What exactly is the deal with GPUs

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GoldenTiger

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I fully agree with you on appreciating what you already have - this is why I take a few years to upgrade, because it works well enough.
That said, there is absolutely no way your 970 gets you 1080p60 on modern games on max settings. If my 1060 can't do that on something like Control, there's virtually no chance a 970 can, since a 1060 is ~ equivalent to a 980.
He said max textures, not max everything. A 1060 falls between a 970 and 980 in performance.
 

oldmanbal

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I like your sentiment of appreciating what you have. I agree. I will say that my R9 390 doesn't do a good job on modern games no my 1440 ultra wide screen monitor at that resolution. Older games, no problem, and I do play plenty of those as well. But since I can't utilize my current monitor near its potential, I am waiting until I upgrade GPU.
yeah using a 1440p ultrawide falls into that category of extreme that's gonna require a serious gpu to push it towards the max.

I fully agree with you on appreciating what you already have - this is why I take a few years to upgrade, because it works well enough.
That said, there is absolutely no way your 970 gets you 1080p60 on modern games on max settings. If my 1060 can't do that on something like Control, there's virtually no chance a 970 can, since a 1060 is ~ equivalent to a 980.
I only said max textures for the 970 in my comment, not maxing out a game full stop.

For those still looking for your next card - i wish you luck
 

euskalzabe

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I only said max textures for the 970 in my comment, not maxing out a game full stop.
You're right, my mistake, apologies. Yeah, my 1060 can also do max textures with no issue, but there's more to a game's quality than just that - depending on taste, of course; I mostly care about the textures and lighting quality, but I'm always happy to keep shadows on no more than medium.

Out of curiosity - do you ever notice some textures taking a while to show up as hi-res? I definitely see texture popping from low-res to hi-res depending on the game (it was very obvious in Gears 5). You only have .5 GB more of usable memory at full speed than my 1060 3GB, so either that half a gig just makes enough difference - which I doubt, considering Pascal's better memory compression, we probably have similar usable amounts of VRAM - or it's your 256bit bus vs my 192bit one. 232gbsp may actually make the difference vs 192gbps for memory, perhaps your card clears the bar just barely, whereas mine is a tad too slow and is dragged down enough to become noticeable.
 

oldmanbal

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You're right, my mistake, apologies. Yeah, my 1060 can also do max textures with no issue, but there's more to a game's quality than just that - depending on taste, of course; I mostly care about the textures and lighting quality, but I'm always happy to keep shadows on no more than medium.

Out of curiosity - do you ever notice some textures taking a while to show up as hi-res? I definitely see texture popping from low-res to hi-res depending on the game (it was very obvious in Gears 5). You only have .5 GB more of usable memory at full speed than my 1060 3GB, so either that half a gig just makes enough difference - which I doubt, considering Pascal's better memory compression, we probably have similar usable amounts of VRAM - or it's your 256bit bus vs my 192bit one. 232gbsp may actually make the difference vs 192gbps for memory, perhaps your card clears the bar just barely, whereas mine is a tad too slow and is dragged down enough to become noticeable.
Honestly I spend 95% of my gaming time on the 3090 in my daily driver. I really only use the 970 when playing a few multiplayer games on the couch with my son which mostly consist of emulators and pretty easy to run co-op games. I remember the 970 ran far cry 5, Death Stranding, and Shadow of the Tomb Raider pretty well at 1080p for what it's worth.

