Which VR headset to buy in 2020?

reaper12

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I canceled my G2 preorder and bought a Quest 2. Let me tell you I am absolutely blown away by this thing. And yes, this will read as hyperbole because I've never really experienced VR before, so as I type this I'm still riding that first time VR high. I just tried the Beat Saber demo and I'm so overwhelmed with joy that I have tears in my eyes. This is like experiencing video games for the first time again. Can't wait to try HL: Alyx.

Honestly I went in expecting this thing to be garbage because it's dirt cheap. But I am pleasantly surprised. No screen door effect. There is blurriness outside of the sweet spot, but I suspect that this is normal for VR. Once you're immersed in a game that blurriness fades away.

I love reading peoples first reaction to VR. Your reaction pretty much mirrors mine when I tried the Rift Civ 1 back in 2016. Thought I had wasted my money because I hated 3D and the videos on Youtube didn't look great. But when I put on the headset. wow!! I was blown away and it's exactly like you said. It was like experiencing games for the first time.

If you liked Beat Saber, you should consider buying Pistol Whip as well.
 

reaper12

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Believe me, I am SO tempted to do the same. Especially because of the constant delays of shipping the damn things into europe and HP's radio silence on burning questions that people have. And I know a shop near me gets new stock next tuesday. I could walk in, get it and order some cheap Link compatible USB cable from Amazon and maybe a good bluetooth headset on black friday. Also I would get a headset that I know would have good tracking with very little blindspots. Only reason why I have not done so already is because I am also a videophile movie freak and I'd like to have the very best screens for movie watching and am unsure if Quest 2 is good enough.

*edit* God damnit, maybe I should just get it and if it turns out to be good enough then I can cancel the Reverb G2. If not then return the Quest 2 and keep on waiting for the G2.

*edit2* Does Oculus Quest 2 come with free copy of Robo Recall? PCVR Rift did. That is a fantastic game to dip your toes into VR gunplay. And fantastic arcade style game in general.
My advice would be, ask yourself what type of games do you play the most? If it's mainly Sim games get the Reverb. If it's mainly roomscale games get the Quest 2.

If it' 50/50 get both ;):D Only half joking with this part.

For myself. After getting used to playing games wirelessly with the Quest 2, I can't go back wired gaming. I would take a drop in visual quality to stay wireless. With the update the Link cable is now better visually than using Virtual desktop. But the wire takes me completely out of the game and I am back to using it using Virtual Desktop for PCVR games. It's just more enjoyable.
 

MaZa

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My advice would be, ask yourself what type of games do you play the most? If it's mainly Sim games get the Reverb. If it's mainly roomscale games get the Quest 2.

If it' 50/50 get both ;):D Only half joking with this part.

For myself. After getting used to playing games wirelessly with the Quest 2, I can't go back wired gaming. I would take a drop in visual quality to stay wireless. With the update the Link cable is now better visually than using Virtual desktop. But the wire takes me completely out of the game and I am back to using it using Virtual Desktop for PCVR games. It's just more enjoyable.


Well... It really is 50/50. 🤣 I play a lot of games sitting down but I also do stand up games like Blade and Sorcery or anything that requires me to swing a weapon. How is the compression ratio with Link cable these days? Any artifacts?
 

reaper12

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Well... It really is 50/50. 🤣 I play a lot of games sitting down but I also do stand up games like Blade and Sorcery or anything that requires me to swing a weapon. How is the compression ratio with Link cable these days? Any artifacts?

Ah, haha, time to save up I guess :)

Once you set the bitrate to 250Mbs you really have to go looking for artifacts. They are going to add this to the next update to the Quest 2.

Have you a headset at the moment?
 

MaZa

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Ah, haha, time to save up I guess :)

Once you set the bitrate to 250Mbs you really have to go looking for artifacts. They are going to add this to the next update to the Quest 2.

Have you a headset at the moment?

Yeah I still have my CV1. Getting really old but still functional.
 

reaper12

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Yeah I still have my CV1. Getting really old but still functional.

Nothing wrong with the Civ 1 at all. It has held up really well.

And, just want to answer your question. The Quest 2 doesn't come with any free games. But they are doing a deal for Black Friday if you buy a Quest 2 you get Asgard's Wrath free. But you probably have it already. Also, there is a good selection of crossbuy games.
 

MaZa

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Nothing wrong with the Civ 1 at all. It has held up really well.

And, just want to answer your question. The Quest 2 doesn't come with any free games. But they are doing a deal for Black Friday if you buy a Quest 2 you get Asgard's Wrath free. But you probably have it already. Also, there is a good selection of crossbuy games.

Yup. Already played through it but I do intend on making a second playthrough with a new headset. The ennviroments looked amazing with CV1, I can't even imagine what the game is like with either Q2 or G2.
 

BassTek

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I decided to go with the Quest 2 since it's so cheap and is in stock. If for some reason it doesn't cut it as a sim headset I can always use it for casual VR games but I think it will be fine as my first headset.

I used an OG Vive at a friend's place a couple times which was my only VR experience so far. I'm excited to try out ACC and iRacing in VR!
 

Chief Blur Buster

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And, just want to answer your question. The Quest 2 doesn't come with any free games.
Ah, haha, time to save up I guess :)

Once you set the bitrate to 250Mbs you really have to go looking for artifacts. They are going to add this to the next update to the Quest 2.

Have you a headset at the moment?

But they are doing a deal for Black Friday if you buy a Quest 2 you get Asgard's Wrath free. But you probably have it already. Also, there is a good selection of crossbuy games.
Rift and Quest 2 here. PC VR, both wired and wireless. Pros/cons.

For cordless freedom, even at 80 megabits/sec H.EVC it's hard to see the artifacts too. The main difference I see is the 4:2:2 aritfacts of NVENC but it's hard to see due to the near-4K resolution of Quest 2. But I hear 4:4:4 video compression is coming.

I tend to prefer 80 megabits/sec WiFi 6 instead of higher bandwidth with the cable, because I like the completely cordless freedom. You do want to purchase a second WiFi 5 or 6 router for use in the same room where you most frequently use Quest 2, dedicated to ultra-low-latency cordless streaming -- even if you already have a WiFi 5/6 router at the opposite end of the home. Hotspots don't work well, USB WiFi don't work well, you need Virtual Desktop + SideQuest + high performance gigabit router in the same room dedicated only to streaming PCVR games (Half Life Alyx) to the Quest 2 cordlessly. I can't tell the lag difference of corded and cordless operation, after careful tweaking and connecting at about a gigabit/sec to the WiFi router at only +5ms lag relative to direct corded.

For longer wireless play sessions to PC VR, I use tiny Charmast 10400 18watt-output power banks USB cable into power bank in my pocket (smallest USB PD power banks) -- so I can longer VR freedom even at the maximum Quest 2 overclock permissible via SideQuest/Virtual Desktop.

Rift has better blacks but Quest 2 has no wires & far higher resolution & less motion blur (0.3ms MPRT) than the OLED (2ms MPRT). If you play only space games, the grey blacks are sometimes a letdown. But for bright material, Quest 2 graphics are superior to OLED. The Index/Quest LCDs are the best strobed LCDs I've ever seen, even though I wish for upcoming local dimming to fix the grey blacks. Hopefully Valve Index 2 or Quest 3 will have local dimming, I saw a prototype pre-covid at CES 2020.

Also Quest 2 can optionally be forced to a 60Hz single-strobe mode, so it's perfect for 60fps YouTubes in the virtual theater with zero stutter / zero blur (0.3ms CRT clarity).

There's a new FAQ on how to use MAME HLSL with Virtual Desktop, to emulate a CRT tube inside VR, while taking advantage of Quest 2's 0.3ms MPRT CRT-clarity feature.

Zero strobe crosstalk at TestUFO for all 256x256 GtG's, it must be a near perfect GtG100% LCD for strobing. Standing ovation to engineers achieving such a perceptually GtG-perfect LCD now used in the newest LCD VR.

So hats off to whoever invented that VR LCD. Its main flaw is the blacks, but that's fixable by upcoming VR-FALD (Full Array Local Dimming) MicroLED backlight panels. I hope to see 10,000-LEDcount to 50,000-LEDcount MicroLED FALD in VR eventually, then blooming becomes nonissue (smaller than bloom around a CRT electron beam). Hope they don't wimp on FALD LED count, bloom is amplified in VR otherwise.

New VR LCDs now have far less motion blur than VR OLEDs because of a law-of-physics called Talbot-Plateau Theorem, so perfect LCD blacks (fixable) is mostly the remaining problem to fix, with an overkill LED-count MicroLED FALD to eliminate FALD blooming (but still far fewer LEDs than a direct-view MicroLED).
 
