Where are the mech sims, space sims, combat air sims, etc.? Wha' happened?!

W

WolfpupNX

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 13, 2007
Messages
167
Hey all,

You know, upgrading computers soon, and I'm excited and all about playing a few games (BioShock, HL2 [which I never got to play yet believe it or not], and some others). But I have to say, a lot of the games I grew up loving...games that should be spectacular with today's hardware, don't even appear to be made anymore.

The games I'm talking about include MechWarrior 2 (I had *such* fun with that one), Earthsiege series, Heavy Gear 1/2, the X-Wing and Tie Fighter games, Wing Commander games, FreeSpace, Starlancer... Why the sudden lack of interest in mech and space games? And even accessible combat flight sims seem to have gone the way of the dodo bird (only one of those I ever played was Top Gun, which was an old but quite fun F-14 sim).

I know consoles (of which I don't currently own; not opposed to them though) has more variety here, but I liked the...simple complexity I guess you'd call it, of these classic games.

All of the above had a learning curve and a control scheme where yeah, most keys on a keyboard did something, and a joystick was recommended or required, but you could figure it out in a couple of hours (far less if you've had some experience), and it was very rewarding, often with awesome stories and a great sense of immersion being a pilot.

Heck, even the FPS have been simplified far too much IMO and for my taste. BioShock actually, while looking like a totally amazing game (current system can't run it well), even is simpler than System Shock was, and simple has it's place, but not in every single title.

Why have these genres died? I remember how popular Mech2 and the X-W/T-F series were back in the day. Anything new coming anytime soon? Any hope of a resurrection of these genres? Anybody else feel like I do? heh. I keep imaging the completely amazing things they could do with a modern engine and just feel sad that there's nothing new...
 
try DarkStar One for a nice space sim with interesting story...

Space Force: Rogue Universe is also complex and worth it...
 
*sigh* I fear very much you're right. I'm all for arcade games some of the time. But this mass market appeal to the biggest general audience does upset mef, not because I don't want the general audience to be happy, but because I want some games that really appeal to me too - most of what comes out just seems like it isn't a fit like games of old.

The thing about these games was, you did...while still being fun...feel like it took some skill to pilot the ships/mech/fighters. For example, I'm flying an X-Wing...when do I increase power to certain systems...or when do I move shield all forward or all aft...do I want speed, weapons power, or shielding...etc? It was more than just fly and shoot, though that was certainly a large part of it.

Even games like...Deus Ex and System Shock 2 with complex inventory systems, etc. I know BioShock kept some of that, but a lot of it's gone now.

I just feel like with some games, sure...it's fine for it to be simple. But for others, especially these games, taking the complexity out of it also takes a lot of the fun and sense of accomplishment out of it along with that. It doesn't feel as...big...or real...or immersive...without that stuff.

I dunno. I suppose more than anything, it's the fault of the market. Why put your time into a detailed simulator for PC when you can make a fraction of the money than you could if you put it instead into an arcadey game you can ship to 5 or 6 different platforms. But it's still disappointing. For what it's worth, I'd personally pay significantly more for a detailed, well-thought out and adventurous sim than I would an arcade game, but I'm not sure that would make much of a difference as I don't know gamers like me would ever be the majority of the market.

The other problem is when you design for multiple platforms, in my opinion, you really can't excel in anything platform-specific, and that ends up losing a lot more than I feel people give credit. But, profit is more important than artistry, and that's pretty hard to get past nowadays (I'm only 27 but damn I feel old writing this. heh).

I have to wonder though. The market (and I know I can't be alone) is pretty hungry for this stuff - one would hope if something really polished was released, it might do remarkably well. But that's probably as much wishful thinking as anything.
 
I loved Mechwarrior alot especially mercenary's, and i remember playing heavy gear for the first time on mplayer. Heavy gear 2 was kinda boring to me ( this was because i guess i got into quake alot more ).

Anyways i would love to see a massive rebirth of mech games preferably all PvP absolutely no single player... :D

Or maybe a small single player part of the game to get you familar with the game. :rolleyes:
 
Origin Systems was bought by EA Games, and Fasa Interactive was bought by Microsoft.

