted with the Samsung version.
 
Ya, Sammy’s Odyssey HMD is the only one I actually have any interest in as well... but I’m not going to even consider springing for it until in-depth reviews hit and software support for it has been proven solid within SteamVR. I’m also surprised that it is only going to be offered/sold within the US. As the “flagship” HMD as to specs in the Mickeysoft HMD line-up, you would think they would be pushing it worldwide.
 
Nay - if I had a gaming laptop I could see selling the Rift and doing it, but otherwise there's pretty much zero reason to get one and zero reason to have more than one headset. Maybe slightly better visuals (maybe worse due to ghosting and optics), worse tracking and controllers, way less software (at least for now) and slightly easier setup for $400? I fail to see any compelling reason to buy one instead of a Rift unless you have a mobile gaming setup, let alone getting one if you already have a Rift.
 
I couldn't imagine why anyone would want this over the Rift or Vive. The price point alone is barely lower than the Rift.
 
noko said:
Here is a video by Microsoft, cringe worthy and at times puking might be preferable. Apple stollen presentation style, herding of the yippies. That said you might find some interesting stuff in it, then again it will most likely leave a foul memory in the process:

Click to expand...


Going by that video demonstration I question the inside-out tracking method's ability to track the controllers. The demonstrator's in-game hands were displaying obvious jerky movements and, unless he had his hands in that awkward idle position, it doesn't seem like it can track hands when you have them by your sides which is the normal resting position.

We probably do need to move away from needing external sensors for ease of setup but this given that this is coming out a couple years after HTC and Oculus' offerings you'd think it would be a bit more fully baked.

Hopefully they have demo units at the MS stores so I can check them out.
 
It's doubtful that I'll wind up buying anything from the first batch, even the Samsung Odyssey. I've already coughed up $800 for the Rift and Touch. (Yeah, imagine my reaction in hindsight now that I know it's half the price in just a year and a half from release...)

Anything beyond that is going to have to be a significant step up on all fronts.

Tracking outside of the HMD camera array's line of sight is a big problem for the controllers, given how many games rely on the player reaching behind their shoulder or back to grab something (shotgun/plasma rifles in Robo Recall, tablet map in Onward, etc.) that is easily done with the Rift and Vive's tracking systems. Sure, not having to set up base stations for tracking is cool, but this is a very real problem.
 
If it was double the res of my Rift, I would consider it, only after it has been out for a while. Vive/Rift work great right now. I am happy that others are making VR headsets since it drives up competition.
 
The Odyssey doesn't have a flip-up display like every other Windows VR unit. Somewhat tempers my excitement.
Hagrid said:
If it was double the res of my Rift, I would consider it, only after it has been out for a while. Vive/Rift work great right now. I am happy that others are making VR headsets since it drives up competition.
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Rift is 2160x1200. Odyssey is 2880x1600. That's 77.7 percent more pixels. Not double but it's a significant increase.

I was ready to preorder Odyssey but I found it doesn't have a flip-up display like all the other Windows units. Now I'm in limbo. It would help if there was more information about the LG SteamVR release.
 
BecauseScience said:
The Odyssey doesn't have a flip-up display like every other Windows VR unit. Somewhat tempers my excitement.


Rift is 2160x1200. Odyssey is 2880x1600. That's 77.7 percent more pixels. Not double but it's a significant increase.

I was ready to preorder Odyssey but I found it doesn't have a flip-up display like all the other Windows units. Now I'm in limbo. It would help if there was more information about the LG SteamVR release.
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The resolution increase should be significant, what I am more interested in is better colors. Vive is rather washed out which for me is worst then the screen door effect. These look so easy to just remove and put back on, flipping up, while it could be nice at times, does not make that much difference at least for me.

We just need some solid reviews on these and so far the biggest handicapped looks to be more with software as in not SteamVR ready. Microsoft store - hell no. Next will be tracking, it should at least be similar as in quality with what is on the market and ideally be better, as in larger play areas supported.
 
Getting back to the cringe worthy video:
  • Microsoft claims
    • Plug it in and it will just work
    • Take it with you and it will just work on other computers as in your friends
    • A perfect pairing, an unrivaled experience, an experience not available on anybody else's platform or device this holiday
    • Effortless setup
    • Inside out tracking will precisely track every move and ALL of your gestures (hmm I wonder if the middle finger gesture will work now?)
  • Plus you get an extension to the Microsoft store that will tell you what you should get (recommendations for your Cliff house)
Now I do find the integration of your desktop and Windows program inside of VR a pretty strong selling point for me. Input via keyboard would seem very limited unless one can have your chair and real keyboard/mouse represented transparently. Otherwise your apps will be read only, voice to text could be used where you could, plus some programs could use the controllers.