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flegg

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Rift and Quest 2 here. PC VR, both wired and wireless. Pros/cons.

For cordless freedom, even at 80 megabits/sec H.EVC it's hard to see the artifacts too. The main difference I see is the 4:2:2 aritfacts of NVENC but it's hard to see due to the near-4K resolution of Quest 2. But I hear 4:4:4 video compression is coming.

I tend to prefer 80 megabits/sec WiFi 6 instead of higher bandwidth with the cable, because I like the completely cordless freedom. You do want to purchase a second WiFi 5 or 6 router for use in the same room where you most frequently use Quest 2, dedicated to ultra-low-latency cordless streaming -- even if you already have a WiFi 5/6 router at the opposite end of the home. Hotspots don't work well, USB WiFi don't work well, you need Virtual Desktop + SideQuest + high performance gigabit router in the same room dedicated only to streaming PCVR games (Half Life Alyx) to the Quest 2 cordlessly. I can't tell the lag difference of corded and cordless operation, after careful tweaking and connecting at about a gigabit/sec to the WiFi router at only +5ms lag relative to direct corded.

For longer wireless play sessions to PC VR, I use tiny Charmast 10400 18watt-output power banks USB cable into power bank in my pocket (smallest USB PD power banks) -- so I can longer VR freedom even at the maximum Quest 2 overclock permissible via SideQuest/Virtual Desktop.

Rift has better blacks but Quest 2 has no wires & far higher resolution & less motion blur (0.3ms MPRT) than the OLED (2ms MPRT). If you play only space games, the grey blacks are sometimes a letdown. But for bright material, Quest 2 graphics are superior to OLED. The Index/Quest LCDs are the best strobed LCDs I've ever seen, even though I wish for upcoming local dimming to fix the grey blacks. Hopefully Valve Index 2 or Quest 3 will have local dimming, I saw a prototype pre-covid at CES 2020.

Also Quest 2 can optionally be forced to a 60Hz single-strobe mode, so it's perfect for 60fps YouTubes in the virtual theater with zero stutter / zero blur (0.3ms CRT clarity).

There's a new FAQ on how to use MAME HLSL with Virtual Desktop, to emulate a CRT tube inside VR, while taking advantage of Quest 2's 0.3ms MPRT CRT-clarity feature.

Zero strobe crosstalk at TestUFO for all 256x256 GtG's, it must be a near perfect GtG100% LCD for strobing. Standing ovation to engineers achieving such a perceptually GtG-perfect LCD now used in the newest LCD VR.

So hats off to whoever invented that VR LCD. Its main flaw is the blacks, but that's fixable by upcoming VR-FALD (Full Array Local Dimming) MicroLED backlight panels. I hope to see 10,000-LEDcount to 50,000-LEDcount MicroLED FALD in VR eventually, then blooming becomes nonissue (smaller than bloom around a CRT electron beam). Hope they don't wimp on FALD LED count, bloom is amplified in VR otherwise.

New VR LCDs now have far less motion blur than VR OLEDs because of a law-of-physics called Talbot-Plateau Theorem, so perfect LCD blacks (fixable) is mostly the remaining problem to fix, with an overkill LED-count MicroLED FALD to eliminate FALD blooming (but still far fewer LEDs than a direct-view MicroLED).
Thank you so much for this review. Extremely helpful. I really dislike the OLED blur. Do you think BFI could realistically remedy this?
Sounds like Quest 2 could finally get me into VR, though the Facebooking and head strap give me pause.
 

Chief Blur Buster

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About Facebook, it's your personal opinion.

That said, I have a variety of VR headsets here. You sound like you haven't tried VR. So let me give you a summary of the two Oculus I have:

My "Blur Busters Flavoured" Intro to VR for Experienced [H] Gamers Who Are VR Newbies

The HTC Vive Pro and the Valve Index is the best SteamVR headsets in my experience, well integrated (even if you lose out on the Oculus app store). You hear a lot of good things. You pay a lot of money ($1000+) and is also creme de la creme for PC VR. There's Pimax too, but I don't have much experience with that model at the moment.

Original Rift is the "first good PC VR" that came out as we know -- you can get those low-persistence (2ms MPRT) CV1 models pretty cheap on eBay, like literally just $200 or less. But get a cheap $25 USB3 4-port PCIe card or similar for much more reliable USB3 for Oculus sensors. And get active USB repeater extension cables (CableMatters works pretty well for me, including 16 and 33 feet). Lots of setup hassle, but really really cheap for good quality VR if you already have at least a GTX 980+ or GTX 1060+ league GPU, preferably 1080 Ti+.

But, Quest 2 is so easy to set up. Shockingly so. It can be mailed to a nursing home and a 70-year-old can successfully set up VR since no cables, no computer is needed. It has an in-VR setup wizard that allows you to draw a rectangle in the middle of your room.

Whereupon if you walk too close to your walls or coffeetable, it suddenly shows a blue Holodeck Grid, and if you breach the grid, you see real life video (thanks to the cameras built into the headset). So suddenly your room becomes visible of you walk too close. No sensors needed -- no LightHouses, no Oculus sensors. And you can RoomScale any room in less than 10 seconds. It automatically recognizes the room you are in, and memorizes multiple RoomScale memories. If it fails to recognize, it asks you to draw the boundaries on the floor again which you can quickly do in 10 seconds and start playing again.

It's just a relief to put on a VR headset and immediately begin playing -- no setup, no fuss -- and do it again after bringing the headset to your friend's, your family, etc. I'd rather Facebook move its profit model away from politics and towards Steam/Apple/Google style stuff that is less privacy invasive. Clearly, I've purchased about $200 of Quest 2 games since I got my Quest 2, because of the incredible convenience. But I've opted out of some of the privacy-invasive features. I don't mind FTC throwing the book at Facebook for the other practices, but I'll continue to support VR innovation.

RoomScale so easy to setup that a 70-year old nursing home resident did it without help

Still. John Carmack is ****ing brilliant in what he did with Quest 2 -- I'm amazed a 70 year old can set up a Quest 2 unattended, without help. RoomScale too! With the video streamed to an iPad being watched by the other people laughing at the Beat Sabering. Quest 2 clearly is winning a lot of fans that looks to just about massively grow the VR market -- much like Apple did to the smartphone market. Rising tide lifts all boats.

This ain't your complex setup of a Original Rift / HTC VR setup process with lots of sensors and cables, and struggling with enough high-speed USB ports that keep glitching on a computer, creating a very bad VR setup experience. This is a 2020 sensorless / computerless headset with a fully self contained computer more powerful than some of the original year-2012s computer running the original Oculus Rift! With more detailed graphics and much sharper graphics in some games than that 2012 games powering the original Oculus Rift -- and no computer required. At least, if you download the AAA titles like Star Wars Tales From The Galaxy's Edge and walk into the big open spaces staring out to the canyon, wondering how the hell it's all being done without a computer connected to the headset. Sure, an RTX 3090 with Half Life Alyx will always be more detailed with much better textures (and you can play that on a Quest 2), but its GPU is powerful enough that you won't be exclusively playing PC VR, simply from sheer play-anywhere convenience.

As a pure geek -- I can tell you up front, the Quest 2 is one incredibly self-contained piece of technological kit, made possible by the miracles of modern tech -- strobed displays, mobile phone tech, etc -- mobile GPUs, motion processors (gyroscope/accelerometer) that enable reliable 6dof operation -- and cheap smartphone camera sensors for the 4 camera lenses built into the headset. The inside-out tracking is par excellence, better tracking than the external Oculus Rift sensors (except when your hands are behind you) -- you move a millimeter in real life, the VR environment moves a millimeter -- it's uncannily sensitive in a brightly lit room (turn on your room's light to allow the Quest 2 cameras to track the room well). If you have never tried out VR, you will be shocked how you missed the amazing progress of VR did in the last 8 years. The near-4K graphics of a Quest 2 is better than most 5-year-old PCs, and its overclocked Snapdragon GPU is so quietly fan-cooled through a very clever slit-vent that you don't even realize it's a fan-cooled mobile GPU. Most VR games don't show off the power of this mobile GPU, but a few generate graphics almost as good as PC VR but without needing any computer.

No wonder game sales are suddenly skyrocketing on Oculus Store by an order of magnitude practically overnight. The Quest 2 is a masterclass of easy consumer-ready VR with all the smart Holodeck RoomScale advantages (without sensors & without computer). There should be no problem selling 10 millions of the headset model like Facebook predicts -- most people aren't too fussed about the privacy stuff (just wary) but are so downright impressed that 3 people I know impulse-purchased the $299 Quest from Best Buy, downright impressed how cheaply all-inclusive the VR experience is. It is 100x less dizzying than a Real3D movie or Disney3D movie, especially if you stick to green-circle "Comfortable" rated games. (Non-gamers, don't be tempted to download the rollercoaster app...)

