What exactly is the deal with GPUs

Bassman99

Limp Gawd
Joined
Feb 3, 2021
Messages
143
Agreed. Yet every time I suggest some form of "control", or punishment for this cheating the market, I'm accused of being some insane communist. I don't see what's wrong with castigating those cheating the system. In the absence of such a punishment, send the GPUs to physical stores where bots can't cheat consumers out of buying. I'll happily stand in line on BB a whole day if I actually have a chance of getting a GPU.

I've only managed to see the "add to cart" button one morning, failed miserably at getting one. Still, I'm hopeful. Perhaps this Friday? Fingers crossed.
Im disabled, but Ill still gladly stand (or sit) in line over-night to get a card or 2 and be glad at this point for the opportunity.
The only people who dont want control over the situation are the opportunists raping the system IMO
 

sabrewolf732

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Dec 6, 2004
Messages
4,633
Does this actually factor in electricity costs and the fact that you will need to mine that card for 2 months (or whatever) straight?

at .1 per kwh you're looking at around 3 to 4 cents per hour in elec. cost, so under $1 a day. That's $9 in profit.
 

Sir Beregond

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
202
I'm guessing no good news to share yet, eh
May not be big time scalpers buying tons of cards at a time online, but people are buying these cards locally at Micro Center and those same cards are showing up an hour later on Facebook marketplace or Craigslist at scalper prices. So don't think physical stores are stopping the scalpers because they aren't.
 

GoldenTiger

Fully [H]
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Messages
20,374
Agreed. Yet every time I suggest some form of "control", or punishment for this cheating the market, I'm accused of being some insane communist. I don't see what's wrong with castigating those cheating the system. In the absence of such a punishment, send the GPUs to physical stores where bots can't cheat consumers out of buying. I'll happily stand in line on BB a whole day if I actually have a chance of getting a GPU.

I've only managed to see the "add to cart" button one morning, failed miserably at getting one. Still, I'm hopeful. Perhaps this Friday? Fingers crossed.
No one is cheating. Buying more efficiently isn't cheating. As far as your other issue, price controls for a luxury good are why you keep getting called that.
 

euskalzabe

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 9, 2009
Messages
1,412
No one is cheating. Buying more efficiently isn't cheating. As far as your other issue, price controls for a luxury good are why you keep getting called that.
Some people share your opinion. Many do not. Stop pretending like yours is the only possible correct choice to run society. Jeez people. Intransigence seems to be the rule of the forum these days. I'm not calling those who agree with you capitalistic poisoned human beings. We are not going to agree on this issue, so give it a rest already, FFS.
 

GoldenTiger

Fully [H]
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Messages
20,374
Some people share your opinion. Many do not. Stop pretending like yours is the only possible correct choice to run society. Jeez people. Intransigence seems to be the rule of the forum these days. I'm not calling those who agree with you capitalistic poisoned human beings. Give it a rest already, FFS.
In life, there sometimes ARE wrong answers.

P.S. Using a bot isn't cheating. It's working smarter, not harder.
 

euskalzabe

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 9, 2009
Messages
1,412
In life, there sometimes ARE wrong answers.

P.S. Using a bot isn't cheating. It's working smarter, not harder.
In life, more often than not, there are different answers, where neither is correct or incorrect. There are very few things that are inherently right or wrong, instead they are defined as such by societal systems that change as culture evolves through time.

The market isn't created for bots, it's created for humans. It has rules, and laws, defined by and designed for human behavior. When you alter that, the market will be abused, until the definitions and designs are updated to reflect the new user base. Abuse is not being smart. It's abuse.
 

GoldenTiger

Fully [H]
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Messages
20,374
In life, more often than not, there are different answers, where neither is correct or incorrect. There are very few things that are inherently right or wrong, instead they are defined as such by societal systems that change as culture evolves through time.

The market isn't created for bots, it's created for humans. It has rules, and laws, defined by and designed for human behavior. When you alter that, the market will be abused, until the definitions and designs are updated to reflect the new user base. Abuse is not being smart. It's abuse.
Someone always argues for the wrong things. Doesn't magically make them right.

Bots are made by and run by humans. What is your argument again? It isn't abuse to work smarter.
 

euskalzabe

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 9, 2009
Messages
1,412
Someone always argues for the wrong things. Doesn't magically make them right.

Bots are made by and run by humans. What is your argument again? It isn't abuse to work smarter.
It's pretty clear you're intentionally missing the point. Right or wrong are relative, not absolute values (it used to be "right" to stone an adulterous person to death, now you'd go to jail if you attempted such a thing). Bots are made by humans, correct, but the market isn't made for bots, it has rules designed for humans, therefore, if bots exploit the weaknesses in rules not designed for them = not smart, but abuse of the system. I leave it at that. No point in keeping this exchange going for no good reason.
 