The conference ability looks like a joke and comical at best. In it's current form I don't see that working at all for anything serious. It will be a sad day if something like that is used for partying or socializing in general.
 
BecauseScience said:
The Odyssey doesn't have a flip-up display like every other Windows VR unit. Somewhat tempers my excitement.


Rift is 2160x1200. Odyssey is 2880x1600. That's 77.7 percent more pixels. Not double but it's a significant increase.

I was ready to preorder Odyssey but I found it doesn't have a flip-up display like all the other Windows units. Now I'm in limbo. It would help if there was more information about the LG SteamVR release.
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I want to wait until next year to decide. That will give the other VR systems a good shakedown with lot's of reviews. Only reason I have a Rift is because it was free. But dam I love it!
 
Well I wonder if even a 1080 Ti could be limiting with the Samsung due to being 1.7x the number of pixels. Will be interesting to see how resolution affects the performance on these. I guess turning down settings is always an option and also running them at 60fps as well, which I am not to sure how that will affect the VR experience. I do know 45fps is shit in VR.
 
noko said:
Well I wonder if even a 1080 Ti could be limiting with the Samsung due to being 1.7x the number of pixels. Will be interesting to see how resolution affects the performance on these. I guess turning down settings is always an option and also running them at 60fps as well, which I am not to sure how that will affect the VR experience. I do know 45fps is shit in VR.
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I think a 1070/980ti is probably the lowest I would go on a Vive/Rift. I have had no problem with SS at 1.6 and a 980ti.
1.7x the pixels and yeah, I would say 1080ti if you want the 90fps. VR is going to really push card makers to step it up which I hope they do!
 
Hagrid said:
I think a 1070/980ti is probably the lowest I would go on a Vive/Rift. I have had no problem with SS at 1.6 and a 980ti.
1.7x the pixels and yeah, I would say 1080ti if you want the 90fps. VR is going to really push card makers to step it up which I hope they do!
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Yes indeed, now there are a number of features that the hardware is capable of (higher resolution at what you are looking at etc.) that is not incorporated yet while some of those will require eye tracking would also help in performance. That too should push the headset developers to work with the hardware better as well. Hopefully with Windows Mixed Reality, it will get the number of headsets up to entice more development into VR content.
 
4K gaming monitors are becoming more popular/common as well as folks gaming on 4K TV's... there's also a large and growing groundswell of VR adopters that simply want higher resolution capable VR HMD's. I'm completely sold on VR and very ready for Gen 2 with 4k per eye.

Perhaps this will create a strong enough push/demand for more capable GPUs and it will help get Nvidia and AMD into gear to further accelerate their innovations as to new graphics architectures and technologies. If they can produce cards that can handle 4K gaming smoothly, folks will flock to them. We now just need Volta and whatever comes after Vega to arrive.
 
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Hagrid said:
I think a 1070/980ti is probably the lowest I would go on a Vive/Rift. I have had no problem with SS at 1.6 and a 980ti.
1.7x the pixels and yeah, I would say 1080ti if you want the 90fps. VR is going to really push card makers to step it up which I hope they do!
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I think any of the 6gb+ cards will push the MR headsets. Oculus and Vive both supersample anyway, which won't be necessary to do on these headsets presumably, so will be effectively sending the same pixels to the windows MR headset, they'll just be able to display all of them. ASW/ATW technology works pretty well to where 45fps is the minimum for a good experience. I've only seen artifacts once when there was an accident in an iRacing race and a bunch of dust got kicked up while simultaneously dropping the fps to where ASW kicked in and it was only for an instant, then either the fps recovered or the dust was in enough of the frame for it not to be noticeable anymore, so really I don't see any higher requirements for these headsets. Yeah, if you're a graphics whore you want a 1080ti, but if you're a graphics whore you want that anyway, regardless of VR or not. If you just want to enjoy the game, even a 1050ti seems to do a pretty good job in most stuff.
 
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I wonder if anyone else will come forth with Windows Mixed Reality headsets?

As a side note, Apple is being left in the dust with VR - I think this is a big mistake on their part and very short sighted - I would expect them to be one of the first and definitely with some innovative solutions.

