Was sent damaged motherboard

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lunacite said:
This was your first post:

responses follow:
1. What you are to do next is try configuring/updating everything before complaining that the board is broken.
2. Yes, right now you are being unreasonable.
3. When you ask for help it's usually better to accept what's offered before becoming stubborn in your ignorance.
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Quoted for truth. Why dont you stop ignoring everyone here and do a clean install of win2k and update the bios? If that doesnt work then I could understand your complaint, but dont jump to conclusions before you do that.

Btw, I along with newegg and alot of major retailers ship motherboards like that all the time. Newegg always ships motherboards in a fedex flat box, much like the usps flat box. Ive never had a problem, and Im guessing newegg doesnt either.

However there is cosmetic damage to the board; I could understand your discontent. However motherboard manufacturers never put traces around corner mounting boards. Test the board out fully before you put ice on on a stake. Assuming the motherboard works, maybe a small refund on the order of 5 bucks would be good?

-Steve
 
slamgoku said:
But did u wipe the harddrive clean and put a fresh os install on it? fuck ur stuff on the harddrive. wipe it clean before u say the board doesnt work.
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Dude, watch your language!! And as I already said in my post with the pics, I already redid everything.
 
ss284 said:
Quoted for truth. Why dont you stop ignoring everyone here and do a clean install of win2k and update the bios? If that doesnt work then I could understand your complaint, but dont jump to conclusions before you do that.

Btw, I along with newegg and alot of major retailers ship motherboards like that all the time. Newegg always ships motherboards in a fedex flat box, much like the usps flat box. Ive never had a problem, and Im guessing newegg doesnt either.

However there is cosmetic damage to the board; I could understand your discontent. However motherboard manufacturers never put traces around corner mounting boards. Test the board out fully before you put ice on on a stake. Assuming the motherboard works, maybe a small refund on the order of 5 bucks would be good?

-Steve
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I am not ignoring people here!! How many times do I have to say that I have redone the OS until I am blue in the face, along with the BIOS!! This board was sent bad, and that is it!
 
DJStillman said:
I am not ignoring people here!! How many times do I have to say that I have redone the OS until I am blue in the face, along with the BIOS!! This board was sent bad, and that is it!
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OK, NOW that it is clear DJStilman has said he has done everyones' suggestions, and the board is STILL "bad" , what do you folks say now?.......
 
i agree that the seller should have notified the buyer about the damage before he shipped it. i, for one, would be rather pissed if i recieved something that was damaged (ESPECIALLY SOMETHING AS FRAGILE AS A COMPUTER COMPONENT!!!). the buyer has also stated that he has tried everything in his power to make the board work and it still doesnt.

the seller should have to pay all costs related to the refund...including shipping
 
if he tested the motherboard or not it arrived in a condition that was not what was like it should be
 
so he did update the bios? doesn't sound like it to me

I am not ignoring people here!! How many times do I have to say that I have redone the OS until I am blue in the face, along with the BIOS!! This board was sent bad, and that is it!
Click to expand...
 
SN4p said:
i agree that the seller should have notified the buyer about the damage before he shipped it. i, for one, would be rather pissed if i recieved something that was damaged (ESPECIALLY SOMETHING AS FRAGILE AS A COMPUTER COMPONENT!!!). the buyer has also stated that he has tried everything in his power to make the board work and it still doesnt.

the seller should have to pay all costs related to the refund...including shipping
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This is becoming a 'He said-She said' thing. Seller says it worked for months with the damage, buyer says it doesn't. Only way to truly know is to get buyer and seller together. Seller attempts to boot mobo with same components used when he says it worked. Buyer then attempts to install motherboard in the system with which he's having trouble. Then issues such as differences between hardware sets could be compared.

This does not take into account any possible damage incurred during shipping.


Does a DXDIAG log adequately identify the components running in a computer? If so, maybe a dxdiag could be sent before sale is final, to prove components in question actually work.

When I worked for Mobil B&P, loads were photographed upon completion, before blocking (securing which would obscure contents from photo) and after blocking.A copy of each photo was kept with the order at Mobil, and another copy of each photo was sent along with the sales order to cutomer. If a customer called and cried 'Damage' to goods received, we had photo proof that it left there in good shape.

Maybe something similar could be done for PC hardware.
 
No it doesn't as far as I know. 3dmark is a good stress test though. It identifies the major components but not the smaller ones. Anyway I wanna know if he actually updated the bios. I don't give a crap about the settings. It needs to be flashed with a new version, not reset to default settings.
 
DJStillman said:
....once I found some settings the board liked, I got into Windows (2k, by the way). Once there, I ran several benchmarks, and they took forever, and the results were about 1/4 of what they should have been.
Click to expand...

Mind elaborating on what these mystery settings are?
 
Even if that board was working 100% stable, the seller should accept a return and cover shipping because he knew about the damage and the buyer did not. A bent/fractured portion on a motherboard is not something to overlook in a sellers description, and working or not, I wouldn't want it in my machine.

This isn't a whole lot of money, it's the principle.

(1)If you notice an item has defects while you are packing it, don't try and slide it by on someone and hope they don't complain.

(2)Don't blow your Paypal account at the bar before you recieved positive HEAT from all trades you are in.
 
Now he says all avenues have been explored...


The initial issue was that he wanted a refund of BOTH shipping costs one to have the item delivered to him and another to return the board to me.
He didn't do any troubleshooting before crying troll. "DJStillman" made this an issue even before it was one.
"DJStillman" jumped the gun to give negative comments in this thread, and who knows where else (heat) - - - before doing any troubleshooting. It says so in this thread.

