What are the requirements for classifying software as spyware/malware?

P

PcGuy78

Weaksauce
Joined
Jun 25, 2012
Messages
101
Straightforward question looking for straightforward answers. Yes; there will be subsequent inquiries made as well about the topic. Thx in advance.
 
Whoever's running the classification system doesn't like it and it makes any connections to the outside world or changes anything on the installed system.

For example: Notepad from win 3.1 can't be spyware, it doesn't make any network connections or system changes. Notepad from windows 10 might have telemetry? Could be spyware.
 
toast0 said:
Notepad from windows 10 might have telemetry? Could be spyware.
Click to expand...
I think at the minimum spyware would be about both bad faith exfiltration of user information and where the user is unaware. Firefox for example has telemetry yet is praised by the privacy and open source community.

Like there was a Chromium addon called 'Get Cookies.txt' that was recommended by the youtube-dl project and then in more recent updates (last few months) began sending the developer user cookies and browsing history (allowing user logins to be used directly by the dev). This wasn't being disclosed (because ofc who would keep it installed otherwise). There's zero charitable/good faith interpretation of this, hence it'd reasonably be classified as spyware.
 
So two factors seem to be unanimous between the supplied replies so far. Have yet to visit the kaspersky link & that information is appreciated as well. I'll get to researching it and respond accordingly. Also, do users understand and ignore spyware/malware? Or is identifying these types of apps unbeknownst to them( general Users ofc ) altogether? Additionally, some of the response so far indicates both. At least somewhat, even if passively. Honesty, then, seems to be an expectation of the User when purchasing, using, and interacting with code on basic Computing levels. An expectation that comes with the notion of not having to perform this step because it should already be compete by the author(s) of the code. The author(s) and distributor(s). For me, that is especially important. Correct me when I'm wrong and or support any valid information developing in this thread.


Req one: CHANGES User Defined system variables without consent or alert. The most common behavior>>>forced/constant/silent/denied(? )etc state changing

Req two: Recording, Logging, Transmitting, Copying of User Data without consent
 
riiiight.... what is the reason behind this questioning when you can just google stuff yourself?
 
PcGuy78 said:
Also, do users understand and ignore spyware/malware? Or is identifying these types of apps unbeknownst to them( general Users ofc ) altogether? Additionally, some of the response so far indicates both. At least somewhat, even if passively. Honesty, then, seems to be an expectation of the User when purchasing, using, and interacting with code on basic Computing levels
Click to expand...

Also; reliance on "googling" has reduced the capacity to memorize. Creating thought and challenging one another is a must if we are to remain intelligent Human Beings. Something I see being threatened heavily by this "habit" of letting a search engine replace memory, critical thought, and other aspects of our Intelligence.

--update--
Surprisingly, no one asked about why this was posted in the Operating System category? There may be more Users in denial or simply unaware of how much is going on with these OS's lately. Not just PC, but also Mobile Devices as well. Has it become acceptable to allow this type of rogue software access to the Network?
These "types" are some of the installed "apps"(designation assigned to disguise what they really are) that our mainstream Hardware runs on. Namely distributed by MICROSOFT, GOOGLE, AMAZON. And no; this isn't some ploy to get homework done. And some might actually want to get their pens, paper, tablets etc and take notes because I'm taking you to school. Thank everyone that contributes later. Now we start a real conversation about tech, purpose, our Future. People that are exemplifying greed, subjecting others to the affects of their greed while decreasing the quality of our species. And yes ALL using programs as a method--THE method.
I'll start by bringing the title back into focus of what's required to classify (code aka software) as spy/malware. And by these commonly understood factors we'll begin detailing how MS Win 10, 11(beyond???), & Mobile Device Operating Systems all operate with and as spyware/malware. Yet, we just allow this now?

On Win 10 (and 11):
1) Locks COMPUTER OWNER out of controlling processes, affinity of said processes, services, runtime configurations, network behaviors of PROGRAMS within the OS environment that are INCLUDED with the OS. >> Have you all researched this? I have.