I would also expect Microsoft to have open up their eco system to Vive and Oculus owners as well - As for SteamVR support - really sounds like they did not want that but had to make that decision because they would have shit for content otherwise. With all the time this was in development, SteamVR I would think would have been very much ready.
 
noko said:
As a side note, Apple is being left in the dust with VR - I think this is a big mistake on their part and very short sighted - I would expect them to be one of the first and definitely with some innovative solutions.
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That's because Apple's GPU options are a total joke, and they replaced the one expandable system they had left with a highly proprietary trash can that has overheating problems and hasn't been updated in three or four years, after which Apple had to openly apologize for neglecting their pro/power user audience. It got so bad that Oculus outright stopped supporting OS X/macOS in their SDK before the CV1 released, though that doesn't explain why they dropped Linux too.

Apple's trying to play catch-up with Thunderbolt 3.0 external GPU options, and in fact have some devkits with Radeon RX 580s in such enclosures specifically for VR support. Too little, too late, though, because they've already lost a lot of ground from neglecting the Mac Pro (what with the iMac Pro being an overpriced stop-gap measure and all rather than being the expandable machine that Power Mac and cheese grater Mac Pro owners loved) and mostly sell computers to people who think Intel integrated graphics are just fine for a computer costing four figures.

If they were real smart about it, though... you know how they sell all these iPhones, right? Well, upgrade the Lightning connector to something that has the required video input bandwidth (I'd suggest Thunderbolt 3.0 outright, but that would mean USB-C and Apple loves MFi licensing revenue on Lightning peripherals too much), provide a cheap smartphone dock ala Gear VR or Daydream, and there you have it, a massive audience of potential VR users that integrates nicely within their closed ecosystem that they're so fond of. Tie that in with ARKit, and they have the potential to make a sudden upset despite being late to the party, kinda like the iPod and iPhone initially were.
 
I want to buy one, but is there any preliminary info of how well it could support steamvr?
 
yadinx said:
I want to buy one, but is there any preliminary info of how well it could support steamvr?
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Based on what I've heard from people in the closed beta, it's seamless for both optimized titles and those using standard controllers (i.e. the Xbox controller). Only a few titles have been optimized specifically for Windows MR, thus far; time will tell how many developers get on board. I have yet to hear anything about how well (or if) titles using motion controllers which haven't been optimized will work.

If you want more info on what I mean by "optimized", here are the guidelines Microsoft has provided to developers: Using SteamVR with Windows Mixed Reality
 
yadinx said:
I want to buy one, but is there any preliminary info of how well it could support steamvr?
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Given the easy (zero) setup, low cost, and wide availability I expect the install base will grow fast. Tech-clueless parents will go with Windows VR or PSVR this Christmas. The Windows name carries a certain weight with the masses. They aren't aware of the things we care about. FOV, tracking accuracy, API compatibility, god rays, and SDE are all meaningless to them.

SteamVR developers will do what it takes to enable their games once the install base is big enough.
 
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So just tried the Lenovo windows "Mixed reality" (it was just VR lol) and here my impressions.

Pros: it's light, felt lighter than my rift but not a huge difference. It was comfortable, not as good as my rift but better than a vive with a stock strap. Tracking worked well for what it was, I was able to shoot a guy in super hot at a 90 degree angle from where I was looking. Didn't notice any major SDE (maybe even slightly better than my rift) and no god rays like my rift suffers from when I a dark scene with a bright object. It's super fucking or, zero sensors means that you have no sensor install or calibration to worry about. Makes it great for
Travel.

Cons: right now it's library is small. They still have some bugs to fix, the whole demo just crashed mid demo and the entire software had to be restarted. Tacking isn't as good as the rift or vive. I did notice some small jumps when moving fast and Inc rand a while I would lose control for a split second. Best example Ian holding my gun near the triangle in super hot it would randomly stop registering my as holding the grab button down that start again causing me to grab the triangle when I didn't try to.

Overall for the same price I would stick with a rift over this but it's got promise.
 
Basically, this is Microsoft just doing their "Me to!" dance. Calling it "Mixed Reality" and using this term over and over to try and differentiate themselves as unique and special when in fact this is simply VR. Typical MS playing their copy/catch-up game along the lines of the Zune, Windows Phone, MS Surface, and now MR.

The only thing that Microsoft's VR offering really has going for it is the inside-out tracking. This does make the setup easier for the non-techie, hardware clueless out there. But, this is done at the cost of slightly inferior tracking, especially where the controllers are concerned. The MR controllers are somewhat clunky and look like a failed cloning experiment in which some in-breeding occurred between a Vive and a Rift controller.