Battletech was probably too complex for the Xbox crowd, and Microsoft no longer gives a damn about PC gamers since they want everyone to buy their console and pay more for games.
 
WolfpupNX said:
...The games I'm talking about include MechWarrior 2 (I had *such* fun with that one), Earthsiege series, Heavy Gear 1/2, the X-Wing and Tie Fighter games, Wing Commander games, FreeSpace, Starlancer... Why the sudden lack of interest in mech and space games? And even accessible combat flight sims seem to have gone the way of the dodo bird (only one of those I ever played was Top Gun, which was an old but quite fun F-14 sim)...
Click to expand...

Game developers have realized what the movies studios realized a long time ago....they can make more money appealling to the cookie cutter gen Y and gen Z audiences whose sole motivation in life is instant gratification. Forget about any game which requires any ounce of intelligence to learn and master, they are simply deemed to complicated for a population of gamers who have been weaned on console games which only require the use of a joystick/d-pad and three buttons.
 
Just a few responses:

To each his own. Personally, I love immersive single player campaigns (though I did play some multiplayer back in the day). Overall though, I'll usually personally choose a nice long single player campaign with great story over multiplayer stuff - just never got into the multiplayer. (But hey, why not have both? Lots of mech/space/air sims did it in the past and did it well.)

As to both FASA and Origin, yep...both bought up and both are now officially dead/closed. And both were fantastic. So sad.
 
defiant007 said:
Game developers have realized what the movies studios realized a long time ago....they can make more money appealling to the cookie cutter gen Y and gen Z audiences whose sole motivation in life is instant gratification. Forget about any game which requires any ounce of intelligence to learn and master, they are simply deemed to complicated for a population of gamers who have been weaned on console games which only require the use of a joystick/d-pad and three buttons.
Click to expand...

I want so much to argue with you right now on this point, but alas I can't. heh. I think you hit the nail on the head, though it's the last thing I want to believe. I guess out best hope is a studio that WANTS to make something like this and isn't willing to compromise their vision for sales purposes, which is...a longshot.

And not to piss off gamers who enjoy instant gratification sometimes. *I* enjoy games you can just jump in and get into too...arcade games or what have you. But after a while, it becomes so repetitive to me that I want something with some more meat, depth, and difficulty and that requires me to put in at least a little bit of time to be competent at.

Seems like the only games being produced anymore are FPS and the occasional RPG. Both are great, but there's so much more that can be done...

Thanks all for your input.
 
Falcon 4 saw new life not long ago its worth a buy if you dont have it
but you need a good flight stick and throttle for it and lot of time like months to do the training to get to were you can even muddle threw the single player :cool::eek:

edit
id KILL for a new Wing Commander game
 
I know what you mean. There was a game called Imperium Galactica and it was a very cool space/rts game. I doubt if anyone remembers it but I definately miss games as such. Maybe someone has an epic title in the works...
 
The Red said:
try DarkStar One for a nice space sim with interesting story...

Space Force: Rogue Universe is also complex and worth it...
Click to expand...

Don't forget Tarr Chronicles. I thought the demo was fun, and it got a 7/10 at IGN(not that I put too much stock in IGN's reviews - gamesradar.com FTW)

Of all the old games I used to love so much, I'd like to see Heavy Gear 3 the most. I LOVED the Heavy Gear games.
 
GoldenTiger said:
Sign of the times... people want things dumbed down :(.
Click to expand...

we'll be pushing the right shaped blocks through the right shaped holes soon

reminds me of that part in the new resident evil movie, haha, now replace that angry zombie with a gamer and you've got a sight to behold...um

/tangent

*edit*

quick link for anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about, funny stuff.
 
Mech4 fan here. My namesake is my call sign from those days (S.A.W.)(GhostBear 4ever). Stands for Serious Ass Whoopin as I kicked some serious ass with my Diashi mech. Im also a woodworker in RL. All my online friends knew me as SAW so I kept the name :).

There was a thread floating around here a few weeks ago talkin about a Mechwarrior game being developed now, however, MS sold the rights to the game to some other developer (or something like that) and thoughts are that the game wont be all that it could be because of this.

But, maybe they will get it right and put pride into their programming.
 