It is somewhat scary to think, but I think Oculus Store will be the Steam of VR within 5 years because the Quest 2 headset is selling briskly like Nintendo Wii's in this COVID pandemic. (See the 70-year-old example and the 50% nongamer market example). I no longer doubt the quote of 10 million Quest 2 sales, but I suspect that is now looking decidedly conservative -- the game developers who have Quest 2 games are a bit shocked (pleasantly) how suddenly sales have gone up faster than predicted.

Certainly costs were cut -- slightly less FOV, more plastic, simpler strap (Which can be treplaced) -- but where it matters (ease + fun + inexpensive), it appears to be bigger bang-for-buck than an XBox or PlayStation console, in terms of wow-per-dollar. Or gym dollar. Or covid vacation dollar. Or virtual theater dollar.

And, with BigScreen app, you can sit in a movie theater seat complete with cupholders. Look around, and see virtual avatars sitting in other seats. But you're actually sitting in a backseat / Amtrak seat / airplane seat. And the screen in front of you is more than 50 feet in size, playing 1080p video files of .MKVs you dumped into your Quest 2's memory, you're looking up and down, seeing the big screen. If you have an Internet connection, Netflix / YouTube / Amazon Prime have big screen VR theater apps too.

Virtual vacations such as the "Alcove" app means 50% of Quest 2 users are not gamers. (Tip: Configure it to waterfront, and relax on the virtual sofa next to the fireplace. Very zen & relaxing). Or playing "Alice in Wonderland" while lying down on sofa (it's like Sierra Quest point-click except in eye-pleasing dollhouse 3D miniature). Or sweating up exercise playing Beat Saber losing 3 pounds in one week (great winter exercise machine!). If you're looking for gym equipment costing $300, look no further: Quest 2.

Quest 2 surprised me in that I use it more often than any of my dedicated PC VR headsets, even for playing PC VR game over video streaming (80 Mbps). The ability to go fully cordless is great. Biggest (minor) disappointment with Quest 2 for me, is clearly the imperfect LCD blacks but largely compensated by the lack of screendoor and the reduced motion blur. But even poorer blacks too, is later technologically solvable in the future with MicroLED FALD (local dimming), of which I saw a prototype of.

Instant RoomScale Setup + Multiple RoomScale = Spontaneous VR in Any Room

I love the 10-second instant in-VR RoomScale setup to begin immediately playing RoomScale VR in a room that the Quest 2 had never been in before! And multi-roomscale memory without a computer means randomly using different rooms of your house isn't a hassle. The only way to go faster is photogrammetry-scan the room to automatically create RoomScale in 1 second -- maybe Apple will do that, who knows. I can even use my backyard (at night; well lit with patio lights; doesn't work with any sunlight) for a gigantic RoomScale, it supports 25x25 feet RoomScale without the need to buy sensors/lighthouses.

It's as magically easy RoomScale as it gets for now, even if it occasionally doesn't recognize the room (lighting angle, day vs night) but I can draw the Roomscale again in 5 seconds fast (or 10 seconds meticulously) without taking off the headset, thanks to its brilliantly easy RoomScale setup.

More competition is welcome. Quest 2 probably will spur Google to reactivate Daydream VR, or Apple to enter the VR market (with Apple M1!), or Valve to create a standalone VR. Strictly focussing on geek (ignoring the politics) -- Quest 2 truly sets the benchmark in hybrid/standalone VR -- it's a league of its own by more than an order of magnitude.

But. Quest 2. Just a total masterclass of tech convergence and VR ease -- and I've have and/or tried HTC Vive, Vive Pro, Valve Index, Rift DK1, DK2, CV1, Pimax. Hats off to John Carmack in that brilliance. Those types of hybrid self-contained headsets is the Way of the Future -- play PC VR games and self-contained VR games for show-and-tell, friend/family, travel, any-room convenience.

HTC Vive Pro with TP Cast gives much better blacks, great resolution, and better dark-game; but you're paying a full Quest 2 price just merely only for the TP Cast wireless adaptor. While wireless capability already included with Quest 2 (via SideQuest Virtual Desktop; if you have WiFi 5/6 router in same room or nearly so). And the all-in cost (Vive Pro OLED + TP Link + PC + GPU + Extra Lighthouses for large rooms) with mandatory PC is literally almost an order of magnitude more expensive than a Quest 2. For pretty much the same wow RoomScale experience for most people who aren't paying attention to the number of polygons (for good in-VR apps, the resolution and edge-sharpness is even about the same! Just texture and shader detail is lower with the on-VR GPU). And you can bring your Quest 2 anywhere and setup a RoomScale anywhere in 10 seconds, right on the spot. The convenience in many cases, massively outweighs the graphics detail difference between a top-class overclocked mobile GPU (Quest 2's overclocked Snapdragon 865) versus entry level discrete GPU (i.e. 1080 Ti), but you actually get to have cake and eat it too -- play PC VR with Quest 2.

It's the first VR headset I can comfortably tell Grandma / Grandpa / Mom / ad to buy without needing to coach them how to set up VR. Capable of saving nursing homes from covid jail feel without the need for IT staff. RoomScale VR easier than hooking up a Nintendo Wii to a TV! For all of what I said, standing ovation (except for Facebook) -- it's almost as if someone paid me a million dollars to hold my nose -- and try Quest 2 -- and ended up worth it even without the million.

This concludes the "Intro to VR newbies", from my perspective.
 
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Chief Blur Buster

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Thank you so much for this review. Extremely helpful. I really dislike the OLED blur. Do you think BFI could realistically remedy this?
All modern OLED VR is BFI-based too, including original Rift DK2, CV1, Quest 1, HTC Vive, HTC Vive Pro. It is just a 2ms flash BFI for OLED, versus 0.3ms flash BFI for LCD.

All of the good current OLED VR since Rift DK2 is 2ms MPRT, which has half the motion blur of max-setting BFI of an LG CX OLED which is 4ms MPRT. But the Valve Index, the Oculus Rift-S, and the Quest 2 LCD VR has less than 1/10th the motion blur of the best BFI setting of an LG CX OLED! Which is just simply a jawdrop of how fast the custom made VR LCDs are.

Assuming GtG=0ms and source blur is not the bottleneck, motion blur is directly linearly proportional to pixel visibility time. In real world, extremely slow GtG that is a significant percentage of a refresh cycle (or more), can retard the differences of higher and lower refresh rates.

Assuming framerate=Hz motion.
* For an impulsed display (strobed/BFI), motion blur is the visible flash length of the frame.
* For a sample-and-hold display (non-strobed), motion blur is the refresh cycle length.

For a reference of the motion blur generated by various kinds of display, I usually show two charts:

Sample-and-hold displays:

1606810372978.png


Impulsed displays:

1606810379391.png


Mind you, these are fairly old charts for relatively slow motion of 960 pixels/second. VR displays are wider-FOV and higher resolution, allowing eye-tracking for longer periods over a larger number of pixels. The faster the motion the easier to see motion blur (A slow VR head turns can be 8000 pixel/sec).

1ms MPRT at 8000 pixels/sec is 8 pixels of display motion blur above-and-beyond human vision limits.

Thusly, we need sub-millisecond MPRT, because even 1ms MPRT is still too motion-blurry for some content in VR.

For framerate=Hz, display persistence (MPRT 100%) is like a camera shutter. Pixel visibility time is the display motion blur equivalent.

1606810393373.png


We can still see the difference in sports SLR camera shutter 1/60sec versus 1/120sec versus 1/240sec versus 1/480sec versus 1/1000sec.

The same is true for displays, and this is why I am so excited about future low-persistence sample-and-hold (not an oxymoron!) -- the ability to eliminate motion blur without strobing (aka 1000fps at 1000Hz, or 2000fps at 2000Hz). It will take about a decade before that becomes a reality, though.

A good test for VR motion blur is walking up to a virtual sheet of paper (like the sheet of paper sitting on desk in the Robo Recall ready room), kneeling over it, and trying to read the small text on it while nodding your head around (this forces the text to pan back-and-fourth on the VR display, making it prone to display persistence). The difference is night and day with Oculus OLED VR versus Oculus LCD VR -- the LCD is vastly superior in less motion blur. The best VR headsets have motion clarity that doesn't vary with head turning speed.

Holy Grail = "Low Persistence Sample And Hold"

Such ultra-high frame rates will require various wide-ratio frame rate amplification technologies that can increase frame rates by 5:1 or 10:1, which is being conceptualized in the laboratory. Today's frame rate amplification such as Oculus ASW and NVIDIA DLSS 2.0, only does about 2:1 frame rate amplification ratios.