Years ago when the 970 was fairly new, anytime you went over 3.5gb, it pretty much started chugging along, but that usually took 4k to kick in on new games (not a use scenario anyways). Nowadays you can hit the memory limit a lot easier, but it still seems to somehow balance this well at 1080 on newer games. Nvidia must have done something to really limit the use of that extra garbage memory, if not neuter it completely. Before I rebuilt my sons computer with a 3600 and 1080ti, he was using the 970 with a 2500k, and was able to play minecraft with an absurd number of mods, that easily would have pushed him up to the max memory, and never complained that it wasn't able to hold up under the stress. I'd have to see what other 970 owners say regarding the current status of the upper memory limit for a better consensus though.
 

os2wiz

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Has anyone seen GPUs in stock at AMD's site in the last couple weeks? I've been checking every morning about 6AM PST and also after work in the evening. Never saw anything go into stock.
The gpus are "available" every Thursday between 10 am and 10:40 am. They may get a 100 or so and they go usually in less than 10 minutes. Also do NOT use the F5 refresh key if you use it rapidly they lock you out for an hour . It is a bummer and has happened to me twice. I found this information from an AMD fellow who was available on chat to assist with sales in their online store.
 

scajjr29

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The Cambridge (Boston) MC got in at least 175 GPUs overnight (mostly 3060 non-ti) and according to the MC Fan Discord channel they were sold out in 35 min.

Sam
 

wandplus

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The Cambridge (Boston) MC got in at least 175 GPUs overnight (mostly 3060 non-ti) and according to the MC Fan Discord channel they were sold out in 35 min.

Sam
I don't know if things like this can explain why eBay sales for GPUs are down according to Tomshardware.
 

Andrew_Carr

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I don't know if things like this can explain why eBay sales for GPUs are down according to Tomshardware.
I think that would be due to prices stabilizing at new, higher levels. When even low end cards selling for $100 were earning you almost $100 in a month, they were inevitably going to all be bought out. Now that prices have risen and ETH prices have leveled out, it's now a riskier investment. Buying old cards that could take months to pay themselves off, or never payoff at all, is a lot harder to consider than buying something that prints money. Newer cards still print money, and even if crypto prices crash they'd probably still be profitable, so it makes sense that demand for them remains sky high.
 

kirbyrj

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I don't know if things like this can explain why eBay sales for GPUs are down according to Tomshardware.

I wouldn't trust the information from Tomshardware anymore. If anything it is going to be a repeat of something a week old from another website. They just 2 days ago started discussing the HDMI dummy plug for the 3060 for example.

You also have companies like Asus and MSI scalping the shit out of their own products to cut out the middleman. Look at their 6700XT prices. It's not even a good ETH mining card, and they are are in the $800+ range. I don't care what aftermarket cooling you use, if your card is $300+ over the MSRP, you're trying to scalp me.
 

pek

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I got the latest sale email from Bestbuy, of course nothing in stock, but the cust rep said they are expecting nvidias Apr 5 - 10, no specifics on vendors quantities, I was asking about the evga gforce 3080 FTW for $899. not a great price, but not silly like the 3090's. They may be getting more than just evga 3080's, but the cust rep wouldn't get specific.
 

scajjr29

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Correction on the amount of cards at Cambridge MC. Some original posts from people in line said MC employees said "this was the biggest card drop we've seen in 2months". Turns out they may not have actually been there for those as today's card count was more like 80. Still more than last last couple weeks (not counting 6700xt launch day last Thurs).

sam
 

n0ob3r

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Correction on the amount of cards at Cambridge MC. Some original posts from people in line said MC employees said "this was the biggest card drop we've seen in 2months". Turns out they may not have actually been there for those as today's card count was more like 80. Still more than last last couple weeks (not counting 6700xt launch day last Thurs).

sam
I really wish I had an MC where I lived. I am still debating with myself on taking the 4 hour trip one way just to go :LOL:
 

os2wiz

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I really wish I had an MC where I lived. I am still debating with myself on taking the 4 hour trip one way just to go :LOL:
Micro Center is great for cpus and motherboards. Their pricing and availability for gpus has been weak even before the pandemic. I would NOT make that long trip with the expectation of snagging a top tier gpu .
 

wandplus

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Whatdoh.jpg
Does anyone know why AMD would advertise a video card when people can barely get their hands on one?
 

x509

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It's on twitter so it's free advertising. But I agree - what's the point of advertising anything if your product sells out within minutes.
Because marketing and manufacturing aren't talking with each other? Because marketing plans are set far in advance and are not flexible?
 

