What to expect from new AMD and Nvidia cards

Stoly said:
and the 5700xt is below the RTX 2080ti, so your point is?
Click to expand...
2080Ti has been out almost twice as long as well.

For the price range and time period, 2060 Super 1.09% and 5700XT .81% has about the same amount of time for sells since they were like within a month of each other. AMD is doing OK here but not great either. I would think AMD would be extremely pleased if they could duplicate that percentage difference on each price range of cards on the upcoming generation, market share of 40% or better for AMD would be an exceptional improvement for discrete graphics and not so good for Nvidia even if they still lead.
 
The full numbers:

Turing:
Code: 
 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650          3.16% +0.17%
 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 SUPER    0.34% +0.08%
 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660          1.72% +0.08%
 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660 SUPER    1.18% +0.24%
 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660          2.68% -0.03%
 NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060          2.56% +0.03%
 NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 SUPER    1.09% +0.12%
 NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070          1.89% +0.04%
 NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER    1.84% +0.24%
 NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080          0.99% +0.01%
 NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER    0.71% +0.07%
 NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti       0.91% +0.02%

RDNA:

Code: 
AMD Radeon RX 5700        0.24%   0.00%
AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT     0.81%  +0.07%

That would be 19.07% market share vs 1.05% marketshare for Turing vs. RDNA

That is not "doing OK"...that is getting slammed...by quite a factor.
All those Turing sales goes in R&D for next generations...AMD is becoming more and more irrelevant.

Other numbers for the fun of it:

Code: 
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti    1.57% -0.01%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 Ti     0.37% -0.02%
AMD Radeon RX 570             1.45% +0.11%
AMD Radeon RX 580             2.16% +0.10%

People whining about Turing seem to have the world upside down....~1/5 gamers have Turing atm...what a failure /s
 
Factum said:
The full numbers:

Turing:
Code: 
 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650          3.16% +0.17%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 SUPER    0.34% +0.08%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660          1.72% +0.08%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660 SUPER    1.18% +0.24%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660          2.68% -0.03%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060          2.56% +0.03%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 SUPER    1.09% +0.12%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070          1.89% +0.04%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER    1.84% +0.24%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080          0.99% +0.01%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER    0.71% +0.07%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti       0.91% +0.02%

RDNA:

Code: 
AMD Radeon RX 5700        0.24%   0.00%
AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT     0.81%  +0.07%

That would be 19.07% market share vs 1.05% marketshare for Turing vs. RDNA

That is not "doing OK"...that is getting slammed...by quite a factor.
All those Turing sales goes in R&D for next generations...AMD is becoming more and more irrelevant.

Other numbers for the fun of it:

Code: 
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti    1.57% -0.01%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 Ti     0.37% -0.02%
AMD Radeon RX 570             1.45% +0.11%
AMD Radeon RX 580             2.16% +0.10%

People whining about Turing seem to have the world upside down....~1/5 gamers have Turing atm...what a failure /s
Click to expand...

I should have checked. If people voted on enthusiast GPU of the decade, 1080 ti would win in a landslide. Given the constant 1080ti praise, and what appears to be the number of people here with a 1080 Ti, I assumed it's sales would have been multiples of 2080ti. It's much closer than I thought, given the massive price jump for 2080ti.

Though I have been pointing out for a while that Turning did a lot better than many claim or as is often the case here, better than many would have liked.

The only fly in the ointment, is that the very successful 16 series doesn't have RT/Tensor cores. Something I expect to better represented with Ampere (lower end cards with RT/Tensor).

With the success of recent iteration of DLSS it's really too bad they didn't keep just the Tensor cores on 16 series.
 
Most folks are not going to go out and 'plunk' down $1200-2200 on a graphics card, so those numbers are not surprising.
The vast majority will stay in the $350-600 range and be content with the uptick in performance on games they currently play.
That's the price segment I personally purchase in.
I generally take a look at what I am currently playing and determine if it can benefit from the uplift in new hardware improvement.
If the cost is within my scale I make the transition.
The performance of my GTX1080Ti series was a massive jump over past hardware but even then, I was not paying that premium.
The only reason I owned that Duke Edition I sold a few days ago, was because a co-worker was off-loading it within my price range.
I believe top-end cards from both companies will be outside of what most deem reasonable...irrespective of global conditions.
The minute those companies figured out people would pay insane prices for cards, the game changed.
I do not personally see it going below what it is now (for either company) where the top-end GPUs are concerned.
Nvidia started the trend but AMD watched, so they'll follow suit.
Look at the CPU market and you'll see a similar example.
I'll be pleasantly surprised if the cost at release for the mid tier is within that quoted range I mentioned.
 
