What are the best options for a MiniPC or ITX build?

SomeRando

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I was going to get a miniPC but sadly there are a few issues.
1)
Intel has released a new microcode that may block all undervolting on Adlher lake and Raptor lake CPUs except on K processors and even on those it may be blocked. If manufacturer does not unlock the features. So most miniPCs that were promising are potentially worthless for my needs.

2) Most miniPCs lack sufficient cooling capabilities to even run stock (50-100w TDP). Originally, they looked promising but after significant research only 1 or 2 seem promising but with intel's new micro code they probably wont work for me because they'll be locked. Otherwise there were 2 interesting options for miniPCs. Those were the NAD9 and S600 APEX engineer. The S600 cooling is sadly insufficient after finding reviews that actually tested cooling. It capped at 60ish w TDP. The NAD9 capped at similar TDP but it has a very slow fan. So I could add a more powerful 80mm fan that would allow significantly higher TDPs. It would be a usable options plus offered an options to add an MXM GPU. The problem is as above Intels new microcode so I don't know if its overclockable.

So I am researching ITX builds or some other custom situation. Is ITX my best option for a small build or are their better options I don't know about?

What I am looking for:
I am looking for preferably Raptor Lake but Adhler lake would be okay. I need at least a 6P+8E cores CPU but I would prefer an 8P+8E or 8P+16E. I need it to be unlocked and as small as possible. I plan on doing several things. I want to research and test the power efficiency in regards to how it scales with frequency. Plus I need as much CPU performance as possible with lowest power. So I'll be running the large CPU at very low clocks. I have strong reasons to believe Intel will beat AMD Zen 3 in this with proper optimizations and I want to test this. It might even beat the new 4nm Zen4 or at least be comparable.

So, I plan on running it at lower voltages and clocks and want the largest CPU I can get of the current gen.

What are the best motherboards for an ITX or whatever mini build? I only see like a few options on newegg for ITX 700 series MB. Do 600 series also work or are 700 series only option? I see a lot of 600 series but not sure if those will work. Do I have to get a Z series or will a B series work?

What are the best small cases? I do not need space for BD drives or hard drives. I only need the motherboard, CPU/cooler, and M.2. Maybe a SATA drive. ATM I do not need space for a GPU. I am okay with buying 2 different cases. 1 ultra small case with no GPU and a small case with room for a GPU. I am interested in both options for various reasons I wont bore you or take up your time with details.

Anyone knowledgably in these area of mini PCs? I have never build a mini PC before and only knowledgeable in servers and large gaming/performance PCs.

Than you for any any advice you can offer!

EDIT: The other option I saw that was promising was the HP Z series of miniPCs but those are insanely expensive and something I will consider down the road.
 
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This will probably be your best option, then:
Ryzen 7900 non-X (it has 65w TDP)
Mobo ASRock B650E itx or Asus B650E Strix ITX
 
as i clearly said no AMD so that won't work for the reasons above
Sorry can't find it in your post above.
Or are you actually referring to this:
I have strong reasons to believe Intel will beat AMD Zen 3 in this with proper optimizations and I want to test this. It might even beat the new 4nm Zen4 or at least be comparable.

If so, Zen4, in this case Ryzen 7900 matches the performance of Intel 12900K/S (intel's 12th gen, last year flagship) and trailed a bit Intel 13700K (intel 13th gen) while only using 90w.
Check the review here:

1. https://www.anandtech.com/show/1869...-review-ryzen-7000-at-65-w-zen-4-efficiency/2
2. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ryzen-5-7600-cpu-review
3. https://www.pcgamer.com/amd-ryzen-7-7900-cpu-review-benchmarks/

But if you're dead set on building Intel platform, then the only choice is 13700k + any z790 itx board. 13700k has reasonable power draw and the temp is a bit more manageable than say 13900F/KF/K/KS variants.
 