n0ob3r

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Because marketing and manufacturing aren't talking with each other? Because marketing plans are set far in advance and are not flexible?
Because the cook likes to talk about how their cookies are delicious...even if you can't get any :cry:
 

Riptide_NVN

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It's on twitter so it's free advertising. But I agree - what's the point of advertising anything if your product sells out within minutes.
As a shareholder it does seem to be a waste of the company's money unless it is free to them like twitter.
 

x509

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As a shareholder it does seem to be a waste of the company's money unless it is free to them like twitter.
It's not free, if the effect is to piss off potential customers. That's reputational damage, which can be costly, especially for the #2 player in the market.
 

euskalzabe

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It's not free, if the effect is to piss off potential customers. That's reputational damage, which can be costly, especially for the #2 player in the market.
It does make you wonder: all the low-level nobody investors (this is not a shot directed at anyone here, I'm talking generalities) keep saying how customers don't matter to businesses and only money matters, while all the big businesses keep insisting how important customers are to their performance. Obviously, I'd say money always has the final say in companies' decisions, but to completely dismiss customer perception (not necessarily loyalty, though that's also a thing for many) is incredibly shortsighted.

Example: how many people do you know that only buy Sony headphones, or Ford trucks, or Loewe handbags, because of the product and customer support both being good in, say, the 90s? It doesn't matter if they buy a meh Sony headphone, or a just ok Ford truck, or an unexcitingly designed Loewe handbag in 2020, it's the fact that those customers enjoyed purchasing and owning the brand in the past that pushes them to buy from them again, and liking to buy from them again. I'll give you my own example. I'm historically a Nvidia buyer:

1616506237158.png


In 2016 I bought AMD because 1) I had never tried AMD before and 2) Polaris was a great price/performance ratio product. The card worked great, performed great. Then the crypto bubble got into high gear, and with AMD cards being so good at mining, it was just stupid not to sell it - I paid $150 for the 470, sold it for $230. I scored a 480 for $200, sold it for $280 (probably could have even gained more, but the point is, I made money). Eventually I bought a 1060 3GB for $200 - similar performance, but Nvidia cards weren't as popular for mining. Throughout all this, Nvidia kept doing shitty things (with youtubers, marketing, etc). The tally: I enjoyed my AMD experience, but my Nvidia experience keeps being tainted because they behave like aholes, fully disrespecting the market that made them big in the first place. Right now I buy Nvidia because there's "no other option", or at least no better option - raytracing performance per tier, DLSS is a legit plus... That's different from my experience with AMD, from whom I would actually like buying again, if they have a competitive product per tier. That's not happening right now, but it'll certainly happen again in the near future. If Intel releases a new product that's a fair deal, I would drop Nvidia like a hot stone in a heartbeat - because I don't enjoy buying from them. If AMD releases their super-resolution already, and gives us a nice, competitive $250 card, I'd likely buy it over the Nvidia option (3050 Ti?) simply because I'd get more satisfaction from giving them money. Not that it really matters, since no one can buy cards anyway, but when this situation starts to get better in 6 months... how consumers perceive your company is certainly an important factor, and should be to any investor.
 
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scajjr29

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I really wish I had an MC where I lived. I am still debating with myself on taking the 4 hour trip one way just to go :LOL:
Cambridge MC usually gets deliveries by truck Sun & Wed nights so Mon & Thurs are the days to try and get a GPU there. BUT there will usually be a line of people who camp out in front of the store, some starting near store closing time Sun & Wed nights. If you are not in the first 10 people in line getting a 3080 is pretty slim, usually the first 20 people can get a card (3060, 3070). Though in the past 2-3 weeks there have been a couple days of low (8) or no cards. There is no advance knowledge of what's coming in.
Not sure if this is the same at other MCs across the country.

sam
 

x509

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Cambridge MC usually gets deliveries by truck Sun & Wed nights so Mon & Thurs are the days to try and get a GPU there. BUT there will usually be a line of people who camp out in front of the store, some starting near store closing time Sun & Wed nights. If you are not in the first 10 people in line getting a 3080 is pretty slim, usually the first 20 people can get a card (3060, 3070). Though in the past 2-3 weeks there have been a couple days of low (8) or no cards. There is no advance knowledge of what's coming in.
Not sure if this is the same at other MCs across the country.

sam
I have to wonder. Isn't there a finite number of people who want the newest GPU cards AND are willing to camp out. After X weeks, haven't all those people gotten their cards?
 