2) DISCARDS set USER VARIABLES

3) AGGRESSIVELY runs program executable in and endless loop fashion when said executable(s) are TERMINATED by the COMPUTER OWNER

4) RECORDS, LOGS, DISTRIBUTES COMPUTER OWNER data across networks WITHOUT PERMISSION

5) INSTALLS all of the ABOVE WITHOUT PERMISSION

These are basic examples of only a few behaviors and states this program (WINDOWS OS) exhibits.

Do I or have I EVER needed ANYONE to do any "HOME" work for me? Absolutely not. Is this about some homework assignment? No. This is about actually remaining an ADMIN and POWER COMPUTING individual who's been performing research over a vast amount of time. Watching as technology becomes more intrusive & these intrusions benefiting intruders. Both Societal and Personal. So I'm challenging other like-minded individuals to remain diligent. Even when it's easy to become distracted, coerced, etc. by temptation to "do what they do". An easy road leading to nothing and destruction.
 
Last edited:
For me, if it is doing something I didn't specifically tell it to do--biggest example is using or even touching the ethernet connection without my approval.
 
Ok Mr. Research PcGuy78 - where's your paper on the topic? Where's your sources? Where's your data? I'm seeing a whole lot of words thrown at the wall with... nothing really supporting it at all beyond basically, "trust me, I KNOW". You made multiple claims to having done research - well, let's see it. Do you even know what research truly is?
If you're going to supplant your own definition with those... 5 odd points for what you think malware is, then, I could make 5 others and basically encapsulate any software as malware. This isn't any kind of awesome academic achievement... or a good basis for a real debate or discussion.
You've been registered on this site for nearly 11 years and don't contribute here at all. Why is that?

I'll go ahead and waste a little more time dissecting this... uh, whatever this is.

On Win 10 (and 11):
1) Locks COMPUTER OWNER out of controlling processes, affinity of said processes, services, runtime configurations, network behaviors of PROGRAMS within the OS environment that are INCLUDED with the OS. >> Have you all researched this? I have.

2) DISCARDS set USER VARIABLES

3) AGGRESSIVELY runs program executable in and endless loop fashion when said executable(s) are TERMINATED by the COMPUTER OWNER

4) RECORDS, LOGS, DISTRIBUTES COMPUTER OWNER data across networks WITHOUT PERMISSION

5) INSTALLS all of the ABOVE WITHOUT PERMISSION
Click to expand...
1) Again, I need to ask where your proof of this is happening on Win10 and 11. I run both. What do you even mean by any of the word salad you made here? What "research" have you done? Link to it?
2) What variables? I have zero issues CRUDing any user or system vars to my heart's desire on Win10 and 11. Link to proof otherwise? Or what do you mean by USER VARIABLES?
3) This one I could maaaaybe get behind? But hoo boy is it broad. I don't even have confidence you know what "endless loop" means, let alone have enough knowledge to know what those executables are doing.
4) What do you mean "WITHOUT PERMISSION"? And what's with the catch-all of "computer owner data"? Be specific, cite your examples, show your work.
5) Installs what? Where is permission granted? In all your vast many years of source code surfing and forensic checking, did you bother to step back and read any of the agreements you clicked Next on when installing the OS?

I look forward to your in-depth reply which is replete with supporting evidence, links to actual proof, and clarity on your odd terms so the discuss you so desire can actually happen. Otherwise, I think we're done here, and you can take your tinfoil hat elsewhere perhaps.
A final parting hopefully helpful tidbit - don't insult the folks you are attempting to have a conversation with.
 
I'm sure a lot of people "look forward to your in-depth reply...". Especially the programmers coding this WINDOWS garbage. Since being away from this board, I'm talking years, I've been researching this WINDOWS 10. Any person with even an ounce of Computer knowledge knows exactly which methods to use to get any proof. Stating that here is not even remotely necessary. If it is, then apparently this is a very different [H]ard forum than it used to be. Are you all co-signing this craptastic nonsense they call an OPERATING SYSTEM?
And to be completely clear:
You want to see my Data? Get me a proper audience. You simply asking "how I know" seems like a troll in and of itself...
 
