we laugh at people who don't know the basics of heat transfer

[Bananadog]

hey mr. face, can i see pics of your setup, either your fans are those 190 cfm fans by delta, or uh uh you're running water cooling..

 

[Spidey329]

Ok, just for you, I ran a test. Using a micro-ATX computer + case. 1 case fan, low speed, temps were:

Ambient (AIR): 60*F
Mobo: 46*C - Idle
CPU: 56*C - Idle

Now, I added two fans (both exhaust):

Ambient (AIR): 60*F
Mobo: 33*C - Idle
CPU: 39*C - Idle


Hmmmm, go figure. If you have an intake and exhaust fan, this causes a wind tunnel effect. The "wind" helps to further cool. Hot air "bottles" at the top of a case. So having exhaust fans on the top, will definately help cool the case.

I seriously hope you aren't being serious.

My case temp is 20C...

My case temp is -15C! Why? Because I'm running it in a freezer </sarcasm>

It doesn't tell us anything unless you give us the actual temperature of the surrounding air (ala, your room temp). People always post CPU-temps and MB-temps.

Remember folks, in a cooling aspect for comparison, it doesn't matter worth two craps if you have a -5*C temp or a 1005*C temp. It's all about the difference between ambient-air and your parts (cpu part -minus- ambient air).

 

[tehandydumke]

are you joking? I turned my one fan from 70% to 100% and i lowered like 5 degree's no lie

 

[sKiTz0]

well.. um.. congratulations. Ever stop to think that maybe other people arent in the same position as you, and their ambient temp isnt <65 degrees? Since airflow isnt neccessary at all, I would really appreciate it if you put your system in a trash bag and tied it up nice and tight.. and see how many hours you can go before something burns up or you start getting random restarts... I am personally in a relatively cool place also, and in my.. erm briefcase (case mod ) I only have two case fans, its all that will easily fit, but it does the job. Without them, I would be burning in no time.. since theres no other ventilation. Sure once you get past 4 fans... you quickly get diminishing returns, and it is pushing pointless, but in some situations its more neccessary than others. Sure youre presenting your opinion, but thats like asking a woman if the womens rights movement is good and then proclaiming that her answer is the definitive answer.

 

[kovermours]

Sig for temps, and note the very last line. I'm using the FanMate to keep the Zalman at its lowest and a Vantec fanbus to keep the stock 120mm fan (the only case fan besides the psu fan) at its highest speed where it still makes no noticeable noise.

It's about average ambient temp in here, ~17-18C.

I don't really want to add a front case fan, but I've heard rumours about HDs dying from heat (I have three 7200rpm ones in here), and fans are cheap, so I plan on buying a Papst fan sometime soon.

(edit) I won't be posting in this thread anymore, I'd rather step away than be stepped on, so flame away if you desire, I won't notice.

 

[Spewn]

Originally posted by MrFace
I wasn't aware post count had anything to do with intelligence, my apologies.

Here is a pic of my load temps.

41C, not bad for an OC'ed Barton at 1.72 volts and a 'crappy heatsink/fan combo'

41'C isn't that bad, considering a 19'C case temp(20' above the ambient case temp). What's the temperature like *outside* of your case? Also, where on your board is the temperature sensor located?

Edit: Try running prime95 for 4 or 5 hours, instead of running 10 sandra burn-in tests, to get your load temps. 10 burn-in tests isn't all that much. If you only ran those 10 tests, your cpu was under load for a whopping(estimated) 3 whole minutes! Don't stress yourself there bucko! (note: If you actually ran it for a few hours, excuse my sarcasm, but 10 tests at about 20 seconds each isn't "load" temperatures)

 

[MrFace]

This is for the guy who asked to see my setup:

I have a Volcano 11+ and the stock heat sink fan. I used the grill from the Volcano 11+ fan to mount the stock fan so that it blows directly onto the MOSFETS and the heatsink itself...

 

[kronchev]

ok, now show us the whole case and how your "one fan" keeps things that cool...with the side on.

 

[jpmkm]

You make fun of people for having a lot of fans in their cases, yet you have two fans mounted right next to each other blowing on a heatsink. Talk about overkill. Maybe if you had a case fan you wouldn't need two fans right next to each other like that.

 

[MrFace]

Originally posted by kronchev
ok, now show us the whole case and how your "one fan" keeps things that cool...with the side on.

Um, it cools it the same way?

 

[MrFace]

Originally posted by jpmkm
You make fun of people for having a lot of fans in their cases, yet you have two fans mounted right next to each other blowing on a heatsink. Talk about overkill. Maybe if you had a case fan you wouldn't need two fans right next to each other like that.