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Aegir

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I have to wonder. Isn't there a finite number of people who want the newest GPU cards AND are willing to camp out. After X weeks, haven't all those people gotten their cards?

Yeah, there have been a few days where Microcenter really does have enough for just about everyone in line, or at least everyone who cared to show up even a few minutes before it opened.
So what's the DEAL with GPUs??
 

euskalzabe

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I have to wonder. Isn't there a finite number of people who want the newest GPU cards AND are willing to camp out. After X weeks, haven't all those people gotten their cards?
Yeah, but there’s still a lot of them left...
 

hititnquitit

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The only microcenter around here services a massive area so im sure it will be quite a while before camping out will be productive.
 

euskalzabe

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Weren't we just mentioning recently how all we needed was a well-timed "accident" to keep prices for everything stratospheric? Well, right on queue:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...gravate-chip-supply-headache-for-car-industry

Now this seems like it'll mostly affect car makers, but it is curious how non fire/flood/wathever-proof these factories have turned out to be in the past decade. Hopefully this will prompt a renaissance of production in the US, we just have to make it a priority. Are business people finally, maybe, hopefully realizing that having most of the production focused in one disaster-prone area is... perhaps not the best business decision? At this rate, perhaps they'll make new chip factories in Oklahoma, where they can guarantee that they'd have less access to water and have to deal with tornadoes on a regular basis :ROFLMAO:

People camping for a GPU six months after release... Crazy world.

Yeah... I'm not even looking anymore. That EVGA queue will eventually notify me. I can lower resolution if I need to, even 900p doesn't look bad on a 27", though I prefer to do 720p on a custom res 21:9 if I really have to (less vertical space, "big" pixels are less noticeable). That said, I'm starting to run out of old games I want to replay... Done with Call of Duties, Resident Evils, Half Lifes, Borderlands, a bunch of zombie games like Dying Light... currently playing F.E.A.R.s and after this I don't know what the heck I'm going to play. I don't have the energy to begin a new MGSV or Final Fantasy campaign...
 

Andrew_Carr

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Weren't we just mentioning recently how all we needed was a well-timed "accident" to keep prices for everything stratospheric? Well, right on queue:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...gravate-chip-supply-headache-for-car-industry

Now this seems like it'll mostly affect car makers, but it is curious how non fire/flood/wathever-proof these factories have turned out to be in the past decade. Hopefully this will prompt a renaissance of production in the US, we just have to make it a priority. Are business people finally, maybe, hopefully realizing that having most of the production focused in one disaster-prone area is... perhaps not the best business decision? At this rate, perhaps they'll make new chip factories in Oklahoma, where they can guarantee that they'd have less access to water and have to deal with tornadoes on a regular basis :ROFLMAO:

Someone elsewhere on [H] made a good post about this. It wouldn't hurt to try IMO, but it would require billions of dollars in investment, multiple years of setup, and most critically I think, the knowledge and expertise to create that manufacturing in the U.S. If Intel can't get 7nm working, I don't have much hope for a government funded project producing much better. And I don't see it getting done without tax dollars because economically it apparently doesn't make sense. So from a business decision while it might not be worth it, from a strategic/national security standpoint it should make sense.
 

