What is your definition of an HTPC vs. general use PC with tuner card?

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peTeMelster

Limp Gawd
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I've been having a debate in my other thread about the definition of an HTPC vs. the definition of a PC that has a tuner card/software/tweaked codecs.

Basically, I will be claiming here:
1. A general PC with tuner card/software/codecs/tweaks is an HTPC. An HTPC does NOT have to be dedicated in order to call it a HTPC.
2. A dedicated HTPC is a huge waste of potential and money because you are knowingly limiting the computer's functionality.

Here are my definitions as most others seem to see it, from what I've been able to gather in all my questioning:

1. General use PC: a computer that does basic, general PC tasks such as Word, Excel, internet surfing, light media playback, etc. and nothing else; excels at nothing, typically does not have tuner cards
2. Gaming rig: on top of keeping all the functions of the General Use PC, a gaming rig excels at gaming by adding higher performance hardware such as graphic cards or by adding other gaming performance boosters
3. HTPC: on top of keeping all the functions of the General Use PC, an HTPC excels at media playback via tweaked codecs and filters; has a tuner card/PVR software to watch TV and record shows; has an organized and easy way to access and playback media files; typically may have media center accessories such as remote controls and wireless keyboard/mouse; required to be dedicated to media playback only (this is not something I agree with, but has become clear is a part of the requirement of an HTPC to many ppl)
4. General use PC with tuner card/software/codecs: exactly the same as HTPC, except it will not be limited to do media stuff only; it can also do general PC tasks and possibly acceptable gaming

The main issues revolve around 3 and 4. What are the issues brought up between the differences between 3 and 4?

The debate is more than definitions though. Here are the topics at hand:
1. Must an HTPC be limited to media playback only (aka it may not do Word, Excel, etc.) in order to be called an HTPC? In other words, does this computer need to be dedicated in order to be called an HTPC, despite the fact that it can do general PC tasks? If so, why? The distinction between dedicated and non-dedicated seems purely definitional/intentional rather than functional.

2. What is the difference between a dedicated HPTC and a general PC that happens to have a tuner card, software, codec tweaks, remote control, etc. (basically it has all the HTPC functions) but is NOT limited by the user to dedicated media playback? Is it simply the intention to limit the HTPC that allows one to call it that? If so, that sounds like a stubborn attachment to a definition, while ignoring the possible things you can do with your machine - seems silly.

3. Why would you limit your HTPC to only do media tasks when it has the ability to do so much more, such as general PC tasks?

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To me, it seems the problem is this:
If I build a computer that does all the functions of an HTPC, but I allow it to also do Word, Excel, etc., I still call it an HTPC. People seem to be heated over this. I call it an HTPC because it performs all the functions of an HTPC, but I am unwilling to limit it to only HTPC functions. I want it to do other tasks as well.

It seems to me that to limit a computer that has full HTPC functionality to only HTPC tasks is like limiting a computer with SLI Nvidia 8800 GTX Ultras and the fastest CPU available to only surfing the web, typing up essays on Word, and other basic tasks, but not allow it to game. This comp is clearly more like a gaming rig, yet you let it only do general PC tasks purely because you do not want it to game despite its capability to do so and do so very well. All because you want it call it a general use PC rather than a gaming rig. That's a stubborn attachment to definition, and you are blind sighted to the actual capabilities of your machine.

The same situation is here with the HTPC. You build yourself a powerful computer that can do both HTPC and general PC tasks, but allow it only to do HTPC tasks because you want to be able to call it a dedicated machine. It has the ability to do more and do it very well (to do general tasks ON TOP OF HTPC tasks), but you just don't feel like letting it do so because, oh no, that would mean this computer is no longer dedicated to media only, so therefore you can't call it a HTPC anymore, but rather it is now a general PC with tuner card/etc.

That position seems like a stubborn attachment to a definition, rather than using your computer to its full potential, yet other say I am missing the point of an HTPC completely.

So, I'm interested...what is the point of an HTPC? Why can't I build a non-dedicated computer that does HTPC tasks equally well (because it has the same hardware and codecs and software) as a dedicated HTPC, then go on to call my non-dedicated computer an HTPC? After all, it performs all the functions of an HTPC equally well, the only difference is, I also use Word and Excel and stuff on it.

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Here are the arguments I've seen throw at me:
1. An HTPC needs a special HTPC case that matches the living room electronics better than a normal tower computer case.
Rebuttal: This is purely cosmetic. It has no bearing on the actual functioning of the computer. In fact, HTPC cases are cramped, small, have low airflow, and are generally hotter - all disadvantages over a tower desktop computer. Since when was cosmetics a defining trait for any term? It might be a typical trait, but never a defining trait. Defining traits are always functions. A tree is not a tree because it has the shape of what we've come to know as "tree," it's not a tree because it has leaves and a trunk. It is a tree because it has roots that go into the ground, it photosynthesizes, it might bear fruit, and all the other traits that describe how it functions.

2. An HTPC is generally quiet/silent.
Rebuttal: So? My general desktop computer is quiet/silent too. I strive to make all my computer quiet. In fact, it might be argued that a general computer needs to be MORE quiet than an HTPC to not be noticed. A general computer usually sits on a desk that is a few feet away from the user, so the noise is easier to hear, while an HTPC sits in the living room several feet away on the opposite end of the room, so it can afford to be a little louder before its noise becomes intrusive. Also, the ambient noise in the living room is typically louder than the ambient noise in your office/computer room/personal room.