Two fans compared to 4-5 fans....I used my brains to realize "Hmmm, MOSFETS get pretty hot. Hmm it's right next to the processor. Hmmm, looks like THIS AREA IS WHAT ACTUALLY NEEDS COOLING!!!"

Thanks kiddo.

 

[jpmkm]

Originally posted by MrFace
Um, it cools it the same way?

How can it cool the same way if there are no case fans to draw air in? Did you run your processor at full load for a few hours like we suggested?

 

[Spewn]

Originally posted by jpmkm
How can it cool the same way if there are no case fans to draw air in? Did you run your processor at full load for a few hours like we suggested?

By my estimation, his processor ran at full load for an astonishing 200 seconds(approximately).

 

[jpmkm]

Originally posted by MrFace
Two fans compared to 4-5 fans....I used my brains to realize "Hmmm, MOSFETS get pretty hot. Hmm it's right next to the processor. Hmmm, looks like THIS AREA IS WHAT ACTUALLY NEEDS COOLING!!!"

Thanks kiddo.

If you brought some fresh air in the case instead of letting the air stagnate then maybe they wouldn't get so hot. I don't understand why that is so hard for you to understand. Fans just move air around, which draws heat away. They don't just magically make things cold. What good does it do to blow hot air at something?

 

[d34dly]

Originally posted by MrFace
I will admit, my initial post and thread title is 'snobby" and I really should have reworded it...

MBM gives me the same temperatures too.

I apologize to the people I have "offended" because I do not think like them. I just hope I never show pics of my case, because people will scoff it because I do not have rounded IDE cables, a "quality" PSU or shiney cool lights.

I think snobby was an understatement. And I have never seen anyone here "scoff" at someones case because of how it looks. There are exceptions to every rule, but I highly doubt anyone would "scoff" at it.

The only thing there is to "scoff" at, is your arrogance. You approached this topic the wrong way. You could have started a good discussion had you been polite...

But instead you ranted at a non-existent ideal. I haven't seen anyone around here create a post that read "Hey guys look at my 5 million fans!!!"

You mentioned that people got mad at your "opinion". Well you didn't treat it as your opinion. You treated it as HARD FACT. You acted like everyone else was a bunch of inexperienced morons who had never actually built a computer. You acted like no one but you understood "common physics". Not a good way to go about discussing something.

How about this instead...

"From my experience, case fans do nothing to help heat. Here are the numbers I got... What do you guys think?"

Rather than start yelling at everyone from the get-go.

 

[MrFace]

Originally posted by jpmkm
If you brought some fresh air in the case instead of letting the air stagnate then maybe they wouldn't get so hot. I don't understand why that is so hard for you to understand. Fans just move air around, which draws heat away. They don't just magically make things cold. What good does it do to blow hot air at something?

Where is this "hot air" coming from exactly?

My computer case has little holes that came in it so that air can freely move in and out of my case.

The fans blow the 'ambient' air onto the processor and the air from the processor is displaced and the air is recycled naturally. I dont get what's so difficul to understand.

 

[Spewn]

Originally posted by MrFace
Where is this "hot air" coming from exactly?

My computer case has little holes that came in it so that air can freely move in and out of my case.

The fans blow the 'ambient' air onto the processor and the air from the processor is displaced and the air is recycled naturally. I dont get what's so difficul to understand.

You still have yet to respond to my queries about how long you actually let your processor sit at idle, OR about what the temperature is *outside* of your computer case. That aside...

Hot air rises, that's pretty basic right? I would assume then, that you have lots of holes in the bottom and top of your case, correct? This would allow for some convection to take place(although not *much*). Otherwise, you're not making any sense. The cpu fan blows air onto the heatsink, this air flows past the heatsink fins, and out into the case where it(I would imagine) billows around etc. With no case fans forcing that hot air out, or forcing cooler outside air in, where does that air go? Sure, SOME of it goes out the little holes, but what about the rest? Run your system at full load using prime 95 for a few *hours*, not minutes, and see what your case/cpu temps look like.

 

[rogue_jedi]

however, it is more efficient if you have case fans helping the natural circulation of the air.

i have a total of 5 fans "in" my computer: 80mm x2 in the psu, 40mm on the video card, 40mm on the northbridge, and 70mm blowing air over the whole thing. i watercool now and i also have my motherboard sitting on my desk (that's why i put 'in' in quotes)

the two 40mm fans make more noise than the rest of the machine put together. when i get around to making waterblocks for NB/VID, the number will actually stay the same because by then i'll have a radiator.

fans help. you may not NEED many, but they still help.