PcGuy78 said:
I'm sure a lot of people "look forward to your in-depth reply...". Especially the programmers coding this WINDOWS garbage. Since being away from this board, I'm talking years, I've been researching this WINDOWS 10. Any person with even an ounce of Computer knowledge knows exactly which methods to use to get any proof. Stating that here is not even remotely necessary. If it is, then apparently this is a very different [H]ard forum than it used to be. Are you all co-signing this craptastic nonsense they call an OPERATING SYSTEM?
And to be completely clear:
You want to see my Data? Get me a proper audience. You simply asking "how I know" seems like a troll in and of itself...
Click to expand...
I'm not asking how to get proof, I'm asking for YOUR proof. You're making claims, back them up. None of your claims pass even the slightest test. Give proof, give examples, give data, otherwise you're just another person making wild claims to seek attention.
1) No, you can still quite easily do all those things. In Task Manager > Details, select any running process and you can set priority and affinity and control services. I don't even know what you mean by "runtime configurations" since those would be application layer, not OS layer, so it's nonsense. Network behaviors are again application layer, but you can use either windows firewall, or a proper firewall, to control your network.
2) As I said, I can CRUD user and system variables to my heart's content on Win10 and Win11. If you can't, you broke your install(s) somehow. It's simple to do, maybe you just don't know how to? Open System Properties, go to Advanced, and click Environment Variables (same place it's been for many years).
3) Again this one is pretty nonsensical. Give an example of one program that is in an "endless loop" even if you terminate it? I can think of a number of services that do restart, but, they're necessary services. And I'll gladly throw the bone that MS is aggressive in re-enabling disabled apps and services, especially during patches. But even one of the worst ones (IMO), cortana, if you kill the service and any PIDs, it stays dead at least through reboot. This one I'll give you as "you're right", in some specific regards though. However, that is very well documented - you're not discovering or saying anything new.
4) What data does it log, specifically? "computer owner data" is extremely vague. And yes, I've done actual network packet capturing and analysis (for a living), and unless opt-in, there's no PII at all. There is obfuscated system info, service info, and Dx info. If you opt-in to other services, then other info certainly can be sent out, of course, but you're opting in to that.
5) "Without permission" is BS and you know it. You explicitly granted permission when you install or activate the OS.

There ya have it.
 
I can't help but think that Windows and Microsoft are a major reason why PC sales are tanking.
 
Like PcGuy78 I don’t post much, mainly because I fail to express myself clearly so individuals like Eulogy “tear me a new one” because their deprh of knowledge is deeper than mine.
If individuals would explain instead of berate us we would post more.
That said let me post a few links.

https://www.theverge.com/2013/6/6/4...-apple-google-facebook-microsoft-others-prism

https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-indu...l-greater-detail-about-prism-data-collection/


https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...s-it-and/7653b847-23f1-42c4-9390-ba2d35978e4e

https://www.makeuseof.com/microsoft-compatibility-telemetry-process-high-cpu-usage/

I will probably be massacred for this one. I tead the same on sn IT site but can’t find it.

https://forums.mydigitallife.net/threads/windows-10-ltsc-ignoring-telemetry-settings.82380/

That’s enough for now. A microsoft programmer lives down the street from me. I was telling him my experience with bitdefender. All reviews that I resd always has it one of the top rated antivirus programs. I installed it and could not configure it to my liking so I uninstalled it. Rebooted, noticed in task manager something from bit defender was still running so I shut the PC down and restarted it. Still present, checked control panel, program gone. Checked with explorer, folder dtill there with executables(I don’t recall if the full program was there). Called bitdefender - stated that a part of the program remains and can’t be uninstalled. I don’t recall exactly what it did but they blew it off. I shut pc down, disconnected it from the internet, spent a few hours and was finally able to delete it going to a command prompt in safe mode.

Spoke to the microsoft guy - his response people don’t realize they are really installing malware that infiltrates all parts of your operating system.

I used Avast for a while but they got in trouble for selling their subscribers data.

