When will the miner wars be over?

_l_

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it's Monday July 17th and there's currently two EVGA GTX 1070 FTW's on ebay priced $460 OBO and 3 @ $475 and they are not new listings. EVGA GTX 1060 6GB twin fan cards above $280 seem to not be selling at that price point any more. Haven't seen these cards posted this low(with rare exception here and there) in weeks
 
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AltTabbins

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it's Monday July 17th and there's currently two EVGA GTX 1070 FTW's on ebay priced $460 OBO and 3 @ $475 and they are not new listings. EVGA GTX 1060 6GB twin fan cards above $280 seem to not be selling at that price point any more. Haven't seen these cards posted this low(with rare exception here and there) in weeks

There's also 480 and 580s in stock for the first time in a long time. They are still miner priced, but if coin prices don't pick back up it might change in a couple weeks.
 

wrangler

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:watching:


100% heat here as well. Long time member.
Don't like what I'm seeing.
You don't have to like that I don't like what's going on but I get to say it just like you get to say what you say.
Except for people can tell me I'm full of shit but I'm the one who gets the warning.
Oh well.

Pretty sure I am allowed to ask questions in the FS/FT forums and I will. Appropriately and within the rules.
 
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My penis is larger than yours and I have mom testimonials to prove it. Wait, that's not what this is about. Yes it is.
 

thebufenator

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:watching:


100% heat here as well. Long time member.
Don't like what I'm seeing.
You don't have to like that I don't like what's going on but I get to say it just like you get to say what you say.
Except for people can tell me I'm full of shit but I'm the one who gets the warning.
Oh well.

Pretty sure I am allowed to ask questions in the FS/FT forums and I will. Appropriately and within the rules.

Why would you have a problem buying a mining card from another member who has 100% heat?

I wouldn't not buy a used card from bitcointalk.org with btc, that's just asking to be scammed.

Like I said, I've sold a small farm before, and not one buyer reported problems or asked for a refund. Granted, I didn't sell the Sapphire DualX cards which had a 50% fan failure rate.......
 

GoldenTiger

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:watching:


100% heat here as well. Long time member.
Don't like what I'm seeing.
You don't have to like that I don't like what's going on but I get to say it just like you get to say what you say.
Except for people can tell me I'm full of shit but I'm the one who gets the warning.
Oh well.

Pretty sure I am allowed to ask questions in the FS/FT forums and I will. Appropriately and within the rules.
Good luck. Hassling people and all probably won't go well for you, just guessing.
 

_l_

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on ebay EVGA GTX 1070 FTW still at $450 (used) while EVGA GTX 1080's (new) are selling for $550 so who would by a used or new 1070? At that price point I wouldn't. Crazy pricing in the market right now
 

_l_

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ok, with regards to what wrangler was saying here's an ebay listing that shows what he is concerned about regarding cards used for mining but the seller not posting it as such

Note the following in that listing:

- EVGA GTX 1070 FTW was much sought after for mining
- includes a PCI-e extension, used by many miners but very occasionally by a gamer but realistically, no
- the clincher is, the card is used but they listed it as LIKE NEW

There is a very remote possibility that that card (and the other 2 of the same they have for sale in the same listing) were used for gaming only - but I seriously doubt it
 
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Dayaks

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ok, with regards to what wrangler was saying (and IMHO all the undeserved flack he was receiving) here's an ebay listing that shows what he is concerned about regarding cards used for mining but the seller not posting it as such

Note the following in that listing:

- EVGA GTX 1070 FTW was much sought after for mining
- includes a PCI-e extension, used by many miners but very occasionally by a gamer but realistically, no
- the clincher is, the card is used but they listed it as LIKE NEW

There is a very remote possibility that that card (and the other 2 of the same they have for sale in the same listing) were used for gaming only - but I seriously doubt it and wouldn't trust a liar to tell the truth anyways (like-new). And that's the problem with sellers who lie, deceive and cheat others ... they are very foxy until the hunter and his dogs come. Eventually, the fox will have it's head stuffed and mounted on a wall. You WILL harvest what you plant ...