Your possible counter-rebuttal: General workstations don't need to be so quiet. They can afford some noise, but an HTPC cannot because in the middle of a quiet love scene in the movie, you don't want the mood to be ruined by the noise of the computer.

My rebuttal to that: Fine, that's your opinion, and it's understandable. But then, I submit to you the point I made earlier. Silence is not a defining trait of an HTPC. A loud HTPC vs. a quiet HTPC has no bearing on how well the HTPC can play back the media files and perform other HTPC tasks. They are both still HTPCs. So yes, while a quiet HTPC makes for a nicer media experience, it is not a requisite trait that can be said to be included in the definition of a HTPC.

3. An HTPC generally has large hard drive capacity.
Rebuttal: My general PC has large capacity too - 500gb, planning to upgrade to 1 TB. Nowadays, most modern general PCs have pretty large capacities with the cheap prices of hard drives. Good quality 500gbs HDDs can be had for around $100-120 new, shipped, after taxes. But again, this is not a defining trait, just something nice to have. Hard drive space has no effect on the ability to play back files (so long as you do have the space to hold the files you want to play back and the space for things like your media player and operating system and such).

4. An HTPC must be dedicated to media playback only. This makes it easier to access and find your media files, since it's all in one central location. You won't get disoriented trying to do media playback because there are no other files like Word files to get you confused.
Rebuttal: What? Are you serious? Just because there are other file types on your computer, you get disoriented that you can't find your media files easily enough? Then not only are you not computer literate, you don't even understand basic computer functionality.

However, if this is a problem for you, then this could be a valid reason to have a purely dedicated HTPC. But I suggest you stay away from your normal computer as well, since clearly, you don't know how to do even basic things on it such as finding where your media files are and not getting them mixed up with your Word files.

5. An HTPC is usually set in the living room, so you can't use it as a general use PC because there is less privacy in the living room than your normal computer workspace.
Rebuttal: None. Okay, if this really bothers you, then this is the only legitimate reason I see to building a purely dedicated HTPC. For me, this is not a problem though, so I don't worry about this.

6. An HTPC is considered that (an HTPC) precisely because it excels at media playback.
Rebuttal: No, it doesn't excel. It is identical in media playback performance to any computer that has the same hardware, software, codecs, settings. If I build a general PC with xyz parts, then I build an HTPC with those same xyz parts, I am going to get identical performance. Of course, there is manufacturing variance, but you can't control that. For the purposes of this discussion, they are identical in performance if they are the same part. Or if not, then the HTPC actually performs worse because it is stuck in a low-airflow, small case with worse ventilation than a tower computer case. That means your CPU is running hotter, your HDD is running hotter, everything is hotter, and thus more prone to deterioration, failure, and lesser performance.

7. An HTPC serves as one central location for all your media files.
Rebuttal: My general PC serves as one central location for all my media files too. They are all on my hard drive. Not only that, but my general PC serves as one central location for all my computer files.

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Now I'm open to new ideas, and if so many people are against what I believe constitutes an HTPC, then I realize the high probability that I am missing something. However, no one has taken the time to show me what am I missing if I am indeed missing some point. They jsut throw their hands up in the air in exasperation because apparently I don't get it.

I've given a pretty logical and strong argument for my case. If you feel differently, I'd like to hear your thoughts and for you to explain it to me logically too. Thanks!
 
Although this seems to have been beaten to death in the last thread, I'll answer here as well.

I understand what you're saying, but an HTPC is a Home Theater PC... once you start going past the function of it being just a Home Theater PC, such as adding Office, etc. then you're getting more into it just being a desktop with the ability to record tv, etc. The whole point of an HTPC is to view multimedia (tv, movies, pictures, etc). That's it. It's not supposed to do office documents, etc.

Is there something "wrong" with installing Office on an otherwise "normal" HTPC? No... it's your computer... do whatever you want with it. But the term HTPC generally refers to a computer that will sit at/in/on an entertainment center and provide.... well... entertainment (to be viewed on a TV)... not Office documents. You're looking to just add TV recording functionality to a computer. It's unlikely that you'll be using Media Center or a remote control, etc.
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So, you are agreeing that the main difference between an HTPC and a computer with TV capabilities is that you simply limit the HTPC to media only, while you don't limit the general computer to anything.

I can see how an HTPC serves as a media center. In fact, I will be using for that quite a lot, so things like a remote control are not out of the question. But I will also want it to do things like Word.

Is MCE an operating system? Or is it a just software that you install, such as a media player? If MCE is an OS, then I can begin to see what distinguishes an HTPC from a general PC with TV capabilities. But even then, that distinction is small (to me), and I will continue calling a general PC with TV capabilities an HTPC unless there is some other major difference I missed.

Thanks!

EDIT: So apparently MCE is an interface that makes it easier to access media. Cool. I guess it is MCE or similar interfaces that make an HTPC an HTPC, not so much because it is dedicated to media only. However, to me, as long as the computer can do all the HTPC tasks I want, the interface is no big deal to me. I know how to figure it out without the easier MCE interface.
 
An HTPC is just a specialized computer. Media Center is software that windows runs that is *for* viewing media. Other HTPC's may run software that actually controls other functions, such as dimming the lights and even allowing the content you're viewing to follow you around the house from TV to TV.

As I said, it really just sounds like you want a general purpose computer with the ability to record TV and watch some media. HTPC's have a specific purpose, with specific software... they're *made* to be HTPC's...