For now, strobing is an excellent humankind band-aid for elimination of display motion blur. The artificial humankind invention of a low finite frame rate to imperfectly simulate analog framerateless real-life motion, is hugely problematic for passing a Holodeck Turing Test (can't tell apart A/B blind test ski goggles versus VR headset), where real life is indistinguishable from VR. However, even strobed VR is still amazing, and I highly recommend trying next-generation VR such as Valve Index or Quest 2.

Today's current contemporary refresh rates are too low to emulate analog real-life motion, without strobing, without motion blur, without stroboscopic effects, without phantom array effects. The only way to do all of that simultaneously is extremely high frame rates at extremely high refresh rates.

Real life does not flicker like a CRT, and neither should a future Star Trek Holodeck. We need low-persistence sample-and-hold to em ulate analog real life motion for reality emulation situations such as VR.

Yes, Blur Busters was born because of strobe technologies, but I'm looking to the future -- low persistence sample-and-hold is the Holy Grail (aka 1000fps+ at 1000Hz+). Remove the black period and fill the whole blackness with contiguous equally brief frames. You keep the MPRT, while removing the blackness. That said, it's a big mountain to climb -- matching 0.3ms MPRT requires ~3300fps ~3300Hz via low-persistence sample-and-hold.

Early tests have dropped a lot of jaws, and anybody who's actually seen low-persistence sample-and-hold thinks that it's the Way of the future. However, it's a bit of an engineering path to get there (GPU-wise, display-wise), but it's definitely no longer unobtainium as it's already been prototyped in the lab.

That said, we need strobing for now this decade until frame rates and refresh rates are sufficiently high enough.

Today, among strobed VR today, currently LCD VR has less motion blur than OLED VR thanks to briefer flashes of pixel visibility per refresh cycle.
 

cybereality

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Really insightful Chief Blur Buster

I actually just ordered a Quest 2 (I've tried a bunch of different headsets, but I've been out of it for a bit).

Your comment definitely makes me feel better about the purchase (still need to wait a few days for delivery).

Thanks.
 

kalston

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Damn, now I know I wasn't crazy when I thought that the LCDs used in those new headsets (I own the Rift S and owned CV1 before) are better than any display I've ever seen (except of course when it comes to the blacks).
 

zeroARMY

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Nice post Chief Blur Buster. I was originally going to go for a Reverb G2 this winter but with the limited availability I grabbed a Quest 2 to tide me over. I might actually completely skip the G2 now, and stick with the Quest 2 for a while. Taking Facebook out the equation, the Quest 2 really is an impressive consumer electronics product release.
 

kalston

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I cancelled my Reverb G2 pre-ordered actually. The feedback from users (as opposed to reviewers) is really not great at all. Chromatic aberration, tiny sweetspots, distortion (wtf), broken headphones, cheap plastic all over. I don't imagine their software stack is nearly as solid as Oculus either. And I'm not sure about the actual quality of the LCDs they are using, in terms of responsiveness or uniformity. Supposedly better than G1 that had noticeable ghosting (eew) but by how much?

I think it's time for me to try a wireless G2. The wifi router is already a few meters away in the same room, with zero obstruction and I get insane speeds on my devices.
 
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DPI

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The feedback from users (as opposed to reviewers) is really not great at all. Chromatic aberration, tiny sweetspots, distortion (wtf), broken headphones, cheap plastic all over. I don't imagine their software stack is nearly as solid as Oculus either.
A lot of teens and first-timers that don't know WTF they're doing and tend to rant and rave about minor things. There's a learning curve to setup of proper PCVR, and the WMR side certainly isn't as elegant as Oculus stack due to how WMR and Steam interrelate. To me the difference between G2 and Quest2 is like PC vs console gaming - the latter is easier to "turn on and play"; the former is technically superior but requires more tweaking.

There's undeniable value to the dummyproof-ness and wireless aspects to Quest 2 - assuming you're okay with Facebook privacy invasion - but for my money, G2 is king at this pricepoint for where it matters most: clarity.
 
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kalston

[H]ard|Gawd
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Maybe. But the clarity of the G2 after the latest link update is actually not that far off the Reverb. Also it's in stock with instant delivery unlike the Reverb (ETA unknown here).

But yeah wireless appeals to me for some specific games (even though my main use of VR is flight sims), and it seems to have reached a point where it's pretty damn good. Clarity isn't quite everything!
 

Chief Blur Buster

Owner of BlurBusters
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Yes, Learning curve for Quest 2 is easy with its standalone ecosystem -- low bar of entry -- and even a cabled Oculus Link is not that much more difficult if you already have a typical modern gaming PC.

However, enabling wireless PC VR feature is slightly trickier. Still easy (less time than it takes to properly wall-install sensors/Lighthouses); just a still-unofficial feature that Quest 2 can do since it won't work with "just any WiFi router".

This advice is also repeated all over the SideQuest / Virtual Desktop forums but this is to save you time and trouble -- you need really good WiFi for perfect wireless PC VR streaming.
However, I'll summarize the advice oft posted elsewhere:

Wireless PC VR Tips With Quest 2

To get wireless PC VR on a Quest 2 is still an unofficial devmode+sideload operation on Quest 2 -- since you have to side-load the SideQuest app to install the "enhanced" version of Virtual Desktop that enables the wireless Quest 2 feature.

So it's more of an advanced PC-user-league tweak operation for perfect wireless PC VR (look ma, no cables!)

1. Separate WiFi router just for VR (clear of other traffic). So buy an extra one. Gives you a dedicated SSID just for your Quest 2. Especailly if your existing WiFi router is one of those cheap ISP inclusions, you actually need to buy a 2nd router (preferably one of those high performance multicore-CPU routers) for low-lag WiFi. Most hotspots and cheap ISP routers is a crappy stutter-fest with Quest 2. You can wire it by Ethernet to your main router, putting other users on your original router, but have a separate WiFi 5/6 router dedicated to just Quest 2 in the same room. Those three-antenna $100-$150 ASUS midrange "gaming routers" usually works fine, but a $20 USB WiFi usually won't work well; hotspotting has a low stutter-free success rate.
2. Put your separate WiFi router in the same room you plan to play PC VR in.
3. Make sure your VR PC / gaming laptop is directly connected to Ethernet to the router.
4. 5 GHz WiFi 5 or 6, to allow a reliable clear 80-100 Mbps H.EVC video (no lag, no artifacts, looks native instead of videolike)

Also, VR Streaming will eat a % of your PC's GPU, so a bit more extra GPU horsepower than needed (e.g. RTX series cards) can help compensate for the PC VR streaming overhead.

If you have a really good router (like those top-of-the-line 8-antenna MU-MIMO routers), you can probably stick to just one router for the whole household if the household is not doing too much other WiFi traffic. But better safe than sorry, and have a dedicated router + dedicated SSID just for your Quest 2, it's easier to force a Quest 2 to 5 GHz if you can turn off the 2.4 GHz feature of your Quest 2 dedicated router.

At least an adequate midrange gaming router router is still a lot cheaper than a TP Cast; These advices can save a lot of tears and crying for wireless PC VR with Quest 2.

Also, if your VR PC is a gaming laptop, PLUG IT IN to power (more GPU power -- In addition to a PC, I also have a Razer laptop with an RTX 2080 and it goes dramatically faster when plugged into wall outlet).

I'm able to play one room away from the router, but slight stutters sometimes pop in and out. So I recommend same-room router though, and making sure your dedicated PC VR router is in the same room.

Another bonus of SideQuest is customizable refresh rate operation (72Hz, 90Hz), the lower frame rate can allow slightly lower-end systems to stream VR successfully. VR is an automatic mandatory framerate=Hz experience; 72fps@72Hz is more Holodeck immersive than 75fps@90Hz.

The computer doesn't have to be in the same room... just connected by Ethernet to the router. I play several rooms away from my PC.

Easter Egg: Quest 2 can essentially emulate a 60-to-90 Hz CRT PC monitor

There is over 60 years of legacy 60 Hz content -- television, emulators, videos. So we can't say good bye to 60 Hz.

Virtual Desktop also lets you remote desktop to your PC and configure it to 60 Hz to 90 Hz for plain Windows desktop. Make sure you configure your PC's refresh rate to the same refresh rate as Quest, to get rid of computer stutters.

Try watching 60fps POV videos with the Quest 2 configured to 60 Hz. Play all your 60Hz content like a CRT 60Hz tube. Emulators, PC 60fps console ports, 60fps YouTubes, sports broadcasts, etc.