GoldenTiger

Fully [H]
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Messages
20,374
It's pretty clear you're intentionally missing the point. Right or wrong are relative, not absolute values (it used to be "right" to stone an adulterous person to death, now you'd go to jail if you attempted such a thing). Bots are made by humans, correct, but the market isn't made for bots, it has rules designed for humans, therefore, if bots exploit the weaknesses in rules not designed for them = not smart, but abuse of the system. I leave it at that. No point in keeping this exchange going for no good reason.
Technically you're correct, in booksmart land, but in real life you're not :), as far as there not being absolute right and wrong. Virtually everyone thinks murder is wrong worldwide, but technically that's an opinion.

I agree to disagree regarding bots.
 

LukeTbk

Gawd
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
1,017
Technically you're correct, in booksmart land, but in real life you're not :), as far as there not being absolute right and wrong. Virtually everyone thinks murder is wrong worldwide, but technically that's an opinion.

I agree to disagree regarding bots.
That a bit misleading as murder ( the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice) include the notion of being wrong in the word.

Homicide being wrong become more complex, many form of homicide are considered gray or ok worldwide (when they are they stop being called murder) soldier and cop in duty, euthanasia in some culture, abortion in some culture, executioner of a death penalty in some culture. When in some culture killing even of an insect is wrong, it vary quite a bit.

Has for bot being smart or abusive, that 2 different question, something can be smart and abusing of a system (most technic that abuse of a system are smart), using bot to circumvent anything that has some form, any form of antibot going do seem to be an obvious case of abusing of a system.
 

Andrew_Carr

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
1,785
In life, more often than not, there are different answers, where neither is correct or incorrect. There are very few things that are inherently right or wrong, instead they are defined as such by societal systems that change as culture evolves through time.

The market isn't created for bots, it's created for humans. It has rules, and laws, defined by and designed for human behavior. When you alter that, the market will be abused, until the definitions and designs are updated to reflect the new user base. Abuse is not being smart. It's abuse.
So if neither answer is correct or incorrect, why is the opinion that price controls are stupid and cause shortages incorrect, but your opinion that price controls are good and will magically solve shortages the correct opinion?
 

harmattan

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
4,688
I would not be so sure about that since Nvidia would not incur the cost of managing, dealing with the public, per card basis, handling issues more per customer at a much finer detail.

Reading through the typical dry government documents which usually end up begging for more answers to the obvious questions and would be argue endlessly in courts by lawyers both thinking their right:
My guesswork, no more, no less:

  • Anyways Nvidia can put a ceiling on the max price on their brand of cards, Ampere 3090 let say. Totally legal for a number of reasons. Nvidia so far is allowing Ampere cards to be made and sold way beyond their MSRP value, over $2000.
  • Nvidia has and probably still bin chips, even if mostly so minute in differences that it does not make much difference. In other words one 3090 chips can be binned and sold at different cost to the AIBs, nothing fixed as in all 3090 GPUs have to be sold at this one price by Nvidia.
  • Then there is price differences in how many one can buy, lots.
  • Anyways Nvidia can sell so called low binned chips for Manufacturers to make MSRP like cards and sell the so called high end (even if not that much) at what ever price they can get. It probably doesn't matter if Nvidia has over 50% high binned parts selling way above the low binned parts and much more available to purchase.
  • Are these AIBs actually making a killing on the way over MSRP cards or are forced to due to the higher cost of the chips available to them? When all of the AIBs have prices way above MSRP? If they worked together to make the higher prices that would be illegal (see above dry document), now if forced to do so, due to costs to them and no way to make a reasonable profit, most likely, then you see the current pricing of cards in general.
These are all good points, almost certainly at play here. Foremost, however, nVidia is playing the (semi) long game. In short, nV is allowing AIBs and resellers (although they have little direct control here) to sell way above MSRP to allow price acceptance to inflate. They can then justify increasing their upstream prices. Mark my words, within the next few months there will be news that nV has increased chip prices across the board to AIBs, as well as through direct sales.

Also, MSRP doesn't really exist in this environment, and nV well knows it. MSAP (Manufacturer Suggested Advertising Price) is much more apt.
 