 

[jpmkm]

Originally posted by MrFace
Where is this "hot air" coming from exactly?

My computer case has little holes that came in it so that air can freely move in and out of my case.

The fans blow the 'ambient' air onto the processor and the air from the processor is displaced and the air is recycled naturally. I dont get what's so difficul to understand.

Yes, air can move freely in and out of the holes if something pushes it. Do you think the magical elves draw in the fresh air? There is so much stuff and so many obstructions in a computer and the temperature differential is so small that convection simply WILL NOT draw enough fresh air into the computer to do anything. You are simply wrong. I have no problem with you being ignorant, but I do have a problem with you coming in here and talking about stuff that you obviously do not know about and trying to pass it off as fact. You are not convincing anybody of your bullshit thermodynamics. I have had physics classes and I understand heat transfer. You do not. People around here have been building computers for years. We know what we are talking about. Do you think we are arguing with you for fun? We are trying to tell you how it is. If you will not listen to us then you will never learn. I really do not care if you ever learn so I am done with this thread and I hope it gets locked before you make even more of an ass of yourself.

 

[BigGreg85]

OUCH!....i just took Mr. Faces word...and tried disconnecting all of my fans(5 total)....(I covered the fanse with tap, since the holes would normally not be there if a fan wasnt there...and i just watch my Asus Probe rise.....i eventually plugged in a few fans once my idel temp reached close to 45C

 

[MrFace]

Originally posted by BigGreg85
OUCH!....i just took Mr. Faces word...and tried disconnecting all of my fans(5 total)....(I covered the fanse with tap, since the holes would normally not be there if a fan wasnt there...and i just watch my Asus Probe rise.....i eventually plugged in a few fans once my idel temp reached close to 45C

I never said I didn't use fans, please read.

To the above posts.

1. I have already posted my room temps. Mid to high 60's.
2. I"ll run prime overnight if it really makes you sleep better.
3. If my two fans are supposedly not enough, then how come I have an idle temp of 28C? Is it because of the "hack" that I did to make the processor run a LOT cooler? Could be. I could also say that before the "hack" my computer ran a good 9 degrees hotter for idle temp.

 

[jpmkm]

Okay guy, nobody fucking cares about idle temps. My wristwatch probably fucking idles at 28 degrees. When a processor is idling it is just running noops through, which takes no processing power whatsoever, and therefore puts off very little heat. Please run your processor at full load overnight with the side of the case on.

 

[Bananadog]

first let me see if i get this right, you have a case, with holes in it so air can meander in, then you have those 2 fans one blowing on the cpu and the other blowing on your hotspot.... both are blowing onto their respective uh places, this hotair that is dissipated will venture out of the HS and end up in the case, from the looks of the pic, i can see not holes this air could go directly out of. Thus, you get this hot air mixing around with the air coming off your vid card, HDs, etc, and it get's blown back onto the.... you know what let me get to the point. This air isn't going to just dissipate without any help from fans, it'll be circulated in the case, but it won't be 20ish degrees.... it'll be closer to what your processer is running at.

Originally posted by kronchev
you know, ive been up for 2 days puking and pissing out my ass so im in no shape to prove you dumb. however, what case are you using that lets you have such temps?

how do you piss out your ass, i'm starting to get tubgirl memories back, that i thought were long gone, ugh... but anyhow, maybe this thread needs to be closed.

 

[d34dly]

I am not a mod, but I think it has potential (the thread I mean).




At least we're still on topic... which doesn't usually occur.

 

[Spewn]

Originally posted by MrFace
I never said I didn't use fans, please read.

To the above posts.

1. I have already posted my room temps. Mid to high 60's.
2. I"ll run prime overnight if it really makes you sleep better.
3. If my two fans are supposedly not enough, then how come I have an idle temp of 28C? Is it because of the "hack" that I did to make the processor run a LOT cooler? Could be. I could also say that before the "hack" my computer ran a good 9 degrees hotter for idle temp.

Mid to high 60's eh? "mid" 60's(~64 or so) would put your ambient temperature outside your case at 18'C. "high" 60's would be what, 67-68? That would be ~20'C. Care to explain how you get your computer case colder than the rest of the room?

 

[ocphangaz]

To Mr. Face,

from your tests, i've found that you ran ONLY 10Sec test, and your TEMP shoots up 20C ABOVE ambient ( board) temp!

and you said it is enough? you're living in an environment of 18C-20C, which is considered cooling place compared to my torpical country of with mid 80F to high 80F (28C-32C), thus your proc can run much much cooler....

i'm using only 60mm fan capable of pushing 48CFM for my proc, and 2 120mm for casing (intake and exhaust)

 

[MrFace]

I ran for way more than 10 seconds...It goes for about 2-3 minutes of straight testing.