Absolutely beautiful zero-blur video, with zero stutters. Especially if you're a fan of CRT/plasma. The average on-to-off persistence (motion blur) of a Quest 2 is lower than many CRTs (which takes time for the phosphor to fade to black), resulting in extremely clean 60fps 60Hz motion.

Being a perfect zero strobe crosstalk; it is actually the best strobe-backlight PC gaming monitor I've seen -- this LCD is able to do GtG100% for the entire GtG heatmap in total darkness between flashes -- alas, it just happens to be a VR headset...
 
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flegg

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
1,070
Yes, Learning curve for Quest 2 is easy with its standalone ecosystem -- low bar of entry -- and even a cabled Oculus Link is not that much more difficult if you already have a typical modern gaming PC.

However, enabling wireless PC VR feature is slightly trickier. Still easy (less time than it takes to properly wall-install sensors/Lighthouses); just a still-unofficial feature that Quest 2 can do since it won't work with "just any WiFi router".

This advice is also repeated all over the SideQuest / Virtual Desktop forums but this is to save you time and trouble -- you need really good WiFi for perfect wireless PC VR streaming.
However, I'll summarize the advice oft posted elsewhere:

Wireless PC VR Tips With Quest 2

To get wireless PC VR on a Quest 2 is still an unofficial devmode+sideload operation on Quest 2 -- since you have to side-load the SideQuest app to install the "enhanced" version of Virtual Desktop that enables the wireless Quest 2 feature.

So it's more of an advanced PC-user-league tweak operation for perfect wireless PC VR (look ma, no cables!)

1. Separate WiFi router just for VR (clear of other traffic). So buy an extra one. Gives you a dedicated SSID just for your Quest 2. Especailly if your existing WiFi router is one of those cheap ISP inclusions, you actually need to buy a 2nd router (preferably one of those high performance multicore-CPU routers) for low-lag WiFi. Most hotspots and cheap ISP routers is a crappy stutter-fest with Quest 2. You can wire it by Ethernet to your main router, putting other users on your original router, but have a separate WiFi 5/6 router dedicated to just Quest 2 in the same room. Those three-antenna $100-$150 ASUS midrange "gaming routers" usually works fine, but a $20 USB WiFi usually won't work well; hotspotting has a low stutter-free success rate.
2. Put your separate WiFi router in the same room you plan to play PC VR in.
3. Make sure your VR PC / gaming laptop is directly connected to Ethernet to the router.
4. 5 GHz WiFi 5 or 6, to allow a reliable clear 80-100 Mbps H.EVC video (no lag, no artifacts, looks native instead of videolike)

Also, VR Streaming will eat a % of your PC's GPU, so a bit more extra GPU horsepower than needed (e.g. RTX series cards) can help compensate for the PC VR streaming overhead.

If you have a really good router (like those top-of-the-line 8-antenna MU-MIMO routers), you can probably stick to just one router for the whole household if the household is not doing too much other WiFi traffic. But better safe than sorry, and have a dedicated router + dedicated SSID just for your Quest 2, it's easier to force a Quest 2 to 5 GHz if you can turn off the 2.4 GHz feature of your Quest 2 dedicated router.

At least an adequate midrange gaming router router is still a lot cheaper than a TP Cast; These advices can save a lot of tears and crying for wireless PC VR with Quest 2.

Also, if your VR PC is a gaming laptop, PLUG IT IN to power (more GPU power -- In addition to a PC, I also have a Razer laptop with an RTX 2080 and it goes dramatically faster when plugged into wall outlet).

I'm able to play one room away from the router, but slight stutters sometimes pop in and out. So I recommend same-room router though, and making sure your dedicated PC VR router is in the same room.

Another bonus of SideQuest is customizable refresh rate operation (72Hz, 90Hz), the lower frame rate can allow slightly lower-end systems to stream VR successfully. VR is an automatic mandatory framerate=Hz experience; 72fps@72Hz is more Holodeck immersive than 75fps@90Hz.

The computer doesn't have to be in the same room... just connected by Ethernet to the router. I play several rooms away from my PC.

Easter Egg: Quest 2 can essentially emulate a 60-to-90 Hz CRT PC monitor

There is over 60 years of legacy 60 Hz content -- television, emulators, videos. So we can't say good bye to 60 Hz.

Virtual Desktop also lets you remote desktop to your PC and configure it to 60 Hz to 90 Hz for plain Windows desktop. Make sure you configure your PC's refresh rate to the same refresh rate as Quest, to get rid of computer stutters.

Try watching 60fps POV videos with the Quest 2 configured to 60 Hz. Play all your 60Hz content like a CRT 60Hz tube. Emulators, PC 60fps console ports, 60fps YouTubes, sports broadcasts, etc.

Absolutely beautiful zero-blur video, with zero stutters. Especially if you're a fan of CRT/plasma. The average on-to-off persistence (motion blur) of a Quest 2 is lower than many CRTs (which takes time for the phosphor to fade to black), resulting in extremely clean 60fps 60Hz motion.

Being a perfect zero strobe crosstalk; it is actually the best strobe-backlight PC gaming monitor I've seen -- this LCD is able to do GtG100% for the entire GtG heatmap in total darkness between flashes -- alas, it just happens to be a VR headset...
Are you saying I should get 2 so the wife and I can watch 60hz content together?
 

Andrew_Carr

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
1,701
A lot of teens and first-timers that don't know WTF they're doing and tend to rant and rave about minor things. There's a learning curve to setup of proper PCVR, and the WMR side certainly isn't as elegant as Oculus stack due to how WMR and Steam interrelate. To me the difference between G2 and Quest2 is like PC vs console gaming - the latter is easier to "turn on and play"; the former is technically superior but requires more tweaking.

There's undeniable value to the dummyproof-ness and wireless aspects to Quest 2 - assuming you're okay with Facebook privacy invasion - but for my money, G2 is king at this pricepoint for where it matters most: clarity.

It seems like the new G2 is a good way to get into VR. One of the best two headsets and if you really get into VR you can always upgrade to the Valve index controllers & base stations. That puts you to a similar price as a complete valve index, but you have arguably a better headset and you can possibly sell off your old G2 controllers. Any thoughts on this? I'm thinking of getting into VR, but the $1k asking price of a valve index and the long wait time was a tough sell for someone who's never really gotten into VR.
 

kalston

[H]ard|Gawd
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Messages
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I think it's the opposite of a "good way to get into VR". It seems overly sensitive to positioning on your head, has terrible controller tracking out of the box (and using Index controllers is possible but NOT plug & play), doesn't work (yet) with latest AMD GPUs and several motherboards and on top of that the required horsepower is totally insane (to have good clarity you need way more than 4k worth of pixels) meaning a lot of games will run very poorly giving an extremely subpar VR experience. WMR is not as mature a platform as Oculus or Steam either.

It's really better to get started with Oculus products at this time if the Index asking price is an issue (but yes the Index is a solid product though arguably priced way too high). Or a second hand product from previous gen (OG Vive, Rift CV1, Rift S, Quest 1 etc.).

What the Reverb does well right now is provide the best clarity for simmers. The Quest 2 with latest link update is actually not too far behind, for a lower cost. But the Quest 2 is a lot more versatile giving you the option of wireless or stand alone mode and has good controller tracking out of the box.
 
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Nebell

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Messages
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Why are you using 1000 fps examples?
Even 240 fps is pushing it.
Wouldn't blur be more noticable on 1000hz screen compared to 240hz?
There are no monitors running 1000hz and no VR headsets running 240hz.
 

Chief Blur Buster

Owner of BlurBusters
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
87
Why are you using 1000 fps examples?
Even 240 fps is pushing it.
Wouldn't blur be more noticable on 1000hz screen compared to 240hz?
There are no monitors running 1000hz and no VR headsets running 240hz.
The message was in answer to flegg's question.

It's not for today -- it is a long-term plan. Like the first implementations in 10 years.

Assuming no BFI, no flicker, fast GtG, fast GtG and framerate=Hz, 1000fps@1000Hz has 1/4th the motion blur of 240fps@240Hz. It looks like CRT-motion-clarity with no flicker.

If you've ever seen Blur Busters' newer Area 51 articles, you know that Blur Busters has become big fans of low-persistence sample and hold, since strobing is a humankind band-aid because refresh rates are too low for low-persistence sample and hold.

GPU vendors are developing frame rate amplification technologies (google "frame rate amplification") to get 1000fps cheaply. Just like today's Oculus ASW 2.0 converting 45fps to 90fps, tomorrow's GPUs in ten years (plus) will be able to be able to convert 100fps to 1000fps. Or even NVIDIA DLSS 2.0. Also, ASUS has already roadmapped 1000Hz over the long-term -- a rep from ASUS mentioned that to PC Magazine.