  • Like
Reactions: x509
like this

euskalzabe

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 9, 2009
Messages
1,412
So if neither answer is correct or incorrect, why is the opinion that price controls are stupid and cause shortages incorrect, but your opinion that price controls are good and will magically solve shortages the correct opinion?
Actually, your post perfectly illustrates what I've been saying. Never, not a single time, did I ever claim that having some form of light control via a sanctioned queuing system for consumers to be able to buy GPUs would solve shortages. Not one single time, those are assumptions made by some of y'all who interpret things in posts, instead of reading what the posts say. I'll repeat the core of my argument: shortages will last however long they last. But instead of having scalpers buy everything, and then sell them at outrageously speculative prices, you'd have all gamers sign up to an Nvidia (or whoever's) queue. Then, scalpers surely would be able to sign up too, but they wouldn't scoop up every single GPU within 3 seconds of going on sale. Gamers would be on the same queue, and so you'd be guaranteed at some point you'd get your GPU. Would it be fast? Certainly not. Would it be faster than waiting months and months until stock picks back up? Certainly, yes. Because everyone, consumers and scalpers and miners, would be on the same queue, so it'd be a turn based system. Nvidia would sell all their GPUs virtually instantly, as they do now. But more people would get their GPUs, and there'd be less incentive for anyone to pay scalper prices - which contributes to the problem - because you'd have the guarantee that sooner or later you'd get that GPU, instead of having to go on a futile hunt against the bots.

That is all I'm arguing for. It doesn't make it right, it doesn't make other positions wrong. All my suggestion does is guarantee everyone will get a GPU through a fair system that maintains closer to MSRP by avoiding scalper extreme prices - I'm sure you'd still pay some form of AIB extra, but you could avoid the 3rd party store extra price tag if we could order directly from Nvidia.

I'd much rather know that I'll get a new GPU in, say, September, at MSRP - and go game peacefully with my 1060, knowing my GPU will eventually come - than the current keep-hunting-or-give-up and who knows when you'll even get a GPU, if at all, at MSRP. Market controls, not always, but certainly for momentary periods, have their purpose, and benefits, with the only draw back often being time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: x509
like this

wandplus

n00b
Joined
Jan 14, 2020
Messages
48
I just had a strange experience at b&hphotovideo. I saw an MSI GTX 1050 Ti showing "in stock". Out of curiosity, I clicked to add to cart then it showed "discontinued". lol
 

euskalzabe

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 9, 2009
Messages
1,412
Oh look, Nvidia will limit the hash rate of the new 3060 by 50% via a driver as a disincentive to miners. Seems like Nvidia agrees that someone needs to do something about the current situation in which GPUs meant for gaming are not being sold to gamers. I guess even Nvidia recognizes that the free market is not necessarily good for their business, in the long run, if their main customers are held hostage through market abuse. This won't solve the scalper issue, but it will at least dampen the mining issue for gamers - while giving them perfectly capable hardware to do their mining, without encroaching on the gaming industry. What a revelation...

https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-...rtx-3060-driver-will-limit-mining-performance

1613659845261.png


The release of minin specific CMP cards, however, doesn't seem like it'll help anything. Using chips for CMP lines still takes them away from the Geforce lines, and the hashrate for these mining cards makes no sense VS power consumed, when you'd get a better deal through a 3060 Ti, 3070, 3080 or 3090. From Anandtech:

1613661154617.png


Perhaps the CMP cards will be way cheaper than Geforce cards? Otherwise, this performance will entice no miner.
 
Last edited:

Dark12

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
1,733
Oh look, Nvidia will limit the hash rate of the new 3060 by 50% via a driver as a disincentive to miners. Seems like Nvidia agrees that someone needs to do something about the current situation in which GPUs meant for gaming are not being sold to gamers. I guess even Nvidia recognizes that the free market is not necessarily good for their business, in the long run, if their main customers are held hostage through market abuse. This won't solve the scalper issue, but it will at least dampen the mining issue for gamers - while giving them perfectly capable hardware to do their mining, without encroaching on the gaming industry. What a revelation...

https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-...rtx-3060-driver-will-limit-mining-performance

View attachment 330645

The release of minin specific CMP cards, however, doesn't seem like it'll help anything. Using chips for CMP lines still takes them away from the Geforce lines, and the hashrate for these mining cards makes no sense VS power consumed, when you'd get a better deal through a 3060 Ti, 3070, 3080 or 3090. From Anandtech:

View attachment 330649

Perhaps the CMP cards will be way cheaper than Geforce cards? Otherwise, this performance will entice no miner.
They might be using crappy chips for these or older tech completely so hopefully their production of these won't effect the supply of gamer GPUs. Also I am sure they can be tweaked to reduce wattage like most GPUs. usually they are run at ~60% power limits.
 