Basically, it sounds like what you're doing is taking a NASCAR racecar and putting in windows, air conditioning and a radio... just because you can and because you won't loose too much in modifying the car. Problem is, you're still trying to call it a NASCAR racecar. At some point, it stops becoming a NASCAR racecar and becomes just a fast car. By adding in Office and making it more of a general purpose machine, you're crossing that line... it's not really an HTPC anymore, but instead a computer that can record TV.
 
To me a HTPC is a normal PC put into a box which looks nice in the living room, has a remote and is connected to your HDTV.
Parts are chosen to give good enough performance for the tasks at hand.
ie remote control, capture card with ability to record and play 2 different channels...
If the PC will be used for gaming (and why not, its connected to your HDTV and maybe hifi!) then more powerful hardware is needed.

The difference to me is that more media centric software and hardware will be used, it will look pretty / match the decor and will have a remote control.
Its still a PC so can run office etc. This changes nothing :)
 
Nenu said:
Its still a PC so can run office etc. This changes nothing :)
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Except for the fact that it's a PITA to "try" and edit a word doc on your TV from sitting on the couch. The whole point of an HTPC is to make it excessable by anyone from a remote. An HTPC is simply a PC setup to mimic your average CE device (TiVo, DVD player, etc) but offering so much more then any CE device out there.

If it was possible too would you try and edit your word docs on a 360? No. Exactly my point.
 
CrimandEvil said:
Except for the fact that it's a PITA to "try" and edit a word doc on your TV from sitting on the couch. The whole point of an HTPC is to make it excessable by anyone from a remote. An HTPC is simply a PC setup to mimic your average CE device (TiVo, DVD player, etc) but offering so much more then any CE device out there.

If it was possible too would you try and edit your word docs on a 360? No. Exactly my point.
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lol get a bigger telly :D
 
While you could add other applications to the system, the HTPC is exactly what it abbreviation stands for, Home Theater Personal Computer. The whole premise is that the system is connected to a TV or projector for multimedia purposes. This requires specialized hardware and software (tuner cards and PVR/multimedia playback software).

Also remember, that with every software package you install on a system, you are adding another layer of possible conflicts. One of the key points of a HTPC is to use hardware and software that are known to work well together, and keep it error free so you have maximum uptime for the system. Just imagine watching the Superbowl and having the system BSOD on you because of some little software program you installed earlier in the day :eek:

While a general purpose system could be used for these tasks, how well would your neighbor or extended family members be able to sit down and use it? The HTPC is supposed to be designed as a replacement for a cable or satellite DVR (as well as other multimedia abilities). If someone has to close Word and open up the software to watch a movie, the system isn't really doing the job correctly.

Windows MCE and other media programs (SageTV, BeyondTV, MythTV) that are designed and marketed to the HTPC crowd are designed with the intent of "you never see the desktop". If a person walks into the room, the idea is that they shouldn't be able to tell that you are running Windows or Linux and they can pick up the remote and be able to navigate the system with minimal learning curve.

With all that said, if you want to call your system a HTPC, hey, go for it. Just remember that there is a crowd of people out there that have put a lot of time and money into customizing and tweaking their systems for this single purpose and unless it is dedicated to multimedia playback, it won't be considered an HTPC.
 
I agree HTPC are computers used primarily/if not exclusively for media playback functionality.
My HTPC sits on a special stand behind my cabinet and you only see the remote senor living next to the tv and thats it.

My Plan is to take my wifes old laptop (amd Turion) with dedicated graphics and slip it into a dvd player case (after i strip it from the latop housing.) add a Creative USB optical sound card and use that.. :) could be fun trying to work out a number of issues, ie dvd drive, usb ports, power and display connections...

ah well

Easy

PS i will have my media on a server, connected via gigabit cable... :)

PSS just a thought but you could use the same argument about a server..... grin
 
I believe we have, point blank, said numerous times what an HTPC is. However, you don't like the definition and thus say "I don't get it". The only place this thread can go, honestly, is no where. Even though you say you can be convinced...your previous posts and length of them indicate otherwise. I've had an HTPC for nearly 8 years in one config or another....but I guess I don't know what i'm talking about. To each their own. Good luck, God speed.
 
Well I think I'm understanding most of the traits you have said an HTPC has, but I am still calling my system an HTPC despite the fact that it's not dedicated. I can spend lots of money and time tweaking this system to playback media too, but I will also be using it for other purposes. This whole dedicated vs. non-dedicated argument doesn't convince me. Why doesn't it convince me? Because, say...you have a watch. A watch is supposed to tell time. That's its function. But wait, there are watches that tell time plus have a calculator or even a TV. Yet, you still call it a watch, not a TV that happens to have watch capabilities, not a calculator that happens to have watch capabilities. These dual function watches are still called watches not because they don't do anything else but watch functions (tell time), but because telling time is it's primary function. Primary function doesn't mean dedicated, sole function.

So in that sense, I consider an HTPC an HTPC because it has HTPC capabilities, not because it is dedicated solely to that task. Media playback is its main function, but nowhere does it say that MUST BE its ONLY function in order to be considered an HTPC.

There is only ONE THING I AM NOT AGREEING ON. And that is the idea that an HTPC must be dedicated in order for it to be called an HTPC.