Good post WolfpupNX. I'm sure we all feel as you do about this stuff. defiant007 wrote a good response to what is going on. It's very sad to see the industry like this, with seemingly no change in sight. At least we have the chance to remember...right?
 
I have to say that Darkstar One is more likely going to be one of those arcadey games that the OP doesn't want, especially if he's played Privateer and Freespace.

It's extremely, incredibly, repetitive. Once you notice that it's just repeating the same star systems on your path, and that the sidequests have no substance, you realize that the game is intensely linear as well. It's fun for a awhile, but it's not a game that should have been longer than 8-10 hours without more being added to it. It's longer, but just due to stretching out a long long grind.
 
Thanks for all the great posts. Well, I think it's been established I'm not alone in wishing for some titles like this, and as long as there's a market, I suppose there's some hope. Maybe eventually some passionate developer (perhaps something new) will realize there's an untapped market and start making these things again. Like I said, it's a longshot, but we can hope. I have to think a new mech title or space title, if good enough, would sell well...

As far as playing some older games, I never did get a chance to play MechWarrior 4. Falcon 4 also sounds interesting, though that may be a bit too difficult to get into for me - I'm not sure. And the new rig will be running Vista (and probably 64), so I'm not sure how compatibility is going to be with some of these older titles.

I just remember a time where, even if a particular game series or genre wasn't in development, there was wolrk in at LEAST one of these genres, and usually multiple titles in multiple genres. I guess it just shocked me that there's nothing. It's like the PC gaming spectrum used to be a rainbow, and now there's only two colors left in it. heh...

Good to hear there's a mech game in development, and hopefully it'll be a good one (any more details?)... It is a bit worrisome that FASA's out of business, but that's not to say a new team can't do a great job with something.

Darkstar One sounds like it might be a good fix for a bit - not sure it has the meat I'm looking for, but you take what you can get. I'll have to check into some of the other things listed here as well. Thanks again!
 
Sadly the consoles seem to have more of these games lately. Chromehounds and Armored Core on Xbox360 are two recent games. Chromehounds especially plays like a complex PC sim and would have been great on the PC.
 
Hmmm. I wonder why these games aren't multiplatform and released on PC then... You'd think they'd want to tap that market.
 
If you're wanting air combat sims, I really like IL2. It's WWII, so it might not be what you're looking for, if you're more into the modern stuff, but it is pretty good.
 
Mark305TBI said:
If you're wanting air combat sims, I really like IL2. It's WWII, so it might not be what you're looking for, if you're more into the modern stuff, but it is pretty good.
Click to expand...

I'll second that. They just came out this year with IL2 1946. New expansion with all the previous versions on a single DVD. Most realistic flight modeling anywhere.
 
I generally feel the same way as the OP. Some of my first real forays into PC gaming were playing Xwing with my father. I'd love to see more simulations today. How about something as deep as Tie-Fighter, but with the ability to board and control capital ships as well? Hell, you can merge FPS gameplay in a Battlefield 2142-esc "assault on the control room" to bring in other gamers.

Picture all the different roles people could play. Fighters, blasting each other and downing shield generators on capital vessels. "Space Marines" being skillfully piloted through hostile fire until the transport pilot can dock with an enemy capital ship for an assault. Players commanding capital ships, launching squads, and manning turrets for defense...

Super mega ultra bonus points if there were giant robots, as well as conventional spacecraft!
 
I really enjoyed the Armored Core mech game I played when I borrowed my buddies xbox or PS2 way back when (so long ago I don't even remember which console it was o_O). It was fun because you got to build your mech from the ground up.

I'd love to see more space / mech games for PC but sadly its mostly FPS or MMO. There was a mech MMO, can't remember the name atm but it was by NCSoft irrc.
 
defiant007 said:
Game developers have realized what the movies studios realized a long time ago....they can make more money appealing to the cookie cutter gen Y and gen Z audiences whose sole motivation in life is instant gratification.
Click to expand...

There aren't sims for the same reason there aren't adventure games. Development costs are rising and the software isn't selling. Sims get even worser because they need specialized controllers.

Yeah, bitch all you want about consolers and their joysticks. But how do you control a flight sim on the computer? With a joystick. My Joystick setup for years looked like This one. Oh noes! They are dumbing down the games! Play Wing Commander again. It wasn't near as realistic as you remember it. You could have easily made it work with a modern console controller.