An IT friend kept extolling the virtues of bit defender so I foolish tried again. Still unhappy so I tried uninstalling it. ROFL. Not happening. Damn program had infiltrated everywhere and in multiple programs. Command prompt from installation media was required this time and then editing my registry. I still could not get rid of all of it.

I’m sure my references will be questioned and I will be berated and probably be told how stupid I am why I didn’t use an uninstaller like Revo (I didn’t think of it at the time. As for executables and command prompts running when not prompted - I’ ve seen that once or twice recently too. I searched and couldn’t find out where they came from.

My opinion - Linux is looking more attractive.

Have fun Eulogy - now you can write my epitaph.
 
OP: let's have a philosophical discussion about "what does 'malware' mean"!

[H]: uh ok

OP: Ah-Ha I FOOLED you, this thread is actually for complaining about Windows 10!

<distant rumbling, screams, sounding of horns>
 
As the old saying goes, I can't define it but I know it when I see it. If Ivan Blowovitch steals my login info to steal money from my bank accounts, that's malware.

What if Facebook is collecting usage data, so they can sell it for a profile. Yeah, that's malware in my book.

What if Microsoft collects telemetry data so they can figure out how to optimize Windows, but that's all they do with the data, is that malware? (this is a hypothetical.)
 
Deadjasper said:
One of the many reasons I switched to Linux.
Click to expand...
I guess it all depends on your use case to justify or not a switch to Linux. I don't want to start another Yankees vs, Red Sox thread here, so I'll just say that for me, Linux doesn't begin to work for me as a user. I'm both a PC user and a bit of a PC hobbyist.

How about them Cubs?
 
philb2 said:
I guess it all depends on your use case to justify or not a switch to Linux. I don't want to start another Yankees vs, Red Sox thread here, so I'll just say that for me, Linux doesn't begin to work for me as a user. I'm both a PC user and a bit of a PC hobbyist.

How about them Cubs?
Click to expand...

I'm thankful there are choices. If there was only one OS available you'd have to take out a mortgage to buy a license or else the monthly payment would put it out of reach of the average user and if you're OK with Microsoft spying on your every more then who am I to judge?
 
Deadjasper said:
I'm thankful there are choices. If there was only one OS available you'd have to take out a mortgage to buy a license or else the monthly payment would put it out of reach of the average user and if you're OK with Microsoft spying on your every more then who am I to judge?
Click to expand...
I miss DOS...
 
philb2 said:
I have to ask. Can you run MSDOS on a 16 TB HDD? I'm assuming version 2.1 or later.
Click to expand...
Probably yes, but not if you want to use all that space. Maaaaaybe if you use msdos from win95 (dos 7) so you have fat32 *and* the drive reports 4096 sectors.
 
toast0 said:
Probably yes, but not if you want to use all that space. Maaaaaybe if you use msdos from win95 (dos 7) so you have fat32 *and* the drive reports 4096 sectors.
Click to expand...
In the same spirit, imagine DOS 6 running on an SSD. :ROFLMAO:
 
philb2 said:
But were you still using floppy disks for mass storage? (not an SSD? :ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...
No, it had a 20mb hard drive, in the end we ran dos 6 with disk compression and had about 20mb of space because the bad sectors ate half, and compression gave it back. Also, we ended up with only a 5.25" double density floppy, it came with a 3.25" double density floppy, and we added the 5.25", but when my dad tried to fiddle with getting high density working, he broke a pin in the connector and we ended up worse off than where we were.
 
philb2 said:
I have to ask. Can you run MSDOS on a 16 TB HDD? I'm assuming version 2.1 or later.
Click to expand...
Yep, in a way. You have to format the drive with 4k sectors and then partition it in 2TB partitions for 8x logical drives and format them FAT32 and use the msdos.sys and system.sys (I think those are the names--been a bit rusty) from win 98 for your 'DOS' base, and there you go!
 
philb2 said:
In the same spirit, imagine DOS 6 running on an SSD. :ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...
It's instant. Boots like it was an embedded system. Vingcard series 2100 key encoders used DOS on custom hardware and the software on a PCMCIA card--booted instantly, but if you watched the screen closely, you could see the memtest and boot.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top