Here is the point I want to hammer in: a machine that you call or label XYZ isn't considered XYZ machine because you use it ONLY to perform XYZ functions. It is considered XYZ because it CAN do XYZ functions. It is considered XYZ because the execution of XYZ functions is typically its primary function, but not necessarily it's only function (although it can be).

Put in actual terms. A machine that you call an HTPC isn't considered an HTPC because you use it ONLY to perform HTPC media playback functions. It is considered an HTPC because it CAN do media playback (HTPC functions). It is considered an HTPC because the execution of media playback is typically the HTPC's primary function, but not necessarily it's only function (and in fact, media playback is not the only function an HTPC can do).

What makes more sense to me is an HTPC has an interface such as MCE, which general use PCs don't use. This is the main distinction I see that makes sense to me. It makes the main purpose of an HTPC (media playback) easier via a simpler, neater interface (such as MCE). This makes an HTPC easier to be considered to be executing media playback functions as its primary function. Yet, I don't see what having such an interface has to do with some unwritten requirement that HTPCs are only allowed to perform HTPC functions. If I use normal Windows XP as my interface and use players like Media Player Classic to play my videos, and that is what I primarily do with this computer, then it's an HTPC by my view.

Sure, maybe editing Word files and such on an HTPC is more difficult and even inconvenient, but so what? A calculator function on a watch is pretty damn inconvenient too and hard to use compared to a normal-sized calculator. Yet, if I want the functionality of a calculator and don't want to buy a whole other device/machine for it, and if my watch happens to have that calculator function, I'm going to use it. Same thing applies to the HTPC. Sure, it's main purpose might be media playback, but if it can edit Word files too, and I want to edit Word files without using another computer for that, then I'm going to edit Word files on my HTPC. Just because I edit Word files on this HTPC doesn't suddenly make it no longer qualify to be considered an HTPC. That's my point/argument/opinion. Obviously, most of you don't agree, but then...I don't agree with you guys, since you still haven't offered a convincing enough logical argument.

I simply think the idea of a HTPC is too limited, and accordingly, if a system has HTPC functionality, I will argue it can be considered an HTPC, it can function as an HTPC (and remember, things are called something by their function, not what you choose to do or not do with it). Sure, this makes the interface more complicated, but it's still doing what the term "home theater" implies - playback of media files. If my "home theater" happens to be able to do other things I want to do, I just don't see why not.

The NASCAR explanation doesn't make sense to me either. A NASCAR race car is made to race, and that's its dedicated function. It doesn't have the ability of air-conditioning, radio, windows, etc. Whereas, an HTPC inherently has the ability to edit Word files and such. Sure, you can mod the racecar to have those extra functions, but then it becomes, like you say, a fast car with amenities, rather than a NASCAR race car. I don't think the analogy works in the case of HTPCs because HTPCs necessarily are able to do general PC tasks by design. Whether you want it to or not, you can't change the fact that it can.

My point is simply, it's virtually impossible to build an HTPC that can't do general PC tasks. You can only build an HTPC that you CHOOSE NOT TO do general PC tasks on. In the case of the race car, a race car does not necessarily/inherently have air conditioning, windows, radio, etc. By typical bare-bone design, a race car doesn't have those. It is POSSIBLE to build a race car without those luxuries. But it is IMPOSSIBLE to build an HTPC without the luxuries/abilities of doing general PC tasks. By typical bare-bone design, an HTPC will always still be able to do general PC tasks. That's my case.

Seeing how it's impossible to rid the HTPC of general PC abilities, then why not use them if you want to? If you don't want to, that's fine...you have your own reasons for not wanting to, which I understand now - reasons like it won't have the neater interface of MCE, higher learning curve to access media if you're also using it as general computer, etc. But I still will not agree that if you choose to do general PC tasks on it, then it's no longer an HTPC.

Again, a machine isn't something because you use it for only that one particular function; it's something because that's what it is/what it has the ability to do. If I have a cell phone, but I decide I want to use it as a weapon (throwing it at people and hitting them in the head) and nothing else, then this phone is functioning as a weapon (while still not giving up its identity as a cell phone).

Yet, according to your logic, then this device is a weapon, not a cell phone because it's dedicated to only being a weapon. That's just silly to me. It's still a cell phone because of what it can do - it can make calls. If you choose not to make calls and have it do something else and only that like be a weapon, then fine, it can also be that something else...it can be a weapon, but it's still a cell phone. It doesn't stop being a cell phone simply because you choose not to make calls with it. Not using the phone to make calls doesn't stop it from being a cell phone. Furthermore, if you do decide to use it as a cell phone to make calls, that doesn't stop it from being a weapon. It still has the ability to be a weapon. So you can't say it's not a weapon.

Similarly, never using my HTPC to edit Word files doesn't make it an HTPC. It's an HTPC because it can function like an HTPC. There is a reason it has the "PC" at the end of HTPC. Because its a personal computer! At its core, it's a computer! And what do computers do? They do general computer tasks! You can choose not to do those general tasks, but that limiting decision isn't what makes that computer an HTPC. It's an HTPC because it does HTPC functions as its primary function.

The reason this thread is not going anywhere is because you have not said what an HTPC is in any kind of logical way. You have tried to, but every point you have brought up, I have offered logical counter-arguments. You are free to respond to those counter-arguments, but until you can logically explain the flaws in my counter-arguments, of course "I don't get it", of course I don't see what you mean an HTPC is.