Andrew_Carr

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
1,785
Actually, your post perfectly illustrates what I've been saying. Never, not a single time, did I ever claim that having some form of light control via a sanctioned queuing system for consumers to be able to buy GPUs would solve shortages. Not one single time, those are assumptions made by some of y'all who interpret things in posts, instead of reading what the posts say. I'll repeat the core of my argument: shortages will last however long they last. But instead of having scalpers buy everything, and then sell them at outrageously speculative prices, you'd have all gamers sign up to an Nvidia (or whoever's) queue. Then, scalpers surely would be able to sign up too, but they wouldn't scoop up every single GPU within 3 seconds of going on sale. Gamers would be on the same queue, and so you'd be guaranteed at some point you'd get your GPU. Would it be fast? Certainly not. Would it be faster than waiting months and months until stock picks back up? Certainly, yes. Because everyone, consumers and scalpers and miners, would be on the same queue, so it'd be a turn based system. Nvidia would sell all their GPUs virtually instantly, as they do now. But more people would get their GPUs, and there'd be less incentive for anyone to pay scalper prices - which contributes to the problem - because you'd have the guarantee that sooner or later you'd get that GPU, instead of having to go on a futile hunt against the bots.

That is all I'm arguing for. It doesn't make it right, it doesn't make other positions wrong. All my suggestion does is guarantee everyone will get a GPU through a fair system that maintains closer to MSRP by avoiding scalper extreme prices - I'm sure you'd still pay some form of AIB extra, but you could avoid the 3rd party store extra price tag if we could order directly from Nvidia.

I'd much rather know that I'll get a new GPU in, say, September, at MSRP - and go game peacefully with my 1060, knowing my GPU will eventually come - than the current keep-hunting-or-give-up and who knows when you'll even get a GPU, if at all, at MSRP. Market controls, not always, but certainly for momentary periods, have their purpose, and benefits, with the only draw back often being time.
And you're completely missing my point. Gamers that want to play the latest game at higher FPS are less important than someone who wants to use a card for work or for mining cryptocurrency. Those people are willing to pay more per card than gamers so to the market they're more important. It's a group of hobbyists competing vs people earning money with these cards. (There's also plenty of gamers on ancient hardware that might really need an upgrade versus people that are making minor upgrades from a last-gen card). So what you're proposing is to lump all those people into one pool and control who gets the cards by creating a queue because you're upset about some middlemen scalpers practicing arbitrage and taking advantage of pricing issues. All those scalpers are doing is making sure cards get to those most in need (most $$) and making money by correcting the market inefficiencies.

The reason why people think your ideas are equivalent to communism is because you're asking for centralized planning of the market. And it's even more ridiculous because we're not talking about giving everyone houses or cars or something important (centralized planning is still a disaster when applied there, as has been proven throughout history), we're talking about making giving video cards to gamers because they aren't willing to pay market rates.

Anyway, your idea is still pie in the sky idealism. Those people who have the financial incentive to get more cards are still going to use their money to get what they want. Instead of using bots and buying everything online, they can just create fake identities and sign-up for your queue system. How much harder is it to take a database of people (Experian leak, OPM Leak, publicly available voter rolls, etc) and sign-up millions of "real" people for your queue? Now they're guaranteed to be first in line when that website opens, they'll fill it up with fake people and you'll have zero chance to get what you want until their millions of orders are filled. So what now? nVidia and AMD ask the government to step in and help them verify via driver's license number of SSN that the people queuing are real people? Well that's pretty easy to game too. There's people who'll sell you that info as well, or it's already been leaked multiple times for millions of people's.
 

Andrew_Carr

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
1,785
Oh look, Nvidia will limit the hash rate of the new 3060 by 50% via a driver as a disincentive to miners. Seems like Nvidia agrees that someone needs to do something about the current situation in which GPUs meant for gaming are not being sold to gamers. I guess even Nvidia recognizes that the free market is not necessarily good for their business, in the long run, if their main customers are held hostage through market abuse. This won't solve the scalper issue, but it will at least dampen the mining issue for gamers - while giving them perfectly capable hardware to do their mining, without encroaching on the gaming industry. What a revelation...

https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-...rtx-3060-driver-will-limit-mining-performance

The release of minin specific CMP cards, however, doesn't seem like it'll help anything. Using chips for CMP lines still takes them away from the Geforce lines, and the hashrate for these mining cards makes no sense VS power consumed, when you'd get a better deal through a 3060 Ti, 3070, 3080 or 3090. From Anandtech:

Perhaps the CMP cards will be way cheaper than Geforce cards? Otherwise, this performance will entice no miner.

Yeah, this doesn't seem to put the cat back in the bag. Offering a better solution for miners (cheaper to manufacture, more power efficient, easier to run multiple GPUs, etc.) seems like a solid plan, but it looks like they've totally missed the mark here. The 90HX doesn't seem to offer anything better than the RTX 3080 unless it's priced lower, and unless this solves the supply issue somehow why wouldn't miners just spend their money on RTX cards once these CMP cards are sold out? (assuming they're better for crypto mining). I guess it helps prevent RTX cards from being dumped onto the used GPU market later on, allowing nVidia to keep their next-gen pricing high.
 