Considering the mining spike lasted 2-3 months it probably is like new.

If that is the case I don't see the problem. I run my cards 18 hours a day at 150% power...
 

Crosshairs

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There is a very remote possibility that that card (and the other 2 of the same they have for sale in the same listing) were used for gaming only - but I seriously doubt it and wouldn't trust a liar to tell the truth anyways .

Look at his other listings..there is absolutely NO WAY that card and the 2 others were used for anything other than mining.
 

ElBerryKM13

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These cards all come with more than 1 year warranty so I don't know why people are afraid to buy used cards. Evga cards come with 3 year no hassle warranty why do you care if it was used for mining or watching 4k porn 24/7 ?
 

_l_

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These cards all come with more than 1 year warranty so I don't know why people are afraid to buy used cards. Evga cards come with 3 year no hassle warranty why do you care if it was used for mining or watching 4k porn 24/7 ?

see, that was wrangler's point. You said "these cards" come with more than 1 yr warranty and though that is a truth, it's also misleading because MSI, Gigabyte and ASUS do not honor warranty transfers (they told me this) - EVGA is the only company who does it right and good for the customers and that's why I only buy EVGA whenever possible for all my hardware needs
 
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wrangler

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If you want to buy a card that was used 24/7 for mining and your happy with the price, buy it.
But to be told that the card is like new and you should pay close to retail is ridiculous. What you must understand is that some dirty miners actually believe that. They think the card is actually better than new because they made sure it worked, undervolted it and trust them, it always had AC.
BWAAAAHAAAHHHHHAAAA!!!!!
Disingenuousness is the norm not transparency.

I'm here to advocate for transparency. Imho, transparency will kill this thing.

If you've seen me around the forums, you know I'm politically conservative. Profit is not a dirty word to me.
You guys want to sell your dirty miners cards, fine. Be truthful. Caveat Emptor.
 

spine

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If you want to buy a card that was used 24/7 for mining and your happy with the price, buy it.
But to be told that the card is like new and you should pay close to retail is ridiculous. What you must understand is that some dirty miners actually believe that. They think the card is actually better than new because they made sure it worked, undervolted it and trust them, it always had AC.
BWAAAAHAAAHHHHHAAAA!!!!!
Disingenuousness is the norm not transparency.

I'm here to advocate for transparency. Imho, transparency will kill this thing.

If you've seen me around the forums, you know I'm politically conservative. Profit is not a dirty word to me.
You guys want to sell your dirty miners cards, fine. Be truthful. Caveat Emptor.

I've been thinking about this, and I'm now coming to the conclusion that mining cards might actually be a better purchase 2nd hand! :confused:


I'll re-iterate what I said previously; that it's dry solder joints breaking that will cause a card to fail. Repeated heating up, then cooling down will accelerate this process. Eventually the solder cracks (usually a BB solder joint under some ram chips) and that's it. If you're lucky you can bake the card in an oven for 10 mins and bring it back.

A mining card, however, will be on, and just on, no stress beside being for what it was designed for. Does it run hotter? Arguably no, infact, I'd say mining card run cooler on average, since like, how much of the system does mining use?, it's almost pure GPU right? Since most people don't watercool, gaming means their PC as a whole will be hotter (and thus the gcard as a result) compared to the same rig mining. But do mining rigs run hotter? Unusually open chassis in a basement, hard to say, let's assume yes. But is running hot necessarily a problem if continuous?

You see, you've fallen into the trap of assuming all technology behaves the same, which is that typically for most things, the more you use it, there more you wear it out, the shorter it will last.

But this may not apply to Graphics cards.


And so I would argue that an ex-mining card is less likely to suddenly die than an ex-gaming card, especially if the latter has been overclocked, and who the fuck doesn't? :p
 

thebufenator

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see, that was wrangler's point. You said "these cards" come with more than 1 yr warranty and though that is a truth, it's also misleading because MSI, Gigabyte and ASUS do not honor warranty transfers (they told me this) - EVGA is the only company who does it right and good for the customers and that's why I only buy EVGA whenever possible for all my hardware needs

I don't think that is accurate. I purchased a used MSI 6970 years back and it died doing litecoin mining after a week are so. Very odd. MSI sent me a 7970 as a replacement. I didn't even have a receipt for the card. When I bought it used it hadn't been used for mining yet either.