It's not I am being stupid and stubborn. You guys simply haven't defended your position, and I have deconstructed all the points you guys have made. If you can deconstruct my position, I'm all ears. I'm not standing by my position because of pride or stubbornness. I'm standing by it because it's what is most sound/logical/sensical so far.
 
I view an HTPC as a computer that was designed to fit with other home theater componants and used in liu of a DVD player, in some cases a PVR, Video / audio file storage. Its software is designed and configured to be very easy to use pleasant to look at.

A general use computer is something that can do a little of everything and none of it very well. A general use computer could render animations at an HD resolution, edit large video files, play games or what have you, but how fast can it do it? How are the FPS? If I was desperate I could use my HTPC to help render something, but the time it takes it to render one frame vs my main computer is just laughable. And by comparasin I dont like using my main computer to watch anything, its not as comfortable or as enjoyable.

I wouldnt call an HTPC a dumbed down computer, its just specialized in one area. They can do so much, but I would much rather sit here in my comfortable chair at a desk typing properly than sitting on my couch with a small rarely used keyboard trying to read the odd texts some websites use on my TV.

If my wife can come home, turn everything on, start the new Bleach epp, then put in a DVD, switch to play the Wii, and not have to call me for any help thats something. She's not stupid but she does not enjoy hooking up or anything about the home theater unelss it works and is painless.

The only General use PC I have is my laptop. it takes a long time to boot up, and I use it at school where I want to do several things from a little editing, watching something, somel ight gaming etc. But its very slow and needs to be cleaned up a lot.

(I am still new to actually having an HTPC, so if I am wrong in anything feel free to correct me)
 
Ripskin, so you are under the idea that an HTPC excels at media playback, yea?

Well, if your idea of excelling is being able to have an nice, easy to use interface such as MCE, then yes, I agree with you. It does excel in that way. But An HTPC with the MCE interface doesn't excel (in terms of better image quality, more FPS, etc.) at being a media center over a general use PC without the MCE interface (unless the MCE software can further tweak image quality - but no one has mentioned that to me yet, so I'm guessing image quality is dependent on your codecs, filters, gfx card, screen).

Your arguments about how fast can a general computer do things? That doesn't quite hold up. In my original post, I gave the definition of a general use PC, which was identical to the definition you just gave. I agree with that definition. But that wasn't the issue. It's an issue between an HTPC vs. a general use PC with full HTPC capabilities. The main and actually, the only idea I have problem is is that people are saying an HTPC must be dedicated in order to be considered an HTPC, which I don't agree with.

The only distinction I will accept is if you want to say an HTPC must have a MCE (or similar) interface in order to be considered an HTPC, and that is what separates an HTPC from a general use PC with full HTPC functionality/quality. That is a distinction that makes logical sense. But, it doesn't seem like that is what people are arguing. Rather, it seems people are generally arguing that an HTPC must be dedicated in order to be an HTPC. They are saying, if it's not dedicated, then it's not an HTPC.

But I am not buying the "dedicated" argument. I've outlined the step-by-step to how I arrived at the conclusion that an HTPC does not need to be dedicated in order to be considered an HTPC above.

Your points about sitting at a desk for general PC use aren't relevant here either. Yes, it's more comfortable to do general PC things at a desk rather than on your TV, sitting on your couch, with some wireless keyboards or whatever. But...how does that relate? An HTPC's primary function is media playback, which it accomplishes. But to accomplish that, it doesn't need to give up the usage of all its other possible abilities like using Word. Sure, using Word on an HTPC is more inconvenient than a normal PC that you use at your desk, but that's the the point in contention. If one day, I decide to use Word, however uncomfortable it might be, on my HTPC, these guys are saying bam! it's not an HTPC anymore. I say B.S. It's still an HTPC, but I just decided to do some other stuff on it too.

Unless you guys want to change your position to, an HTPC is an HTPC because it features a neat, easy to use interface such as MCE, which a general use PC with HTPC capabilities doesn't have, then I'm going to keep calling my system an HTPC, not a general use PC with TV tuner/PVR software/etc.

So far, that has been the only logical point I can see, but...like I said, it doesn't seem to be the point that most of you are trying to hit home for me.
 
peTeMelster said:
Sure, maybe editing Word files and such on an HTPC is more difficult and even inconvenient, but so what?
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You're missing a core fact about HTPC's in general. They aren't just computers that happen to be hooked up to a telly.

They're effectively servers. You don't go installing ten tons of shit on a server that needs as perfect uptime as possible. You'll find yourself running back and forth getting Myth/Sage/Whatever running all the time for family members that way. Just like you don't go installing ten tons of shit willy nilly on servers in the business world.

You're also forgetting the Ten Foot Interface design feature. Myth, etc, are designed to be used from ten feet or so away. Word is designed to be used from less than half a meter away. Unless you're going to sit in front of your telly on the floor, Word on a HTPC isn't happening for that simple reason. Depending on how expensive your telly is (SD or HD), the resolution may also drive you banana's.

peTeMelster said:
Just because I edit Word files on this HTPC doesn't suddenly make it no longer qualify to be considered an HTPC. That's my point/argument/opinion. Obviously, most of you don't agree, but then...I don't agree with you guys, since you still haven't offered a convincing enough logical argument.
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Using Word on a HTPC is like using a tractor to take your groceries home. It can do the job, it has four wheels, an engine, and can carry stuff, but that isn't what it is designed for. Ten Foot Interface and server uptime.