Aegir

Gawd
Joined
Apr 15, 2020
Messages
562
And you're completely missing my point. Gamers that want to play the latest game at higher FPS are less important than someone who wants to use a card for work or for mining cryptocurrency. Those people are willing to pay more per card than gamers so to the market they're more important. It's a group of hobbyists competing vs people earning money with these cards. (There's also plenty of gamers on ancient hardware that might really need an upgrade versus people that are making minor upgrades from a last-gen card). So what you're proposing is to lump all those people into one pool and control who gets the cards by creating a queue because you're upset about some middlemen scalpers practicing arbitrage and taking advantage of pricing issues. All those scalpers are doing is making sure cards get to those most in need (most $$) and making money by correcting the market inefficiencies.

The reason why people think your ideas are equivalent to communism is because you're asking for centralized planning of the market. And it's even more ridiculous because we're not talking about giving everyone houses or cars or something important (centralized planning is still a disaster when applied there, as has been proven throughout history), we're talking about making giving video cards to gamers because they aren't willing to pay market rates.

Anyway, your idea is still pie in the sky idealism. Those people who have the financial incentive to get more cards are still going to use their money to get what they want. Instead of using bots and buying everything online, they can just create fake identities and sign-up for your queue system. How much harder is it to take a database of people (Experian leak, OPM Leak, publicly available voter rolls, etc) and sign-up millions of "real" people for your queue? Now they're guaranteed to be first in line when that website opens, they'll fill it up with fake people and you'll have zero chance to get what you want until their millions of orders are filled. So what now? nVidia and AMD ask the government to step in and help them verify via driver's license number of SSN that the people queuing are real people? Well that's pretty easy to game too. There's people who'll sell you that info as well, or it's already been leaked multiple times for millions of people's.

Yeah, you're basically right.

If a person finds that they're being called a communist, it doesn't mean they're actually a communist. But communism is the sort of viral idea that we already have an immune response to.
When people detect the proteins and building blocks of communism, they automatically begin to attack that idea, even if it is not in fact communism. It is instead another viral idea.

It's just another entry in the field of memetics.

Memetics is not a new technology, but it's certainly undergoing plenty of diabolical mutations, considering the power of the internet.
What's inside any person's head at any moment might as well be nothing but what was put there.


And as far as making money versus gaming on hardware goes, yeah. I'm surprised gamers are so self-righteous, considering what a waste of time gaming is compared to making money, storing and processing information, and developing new solutions to real problems. I've heard "Skyrim" was the cause of many bad grades in college too, huh?

I don't really pity gamers, although I myself am one. I think gaming has its place, but pity? I don't pity the damned.
 

Sir Beregond

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
202
Oh look, Nvidia will limit the hash rate of the new 3060 by 50% via a driver as a disincentive to miners. Seems like Nvidia agrees that someone needs to do something about the current situation in which GPUs meant for gaming are not being sold to gamers. I guess even Nvidia recognizes that the free market is not necessarily good for their business, in the long run, if their main customers are held hostage through market abuse. This won't solve the scalper issue, but it will at least dampen the mining issue for gamers - while giving them perfectly capable hardware to do their mining, without encroaching on the gaming industry. What a revelation...

https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-...rtx-3060-driver-will-limit-mining-performance

View attachment 330645

The release of minin specific CMP cards, however, doesn't seem like it'll help anything. Using chips for CMP lines still takes them away from the Geforce lines, and the hashrate for these mining cards makes no sense VS power consumed, when you'd get a better deal through a 3060 Ti, 3070, 3080 or 3090. From Anandtech:

View attachment 330649

Perhaps the CMP cards will be way cheaper than Geforce cards? Otherwise, this performance will entice no miner.
I don't see this solving anything. Chips diverted away from GeForce cards further lessening supply and presumably the miners will still buy up 3080's as they'll just run whatever drivers they run now instead of new gimped drivers. As for 50% driver gimping, that won't matter if Bitcoin keep going up.

I don't think there is a short term fix for this except for crypto crashing. Long term, the world need more fab space and it needs to be distributed to other areas of the world besides just Taiwan for easing supply chains.
 

Aegir

Gawd
Joined
Apr 15, 2020
Messages
562
I don't see this solving anything. Chips diverted away from GeForce cards further lessening supply and presumably the miners will still buy up 3080's as they'll just run whatever drivers they run now instead of new gimped drivers. As for 50% driver gimping, that won't matter if Bitcoin keep going up.

I don't think there is a short term fix for this except for crypto crashing. Long term, the world need more fab space and it needs to be distributed to other areas of the world besides just Taiwan for easing supply chains.