Since it's THE Holodeck long-term end goal because -- real life does not strobe, real life does not flicker, so low-persistence sample-and-hold is a better emulation of real life -- Also, some people do get headaches from VR flicker, too -- which means they can't use VR or any strobing technologies. The only way to eliminate motion blur strobelessly requires extreme frame rate.

It's academic discussion of course, but 1000 Hz is already tested in the laboratory, and 1000fps-capable GPUs (with Unreal 5 graphics) will be a reality in a decade or two, thanks to new frame rate amplification technologies doing 5:1 and 10:1 ratios instead of today's 2:1 ratios.

Of course, this educational stuff is simply for long-term motion blur reduction knowledge -- being Blur Busters, we're experts in display motion blur -- answering someone else's question about black frame insertion (BFI). Explaining simple ELI5 concepts about display motion blur is extremely difficult; but that is kind of Blur Busters' speciality -- it is directly proportional to pixel visibility time as explained. BFI does not completely eliminate all motion blur, and I had to also explain that display motion blur is proportional to pixel visibility time.

Check out frame rate amplification technology -- multiple vendors are working on this. It's not like laggy interpolation, but a new method of getting more frame rates out of GPUs. From today's 2:1 ratios to tomorrow's 5:1 to 10:1 ratios. It's still currently mostly unobtanium, but no longer pie-in-sky thanks to recent experiments.

Either way -- Low persistence is great for VR -- whether via strobing or via sheer fps/Hz.

Cheers,
 
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Nebell

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The message was in answer to flegg's question.

It's not for today -- it is a long-term plan. Like the first implementations in 10 years.

Assuming no BFI, no flicker, fast GtG, fast GtG and framerate=Hz, 1000fps@1000Hz has 1/4th the motion blur of 240fps@240Hz. It looks like CRT-motion-clarity with no flicker.

If you've ever seen Blur Busters' newer Area 51 articles, you know that Blur Busters has become big fans of low-persistence sample and hold, since strobing is a humankind band-aid because refresh rates are too low for low-persistence sample and hold.

GPU vendors are developing frame rate amplification technologies (google "frame rate amplification") to get 1000fps cheaply. Just like today's Oculus ASW 2.0 converting 45fps to 90fps, tomorrow's GPUs in ten years (plus) will be able to be able to convert 100fps to 1000fps. Or even NVIDIA DLSS 2.0. Also, ASUS has already roadmapped 1000Hz over the long-term -- a rep from ASUS mentioned that to PC Magazine.

Since it's THE Holodeck long-term end goal because -- real life does not strobe, real life does not flicker, so low-persistence sample-and-hold is a better emulation of real life -- Also, some people do get headaches from VR flicker, too -- which means they can't use VR or any strobing technologies. The only way to eliminate motion blur strobelessly requires extreme frame rate.

It's academic discussion of course, but 1000 Hz is already tested in the laboratory, and 1000fps-capable GPUs (with Unreal 5 graphics) will be a reality in a decade or two, thanks to new frame rate amplification technologies doing 5:1 and 10:1 ratios instead of today's 2:1 ratios.

Of course, this educational stuff is simply for long-term motion blur reduction knowledge -- being Blur Busters, we're experts in display motion blur -- answering someone else's question about black frame insertion (BFI). Explaining simple ELI5 concepts about display motion blur is extremely difficult; but that is kind of Blur Busters' speciality -- it is directly proportional to pixel visibility time as explained. BFI does not completely eliminate all motion blur, and I had to also explain that display motion blur is proportional to pixel visibility time.

Check out frame rate amplification technology -- multiple vendors are working on this. It's not like laggy interpolation, but a new method of getting more frame rates out of GPUs. From today's 2:1 ratios to tomorrow's 5:1 to 10:1 ratios. It's still currently mostly unobtanium, but no longer pie-in-sky thanks to recent experiments.

Either way -- Low persistence is great for VR -- whether via strobing or via sheer fps/Hz.

Cheers,

You haven't really answered my question.
I don't care about Asus. Asus doesn't make VR headsets. Or lenses for VR.
Laboratory examples are not interesting either. Nor are 10 years from now GPUs.
Also, you can't predict technology 10 years from now.

You might be in the wrong thread. This is a thread about which VR headset to buy in 2020.
 

flegg

[H]ard|Gawd
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You haven't really answered my question.
I don't care about Asus. Asus doesn't make VR headsets. Or lenses for VR.
Laboratory examples are not interesting either. Nor are 10 years from now GPUs.
Also, you can't predict technology 10 years from now.

You might be in the wrong thread. This is a thread about which VR headset to buy in 2020.
He's trying to tell you OLED is inferior until framerates get higher. And so the Oculus Quest 2 display is a huge step up from previous devices.
 

Nebell

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He's trying to tell you OLED is inferior until framerates get higher. And so the Oculus Quest 2 display is a huge step up from previous devices.

Then how come many prefer the blacks of OLED? And I'm talking VR only.
Besides, black not being quite black is probably more noticable when you're in VR.
 

kalston

[H]ard|Gawd
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Yup, the LCD used in those VR headsets (at least the Index & Oculus ones, pretty sure Pimax and Reverb still have ghosting issues and whatnot) handle motion far better than OLED right now. I'm not sure how though, maybe it's actually a unique LCD technology? (as in, not VA/TN/IPS) because to me it certainly looks like neither of those 3.

The difference was immediately obvious to me when I put my Rift S on and did some extreme motion tests (Carmack did say himself that the Rift S screen was actually an upgrade over the OLED panels - as long as we ignore the black levels).

Then how come many prefer the blacks of OLED? And I'm talking VR only.
Besides, black not being quite black is probably more noticable when you're in VR.
Motion clarity is extremely important (no - it's critical) in VR. Way more than black levels, we don't need pure blacks that often. Even a game like Elite Dangerous actually doesn't need pure blacks that much, space is very dark grey and not pure black 99% of the time (in that game).

And even if the blacks are grey in those LCD headsets, it's a clean grey, there is no bleed or clouding like we see on monitors. At least with Oculus and Index I can tell you the panels I've seen always have perfect uniformity. I've heard bad things when it comes to Reverb and Pimax on the other hand.

And AFAIK the OLED panels in VR headsets are always either: not allowed to show true blacks OR suffer from major ghosting with very dark content. I don't know if this has been overcome in any headset.
 
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reaper12

2[H]4U
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Then how come many prefer the blacks of OLED? And I'm talking VR only.
Besides, black not being quite black is probably more noticable when you're in VR.

People like different things. That applies to everything, not just VR headsets!!

Black levels not been quite black is only really noticeable if you switch from a VR headset using OLED to a VR headset using LCD. Once you start using an LCD headset you get used to the black levels and don't really notice it anymore. Because the black levels in the current generation of LCD headsets isn't bad.

At the moment using LCD gives a better VR experience.
 

Chief Blur Buster

Owner of BlurBusters
Joined
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Messages
87
Then how come many prefer the blacks of OLED? And I'm talking VR only.
Besides, black not being quite black is probably more noticable when you're in VR.
This is correct. Blacks are very good for horror games. For many, it may be preferable over other OLED artifacts.

The Behind-The-Scenes Reasons Why New LCD VR has 6x Less Motion Blur Than OLED VR

However, the new LCD VR has higher resolution and less motion blur, so many others prefer that too. Quest 2 has virtually no screendoor effect, and its deliciously perfect zero strobe crosstalk (some incredible LCD engineering there!). And there's no human-detectable motion blur even during fast head turns, thanks to the current LCD VR having about 1/6th the motion blur of OLED VR at the moment.

As you already know, Blur Busters works with display manufacturers from time to time, so I can give you some inside information on why OLED has become problematic for VR.

This is because the LCD backlight flashes six times quicker (0.3ms flash backlight) versus the OLED pixels flashing for 2ms flash. The problem with direct-flashing of OLED pixels is large degradation in black noises/speckle the briefer you try to direct-flash an OLED pixel for. The shorter you try to flash an OLED pixel for, the worse the noise/speckle in darks become -- so 2ms was a compromise (and speckle is still visible).

In low-persistence engineering, LED / OLED speckle is a major problem for the bottom end of dynamic range during low persistence operation of an OLED -- and VR is aggressively pushing motion clarity requirements. There is a very dastardly vicious cycle effect (higher resolution & wider FOV & higher refresh rates = amplifies visibility of motion blur = 0.5ms MPRT versus 1.0ms MPRT is now human-visible when we're entering the leagues of strobed 4K VR displays). The way higher resolutions amplify the needs of motion clarity, is a huge driver of needing sub-1ms-MPRT for virtual reality headsets, and only the new LCD VR headsets (Index, Rift S, Quest 2) are doing a stellar job honest real-world measured sub-1ms-MPRT (non-fake).