What I am looking for:
I am looking for preferably Raptor Lake but Adhler lake would be okay.
I need at least a 6P+8E cores CPU but I would prefer an 8P+8E or 8P+16E. I need it to be unlocked and as small as possible. I plan on doing several things. I want to research and test the power efficiency in regards to how it scales with frequency. Plus I need as much CPU performance as possible with lowest power. So I'll be running the large CPU at very low clocks. I have strong reasons to believe Intel will beat AMD Zen 3 in this with proper optimizations and I want to test this. It might even beat the new 4nm Zen4 or at least be comparable.
Yes that line and the first line lol. I bolded them for you ^-^

I'll check those tests out later but the TechPowerUp review on this and others have only limited the clock settings or worse only power limits and didn't adjust voltages and a few other key adjustments. Intels turbo boost voltages are excessively high stock and simply limiting TDP does not give good results for a variety of reasons.

1) because turbo voltages are excessively high
2) limiting only TDP does a poor job because it does not lower voltages and does not properly load the load over the entire chip so the chip runs excessively high frequency and voltage.
3) some other things too but i'll leave it at the 2 biggest issues.

additionally, intel has those E cores that are far more efficient than Zen 4 especially if you run it at ~2000hz. I have testing on older gens that show this very well but I can't post that research data ATM. If you do what I said above and properly optimize the CPU I am confident it will beat Zen 4 significantly.
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What is the difference from Z690 and Z790? Is there a reason Z790 is better than Z690 and should get that over the other?
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I did find some really interesting cases a couple days ago and the most interesting one is a bit complicated but probably exactly what I need. Shocked I came across it.

Check this out. I very well might use this for my future outside/off grind streaming of some outdoor projects because its small but still offers good cooling and a GPU! It also is designed to use DC-DC power! o_O
So this is the most promising ATM:
https://nfc-systems.com/skyreach-4-mini

ATM, this is runner up but need to research more and see if anyone has better ideas.
https://www.newegg.com/black-fracta...&ranSiteID=oelFIBIMgTk-Yc3I4oNBFwQLWNm7psCkRw

Here are some others and some sites with recommendations I have found but not all of them fit my plans but i'll post it here just in case anyone stumbles across this and needs this:
https://voltcave.com/smallest-itx-cases/
https://www.tomshardware.com/best-picks/best-mini-itx-pc-cases

https://www.ign.com/articles/the-best-mini-itx-pc-cases

https://www.newegg.com/grey-ssupd-m...&ranSiteID=oelFIBIMgTk-CdJN1W8j8Xt0LYqvWhjCQA
 
Sorry can't find it in your post above.
Or are you actually referring to this:


If so, Zen4, in this case Ryzen 7900 matches the performance of Intel 12900K/S (intel's 12th gen, last year flagship) and trailed a bit Intel 13700K (intel 13th gen) while only using 90w.
Check the review here:

1. https://www.anandtech.com/show/1869...-review-ryzen-7000-at-65-w-zen-4-efficiency/2
2. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ryzen-5-7600-cpu-review
3. https://www.pcgamer.com/amd-ryzen-7-7900-cpu-review-benchmarks/

But if you're dead set on building Intel platform, then the only choice is 13700k + any z790 itx board. 13700k has reasonable power draw and the temp is a bit more manageable than say 13900F/KF/K/KS variants.
btw as i said before i am going to be running custom settings so 13900 probably will offer better performance per watt due to offering more cores and more e cores
 
What is the difference from Z690 and Z790? Is there a reason Z790 is better than Z690 and should get that over the other?
Improvement on memory overclocking, other features tied to RPL, and native support for RPL cpus.
Regarding the memory overclocking, if you ever consider to run more than 7200mhz with vdd/tx more than 1.45v for daily, then I'm afraid mini itx scheme will be very hard to do unless you go water (the IC and PIMC of DDR5 require fan to lower the temp).