Saabjock said:
Most folks are not going to go out and 'plunk' down $1200-2200 on a graphics card, so those numbers are not surprising.
The vast majority will stay in the $350-600 range and be content with the uptick in performance on games they currently play.
That's the price segment I personally purchase in.
I generally take a look at what I am currently playing and determine if it can benefit from the uplift in new hardware improvement.
If the cost is within my scale I make the transition.
The performance of my GTX1080Ti series was a massive jump over past hardware but even then, I was not paying that premium.
The only reason I owned that Duke Edition I sold a few days ago, was because a co-worker was off-loading it within my price range.
I believe top-end cards from both companies will be outside of what most deem reasonable...irrespective of global conditions.
The minute those companies figured out people would pay insane prices for cards, the game changed.
I do not personally see it going below what it is now (for either company) where the top-end GPUs are concerned.
Nvidia started the trend but AMD watched, so they'll follow suit.
Look at the CPU market and you'll see a similar example.
I'll be pleasantly surprised if the cost at release for the mid tier is within that quoted range I mentioned.
Click to expand...
Similar example for CPU? I can now get a 4/4 for $120 that used to cost $350. Sure the top end prices increased, but so did the category they are in. A $700 desktop CPU is more comparable to $2000 HEDT CPUs in the past. Prime example would be Intel halving the price of their HEDT line to stay remotely relevant and forced to turn on HT on their lower end. It's not that prices went up so much that you are getting much more now. A 64 core threadripper is under $4k... Not to long ago 12/16 cores were going for this. The segments shifted, but the price came down for normal segments. I assume GPUs will go similar, with high end chips (massive dies that have to be binned) going for a premium, but less money for the same performance each iteration.
 
Steam doesn't poll every user, it's opt-in and it's random IIRC, so I'm not sure how that is a very accurate source. Wanting Nvidia or AMD to dominate is idiotic and I hope the people pushing for it are getting compensated.
 
-Strelok- said:
Steam doesn't poll every user, it's opt-in and it's random IIRC, so I'm not sure how that is a very accurate source. Wanting Nvidia or AMD to dominate is idiotic and I hope the people pushing for it are getting compensated.
Click to expand...

Random sampling is what you want. That's how statistics work.

Some users opting out would only matter if there is some consistent opt out that is higher among some specific group. There hasn't been any suggestion that there is, and it really doesn't make sense that there would be.

I believe Steam Survey is a reasonable proxy for the HW that gamers use.
 
I still see current dated reviews on newegg for the RX 570 which means people still buy it new around $110 - 120
 
-Strelok- said:
Steam doesn't poll every user, it's opt-in and it's random IIRC, so I'm not sure how that is a very accurate source. Wanting Nvidia or AMD to dominate is idiotic and I hope the people pushing for it are getting compensated.
Click to expand...

Good grief not this shit again. Take a class man.

Random sampling of a large population = accuracy.
 
Ready4Dis said:
Similar example for CPU? I can now get a 4/4 for $120 that used to cost $350. Sure the top end prices increased, but so did the category they are in. A $700 desktop CPU is more comparable to $2000 HEDT CPUs in the past. Prime example would be Intel halving the price of their HEDT line to stay remotely relevant and forced to turn on HT on their lower end. It's not that prices went up so much that you are getting much more now. A 64 core threadripper is under $4k... Not to long ago 12/16 cores were going for this. The segments shifted, but the price came down for normal segments. I assume GPUs will go similar, with high end chips (massive dies that have to be binned) going for a premium, but less money for the same performance each iteration.
Click to expand...
Jog my memory...
Which AMD 4 core / four thread CPU did you purchase for $350 prior to Ryzen?
Intel has had those for years but I don't remember AMD with any.
 
Factum said:
It go also go down...depending on the performance/features.
Click to expand...

Yeah all the winds are blowing in the other direction so far though. Hot loud Ampere on a struggling Samsung node vs big stonking RDNA2 at high clocks on a better TSMC process.