peTeMelster said:
I don't think the analogy works in the case of HTPCs because HTPCs necessarily are able to do general PC tasks by design. Whether you want it to or not, you can't change the fact that it can.
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No, HTPC's are not designed to do general PC crap. It's a byproduct of the fact that most of them are engineered on a standardised platform that just happens to also run our other programs.

peTeMelster said:
But it is IMPOSSIBLE to build an HTPC without the luxuries/abilities of doing general PC tasks. By typical bare-bone design, an HTPC will always still be able to do general PC tasks. That's my case.
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As counter evidence, I offer my HTPC. It has no word processing software on it. No WYSIWYG stuff, only vi. (MythTV, Linux.) It has nothing except linux software that does TV and video stuff. If you quit out of the myth frontend, there will be nothing in the menu's to do general PC stuff. It plain out isn't designed for that.

peTeMelster said:
The reason this thread is not going anywhere is because you have not said what an HTPC is in any kind of logical way.
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To me, a HTPC is something that records telly, and lets me watch it (either during recording or later), with the ability to skip forward, backward, and pause. It can also play video, music, and DVDs. There is probably more to it, can't think of it at the moment. But I'd define it as something that can perform a set of tasks.

By the way, I bow to your typing ability. Wall Of Text +10.
 
Dude, like I said in my post, call it what you want. Just don't expect eveyone else to bend to your opinion. What you call an HTPC, some will consider a general PC and there is nothing you can do about it. We can't convince you otherwise, but you shouldn't think that you can convince us to your viewpoint either ;)

If the system runs a media center app full time (MCE, SageTV, BeyondTV, MythTV, etc. etc.), and is connected to your TV/projector as the primary video device, then it is close enough in my opinion. If I walked into your living area and saw the Windows desktop or someone typing up a Word document, my immediate reaction is that it is a PC. If you have to launch Media Player Classic, Windows Media Player, or some other app by using the mouse or keyboard (again from the desktop), I would consider it a general PC.

The whole dedicated thing stems from the software that is generally used by HTPCs. For example, most Media Center apps don't have any word processing capabilities built in becuase they aren't generally used on those types of systems. You have to add something like MS Office to be able to create spreadsheets for example. If you look at all the mods for SageTV, MythTV, etc. I doubt you will find one to integrate MS Word or Excel into the application (which are generally designed to look pretty and be easily navigated by a remote).

Take SageTV for example (just because that is what I use). When running, it runs in full screen mode. To even get to the desktop, I have to go into the options to take it out of full screen mode, then minimize it. However, it has everything you need for a multimedia system right there in the app. Select Play DVD to watch a DVD, view my pictures one at a time or as a slideshow, record or watch tv with the press of a remote button.

When it's all said and done, who cares if someone says it isn't or is an HTPC. That is like me getting a new phone and showing it to my friend saying "hey this is cool, it has a camera on it" and them yawning and saying "So?". As I said before, if you want to call it an HTPC, go right ahead, just don't expect everyone to.
 
Yeah why do you care if you can call your PC a HTPC.
It sounds like you are hung up on other peoples instant impressions of your kit.

Seriously, who really cares!?
 
Nenu said:
Yeah why do you care if you can call your PC a HTPC.
It sounds like you are hung up on other peoples instant impressions of your kit.

Seriously, who really cares!?
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Blame me, I was the one that first said it. Ugh, sorry guys.
Me from his other thread said:
So, wait. This sounds like a general work system with a tuner card more then an HTPC. What exactly are you trying to do with this system?
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His first thread

Honestly, I don't see what his problem is. He's building a regular PC for another family member and he wants to include some tuners and software to record shows while he's not there, I don't see where/why he's insisting on calling this system an HTPC other then to be "hip" by having such a system. Or something like that.

Either way, I still don't see why he (evidently) thinks theres something wrong with having a regular system (even if it does happen to have a few tuners in it).
 
What makes a HTPC in my eyes? Three things.

1 - Where is the machine physically located? They are either headless located in a closet somewhere or nearby a HDTV/Projector. They are never sitting on someone's desk with a monitor hooked up to them running AIM, etc.

2 - What software will I interact with when I turn on its display device? Take mine for example. When you turn on my 90" projector and the accompanying surround receiver, etc, the only two software programs you will see and interact with are Meedio and BeyondTV. Thats all. You will never see the desktop.

3 - The most important one I think, what does the CPU spend the majority of its cycles doing? Again with mine, that entails recording from 4 different TV sources at once, recompressing raw video, tagging commercial sections, and archiving the video on my dedicated file server as well as being the central device responsible for every function of my "TV" or "Movie" experience. Without the HTPC, my projector and surround are useless.

To me thats what classifies a HTPC. In the same way every general use PC can actually be a server, is a Dell sitting on someone's desktop running games considered a server? Probably not, seeing as its CPU does not spend the majority of its time dedicated to a specific function.
 
CrimandEvil said:
Honestly, I don't see what his problem is. He's building a regular PC for another family member and he wants to include some tuners and software to record shows while he's not there, I don't see where/why he's insisting on calling this system an HTPC other then to be "hip" by having such a system. Or something like that.
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I agree. It sounds like he *might* hook it up to a TV in the future, but is unlikely to do so. It also sounds like he'll be using a keyboard and mouse and will be running multimedia via Media Player / etc since he doesn't even know what Media Center *is* to use it.