RMA'n an ASUS card on the other hand was a pain in the ass......
 

mnewxcv

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I don't think that is accurate. I purchased a used MSI 6970 years back and it died doing litecoin mining after a week are so. Very odd. MSI sent me a 7970 as a replacement. I didn't even have a receipt for the card. When I bought it used it hadn't been used for mining yet either.

RMA'n an ASUS card on the other hand was a pain in the ass......

Gigabyte has been no questions asked Rma for me. Within warranty of course.
 

atp1916

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spine thank you for your post. To add, quite a few gamers overvolt their cards too. I know very very few miners who overvolt - it kills the efficiency. Most miners who actually know what they are doing tend to undervolt, slow fan speeds, and slow down core/ram speeds depending on what they are mining. In fact, most miners will do anything not to kill their cards, if anything to preserve resale value!

mnewxcv that has been my experience too, with Gigabyte. Back in late 2014, quite a few Windforce 7950s would flame out due to vrm overheating. I never had a single issue RMAing any of them, if they were within the warranty - even ones bought on Ebay.

wrangler I do see your point with respect to transparency. If the card was used for mining, then state it clearly in the description. If the buyer doesn't mind, then so be it. That much i can find common ground on you with. The impact on mining on a card - no :p
 
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D

Deleted member 88227

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So you have a problem with GPUs that are mined on, but no problem with GPUs that are running DC projects? DC projects have been using GPUs for years before mining was even a thing, yet those cards aren't any less reliable than cards used for gaming.

I've had brand new cards arrive DOA, cards that I've only gamed on last 2 months before artifacting and I've had cards that I've ran DC projects on die as well as others that have been running DC projects for YEARS without any issues. This isn't to say that I've not had my fair share of cards I've had to RMA due to failures, but I've also owned and flipped more GPUs than most people in this thread combined.

If a GPU is gonna fail, it's going to fail regardless of what it's used for. Gaming, mining, DC, rendering, watching YT or just displaying a web browser.
 

joshy111

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Its hard to tell exactly when it will be over, a similar thing happened when the bitcoin craze first happened and initially the formula that the graphics cards are used to break down was quite easy though now its vastly more complex and its simply not worth mining with a card anymore for bitcoin.

Though as some people have already said this difficulty is much easier with Ethereum and the price has recently bloated so hence the craze atm, though I would predict it will not last too much longer maybe a handful of months to half a year
 

Hakaba

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Man what is up with the misinformation and mining hate? Well minus the lack of video cards.

My rig of 1070s sit around 55-60c, overclocked memory, and undervolted. If anyone is overvolting and overclocking everything to the max and beyond while mining, they are doing it wrong. Or they have free power and don't care about the card.

Rough estimates, as I am not on island to check, but +500 on memory and 100% power net 31.2 MH/s, now +500 on memory and 90% netted 31.1 MH/s, and going lower might drop it to 31 or less... While varying in different temperatures, takes a few to see where the limits are to keep everything stable.

Point is most miners, or those in it for the long run, treat their equipment right. And shooting for .2 or .001 MH/s while throwing power to the max does not help.

Now if they are lying about card usage or try to charge near MSRP when selling used... Don't buy it? But don't expect every card used for mining to go nuclear as soon as you use it.
 

stewartjm

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The difference this time is that all the new proof of work algorithms are designed to be ASIC resistant. This was done primarily by using algorithms that require lots of high bandwidth memory. So any ASIC design would likely only be 1.5x-5x faster per unit cost, rather than the 10-1000+ x faster per unit cost ASIC designs, that were developed for bitcoin.