Could be all bunk of course. Feature wise Nvidia still gets my money but there’s no doubt a 80 CU RDNA chip will be fast.
 
MangoSeed said:
Yeah all the winds are blowing in the other direction so far though. Hot loud Ampere on a struggling Samsung node vs big stonking RDNA2 at high clocks on a better TSMC process.

Could be all bunk of course. Feature wise Nvidia still gets my money but there’s no doubt a 80 CU RDNA chip will be fast.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure that is bunk. Given that NVidia has been almost exclusively TSMC for a decade or more, and that Big Ampere is on TSMC 7nm (working as a test part and providing extensive learning for chips to follow).

There is no way it makes any sense that consumer Ampere is running on some kind of second rate Samsung process.

People making up theories that NVidia was somehow shut out of TSMC 7nm don't understand, that there would be long term, years in advance reservation of capacity by NVidia. They aren't going to be suddenly caught without capacity at their long term Fab.

Now it is possibly NVidia would voluntarily switch to Samsung for Ampere, but there would have to be a very significant benefit involved.
 
Saabjock said:
Jog my memory...
Which AMD 4 core / four thread CPU did you purchase for $350 prior to Ryzen?
Intel has had those for years but I don't remember AMD with any.
Click to expand...
Sorry, it was in comparison to Intel (and a typo, it should have been $250, I'm horrible typing on my phone). But the equivalent AMD back then wasn't even close in performance which is why 4/4 was still middle/upper end. That was my point though, they changed the landscape on what was low/mid/high end. 4/4 and 4/8 were the highest end parts. Now 16/32 is a desktop CPU. It's not even the same league and competes with HEDT CPUs (and is mostly useful in those types of work loads). Sure you could get an 8 core bulldozer, but it didn't even keep up with 4 core Intel CPUs. Now we have many cores and good performance per core. This is why Intel had to go from 2 core pentiums with no SMT to 2/4, and i3's went from 2/4 to 4/4 which pushed up all the lines. This wasn't out of the goodness of Intel's heart, they would have been content selling 4 core i7's if they didn't have competition. That being said, AMD is still a company trying to make profits, so they aren't going to drop prices super low when they don't have to. Look at AMDs margins vs Nvidia or Intel. I'll give you a hint, AMD is over 10% less profit margin.
"Overall, in the first quarter, AMD reported a gross margin of 46%, compared to Nvidia’s 65% gross margin."
This is from 2020. Intel has steadily been declining thanks to AMD, it is down to around 56%, it was more in recent years, but having to cut their server prices due to epyc, hedt prices due to threadripper and the need to keep CPU prices lower to compete with AMD, it is no longer as high as it was in recent history. Obviously it's not all due to AMD, a lot of it is their own misteps, but prices aren't continuing to rise. 3700x was $50 cheaper than the 1700x and performs a good bit better.
 
Snowdog said:
Now it is possibly NVidia would voluntarily switch to Samsung for Ampere, but there would have to be a very significant benefit involved.
Click to expand...

Well the word is that Nvidia willingly moved to Samsung to put pricing pressure on TSMC. Of course that makes perfect business sense unless it turns out Samsung’s process is shite and nvidia is stuck with them. Either way TSMC doesn’t care because their fabs are maxed out even without nvidia.

Question is whether nvidia was willing to bet their high end on an unproven Samsung process in the first place. Would be a ballsy (or arrogant) move.
 
MangoSeed said:
Well the word is that Nvidia willingly moved to Samsung to put pricing pressure on TSMC. Of course that makes perfect business sense unless it turns out Samsung’s process is shite and nvidia is stuck with them. Either way TSMC doesn’t care because their fabs are maxed out even without nvidia.
Click to expand...

That seems dubious as well. TSMC fabs have never been in more demand. Which makes it the worse time to attempt to pressure them on pricing. Even if that was remotely true, they would shift lower end, higher volume part, as it would have greater economic impact, and less performance impact.

If I were betting it would be on TSMC still being the fab.
 