Unfortunately, a law-of-physics effect called Talbot-Plateau Law (need to strobe brighter briefer) is causing major problems with low-persistence OLED.

Trying to brighten the OLED and flash it briefer -- also unfortunately brightens the speckle effect (the noisy-OLED effect during dark situations) every time we try to improve MPRT with an OLED (without using low-persistence sample-and-hold). Also, OLED GtG (0.1ms) starts becoming a significant percentage of a OLED low persistence (2ms). Whereas, the backlight flash is completely decoupled from LCD GtG (which can simply be hidden in the total darkness between refresh cycles). As long as you get GtG100% perfect between refresh cycles, LCD has no bottom limit to motion clarity -- it can be infinitely clear (e.g. 0.001 microsecond flash, if such a backlight existed). Surprisingly, LCD VR LCD motion clarity now currently beats CRT motion clarity, and Quest 2 is now being used with Virtual Desktop to emulate a 60 Hz CRT; running MAME or RetroArch on a floating virtual monitor (or virtual monitor sitting on virtual desk) while wearing Quest 2.

TODAY:
As already shipping in Index / Quest 2 / Rift S -- the Talbot-Plateau law is less of a barrier with LCD (outsourced light) than OLED (tiny pixels), since it's easier to design a heatsinked/watercooled LCD backlight that can flash stadium-bright like a CRT electron beam, to compensate for the briefness of low-persistence. This is hard to do directly with OLED pixels without degradations and extra speckle/noise in blacks.

FUTURE:
The good news is I saw a FALD VR prototype so LCD VR will have perfect blacks come ~2025. As long as it's backlit by at least 10,000 LEDs to 50,000 LEDs (or even 100,000), the bloom will be a nonissue. Historically FALD was scarily expensive, but prices will fall fast on MicroLED / MiniLED panels. It will probably follow a commoditization path much like 32x32 Jumbotron LED panels are under $10 off Alibaba -- that's 1024 RGB LEDs matrixes for under a penny per LED -- places like Alibaba https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/32x32-led-matrix.htm

So FALD (Full Array Local Dimming) isn't necessarily expensive forever, even for VR headests. Probably Valve Index 2 will use them, come 2022-2023, maybe even as early as 2021. Hopefully CES 2021 will announcd FALD VR headsets, but that might not happen till CES 2022 due to COVID. It might be less than 10,000 LED FALD, but it's a start once FALD VR comes out.

It might not be until a few iterations later where FALD VR is cheap enough to arrive in a future Quest (maybe Quest 4 in 2025?) since Quest is hitting the low-cost VR market (and doing a stellar job at it). FALD LCD VR will be initially a premium feature. So, I think a theoretical future Valve Index 2 would probably do FALD VR first. Also, it would be neat if Index 2 has a "Lighthouses-optional" mode of operation. In other words, having both inside-out tracking and sensor-tracking modes of operation. Easy setup by making Lighthouses optional, with optional accuracy-improvements (for controllers-behind-back operations, etc).

Longer term, direct-view MicroLEDs will be superior to both OLED and LCD, but trying to have 33 million LEDs in an 8K VR headset headset is a bit unobtainium. It's MUCH easier to have a 1-million-LED monochrome MicroLED backlight driving ultra-fast-switch LCD that's successfully strobe-tuned to GtG100% perfection for the entire 256x256 GtG heatmap or 1024x1024 GtG heatmap.

Now, if "low-persistence sample-and-hold" (1000fps+ on 1000Hz+) arrives to OLED, it solves the speckle problem overnight. Ultra high framerate OLED would do a really stunning job of blacks (much more speckle-free blacks than today). However, it will be quite a while before 1000fps 1000Hz becomes a reality, so for now we'll need low-persistence via strobing for now.

(P.S. Those lovely GtG heatmaps you see on HardwareUnboxed or ApertureGrille or RTINGS? Those are actually puny to what I bet John Carmack did -- i.e. ordering a massive GtG heatmapping & tuning the LCD VR panels did -- figuratively, imagine a spreadsheet of over 65000 GtG values with every single GtG value tuned. Every single GtG value of them fixed in Quest 2 at faster than a refresh cycle, with strobe flash perfectly timed as the pixels pass the exact GtG value desired. John Carmack magic. It's an engineer standing ovation. Imagine a 65,536 square HardwareUnboxed GtG heatmap with every square GtG100% virtually perfect at strobe time). The main flaw of that Quest 2 LCD is it's not backlit by a >100,000-LED-element-count FALD MicroLED panel, bloomfree and perfect blacks.)

_____

Knowledge is power; understanding how display motion blur helps understand the state of OLED VR technology and LCD VR technology. So even the peripheral topic helps educate, LCD VR versus OLED VR, and how different strobe flash lengths affects display motion blur -- is quite useful in understanding the pros/cons. Necessarily, talking about display motion blur, creates necessary topic sidetracks (why strobing/flicker is currently necessary for VR, because of the impossibility of the refresh rates necessary to fix motion blur strobelessly). I do go above-and-beyond to educate people about how display motion blur physics works -- but my topic sidetracks are (usually) generally well-loved by advanced users. Some people cannot use VR because the person is too flicker-sensitive. Also, display motion blur is extra blur forced on you above-and-beyond your natural human limitations. Holodeck should perfectly match real life. Bottom line, dsplay motion blur is unwanted extra motion blur above-and-beyond real life, which VR is attempting to simulate.

So, today, if your #1 priority is OLED blacks at high resolution -- buy a very good OLED headset such as HTC Vive Pro.

If your #1 priority is motion clarity, then modern LCD VR is superior -- Valve Index, Rift S, Quest 2

If you want excellent ease-of-use thrown in too, then the answer is a no-brainer (if you can tolerate Facebook) -- Quest 2
 
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lobstar

Weaksauce
Joined
Nov 24, 2004
Messages
118
Just throwing in my G2 experience. I'm on an X570 board and ran into the initial issues but solved it with a secondary USB card. Once I moved to that card all tracking issues were solved. The screens were brighter too.
 

Aireoth

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
4,688
This is correct. Blacks are very good for horror games. For many, it may be preferable over other OLED artifacts.

However, the new LCD VR has higher resolution and less motion blur, so many others prefer that too. Quest 2 has virtually no screendoor effect, and its deliciously perfect zero strobe crosstalk (some incredible LCD engineering there!). And there's no human-detectable motion blur even during fast head turns, thanks to the current LCD VR having about 1/6th the motion blur of OLED VR at the moment.

As you already know, Blur Busters works with display manufacturers from time to time, so I can give you some inside information on why OLED has become problematic for VR.

This is because the LCD backlight flashes six times quicker (0.3ms flash backlight) versus the OLED pixels flashing for 2ms flash. The problem with direct-flashing of OLED pixels is large degradation in black noises/speckle the briefer you try to direct-flash an OLED pixel for. The shorter you try to flash an OLED pixel for, the worse the noise/speckle in darks become -- so 2ms was a compromise (and speckle is still visible).

In low-persistence engineering, LED / OLED speckle is a major problem for the bottom end of dynamic range during low persistence operation of an OLED -- and VR is aggressively pushing motion clarity requirements. There is a very dastardly vicious cycle effect (higher resolution & wider FOV & higher refresh rates = amplifies visibility of motion blur = 0.5ms MPRT versus 1.0ms MPRT is now human-visible when we're entering the leagues of strobed 4K VR displays). The way higher resolutions amplify the needs of motion clarity, is a huge driver of needing sub-1ms-MPRT for virtual reality headsets, and only the new LCD VR headsets (Index, Rift S, Quest 2) are doing a stellar job honest real-world measured sub-1ms-MPRT (non-fake).

Unfortunately, a law-of-physics effect called Talbot-Plateau Law (need to strobe brighter briefer) is causing major problems with low-persistence OLED.

Trying to brighten the OLED and flash it briefer -- also unfortunately brightens the speckle effect (the noisy-OLED effect during dark situations) every time we try to improve MPRT with an OLED (without using low-persistence sample-and-hold). Also, OLED GtG (0.1ms) starts becoming a significant percentage of a OLED low persistence (2ms). Whereas, the backlight flash is completely decoupled from LCD GtG (which can simply be hidden in the total darkness between refresh cycles). As long as you get GtG100% perfect between refresh cycles, LCD has no bottom limit to motion clarity -- it can be infinitely clear (e.g. 0.001 microsecond flash, if such a backlight existed). Surprisingly, LCD VR LCD motion clarity now currently beats CRT motion clarity, and Quest 2 is now being used with Virtual Desktop to emulate a 60 Hz CRT; running MAME or RetroArch on a floating virtual monitor (or virtual monitor sitting on virtual desk) while wearing Quest 2.