Meaning, this time, there probably won't be a clean cut off date when some new ASIC design comes in and makes all the GPUs worthless overnight. So, expect lulls, but don't expect it to be over any time soon.
 

next-Jin

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I built a 6x GTX 1060 rig for mining Ethereum and it seems like a bust. I've made $200 so far, but at the current rate I'll only be bringing in $250/month, which barely covers electricity (forget recouping the cost of the rig).

Since I already spent the money, I'll probably just let it run and see what happens (or maybe switch to another currency if something else pops up) but right now it's not looking profitable.

Wth are your electricity prices that 250 barely covers it? I have a 6 GPU setup too and only pull 510w from the wall with .10 kWh.

I mine around 140 MHs
 

_l_

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"But don't expect every card used for mining to go nuclear as soon as you use it."
and therein lies the concern gamers have, cards falsely listed and the true condition of not the few but the many ... I don't expect every card used for mining will be questionable but I do want to know if it's been used for mining or not and based on years of buying/selling hardware on ebay most will likely not reveal such data. I have to weed through the many to get to the few that post their items in a way they would want it too be if they were the buyer
 
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Hakaba

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and therein lies the concern gamers have, cards falsely listed and the true condition of not the few but the many ... I don't expect every card used for mining will be questionable but I do want to know if it's been used for mining or not and based on years of buying/selling hardware on ebay most will likely not reveal such data. I have to weed through the many to get to the few that post their items in a way they would want it too be if they were the buyer

When I say this I mean no disrespect to you or others around here that hate miners with a passion, but I believe a lot of discussed fears are irrational? I mean if people have a fear of buying underclocked cards that run 24/7, they should have fears for buying...

Any card that was overvolted and overclocked, shooting for that last bit of FPS, or 3D Mark, or other benchmarking suite. (So maybe any gamer shooting for 100Hz+ or 4K gaming, anyone overclocks their entire system)

Any previous water cooled component that were most likely put under water for the sole reason of pushing it further than it was designed for. (Again most, not all, I understand people go that route for silence, but gotta question them.)

Any card that was not given the proper ESD treatment when being removed/handled/packed.

Any card that is not a FE or AMD equivalent, since any thing that is Twin Frozer/ICX was most likely bought to be pushed. (I know you can push FE cards, but man my 1080ti feels like it can heat a room. I also understand people wait and buy them since they run cooler.)

Any video card that is bought new (while you can exchange a DOA or a card that died within warranty, you should be able to return a used card as well. Depends on manufacture.)



What I would recommend for anyone that is looking to buy on eBay is to...

See if the poster is new (most likely trying to recoup the cost quickly due "crypto crash", people looking only to make a quick buck.)

Any poster who is selling 4+ cards in one sale, esp if those series of cards are known for mining.

Any poster who has 6+ post selling 1 card, again trying to cut their "losses" and recoup as much as possible.

Any poster who is selling a single card, do yourself a favor, check his sale/comment history, if the last week or so he sold multiple 480x, 580x, 1060, etc.... Most likely mining cards.

On the site, check their post history, you might be able to make a good guess.
 
D

Deleted member 88301

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I hope it's over soon. I do understand the allure of mining, and as a guy who couldn't possibly get in on it, I guess I'm curious/envious. But I'm also tired of it affecting the price of vid cards, and I'm just tired of hearing about it. Minor Vent, Mine On.
 

AltTabbins

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Mining profits seem to be going back up slightly over the last few days.

It's normalizing around 215. Still worth something but a lot of people are having issues making worthwhile margins after power costs and the rise of gpu prices. You can't really buy a $400 rx 580 anymore and expect a 2 month turnover like you previously could. I don't mine but I think there will be one more surge before a hard crash.
 
D

Deleted member 184142

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Well, AMD and Nvidia could just make enough cards to go around, right? Supply and demand.

Supply and demand, yes, but you also have them looking at trends and the possible future.