No comments about AMD rebrands?
That's been their jam for years. At least when they had a winning horse. Beat that sucker till it's dead three or four times.
 
travm said:
No comments about AMD rebrands?
That's been their jam for years. At least when they had a winning horse. Beat that sucker till it's dead three or four times.
Click to expand...
They aren't in a position to do that, they can't launch without a raytracing solution and probably need hdmi 2.1 also at least. They have to compete with the 70&80 series at least. I don't believe we will see launch driver or firmware improvements but would nice. Just thinking on their budget for r&d months gpu side we may be expecting more than they can give unfortunately but they don't get a pass from me this round.
 
travm said:
No comments about AMD rebrands?
That's been their jam for years. At least when they had a winning horse. Beat that sucker till it's dead three or four times.
Click to expand...
For years? When was their last rebrand? Not with Vega, not with rdna.. and it's not like Nvidia doesn't do refresh or rebrands. When they we're putting their focus on CPUs they were doing a good bit of minimal updates on the GPU side and publicly stated they only had enough resources to focus on one and chose their core business. Now that the CPU side is stable, hopefully there will be a bit more focus on their GPU division. I mean, 3-4 years ago I'd have probably agreed the rebranding was getting old, but seems/hopefully we're past that now. It's not like either manufacturer is building complete new architectures every year, they have to be in the market long enough to make their profits.

Ps. If your talking about OEM market, that is a whole nother thing.
 
Saabjock said:
Jog my memory...
Which AMD 4 core / four thread CPU did you purchase for $350 prior to Ryzen?
Intel has had those for years but I don't remember AMD with any.
Click to expand...

While not a quad core my Athalon 3700+ Clawhammer was... around $500 or so.
 
Factum said:
The RX570 went up +0.11% last month according to Steam so you are right.
Click to expand...

I am testing out this B550 board and I used a RX 570 from my pile (3 of them) .. I am amazed at how good it makes World of Tanks look paired with the Ryzen 5 3600 if someone is on a tight budget and wanting a Ryzen build .
 
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like this
California, the land that brought you 400 million P65 labels on everything. Way to save the environment!
 
Snowdog said:
Tribalism is a strong force for most humans. It's the nerd version of rooting for their favorite sports team. Does it make sense that people get into fights/brawls over sports teams? IOW Humans are often kind of irrational.

What to expect:

Closest race in ages. But that won't bring any kind of price war. For most of the range, there will be corresponding cards from both sides with similar price and similar performance. AMD will offer nearly insignificant improvement in price/performance, over the corresponding NVidia options.

So Perf/$ will only improve a bit. A bigger improvement near the high end, mediocre improvement in the midrange, and negligible improvement in the low range.

The only deviation from the essentially parity will be in the highest end.

AMD and NViida will each release a card that outperforms the 2080Ti, and it will be priced similarly ($800+). This will be the RTX 3080, AMD 6900 or similar name. AMD might be ahead here as this will be their top part.

But NVidia will have a gonzo top end card above that, which will make no sense to most people, pushing up the top price once again with it's 3090/Titan or whatever they call it, starting at $1200-$1500... NVidia will "keep the crown" with a card that even less people buy than the previous generation top end, which fewer people bought, than the previous generation.
Click to expand...

This is exactly how things will play out, no doubt. Only adjustment I'd make is 2080 Ti level performance will likely be a bit higher, I'd venture $900.

As for tribalism, I'm tribalist only to myself and other enthusiasts vs outrageous pricing. I'm for the gaming proletariat.
 
Hakaba said:
I remember that ruling... I have issues with non tech individuals setting legal standards related to They don’t fully understand.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it wasn't a filings they settled rather than go to court... But yeah it's a crap shoot.with non tech people, sometimes it's cheaper/easier just to pay and be done. Funny how it only applies to 8 core and not 6 core... Same exact design.
 
harmattan said:
This is exactly how things will play out, no doubt. Only adjustment I'd make is 2080 Ti level performance will likely be a bit higher, I'd venture $900.
Click to expand...

I did write $800+. So the 3080 will be at minimum $800. Though I expect that will be more like $900 for the 3080 FE.
 
Ready4Dis said:
Yeah, it wasn't a filings they settled rather than go to court... But yeah it's a crap shoot.with non tech people, sometimes it's cheaper/easier just to pay and be done. Funny how it only applies to 8 core and not 6 core... Same exact design.
Click to expand...

I see that now.

“Kent Tibbils, vice president of marketing at ASI, a Fremont, Calif.-based distributor and AMD partner, said the settlement, if approved, means the court will not have to define what constitutes a core, which is potentially good news for the semiconductor industry.”