Capcom had Steel Battalion for the Xbox. It was more realistic then any other mech game, and it had a 200 dollar controller with 40 buttons. Nobody has ever fucking heard of it.

In other news...
 
The games I'm talking about include MechWarrior 2 (I had *such* fun with that one),
Click to expand...

Haha, me too man. Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries was the one I played alot. "Reactor online, sensors online, weapons online. All systems nominal." That was such a great game. The opening video was cool too.
 
err well i dont mean to get off on another subject, but i have used a mouse and keyboard for all of the space sims and mech games etc that i have played, and they have worked fine.

To me seeing a f'in dork playing a game with a game pad or joystick makes me want to give the nerd a wedgy to the 10th degree.

Again mouse/key > joystick/pad. Looks like your masturbating when your playing with a damn j-stick lol.

If you cant play a complex sim with keyboard and mouse i dont see how the hell you can play with the later. I mean come on keyboard and mouse has like 100% more binds.

Yes the time of dumbed down games has fell upon us.
 
zombix said:
err well i dont mean to get off on another subject, but i have used a mouse and keyboard for all of the space sims and mech games etc that i have played, and they have worked fine.

To me seeing a f'in dork playing a game with a game pad or joystick makes me want to give the nerd a wedgy to the 10th degree.

Again mouse/key > joystick/pad. Looks like your masturbating when your playing with a damn j-stick lol.

If you cant play a complex sim with keyboard and mouse i dont see how the hell you can play with the later. I mean come on keyboard and mouse has like 100% more binds.

Yes the time of dumbed down games has fell upon us.
Click to expand...

I think it's a matter of personal preference. I dont think any real arguement could be made stating that a gamepad is superior to mouse/keyboard for FPSs, it just isnt. It probably boils down to a matter of experience and/or a case of the ol' ignorance is bliss.
 
I really like using a joystick for flight sims because it makes you feel like you are actually flying vs a keyboard / mouse.
 
I agree with the OP as well. I miss the company Jane's. They are still around, they don't do games anymore. Longbow 2, F-15, ATF, Fleet Command, and WWII Fighters were great games. I wish they made more of those.

I really want to like Falcon 4: AF, but it's just too damn hard. I have tried to learn how to do absolutely basic things in that game for about 2 weeks straight, and still I couldn't get by. I still would like to learn, but the learning curve is still way to long for me.

I would love to see something like Falcon 4: AF, but a little easier. I also really enjoyed playing Silent Hunter III. That was a pretty good simulation.

I suppose I got my start on simulation games. X-wing and Sim City were the games that got me into computers. It would be nice to see a really good game that caters to the sim genre again. I need another Jane's.
 
On the MechWarrior front, there is hope. On the Crysis engine, no less. They even have legal permission from Microsoft, who closed down FASA (IIRC). You want it faster, volunteer (if you got the skillz):

http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/


That could be years, unfortunately. Oh well.

On other sim fronts, I haven't needed to bust out my joystick in YEARS. That is too bad/so sad.
 
Xaeos said:
I generally feel the same way as the OP. Some of my first real forays into PC gaming were playing Xwing with my father. I'd love to see more simulations today. How about something as deep as Tie-Fighter, but with the ability to board and control capital ships as well? Hell, you can merge FPS gameplay in a Battlefield 2142-esc "assault on the control room" to bring in other gamers.

Picture all the different roles people could play. Fighters, blasting each other and downing shield generators on capital vessels. "Space Marines" being skillfully piloted through hostile fire until the transport pilot can dock with an enemy capital ship for an assault. Players commanding capital ships, launching squads, and manning turrets for defense...

Super mega ultra bonus points if there were giant robots, as well as conventional spacecraft!
Click to expand...

ever played battlefront 2 ??? hells of fun, have a mode JUST like this, albeit a little dumbed down, but still heck of a lot of fun
 
Wondernerd said:
There aren't sims for the same reason there aren't adventure games. Development costs are rising and the software isn't selling. Sims get even worser because they need specialized controllers.