OP:
Yes, a watch may do other things... but those other things are designed with it being a watch. For instance, the HTPC I'll be putting together will be recording TV and storing media... things that a normal HTPC will do. However, it will be a backend server for this kind of thing (you'll need other computers to access the media, it won't even have a display, keyboard or mouse to use). However, it *is* a server... so it will have other server functions, such as running DNS, general SAMBA services, etc. I won't be installing OpenOffice, games, etc... it won't be used and *shouldn't* be used for those kinds of things.

As I previously stated, the point of an HTPC is to view multimedia in a home theater type setting. Generally everything is geared toward sitting on your sofa, across the room, and using a remote to navigate menus to watch tv, movies, etc. When you have to start using a keyboard and mouse to navigate file trees, open / close programs, extending it's functionality with Office, etc... you really just have a computer hooked up to a TV with a tuner attached. Sorry man, but no matter how much you call it an HTPC... you really just have a PC with a tuner in it.
 
Can we twist this a bit...what would people call a "home theatre"? Right now a lot of people call a home theatre "big TV + external speakers + chairs". To me, this is not a theatre. Honestly it drives me up a fraking wall. A theatre is a dedicated room with a LARGE screen that covers at least 50% of a wall surface area to watch media. It does nothing else. It doesn't have a bar in it (this could be in an attached room), it doesn't support kids toys...it should be designed to sit on your tush and watch media...PERIOD.

Even my theatre is at the very "low end" of what I would call a HT because it has doors to other rooms, the speakers are not stealth, and the floor is "white" (previous owner). However, the only thing my HT does is play media. I don't even play games on it anymore (however, game consoles are classified as consumer electronics and therefore valid). While it is fun and cool to do it, that does not amount to any real percentage of the bulb time.

http://hostimage.ra-specht.com/ht_chairs_back.jpg

Now back to the HTPC. The HTPC is mean to replace, condense, and improve single function consumer electronics (CE) related to viewing media. Thus...where does word processing and video editing tie into CE's that relate to viewing media. The answer is...they don't.

Like my SageTV PC. I don't call it a HTPC....I call it a media server PC. It condenses and stores media related content from family pictures to TV shows, to video torrents, file compression, iTunes storage, to ripped DVD's to a multitude of other things. By your definition I should call this a HTPC...but it isn't. It doesn't connect to a TV/PJ and it doesn't have a 10' interface. It just does media related tasks.
 
The problem is that the whole "home theater" terminology has been dumbed down for the general public. Just look at the "home theater in a box" speaker kits. If you were setting up a room as you describe, there is no way you would used one of those cheap kits, or at least I hope you wouldn't ;)

I agree, a true Home Theater would be a room that was specifically and solely designed for watching movies/video. A huge screen, projector, comfy chairs, no windows letting light in. Basically the same sort of environment you get going to the movie theater, just on a smaller scale.

In reality, how many people can actually afford to dedicate that much space for that specific purpose though? So, the term "home theater" has changed to relate to basically being an area that is primarily (though not necessarily 100 percent dedicated) used for watching media.

Personally, when I buy a new house, my plan is to get one with a game room that I can convert into a "media room". Not a "home theater" mind you ;) Basically a room that I can set up a projector, screen, and client HTPC system. However, the room will also most likely have a play area for my daughter, and I'm in the planning phase of building a MAME cabinet with dual screens and controls for some old-fashion arcade fun :D

Here is my question for the group though. So, a true home theater room is built specifically for watching media? If you add something else to the room, say a play area for a toddler, it isn't really considered a home theater anymore, right? So, what happens when you add a computer to the kitchen that is used to check the Internet in the morning while drinking your coffee? Is the room no longer considered a Kitchen at that point? What if you have a play area for a toddler in the corner of the formal dining room? Is that no longer considered a dining room anymore, even if it still has a table and chairs for you to eat at?
 
I'm not a big fan of putting together a powerpoint presentation at 480p on a 55" screen.

Makes my eyes hurt.

Plus, I'd also need a mouse and keyboard that would work more than 4' from the TV. I would also have to shut down or minimize my TV app (SageTV) in order to run something else. This might cause the wife to become unpleasant if I tell her I want to send an email to my Mom right in the middle of Grey's Anatomy or Lost.

My HTPC only uses progressive scan component out and most things don't work well (i.e. can't pull down menus) and lookd horrible at that resolution. My HTPC is dedicated. It's job is to run the TV, record shows and run video related stuff (comskip, memcoder) 24/7. It's not powerful enough to game and it's often too busy to do other stuff, that's why I have other computers .
 
peTeMelster said:
I've been having a debate in my other thread about the definition of an HTPC vs. the definition of a PC that has a tuner card/software/tweaked codecs....... Thanks!
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I agree with peTeMelster.

A computer is a computer.

But I see what people mean when they say they have a dedicated HTPC. It uses a specialized user interface to make things easier for the family to operate. And some interfaces, like Vista MCE, helps with HD somehow (better codecs?).

I plan to fold on my HTPC. I fold for the [H]orde. So my box will run at full speed 24/7, even when not working as a DVR.

But this whole argument / debate is kinda silly. Who cares what you do with your HTPC? I don't, and neither does your family and friends. Call it what you like.