TODAY:
As already shipping in Index / Quest 2 / Rift S -- the Talbot-Plateau law is less of a barrier with LCD (outsourced light) than OLED (tiny pixels), since it's easier to design a heatsinked/watercooled LCD backlight that can flash stadium-bright like a CRT electron beam, to compensate for the briefness of low-persistence. This is hard to do directly with OLED pixels without degradations and extra speckle/noise in blacks.

FUTURE:
The good news is I saw a FALD VR prototype so LCD VR will have perfect blacks come ~2025. As long as it's backlit by at least 10,000 LEDs to 50,000 LEDs (or even 100,000), the bloom will be a nonissue. Historically FALD was scarily expensive, but prices will fall fast on MicroLED / MiniLED panels. It will probably follow a commoditization path much like 32x32 Jumbotron LED panels are under $10 off Alibaba -- that's 1024 RGB LEDs matrixes for under a penny per LED -- places like Alibaba https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/32x32-led-matrix.htm

So FALD (Full Array Local Dimming) isn't necessarily expensive forever, even for VR headests. Probably Valve Index 2 will use them, come 2022-2023, maybe even as early as 2021. Hopefully CES 2021 will announcd FALD VR headsets, but that might not happen till CES 2022 due to COVID. It might be less than 10,000 LED FALD, but it's a start once FALD VR comes out.

It might not be until a few iterations later where FALD VR is cheap enough to arrive in a future Quest (maybe Quest 4 in 2025?) since Quest is hitting the low-cost VR market (and doing a stellar job at it). FALD LCD VR will be initially a premium feature. So, I think a theoretical future Valve Index 2 would probably do FALD VR first. Also, it would be neat if Index 2 has a "Lighthouses-optional" mode of operation. In other words, having both inside-out tracking and sensor-tracking modes of operation. Easy setup by making Lighthouses optional, with optional accuracy-improvements (for controllers-behind-back operations, etc).

Longer term, direct-view MicroLEDs will be superior to both OLED and LCD, but trying to have 33 million LEDs in an 8K VR headset headset is a bit unobtainium. It's MUCH easier to have a 1-million-LED monochrome MicroLED backlight driving ultra-fast-switch LCD that's successfully strobe-tuned to GtG100% perfection for the entire 256x256 GtG heatmap or 1024x1024 GtG heatmap.

Now, if "low-persistence sample-and-hold" (1000fps+ on 1000Hz+) arrives to OLED, it solves the speckle problem overnight. Ultra high framerate OLED would do a really stunning job of blacks (much more speckle-free blacks than today). However, it will be quite a while before 1000fps 1000Hz becomes a reality, so for now we'll need low-persistence via strobing for now.

(P.S. Those lovely GtG heatmaps you see on HardwareUnboxed or ApertureGrille or RTINGS? Those are actually puny to what I bet John Carmack did -- i.e. ordering a massive GtG heatmapping & tuning the LCD VR panels did -- figuratively, imagine a spreadsheet of over 65000 GtG values with every single GtG value tuned. Every single GtG value of them fixed in Quest 2 at faster than a refresh cycle, with strobe flash perfectly timed as the pixels pass the exact GtG value desired. John Carmack magic. It's an engineer standing ovation. Imagine a 65,536 square HardwareUnboxed GtG heatmap with every square GtG100% virtually perfect at strobe time). The main flaw of that Quest 2 LCD is it's not backlit by a >100,000-LED-element-count FALD MicroLED panel, bloomfree and perfect blacks.)

_____

Knowledge is power; understanding how display motion blur helps understand the state of OLED VR technology and LCD VR technology. So even the peripheral topic helps educate, LCD VR versus OLED VR, and how different strobe flash lengths affects display motion blur -- is quite useful in understanding the pros/cons. Necessarily, talking about display motion blur, creates necessary topic sidetracks (why strobing/flicker is currently necessary for VR, because of the impossibility of the refresh rates necessary to fix motion blur strobelessly). I do go above-and-beyond to educate people about how display motion blur physics works -- but my topic sidetracks are (usually) generally well-loved by advanced users. Some people cannot use VR because the person is too flicker-sensitive. Also, display motion blur is extra blur forced on you above-and-beyond your natural human limitations. Holodeck should perfectly match real life. Bottom line, dsplay motion blur is unwanted extra motion blur above-and-beyond real life, which VR is attempting to simulate.

So, today, if your #1 priority is OLED blacks at high resolution -- buy a very good OLED headset such as HTC Vive Pro.

If your #1 priority is motion clarity, then modern LCD VR is superior -- Valve Index, Rift S, Quest 2

If you want excellent ease-of-use thrown in too, then the answer is a no-brainer (if you can tolerate Facebook) -- Quest 2
Thank you for all that.

Thoughts on the G2?
 

flegg

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
1,070
So did I get one of the duds and need to return it or is the Quest 2 supposed to look super blurry if you look anywhere except for like 5 degrees from dead center
 

MaZa

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 21, 2008
Messages
3,143
So did I get one of the duds and need to return it or is the Quest 2 supposed to look super blurry if you look anywhere except for like 5 degrees from dead center

From what I have gathered Oculus does have a problem with dud lenses and those duds usually have dots around them. Now, no VR lense has perfect edge to edge clarity but those duds are particularly bad where you can look nowhere else but dead center.

https://www.reddit.com/r/OculusQues...&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
 

flegg

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
1,070
From what I have gathered Oculus does have a problem with dud lenses and those duds usually have dots around them. Now, no VR lense has perfect edge to edge clarity but those duds are particularly bad where you can look nowhere else but dead center.

https://www.reddit.com/r/OculusQues...&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3

Definitely dots around my lenses. I am 20/20 but also a bit myopic (glasses/contacts not worth the hassle for the minimal improvement). I removed the covering and just put a sock over my nose while putting the IPD to max (now my eyeballs are just about touching the lenses) and this helped quite a bit but seems like it shouldnt be necessary.

I feel like I need to try out one that is confirmed good
 

DPI

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
11,279
Currently no G2 experience, so I can't say. Yet. Perhaps in 2021, I'll have something to say.
The clarity is simply a different world, another level. For me there's no going back to Quest 2 res or anything lesser - even wireless isn't a big enough tradeoff to downgrade res (granted, if all I did was Beat Saber and boxing then sure, Quest 2 all the way).
 

motqalden

[H]ard|DCOTM x3
Joined
Jun 22, 2009
Messages
1,804
ugh.. so many opinions here and i can't make up my mind. I have had a CV1 for a few years now and i use it somewhat infrequently. Do i go for the G2 or the Quest2? lol! I do primarily play games like beatsaber which would really be great for Quest2 since i could ditch the wires and overall seems it would be a visual upgrade for other games i play, or do i go for the higher resolution of the G2 and perhaps suffer with worse tracking and not have a wireless option! I guess if its a toss up I should definitely go for the cheaper option since i don't really play many games where I am sitting in my chair and tracking and freedom would probably be more important for me.
 

DPI

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
11,279
ugh.. so many opinions here and i can't make up my mind. I have had a CV1 for a few years now and i use it somewhat infrequently. Do i go for the G2 or the Quest2? lol! I do primarily play games like beatsaber which would really be great for Quest2 since i could ditch the wires and overall seems it would be a visual upgrade for other games i play, or do i go for the higher resolution of the G2 and perhaps suffer with worse tracking and not have a wireless option! I guess if its a toss up I should definitely go for the cheaper option since i don't really play many games where I am sitting in my chair and tracking and freedom would probably be more important for me.
I wish everyone had the ability to try both. Many people will conclude "Quest 2 clarity is good enough" or even, "I don't really see a difference" (they don't know what to look for, ignorance is bliss). It's undeniable Quest 2 wireless freedom is great, and the thing is actually in stock. Plus if you have kids, or want to introduce VR to non-techies, Quest 2 is the one.

For me, the decision was made first with G1 and then a borrowed G2 where for the first times I could read sharp text in VR, could see the gauges clearly in VTOL VR, everything in Alyx was super sharp. Flight Simulator in VR I'm *really* looking forward to. I didn't care how many wires or how high the GPU requirements at that point, I couldn't go back to lower res. As for G2 "tracking issues", they're overblown, just like they were for G1, and mostly parroted by people that haven't tried for themselves- "but a reviewer said if you have really bright lights in a room then WMR has problems" - not a big deal to work around for the mind blowing clarity.
 
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