Yeah, bitch all you want about consolers and their joysticks. But how do you control a flight sim on the computer? With a joystick. My Joystick setup for years looked like This one. Oh noes! They are dumbing down the games! Play Wing Commander again. It wasn't near as realistic as you remember it. You could have easily made it work with a modern console controller.

Capcom had Steel Battalion for the Xbox. It was more realistic then any other mech game, and it had a 200 dollar controller with 40 buttons. Nobody has ever fucking heard of it.

In other news...
Click to expand...

Special controllers? I played every sim I owned with a keyboard. :rolleyes:
 
Starsiege Tribes was awesome. First and last Tribes game I played. Not sure how the rest panned out.
 
Few replies:

To those who recommended IL2, I've heard that before - I may have to check that one out.

As to the person who likes Jane's, yeah - they had some incredible looking sims. Only one I ever bought was Longbow 2, and it was just too complex for me to learn. (Though to be fair, I was trying to learn on the most realistic settings, and I think I should have started with something easier). That might be one that's a little too complex for me.

Mech sims and space sims I have the most experience with. The only flight sim I played and really enjoyed was Top Gun from Microprose. I'm not sure how popular it was (DOS game as I recall), but it was a nice mix of action and realism, but not so real you had to spend weeks learning it. It was one of those story based games with cheesey Top Gun movie cutscenes (not the actual movie...stuff shot for the game...I think the one seargent/commander actor from the movie starred in it). At any rate, I remember being thrilled with learning how to land on carriers (lower landing gear, get the right speed, adjust flaps, use the HUD to guide yourself...like I said, complex enough to make you feel like you were really doing it, but accessible enough that it didn't take too long to learn), and the combat was good too. It had some really nice training missions as well to teach you stuff like landing, and each mission, taking off, flying the mission, and landing was part of it (don't like games that autoland you - landing's always been one of my favorite parts). Interesting scenery for the time as well (remember a training mission where you had to fly low through the grand canyon...pixelated but interesting and nicelooking for the time - heh. It had little corner windows that showed what happened to enemy planes, etc. when you shot 'em down, etc., so had a nice action mix too.

As to the comment about flying with a keyboard/mouse, I just can't personally imagine that. A joystick just feels right when flying to me...feels like, as someone else said, you're actually in command of whatever you're piloting. You don't get the same feel with a keyboard/mouse (even though I swear by 'em for FPS's and some mech games).

In response to the person who said a lot of mech games and such are now released on consoles, yeah - I'm a little tempted to try them out. I never liked gamepads (for FPS or sims), but I know some do have other controllers/etc. available, and I'm sure it works well for some games. And yes, the original Wing Commander wasn't incredibly complex (in fact, I think it was even released on Nintendo), but I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to take the later games or especially things like the X-Wing/TIE Fighter games or even MechWarrior 2 and port 'em over with all of the features intact. (You've got all of the various targetting variations, throttle, power adjustment to systems, weapons configuration, camera views, etc., etc...I'd be impressed if you could find a way to do all that with a gamepad and do it well, and I know for some games that just wouldn't be possible - you'd have to simplify some features).

Oh, and I'll throw out my own suggestion for those who haven't played it and enjoyed games like X-Wing/Tie Fighter. Microsoft's Starlancer is actually a really fun game with a nice campaign and story. It's a little tricky to get running on XP, but it can be done (for me it would crash once in a while but worked pretty well overall as long as 3D sound was off...and I just finished it a few months ago). There's a demo out there (different missions than the full) if you want to try it. Actually, pretty sure that's one of the last space sims ever released on PC. But yeah, certainly worth a go for those who miss 'em.

And that Mech project on Crysis engine looks interesting. Wish I was talented in game design, but alas, nope. heh.

Anyways, great replies all!
 
Betrayer00GT said:
On the MechWarrior front, there is hope. On the Crysis engine, no less. They even have legal permission from Microsoft, who closed down FASA (IIRC). You want it faster, volunteer (if you got the skillz)
Click to expand...
Interesting. It might have made more sense to do this on Tech 4 (perhaps they'll realize this at some point), but it looks like they're on the right track. I might see about helping them flesh out some of the sound -- it'd be challenging, at least, and servo/actuator noises are neat.
 
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