Yeah, but good luck opening a fabrication facility.
Three hurdles:

Government clearance.
Funding.
Knowledge.

Even if you somehow get the OK to build a plant somewhere, how will you afford to hire people to build it?
Where do you even find people who would be able to do it?
Furthermore, even if you did build it, who's to say you won't end up like Intel, and be too stupid to be able to advance as fast as other plants?

Even if you could build stuff that makes low-grade data centers happy, it doesn't mean you can produce enthusiast tier stuff.
Being able to copy the second-best of Taiwan is useful, sure, but if you're not innovating, then you're stagnating.
And if you're not making the BEST hardware, then you'll be less than AMD, and not even be able to compete with GeForce or Radeon.

Sure, it should still be done. Investors and the government can quite easily create the funding and clearance for it.

But the last hurdle? Heh.

Where will you find the KNOWLEDGE to build these advanced electronics?
It cannot be taught. It is the cutting-edge and does not yet exist.
You cannot find anyone with experience because it is not done. There are not enough people with this knowledge.

Look to this forum. Shouldn't you expect more ~experts~ to be enthusiastic about the hardware that they produce?
Or does the CEO of Intel just not care to join us? The engineers of Intel aren't here, or elsewhere either?

Is it that they don't care? Or is their number too low to be counted?

Face it. We're the best of the best already in this field, and our numbers are very small. And all we can do is assemble the premade pieces and call that enthusiasm.
Processor fabrication isn't taught and it isn't known.

No one can just BUILD gloriously advanced technology.
You need to be able to comprehend it from scratch, and that just didn't happen.

No one seems to know how to get this stuff built, so even if you had the money, the clearance, and a big thumbs up from Uncle Sam, you really think we'll be able to go anywhere?
Ha. We're screwed and doomed, and the people who would normally be the most enthusiastic probably don't have the "experience" and "degrees" necessary.
This kind of cutting edge thinking isn't found in universities.

Advanced civilization will die not with a bang, not with a whimper, but in a long line to buy foreign made graphics cards.
 
Last edited:

Sir Beregond

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
202
Yeah, but good luck opening a fabrication facility.
Three hurdles:

Government clearance.
Funding.
Knowledge.

Even if you somehow get the OK to build a plant somewhere, how will you afford to hire people to build it?
Where do you even find people who would be able to do it?
Furthermore, even if you did build it, who's to say you won't end up like Intel, and be too stupid to be to advance as fast as other plants?

Even if you could build stuff that makes low-grade data centers happy, it doesn't mean you can produce enthusiast tier stuff.
Being able to copy the second-best of Taiwan is useful, sure, but if you're not innovating, then you're stagnating.
And if you're not making the BEST hardware, then you'll be less than AMD, and not even be able to compete with GeForce or Radeon.

Sure, it should still be done. Investors and the government can quite easily create the funding and clearance for it.

But the last hurdle? Heh.

Where will you find the KNOWLEDGE to build these advanced electronics?
It cannot be taught. It is the cutting-edge and does not yet exist.
You cannot find anyone with experience because it is not done. There are not enough people with this knowledge.

Look to this forum. Shouldn't you expect more ~experts~ to be enthusiastic about the hardware that they produce?
Or does the CEO of Intel just not care to join us? The engineers of Intel aren't here, or elsewhere either?

Is it that they don't care? Or is their number too low to be counted?

Face it. We're the best of the best already in this field, and our numbers are very small. And all we can do is assemble the premade pieces and call that enthusiasm.
Processor fabrication isn't taught and it isn't known.

No one can just BUILD gloriously advanced technology.
You need to be able to comprehend it from scratch, and that just didn't happen.

No one seems to know how to get this stuff built, so even if you had the money, the clearance, and a big thumbs up from Uncle Sam, you really think we'll be able to go anywhere?
Ha. We're screwed and doomed, and the people who would normally be the most enthusiastic probably don't have the "experience" and "degrees" necessary.
This kind of cutting edge thinking isn't found in universities.

Advanced civilization will die not with a bang, not with a whimper, but in a long line to buy foreign made graphics cards.
When I said long-term, I meant long-term. None of that would happen fast and like you said has lots of hurdles.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aegir
like this

Aegir

Gawd
Joined
Apr 15, 2020
Messages
562
When I said long-term, I meant long-term. None of that would happen fast and like you said has lots of hurdles.

Yeah, true success relies on thinking not just long-term, but ultra-long-term.
Decades are not enough to truly develop an advanced civilization that will stand the test of time.

Even now, 21st century science, technology, and knowledge hardly impress me.

We must go further. Join me, Sir Beregond, on our glorious quest into the FUTURE!
 