 
I have what i concider a HTPC. it might be a little unique though

it does both general and HTPC duties. i run media center 2005, the case is a old beige tower. it sits in my HT rack with my receiver, Sub amp, dvd player and Wii. it connects via s-video to my tv and via optical AND component audio to the receiver. i also run a second video card that powers a 19" lcd on my desk on the side of the room which has a wireless mouse and keyboard. i have a IR zapper that came with my hauppage 150 tv tuner that i have programmed to be controlled with my receivers universal remote. i can run media center on the tv and watch recorded shows (sans commercials) and surf the web on the lcd on my desk. my computer does everything

edit:
i forgot to mention that i live in a batchelor apt. so my living room is my computer room is my bedroom etc. this necessitates a quite computer, and i only have space for one box so i cant have a general use and a htpc there just isn't room.
 
peTeMelster said:
Ripskin, so you are under the idea that an HTPC excels at media playback, yea?

Well, if your idea of excelling is being able to have an nice, easy to use interface such as MCE, then yes, I agree with you. It does excel in that way. But An HTPC with the MCE interface doesn't excel (in terms of better image quality, more FPS, etc.) at being a media center over a general use PC without the MCE interface (unless the MCE software can further tweak image quality - but no one has mentioned that to me yet, so I'm guessing image quality is dependent on your codecs, filters, gfx card, screen).

Your arguments about how fast can a general computer do things? That doesn't quite hold up. In my original post, I gave the definition of a general use PC, which was identical to the definition you just gave. I agree with that definition. But that wasn't the issue. It's an issue between an HTPC vs. a general use PC with full HTPC capabilities. The main and actually, the only idea I have problem is is that people are saying an HTPC must be dedicated in order to be considered an HTPC, which I don't agree with.

The only distinction I will accept is if you want to say an HTPC must have a MCE (or similar) interface in order to be considered an HTPC, and that is what separates an HTPC from a general use PC with full HTPC functionality/quality. That is a distinction that makes logical sense. But, it doesn't seem like that is what people are arguing. Rather, it seems people are generally arguing that an HTPC must be dedicated in order to be an HTPC. They are saying, if it's not dedicated, then it's not an HTPC.

But I am not buying the "dedicated" argument. I've outlined the step-by-step to how I arrived at the conclusion that an HTPC does not need to be dedicated in order to be considered an HTPC above.

Your points about sitting at a desk for general PC use aren't relevant here either. Yes, it's more comfortable to do general PC things at a desk rather than on your TV, sitting on your couch, with some wireless keyboards or whatever. But...how does that relate? An HTPC's primary function is media playback, which it accomplishes. But to accomplish that, it doesn't need to give up the usage of all its other possible abilities like using Word. Sure, using Word on an HTPC is more inconvenient than a normal PC that you use at your desk, but that's the the point in contention. If one day, I decide to use Word, however uncomfortable it might be, on my HTPC, these guys are saying bam! it's not an HTPC anymore. I say B.S. It's still an HTPC, but I just decided to do some other stuff on it too.

So far, that has been the only logical point I can see, but...like I said, it doesn't seem to be the point that most of you are trying to hit home for me.
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Okay, MCE doesnt mean its an HTPC I have never even used it, and wont until I get the time to install it. The grunt of my opinion as to what an HTPC is;

Its a computer that sits in the home theater. simple.

Why call a computer a desktop? Because it generally sits on or near a desk. Laptop? it sits in your lap.... all three can do the same tasks...so why buy or own all three... Laptop is portable, desktop is more comfortable for typing and playing games editing (things you might need a desk to help with) and an HTPC lives in a home theater set up so one dont have to mess with hooking / unhooking it and reconfiguring resolutions etc.

That is all an HTPC is to me, my whole other post was just trying to explain reasons for why you might not want to have a general use computer doing everything. I am the first to admit I am not the smartest or most articulate person here but yeesh.

If you want to take your desktop to school to take notes on go for it, might get some odd looks from people with their easy to cary and mobile laptops. When people come over and see a tower sitting next to your tv they might go wow, that looks weird, but who cares, its your set up, word documents and games might not be comfortable or easy out there but whatever makes you happy is all that you need to worry about.

HTPC is just a name, why does it matter what everyone thinks its called? You tell your friends and family its your HTPC or Media Center and they wont care. People use their PS3's or Xbox's for the same type of thing. My Wii can go online, but it looks like crap and isnt very functional. Everyone has a different opinion about everything so you might get a general consensus but you wont get a definate answer.
 
This thread had a point at some time, right? </sarcasm>

Call it your l33th4xor box for all we care. Arguing over a name is retarded.
 
HTPC is the intent of the computer.


A desktop or PC is something that is an alaround machine for everyday use or occasional use, a Workstation is a machine that is dedicated to the process of business and used in business on a daily basis, a server is a machine thats sole goal is to serve content and information, a console is a machine which sole purpose is to serve as an entertainment gaming unit at your tv, a htpc is a machine which purpose or intent is to serve media for the convenience at your sofa.

If you took an htpc and used it as a general computer in gaming, then IMO it's just a desktop or a personal computer made for many diffrent functions. To me it's about the intent for which the machine is focused for.
 
Obviously many of you guys are quite stubborn, and seeing how none of you have logically debunked my arguments, I have no reason to change my opinion. That said, some of you seem to be implying that I am pushing my opinion onto others. Never said I was. I was just trying to have a civil discussion, but obviously, you guys can't handle that, so whatever. I'm calling my setup an HTPC, and yours a dumbed down computer. You call your setups HTPCs and mine a general PC with tuner card. To each his own.
 
us stubborn? how many threads have you created on this?
I'm so happy for you having a HTPC lol.
 
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