So this is the most promising ATM:
https://nfc-systems.com/skyreach-4-mini
Intel 13900 is 8P Core + 16E core (with total 32 threads) monster with default TDP 65w and up to 219w turbo.
You will be thermally limited in those small cases, but if you have the budget then why not. (y)
 
Improvement on memory overclocking, other features tied to RPL, and native support for RPL cpus.
Regarding the memory overclocking, if you ever consider to run more than 7200mhz with vdd/tx more than 1.45v for daily, then I'm afraid mini itx scheme will be very hard to do unless you go water (the IC and PIMC of DDR5 require fan to lower the temp).


Intel 13900 is 8P Core + 16E core (with total 32 threads) monster with default TDP 65w and up to 219w turbo.
You will be thermally limited in those small cases, but if you have the budget then why not. (y)
BTW, I was looking at the new techpowerup review of the 7950X3D and at the efficiency page. The 7950X3D is surprising efficient and uses a lot less power than the 13900K but they don't tell you what the frequency/voltage of the CPUs were running during the test. If 7950X3D was running at lets say 4Ghz in the test and 13900K was running at 5.8GHz it would explain the big difference in power usage and the 2 CPUs would probably not be drastically different in power usage/efficiency clock for clock. If you ran both CPUs at similar low clock speeds* they might be roughly comparable, which was my point above.

*or whatever frequency is most efficient for each CPU (It will vary between CPUs)

If you look at the chart more thoroughly you will see the 13400F has nearly identical power efficiency as the 7950X3D. This CPU actually has a higher ratio of P cores to E cores than the 13900K. 13400F is 1.5P:1E vs the 13900K is 1P:2E. So, if I am doing the math right that is a 150% difference in P to E cores between the 2 of them. Meaning the 13900K should be able to have significantly more processing capability and efficiency per system power budget if properly optimized. (Assuming the power budget isn't too low) So, the 13900K should actually out perform the 13400F in efficacy if they are at comparable clocks and voltages. The one issue that could or maybe would bring down the efficiency of the 13900K would be the iGPU. I don't know how much power that uses at ideal.

Do you know how much power the iGPU uses at ideal? Or at minimal load like running a single 1080P or 4K monitor?

This is the article: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-7950x3d/24.html

Here are screenshots that are labeled/marked pointing out everything above.

1) 13900K has significantly better single thread efficiency than 7950X3D. It would be drastically better if Intel was using FIVR but sadly, they still haven't brought it back. They did hastily introduce DLVR which was not as good as FIVR but a decent middle ground. Unfortunately it looks like it was fused off so Raptor lake isn't using it ATM. No idea why they would do that. Some engineer samples do have it. I might look into possibly getting one of those engineer samples if available on ebay or something. They might be worth it if notably more efficient. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-dlvr-fused-off-in-raptor-lake
7950X3D 13900K and 13400F power-singlethread.png

2) Here you can see how much more efficient 13900K and especially the 13400F are in performance per watt compared to the 7950X3D. With some tweaking the 13900K can do even better but still will never be as efficient as the 13400F because the 13900K is obviously a much larger CPU/Die and has a higher idle power usage.

7950X3D 13900K and 13400F efficiency-singlethread.png

3) Here you can see that the 13400F is very close to the 7950X3D in multithread efficiency. So the 13900K should be able to at least match that if not beat it by a significant margin if properly tweak. Intel has the 13900K set up to sell at maximum performance not efficiency because its their performance flagship and that is what the average consumer wants and the end user can always and easily underclock and under volt these if they want to, which is what I will be doing. Remember the 13900K has a much higher ratio of E cores to P cores so it should be able to bet the 13400F in multithread efficiency as long as the iGPU doesn't use that much power on idle and/or with 1 monitor connected.