Andrew_Carr

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
1,785
I don't see this solving anything. Chips diverted away from GeForce cards further lessening supply and presumably the miners will still buy up 3080's as they'll just run whatever drivers they run now instead of new gimped drivers. As for 50% driver gimping, that won't matter if Bitcoin keep going up.

I don't think there is a short term fix for this except for crypto crashing. Long term, the world need more fab space and it needs to be distributed to other areas of the world besides just Taiwan for easing supply chains.
Maybe it'll help by creating a use for lesser binned chips, who knows. Doesn't seem like it's a great deal for the consumers right now though.
 

euskalzabe

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 9, 2009
Messages
1,412
They might be using crappy chips for these or older tech completely so hopefully their production of these won't effect the supply of gamer GPUs.
Considering the power consumption Anandtech showed, I'd figure these are 12nm or 14nm chips, not 7nm.
Gamers that want to play the latest game at higher FPS are less important than someone who wants to use a card for work or for mining cryptocurrency.
This may be the case for Nvidia as a whole company. This is not the case for Nvidia's gaming division of hardware. And they just disagreed with your statement quite publicly, by creating a mining-specific lineup (as expected), and nerfing (very unexpected) their most successful and widespread gaming product tier (xx60 series) to discourage miners from getting it. If you don't see there the proof that Nvidia realizes the harm their gaming division will face if mingers get all the GPUs instead of gamers, I don't think you'll ever see it anywhere. They are actively making their produce WORSE for the type of consumer they don't want buying this product.
Anyway, your idea is still pie in the sky idealism
Absolutely true, we agree on that. Sue me for shooting for a better, more equitable society. And I get it, we're talking about GPUs, but the idea holds true for any good in society. We'd all be that much better if we shared more among us - and the data supports it: look at the socialist democracies (note: this has nothing to do with full blown socialism, or communism) around the world where life expectancy and general satisfaction measures blow us out of the water here in the USA. I'm not saying this. Global statistics are - here's just one recent example. "More for me, fuck the rest" is a much worse society than "everybody gets enough".
Yeah, this doesn't seem to put the cat back in the bag.
I don't see this solving anything.
%100 agreed. I fear miners by now have enough clout, money and power to make their own driver, or crack the limitation out of the driver. Still, this is at least one obstacle for mining. The more things like this Nvidia does, the better for gamers. Let miners buy cards made for mining. From the power specs given, these don't seem to be 7nm cards, so it shouldn't encroach on new 7nm GPU fabrication. That said, if I were a miner, I'd avoid these cards and just go with a 3070 or higher. Then again, the intended effect for Nvidia is the same: hopefully, the 3060 will be more available to gamers, not miners.
 
Last edited:

euskalzabe

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 9, 2009
Messages
1,412
More good new: the mining-blocking software might not actually be in the drivers, but in some software in the card (firmware perhaps?).

https://videocardz.com/newz/zotac-g...-mining-test-shows-reduced-hashrate-in-action

1613673426056.png


If it's actually the firmware - which seems likely - it'll be a lot harder for any miner to attempt to install their own BIOS, because these need to be digitally signed. Not impossible, but way harder to achieve their goal. The guy in the video forced a 3070 driver install basically, and the 3060 still halved the hash rate.

And LOL. This idiot just showed the world the SN of the card. It'll take Nvidia a whole 60 seconds to figure out what store sold miners cards a week early. Good luck getting more Geforce card, dumbasses.

1613673836361.png
 
Last edited:

x509

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
2,393
Actually, your post perfectly illustrates what I've been saying. Never, not a single time, did I ever claim that having some form of light control via a sanctioned queuing system for consumers to be able to buy GPUs would solve shortages. Not one single time, those are assumptions made by some of y'all who interpret things in posts, instead of reading what the posts say. I'll repeat the core of my argument: shortages will last however long they last. But instead of having scalpers buy everything, and then sell them at outrageously speculative prices, you'd have all gamers sign up to an Nvidia (or whoever's) queue. Then, scalpers surely would be able to sign up too, but they wouldn't scoop up every single GPU within 3 seconds of going on sale. Gamers would be on the same queue, and so you'd be guaranteed at some point you'd get your GPU. Would it be fast? Certainly not. Would it be faster than waiting months and months until stock picks back up? Certainly, yes. Because everyone, consumers and scalpers and miners, would be on the same queue, so it'd be a turn based system. Nvidia would sell all their GPUs virtually instantly, as they do now. But more people would get their GPUs, and there'd be less incentive for anyone to pay scalper prices - which contributes to the problem - because you'd have the guarantee that sooner or later you'd get that GPU, instead of having to go on a futile hunt against the bots.