If they up supply, that means producing far more chips and the AIB making far more cards, which is great for everyone. However they have openly stated they fear how stable crypto mining is, as they know a large section of the market right now is just that, so they are making a gamble on a market some dont believe is stable at all and if it crashes after upping manufacturing while you have demand fall off, but not just that, you also then have a flood on the market of used cards undercutting new card prices, further reducing demand and you also have abuse of RMA at the same time, as many who just got cards still covered will return them in mass or get exchanges to get new cards for higher resale, which is exactly what they saw in the last short crash. So it's a three fold impact if that one market goes under for them, and that is a big gamble, but if they stay where they are they already have record sales, though they do admit that they understand that hurts the gamer market and they are unsure of eco system sales, such as lower gsync and freesync monitor sales, down to cases and KB/mice, because miners don't need any of that.

So spooling up production to meet demand isn't as easy as one might expect for something like this, as the situation is very complex. If crypto takes off however and one mfg takes the risk of production, it could be a game changer for them. Not sure that is something any of them are willing to risk however.
 

Dayaks

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Supply and demand, yes, but you also have them looking at trends and the possible future.

If they up supply, that means producing far more chips and the AIB making far more cards, which is great for everyone. However they have openly stated they fear how stable crypto mining is, as they know a large section of the market right now is just that, so they are making a gamble on a market some dont believe is stable at all and if it crashes after upping manufacturing while you have demand fall off, but not just that, you also then have a flood on the market of used cards undercutting new card prices, further reducing demand and you also have abuse of RMA at the same time, as many who just got cards still covered will return them in mass or get exchanges to get new cards for higher resale, which is exactly what they saw in the last short crash. So it's a three fold impact if that one market goes under for them, and that is a big gamble, but if they stay where they are they already have record sales, though they do admit that they understand that hurts the gamer market and they are unsure of eco system sales, such as lower gsync and freesync monitor sales, down to cases and KB/mice, because miners don't need any of that.

So spooling up production to meet demand isn't as easy as one might expect for something like this, as the situation is very complex. If crypto takes off however and one mfg takes the risk of production, it could be a game changer for them. Not sure that is something any of them are willing to risk however.

No sane mfg would spool up for these crypto bubbles. By the time you get your cards to market it's popped then you're stuck with all your cash tied up and cards that get devalued because you can't sell them.

It is good timing for nVidia if they launch Volta soon since their 10 series inventory was depleted.
 

Kogan

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Any updates on when newegg will be restocking 10 series cards?
They've been in stock for about a week now (if you want gigabyte or evga), though they seem to be selling most of them via ebay. They're selling them at MSRP, which is far better deal than all the used ones on sale (for more).
 

FearTheCow

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Hey miners, I have 2 of the exact same 2016 model year car for sale, one has 13k miles and the other has 130k miles, you all would prefer to buy the 130k mile one because it was driven "gently" 18 hours a day right?

Kind if pissed right now because I am looking to upgrade and all you miners are fucking the prices of cards up. Though trying to say your abused cards are better than cards used for gaming is just plain stupid as I showed in my car example.
 

GoldenTiger

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Hey miners, I have 2 of the exact same 2016 model year car for sale, one has 13k miles and the other has 130k miles, you all would prefer to buy the 130k mile one because it was driven "gently" 18 hours a day right?

Kind if pissed right now because I am looking to upgrade and all you miners are fucking the prices of cards up. Though trying to say your abused cards are better than cards used for gaming is just plain stupid as I showed in my car example.
The car example is absurd, and you're pissed because someone is using the cards differently than you would. Post rating out of 10 is a solid 1.5!
 

KazeoHin

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Hey miners, I have 2 of the exact same 2016 model year car for sale, one has 13k miles and the other has 130k miles, you all would prefer to buy the 130k mile one because it was driven "gently" 18 hours a day right?

Kind if pissed right now because I am looking to upgrade and all you miners are fucking the prices of cards up. Though trying to say your abused cards are better than cards used for gaming is just plain stupid as I showed in my car example.

Don't blame the miners. The card manufacturers are the ones who rode this wave like it was some sort of party, refusing to sell mining-specific cards or increase volume. Sure, everyone showed off prototype binned mining cards, but why would they sell those cards at a lower price when the miners were ALREADY buying the full-priced cards en masse?
 
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