euskalzabe

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Someone elsewhere on [H] made a good post about this. It wouldn't hurt to try IMO, but it would require billions of dollars in investment, multiple years of setup, and most critically I think, the knowledge and expertise to create that manufacturing in the U.S. If Intel can't get 7nm working, I don't have much hope for a government funded project producing much better. And I don't see it getting done without tax dollars because economically it apparently doesn't make sense. So from a business decision while it might not be worth it, from a strategic/national security standpoint it should make sense.
Seeing how production keeps being disrupted, business-people should probably start thinking - does it still make sense to get the benefits of cheap labor if nature keeps disrupting production? It might make sense until now, and for now, but might not make sense in the future if the climate doesn't improve - and we don't help it improve. Either way, diversification is always a good idea, and with the very clear demand for chips we have at this point, the investment in a new geographical presence just makes sense. They just need to be willing to put money up front to build it - like they originally did in Taiwan, China, etc. That's where the US government comes in, not with a "government funded project" (it makes no sense for them to get into this, they have 0 expertise and are aware of it), but with generous tax benefits to incentivize the creation of national chip production. See what Wisconsin did with Foxconn, which has been a disaster. Now, do a better version of that, but with US companies that have clear business plans to create chip plants. Foxconn was going to make TVs, then "innovation centers", not EVs apparently. It's a never ending circus with those people.
 

lopoetve

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Seeing how production keeps being disrupted, business-people should probably start thinking - does it still make sense to get the benefits of cheap labor if nature keeps disrupting production? It might make sense until now, and for now, but might not make sense in the future if the climate doesn't improve - and we don't help it improve. Either way, diversification is always a good idea, and with the very clear demand for chips we have at this point, the investment in a new geographical presence just makes sense. They just need to be willing to put money up front to build it - like they originally did in Taiwan, China, etc. That's where the US government comes in, not with a "government funded project" (it makes no sense for them to get into this, they have 0 expertise and are aware of it), but with generous tax benefits to incentivize the creation of national chip production. See what Wisconsin did with Foxconn, which has been a disaster. Now, do a better version of that, but with US companies that have clear business plans to create chip plants. Foxconn was going to make TVs, then "innovation centers", not EVs apparently. It's a never ending circus with those people.
The trick is finding a place that has all the requisite features:
1. Environmental willingness to compromise (Fabs are not environmentally friendly overall)
2. Ready access to a LOT of water (TSMC, for instance, runs ~41M Gallons per DAY for one of theirs affected by the drought in Taiwan, even with recycling)
3. Ready access to the right people and expertise to run / design / utilize it
4. Affordable enough to build all of that and hire all of that without costing too much.
5. A process to run on the line

The Government can help with 4 via tax discounts, and somewhat on 1 (depending on the locale), but you still have to deal with 2 and 3. Intel licensed stuff from TSMC for 5. Which, cool - fine. The water part I always forget about - and it has to be water that you can ultra-purify too, so not all water is created equal.
 

euskalzabe

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The trick is finding a place that has all the requisite features
Excellent summary. And note I never said this would be easy! Importantly, our government hasn't really put any effort in incentivizing this industry in the US. Cheap labor is not the only reason this manufacturing moved to Asia - their governments made massive investments to make it happen. As you mentioned, those governmental efforts can help with most of the issues, despite not solving the situation. If we make chip manufacturing a priority in this country, if the government actually puts policy and monetary weight into it to let private companies generate, develop and support the market, we can do it, just like Asian countries have done. It's the political willingness that's been lacking in the US unlike China, Taiwan, etc., not talent, resources, or geography. We could have new GPUs manufactured right in the US, especially at the speed that automation is taking over these processes (which doesn't look good for politicians because it eliminates the "tasty" new jobs line to constantly parrot, but there's many other economic benefits, the newest of which has been proven in the past year - ending dependence on other countries manufacturing to run our own).
 

wandplus

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I don't want to sound pessimistic but I've been watching sites like canadacomputers and shoprbc. Some days they had something whether it was overpriced or not (or buy online and pickup in store). Now they don't have much of anything. And eBay for the 1650 for example have gone from maybe $380 Canadian to $430 Canadian. I keep on looking out of curiosity though.
 
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