That is all I'm arguing for. It doesn't make it right, it doesn't make other positions wrong. All my suggestion does is guarantee everyone will get a GPU through a fair system that maintains closer to MSRP by avoiding scalper extreme prices - I'm sure you'd still pay some form of AIB extra, but you could avoid the 3rd party store extra price tag if we could order directly from Nvidia.

I'd much rather know that I'll get a new GPU in, say, September, at MSRP - and go game peacefully with my 1060, knowing my GPU will eventually come - than the current keep-hunting-or-give-up and who knows when you'll even get a GPU, if at all, at MSRP. Market controls, not always, but certainly for momentary periods, have their purpose, and benefits, with the only draw back often being time.
What he said.
 

euskalzabe

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 9, 2009
Messages
1,412
The theory of evolution will disagree with you.
And it will disagree in the most horrifically painful way possible.
It's only a matter of time.
Am I actually talking to children? I must be. These cannot be functioning adults who are posting responses. I can't believe I have to point this out, but here we go:

Nature = evolution.
Society ≠ evolution.

Society = development.
Evolution ≠ development.
 

Aegir

Gawd
Joined
Apr 15, 2020
Messages
562
Am I actually talking to children? I must be. These cannot be functioning adults who are posting responses. I can't believe I have to point this out, but here we go:

Nature = evolution.
Society ≠ evolution.

Society = development.
Evolution ≠ development.

Nothing exists outside nature.

Society = Nature.
 

Sir Beregond

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
202
More good new: the mining-blocking software might not actually be in the drivers, but in some software in the card (firmware perhaps?).

https://videocardz.com/newz/zotac-g...-mining-test-shows-reduced-hashrate-in-action

View attachment 330744

If it's actually the firmware - which seems likely - it'll be a lot harder for any miner to attempt to install their own BIOS, because these need to be digitally signed. Not impossible, but way harder to achieve their goal. The guy in the video forced a 3070 driver install basically, and the 3060 still halved the hash rate.

And LOL. This idiot just showed the world the SN of the card. It'll take Nvidia a whole 60 seconds to figure out what store sold miners cards a week early. Good luck getting more Geforce card, dumbasses.

View attachment 330748
Huh...that would be a good move then. I'd hope they would be doing the same with the other 30-series cards as well then.

That said, does this impact any other performance of the card negatively or is it only affecting miners. That's what I'd like to know.
 

LukeTbk

Gawd
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
1,017
Actually, your post perfectly illustrates what I've been saying. Never, not a single time, did I ever claim that having some form of light control via a sanctioned queuing system for consumers to be able to buy GPUs would solve shortages.
It was easy to mislead too when you said the following:
You:
Wow. The fact that that is in any way legal blows my mind beyond comprehension. There needs to be some sort of limit to capitalism before it devours itself.
Someone:
Lol!! It's a luxury. You already have laws for essential items during disasters etc. This is not an essential supply to live.

You answer to this:
When car manufacturers are stopping production because they don't have access to chips (because production capacity of all chips is what is generating this shortage) and the situation starts threatening the economy, you'll see how fast the government intervenes

Make it sound like you made a link between car shortage and not even a queuing system for consumers but the fact it was legal for someone with a card to sell it online for any price.

Has for the 3600 that a nice PR move from Nvidia if it work (at least for the amateur miners where custom bios would be a large issue), even if major one can find ways
 

Aegir

Gawd
Joined
Apr 15, 2020
Messages
562
Huh...that would be a good move then. I'd hope they would be doing the same with the other 30-series cards as well then.

That said, does this impact any other performance of the card negatively or is it only affecting miners. That's what I'd like to know.

As the reviewer noted, the card functioned at normal mining speeds for about a minute before the speed got cut in half.
So it certainly does seem to be trying to detect mining. That means the card works normally and good for gamers.
 

euskalzabe

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 9, 2009
Messages
1,412
Huh...that would be a good move then. I'd hope they would be doing the same with the other 30-series cards as well then.

That said, does this impact any other performance of the card negatively or is it only affecting miners. That's what I'd like to know.
Well Nvidia said in the press release I linked to earlier, that the card identifies mining algorithms, and that's when it slows performance. So, it stands to reason that as long as one is not mining, using those algorithms, the card won't react any differently than you'd expect. This is guesswork, of course.
 

LukeTbk

Gawd
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
1,017
As the reviewer noted, the card functioned at normal mining speeds for about a minute before the speed got cut in half.
So it certainly does seem to be trying to detect mining. That means the card works normally and good for gamers.
By other performance it was more blender render, AI learning machine and other workload of the sort than gaming I would imagine.

For which should all not be an issue for a card like a 3060, that can afford to purely target gamer without issue if it is the case.

If it become common I imagine some mining will try to make pass themselve for something else
 
Top