My mobo temp reading is 19C right now, which you said is low 60's. Now let's think...If I have a fan...blowing air onto a mobo, in a cold room, wouldn't you think the mobo would kinda get cold from the air?

 

[d34dly]

Originally posted by MrFace
I ran for way more than 10 seconds...It goes for about 2-3 minutes of straight testing.

My mobo temp reading is 19C right now, which you said is low 60's. Now let's think...If I have a fan...blowing air onto a mobo, in a cold room, wouldn't you think the mobo would kinda get cold from the air?

OK... now I gotta say something...

2-3 minutes of straight testing? I am trying really hard to refrain from using sarcasm, so I'll be nice.


Do you REALLY think that 2-3 minutes of testing accurately reflects what... we'll say... 2-3 hours might? I am not trying to prove you wrong here, just your method of testing.

IN MY OPINION (lowly college student), 2-3 minutes means JACK.

Who does any amount of REAL work in 2-3 minutes?

All I am saying is that your numbers might be more valid if you:

1) Extend the testing time to a signifigant amount.
2) Performed the test several times to rule out any flukes.
3) Showed everyone the results with some pictures, and maybe explain what happened in detail.

So far all anyone has seen is a blurry picture of your CPU fan, and some cropped images of Sandra. I think the people around here need something more.

 

[freeloader1969]

I agree with him on principle. My neighbour must have atleast 8-10 fans in his system and it sounds absolutely horrible. Honest to God, it sounds like a constant running vaccum cleaner. We have identical cases. I have absolutely no fans except the video card fan, cpu fan and PSU fans (dual fan, Antec Truepower 430). No additional intake or exhaust fans. My system is uber quiet and I'm not even running the "Cool and Quiet" feature of my Athlon 64/motherboard. These temperatures are with an ambient of about 75 deg F.

Full load...

Idle...

For comparison sake, my neighbour's case is about 31 deg C with an ambient of approximately 75 deg F as well. His processor runs about 34 idle and approximately 42 full load and his case temperature barely ever goes above 35 deg C. For me anyhow, the quietness is well worth the few extra degrees of heat!

 

[BrainC0DE]

Originally posted by Stiletto One

6. You're an idiot.

Did I miss anything?

nope.. looks good to me.

 

[Cardboard Hammer]

Originally posted by MrFace
You guys don't get it.

You do NOT need a million case fans.

No fucking shit? Well, I guess I can return 999,999 case fans.

Originally posted by MrFace
I don't use one, and my temps are as good, or better than people who DO use them.

Did it ever occur to you that it might be because you don't do shit and you're in a cold room?

Originally posted by MrFace
I'm "idling" at 29C right now. Let me get my "load temps for you guys". Be back in a few...

 

[Spewn]

Originally posted by MrFace
I ran for way more than 10 seconds...It goes for about 2-3 minutes of straight testing.

My mobo temp reading is 19C right now, which you said is low 60's. Now let's think...If I have a fan...blowing air onto a mobo, in a cold room, wouldn't you think the mobo would kinda get cold from the air?

Finally, admission of the length of testing you did! Yay!

Running 3dmark 2001SE in demo mode for HOURS, my cpu reads "100%" utilisation, however, my temps are consistently about 2'C colder than if I run prime95 for a similar length of time(or at least for long enough to heat the processor up to it's maximum temperature).

Go download prime95, and run the torture test. Simultaneously, run some kind of graphics benchmark. After 2-3 hours, see what your case/cpu temps are like.

 

[wonderboy]

Brillant read this one
I think I have to admit that you do indeed need case fans to keep your system cooler.
Running your prime for 2-3 mins is like browsing the web for about an hour
You are 21 after all so I think we can forgive him

Can't wait to see the pics of your temps when your cpu has been primeing it all night

ps: your psu has a fan in it as well

 

[Stiletto One]

Originally posted by freeloader1969
For comparison sake, my neighbour's case is about 31 deg C with an ambient of approximately 75 deg F as well. His processor runs about 34 idle and approximately 42 full load and his case temperature barely ever goes above 35 deg C. For me anyhow, the quietness is well worth the few extra degrees of heat!

Hmm. I would get a couple of nice quiet case fans (Panaflo L1As, or maybe some undervolted faster fans), one intake and one exhaust, just for peace of mind.

It's REAL easy to over-fan the Chenming 710 chassis (that's what the SX1000, Chieftec DX/MX, Enermax 710, etc. etc. are built around), but then again, you're just being scary. Nice, though.