7950X3D 13900K and 13400F efficiency-multithread.png

Does this now make sense to you? Do you see now how Intel's hybrid Raptor Lake CPU particularly 13900K is either as efficient or possibly more efficient than AMDs 7950X3D? Majority of people fail to understand and do the basic math on how CPUs voltage and clock speed greatly affect power needed. CPUs power requirements grow exponentially the higher the frequency. Every CPU has an ideal frequency that it runs most efficient and thats frequently around 1500-2500 MHz

EDIT: on a side note, that one case that supported a GPU but was also DC to DC power. I will probably be using a high powered fan or possibly even mod case for a slightly beefier heatsink fan. I have to join their discord and see what others have done but I think 100 watts TDP for CPU is probably very easy without even modding the case, which would be within my target goal. I'll post down the road as I figure out more.
 
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Does this now make sense to you? Do you see now how Intel's hybrid Raptor Lake CPU particularly 13900K is either as efficient or possibly more efficient than AMDs 7950X3D?
You link the pic from the TPU review yet you yourself fail to see that PIC already included the performance per watt based on the max boost clock speed both Intel 13th gen & Ryzen 7000 reached???

Whatever suit your narrative regarding your choice (and I already told you whatever suit your choice and needs, you choose it, not me):

But if you're dead set on building Intel platform, then the only choice is 13700k + any z790 itx board. 13700k has reasonable power draw and the temp is a bit more manageable than say 13900F/KF/K/KS variants.
 
You link the pic from the TPU review yet you yourself fail to see that PIC already included the performance per watt based on the max boost clock speed both Intel 13th gen & Ryzen 7000 reached???

Whatever suit your narrative regarding your choice (and I already told you whatever suit your choice and needs, you choose it, not me):
OMG, you clearly did not read what I said and failed to understand CPU frequency and power draw scaling. I am not justifying anything. I simply explained how CPU frequency and power draw scales and why the charts show what they show and what the charts aren't showing unless you look very closely at the numbers and power draws from same generations.
 
The 12th gen Intel Extreme Nuc is really compact, offers desktop level performance, it is quiet and fits in an incredibly compact space.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1692047-REG/intel_rnuc12dcmi90001_dragon_canyon_core_i9.html
The major downside of the 12th gen will mostly be size of GPU that it's compatible with both in length and width. The GPU market in terms of coolers is getting crazy; at first it was 2 slot, then 2.5 slot, now it's 3+ slot width coolers. And the length of a lot of cards exceeds 12". If you're using "not flagship cards" or intentionally smaller cooling systems on flagship cards it should be sufficient. It should fit a 2.5 slot up to 11.5" card IIRC. Don't quote me on that, definitely research the space the unit can hold and your GPU before buying. But if what you have fits, again, this is a solid option.

Review:


The Nuc 13 Extreme also exists for current gen:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1734421-REG/intel_rnuc13rngi90001_nuc_13_extreme_kit.html
The big downside here is mostly just size (and cost). It's much bigger than the previous version. Upside it can fit most anything, but it's also at least double the size. So, if being ultra compact is part of the appeal, then it may not be the best option. However if you do put a 7900XTX or 4090, basically it will be one of the fastest small options on the market.

Review:
 
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The 12th gen Intel Extreme Nuc is really compact, offers desktop level performance, it is quiet and fits in an incredibly compact space.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1692047-REG/intel_rnuc12dcmi90001_dragon_canyon_core_i9.html
The major downside of the 12th gen will mostly be size of GPU that it's compatible with both in length and width. The GPU market in terms of coolers is getting crazy; at first it was 2 slot, then 2.5 slot, now it's 3+ slot width coolers. And the length of a lot of cards exceeds 12". If you're using "not flagship cards" or intentionally smaller cooling systems on flagship cards it should be sufficient. It should fit a 2.5 slot up to 11.5" card IIRC. Don't quote me on that, definitely research the space the unit can hold and your GPU before buying. But if what you have fits, again, this is a solid option.


I have an INNO3D GEFORCE RTX 4070 Ti X3 OC in my 12th Gen Extreme NUC (NUC12DCMi9) which fits perfectly and draws less power than the "Intel Certified" 3080 GPU.
 
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