None of the Windows MR offerings (save for perhaps the upcoming Samsung Odyssey) are really going to entice anyone with an established VR setup. All of the other MR offerings really seem more of a lateral move then a real step up given that the positives simply don't outweigh all the negatives they bring with them. Clunkier controllers, slightly inferior tracking (especially where the controllers are concerned), unrefined software/drivers (will improve over time hopefully), poor game support (again should improve over time), shaky SteamVR support starting off (will take a while to solidify), and a really piss-poor MS Store app ecosystem.

I don't think this is going to be the big hit that they think it is going to be based solely on the fact that most of the clueless non-tech folks simply don't have PC's with the minimum specs required to drive this. And there isn't a lot here to really compel existing Rift/Vive owners to want to plunk down the cash to get this just to gain at best a comparable VR experience. The jury is still out on the Samsung offering though as its resolution is significantly better than the other MR offerings. But then again, at $499, it's also $100 more than the Rift. I see this as VR version 1.5 with some pretty big drawbacks. And a lot of VR version 1.0 adopters are really holding out for and wanting VR version 2.0.

If anything, Microsoft's push into the VR space will hopefully help the overall cause, but its somewhat disappointing that they rushed into this with a somewhat rushed to market, half-baked approach rather than a true next-gen VR tour de force offering.
 
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Still, this is a standardized version of VR with multiple sets available. Inside out is a plus if it is accurate enough plus if peripherals can be added - looks like it can at a cheaper cost. Also Microsoft may be more effective in pushing VR in other areas such as business, education, simulators, medical etc. Professional use of Mixed reality VR or AR or a combination of both could be what will make this the next big jump in how we use computers.

I am tending towards the Samsung but in no hurry either. Once SteamVR is relatively stable and support Windows Mixed Reality headsets good is when I will make the final decision unless a killer sale appears.
 
noko said:
Still, this is a standardized version of VR with multiple sets available. Inside out is a plus if it is accurate enough plus if peripherals can be added - looks like it can at a cheaper cost. Also Microsoft may be more effective in pushing VR in other areas such as business, education, simulators, medical etc. Professional use of Mixed reality VR or AR or a combination of both could be what will make this the next big jump in how we use computers.

I am tending towards the Samsung but in no hurry either. Once SteamVR is relatively stable and support Windows Mixed Reality headsets good is when I will make the final decision unless a killer sale appears.
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Agreed, my boss has been very interested in VR for sales purposes. We design everything in AutoCAD/inventor and this can all be imported to another program that allows you to view everything we design with an oculus or vive.

With these new windows VR systems requiring no external sensor setup we could make a super portable laptop demo station we can bring to customer offices to show off potential designs for some of our stuff (we make tons of custom mobile equipment and such)
 
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noko said:
Still, this is a standardized version of VR with multiple sets available. Inside out is a plus if it is accurate enough plus if peripherals can be added - looks like it can at a cheaper cost. Also Microsoft may be more effective in pushing VR in other areas such as business, education, simulators, medical etc. Professional use of Mixed reality VR or AR or a combination of both could be what will make this the next big jump in how we use computers.

I am tending towards the Samsung but in no hurry either. Once SteamVR is relatively stable and support Windows Mixed Reality headsets good is when I will make the final decision unless a killer sale appears.
Click to expand...


Totally agree that inside-out tracking is the future.... It just hasn't been perfected yet and MickeySoft's entry isn't quite fully baked either.
Until controllers themselves get inside-out tracking, I feel external camera/constellation tracking will still rule as to accurate/dependable tracking for the near future... at least until all the kinks are fully worked out with inside-out.
 
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Youn said:
If you haven't already, see Oculus Santa Cruz... all reports suggest it's working pretty damn well, let's hope it comes to the market soon
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Yeah, they took the fairly obvious (in retrospect) step of putting 4 cameras on the headset, one on each corner, to do the inside out tracking. This gives almost complete tracking except for right behind the user's head, plus they have a lot of experience in using camera based tracking. However, the hardware pushing the setup will be alot less powerful than the WindowsMR and Rift/Vive. We'll see if they can figure out how to bring the inside out tracking to Rift 2 and keep it wireless, as that will be the differentiator. I don't see Windows MR as being that great, you're still tethered to the PC and the tracking is worse. Yeah, setup is a little easier but tbh, setup only takes 5 minutes for a Rift once you've done it a couple of times. WindowsMR will make a nice portable setup using a backpack setup as then you don't need anything external, but you still sacrifice iq/performance vs. a pc, and that's a presumably small market vs. the overall VR market due to the cost.
 
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