I thought it was the opposite, where the court established the guidelines of what a core is. Glad to see I was wrong.
 
A month later:

Code: 
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650            3.52% +0.36%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 SUPER      0.44% +0.10%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 Ti         0.18% +0.18%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660            1.66% -0.06%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660 SUPER0     1.42% +0.24%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660 Ti         2.91% +0.23%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060            2.88% +0.32%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 SUPER      1.25% +0.16%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070            1.97% +0.08%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER      2.05% +0.21%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080            1.00% +0.01%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER      0.80% +0.09%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti         0.94% +0.03%


21% of DX12 GPU's are Turings
Not bad for a "overpriced GPU" according to some forum posters ;)

RDNA for comaparison:
Code: 
AMD Radeon RX 5700            0.25% +0.01%
AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT         0.88% +0.07%

Other numbers:
Code: 
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti   1.55% -0.02%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 Ti    0.37%  0.00%
AMD Radeon RX 570            1.45%  0.00%
AMD Radeon RX 580            2.15% -0.01%
 
Factum said:
A month later:

Code: 
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650            3.52% +0.36%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 SUPER      0.44% +0.10%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 Ti         0.18% +0.18%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660            1.66% -0.06%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660 SUPER0     1.42% +0.24%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660 Ti         2.91% +0.23%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060            2.88% +0.32%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 SUPER      1.25% +0.16%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070            1.97% +0.08%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER      2.05% +0.21%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080            1.00% +0.01%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER      0.80% +0.09%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti         0.94% +0.03%


21% of DX12 GPU's are Turings
Not bad for a "overpriced GPU" according to some forum posters ;)

RDNA for comaparison:
Code: 
AMD Radeon RX 5700            0.25% +0.01%
AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT         0.88% +0.07%

Other numbers:
Code: 
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti   1.55% -0.02
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 Ti    0.37%  0.00%
AMD Radeon RX 570            1.45%  0.00%
AMD Radeon RX 580            2.15% -0.01%
Click to expand...
Higher adoption rate doesn't mean they weren't overpriced. It just means they were preferred, AMD has issues with oem and enduser confidence. I am in that boat, will end up buying a 3080 for myself and a 3090 for the wife. I initially was going to wait until big navi but the wife said she wanted another strix geforce card. Talked with her about waiting and her point which I agree with was, why wait when we aren't going to trust AMD with the amount the cards cost anyways. She knows very little about computers but she knows what is currently the fastest and more stable video card maker she says. This is a problem time of proving people wrong and money marketing against it AMD is going to need to convince end users to buy their products.
 
Factum said:
A month later:

Code: 
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650            3.52% +0.36%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 SUPER      0.44% +0.10%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 Ti         0.18% +0.18%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660            1.66% -0.06%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660 SUPER0     1.42% +0.24%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660 Ti         2.91% +0.23%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060            2.88% +0.32%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 SUPER      1.25% +0.16%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070            1.97% +0.08%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER      2.05% +0.21%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080            1.00% +0.01%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER      0.80% +0.09%
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti         0.94% +0.03%


21% of DX12 GPU's are Turings
Not bad for a "overpriced GPU" according to some forum posters ;)

RDNA for comaparison:
Code: 
AMD Radeon RX 5700            0.25% +0.01%
AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT         0.88% +0.07%

Other numbers:
Code: 
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti   1.55% -0.02%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 Ti    0.37%  0.00%
AMD Radeon RX 570            1.45%  0.00%
AMD Radeon RX 580            2.15% -0.01%
Click to expand...

Nah just means Nvidia got crushed by their older tech and most users took a hard pass on upgrading due to the price vs performance.
 
Gideon said:
Nah just means Nvidia got crushed by their older tech and most users took a hard pass on upgrading due to the price vs performance.
Click to expand...

What numbers are you looking at, because those numbers paint a decent success for Turning.
 
AMD is going to need another mining craze if they can’t push features like stable gpu recording/streaming.
I was having issues last month helping 1 of the kids I did a 1st pc build record off Radeon software.

Voice enhancements are great bc audio is a pain to tweak if you don’t know what you are doing.
I like the idea of green screen fx, I totally wanna hook up my friends kids to bling their remote learning and class projects.
 
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