 

[amohedas]

Ok firstly I can't believe that I spent 30 minutes reading this entire thread. Man i spend way too much time at [Hard]...ie physics homework doesnt get done.

Anyway you have a HSF and another fan blowing air onto the mosfets. Now you say that the CPU and mosfets are cooled by the cool air in the room. You also mention that there are small holes at the bottom of your case that let air in. This is true but only to a very very small degree. And is basically limited to the amount of hot air rising and exiting the case from other holes. This can in no way match the amount of air that fans move even undervolted uber-quiet fans. So I am basically going to dismiss the fact that those holes are even there.

Another key point to be made is that perhaps the temperature readings that you are getting are not accurate. Unless you have a thermal probe situated correctly inside the case, and under your CPU you cannot be certain of your temperature readings, period.

Another fact is that you still havenot shown pics of priming for many hours with cpu at full load and temp readings from MBM or whatever.

Show us all that, we will all congradulate you on your super cool fanless temps, and finally end this thread.

~Maybe you should write a how to article`

 

[freeloader1969]

Just two tips I'd like to share with everyone here seeing how I have no intake/exhaust fans (except the PSU fan of course) and achieve reasonably decent CPU/case temperatures. If you're able to, move your harddrive(s) up to the 5 1/4 inch bays with HD rail adaptors. 7200 rpm drives dump a tonne of heat into the case, the closer they are to the top of the case, the cooler the bottom of the case will be (less heat on video card and cpu). Also, if you can afford it, grab a PSU that has two fans.

Can someone tell me what fan would be quieter, the Vantec Stealth fan or the Panaflo L1As? Also, I've seen a few guys run fans at 7volts, does anyone have a link to a 7v mod? I'm quite happy with my case/cpu temps, but if I could drop a few degrees without increasing noise, that'd be good.

 

[ocphangaz]

Now Mr Face is worrying about borad being to cold!

No matter how much fan you put, you cannot go below the ambient temp unless you go to peltz

next thing we see a sticky thread with "Am I too COLD!?"

 

[frag85]

really, who cares.


but as proof...

if you're not oc'ing, or doing stressfull stuff (i.e. chatting on AIM and using IE explorer, lol) then u don't need many fans. personally, i have a switch so i have all, 1 or none, when i'm just doing stressfull stuff like AIM and IE explorer, i have 1 or none on.

when i need to encode video, OC, or decide to play video games for a few hours i switch on 5 case fans. it lowers my case and CPU by 15C at idle (to around 27C)and under load its lowered by 15C (to around 44C).

1 fan is enough to drop everything down 7-10C.
P.S. if dirty air is going in, put a filter, my case has a filter, after 2 months w/out cleaning the filter, "dust" effects the airflow so much my temps are about 3C warmer w/ all case fans on. and after 8 months with this computer(1 month w/ fan switch), the inside of the case is spotless, all i do is clean the filter.

 

[cambio]

I'm sitting here at work with coffee in hand checking out the thread from last night and somehow reached the end without being tempted to chastise MrFace with more menacing posts. Jobs been done well enough. It's just amazing how this guy incenses people.

Then all of a sudden as I gazed over at my Antec SX 600II series, the noise from the whirl of three 80mm case fans, one 80mm fan sitting on top of the heatsink, and that from the power supply almost became deafening. Funny how it never bothered me before. It occurred to me that at work I don't encode music, nor do I play Gun metal and I don't really care if my processor runs ten degrees hotter. The machine is more stable than any I've ever had, even with six or seven programs running. So I'm yanking out two case fans and am going to turn down the rpms on the heatsink fan and go for a bit of peace and quiet.

Before I pull them..Lets see, it's nice and cozy in here with a room temp of 72 and a CPU temp of 45 degrees. I’ll initiate Prime 95 for a while and see how high she pops.....53, not too bad.

Now the two 80mm fans are gone and the 80mm on the CPU is turned down to 2136rpm

46 at idle and 54 running Prime 95! Not bad, just a 1 degree change.

Only problem, it's too quiet-- now I gotta listen to the hum of the florescents. Screw this, I'm hooking the fans back up man!

 

[mwarps]

Originally posted by MrFace
Two fans compared to 4-5 fans....I used my brains to realize "Hmmm, MOSFETS get pretty hot. Hmm it's right next to the processor. Hmmm, looks like THIS AREA IS WHAT ACTUALLY NEEDS COOLING!!!"

Thanks kiddo.

The MOSFETs are on the other side of the processor.

*blink*

Why am I even wasting my time?!