How many businesses refund shipping costs paid to the courier to have an item delivered to the customer?

This was not a cost I benefited from.

He paid $26.50 for the board. He paid $8.50 for USPS 2-day shipping to have the item delivered.
He wanted me to give him a refund of $43.50 when he returned the board.

He sent the first PM stating that he wanted to return the board because he did not like it, not because he did any troubleshooting to determine that the board did not seem to work.

The chip is cosmetic and like I stated in the PM's to him - IT DOES NOT AFFECT ANY CIRCUITRY OR PERFORMANCE.
I stated in a PM to him before this thread began that I would refund ALL shipping costs if he could prove that the chip broke any of the board's circuits, thereby affecting performance.

This has been such a PITA from the start (even before "DJStillman" did any troubleshooting).


ICEMOCHALATTE
 
icemochalatte said:
Now he says all avenues have been explored...


The initial issue was that he wanted a refund of BOTH shipping costs one to have the item delivered to him and another to return the board to me.
He didn't do any troubleshooting before crying troll. "DJStillman" made this an issue even before it was one.
"DJStillman" jumped the gun to give negative comments in this thread, and who knows where else (heat) - - - before doing any troubleshooting. It says so in this thread.

How many businesses refund shipping costs paid to the courier to have an item delivered to the customer?

This was not a cost I benefited from.

He paid $26.50 for the board. He paid $8.50 for USPS 2-day shipping to have the item delivered.
He wanted me to give him a refund of $43.50 when he returned the board.

He sent the first PM stating that he wanted to return the board because he did not like it, not because he did any troubleshooting to determine that the board did not seem to work.

The chip is cosmetic and like I stated in the PM's to him - IT DOES NOT AFFECT ANY CIRCUITRY OR PERFORMANCE.
I stated in a PM to him before this thread began that I would refund ALL shipping costs if he could prove that the chip broke any of the board's circuits, thereby affecting performance.

This has been such a PITA from the start (even before "DJStillman" did any troubleshooting).


ICEMOCHALATTE
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Well, now you've gone and done it. I was being patient, but I will not BE LIED ABOUT. (See Underlined, bold, italic, teal portion of Icemochalatte's quote)

For those reading, the original PM to the seller, Icemochalatte, upon learning the issues with the board:

Originally Posted by DJStillman
Well, I received the board today. I pulled it out, and there was a chip out of one corner of the board, and the edge was bent. The chip was clearly existing, because there was not piece loose in the box, and there was dirt in the white exposed edge. Since it was at the edge, I thought I would try it. While the computer would boot (all other parts verified working up until the point of old motherboard removal, minutes before new went in), nothing would work right, I would get bsods, it was dead slow at all speed combinations, the bios kept resetting, and once I got it into windows, it benched at 1/4 of what it should have, regardless of settings.

Since it does not work properly, and arrived with preexisting damage, I would like to return it, and receive a full refund with return shipping. Had this been shipping damage, I would be more understanding. And it is impressive that this damage did not occur while shipping, given the fact that there was virtually NO packing buffer anywhere.

I await your reply.

David
Click to expand...

At this point, it seems like you are desparate to keep changing the game. BTW, you are not a business, so quit trying to pretend. You knowingly sent a damaged item. That's fraud when the board is supposed to be in "good condition". Nothing is going to change that. That is why I expect full refund plus return shipping.

And for the record, I had already done a great deal of troubleshooting, as I state in my quote.
 
Is the board able to be RMAed? If it is I'd say that DJ should do what he would have done if a new board came like that, send it back to MSI and get a new one.


Oh, and I'll say this again


DJStillman said:
....once I found some settings the board liked, I got into Windows (2k, by the way). Once there, I ran several benchmarks, and they took forever, and the results were about 1/4 of what they should have been.
Click to expand...

Mind elaborating on what these mystery settings are?
 
lunacite said:
Is the board able to be RMAed? If it is I'd say that DJ should do what he would have done if a new board came like that, send it back to MSI and get a new one.


Oh, and I'll say this again




Mind elaborating on what these mystery settings are?
Click to expand...

You think MSI is going to replace a board with bent off corner like that ? Highly unlikely.
 
i see a number of issues, some proven, some conjecture

board was sent with damage. seller claims cosmetic. nevertheless, this should have been disclosed. the comment "i didnot notice it till the last second" seems fishy, and is irrelvant. take a picture, send it to the buyer and see if he still wants it. man up, and lose the sale if thats what it takes.

buyer, jumps on the troll wagon way to early. maybe hes ripping you, maybe not. yes, id be pissed about the damaged corner too. but the seller claims the board worked ok. your responses to suggestions on trying to get the board to work are lacking in detail and suggest a lack of thoroughness.

packaging? hard to know what it was originally like. mobos are fragile, and need to be shipped in their original box, and then with some foam or other material and an external box. anything else is a risk. I dock the seller on this one. yeah, maybe it works in the past, but just having a mobo sitting in a box don't cut it.

how to solve this amicabally? my suggestion is buyer pay return shipping, seller refund purchase. both lose out a little. but thems the breaks. at least the two of you can go away not hating each other.
 
lunacite said:
Is the board able to be RMAed? If it is I'd say that DJ should do what he would have done if a new board came like that, send it back to MSI and get a new one.


Oh, and I'll say this again




Mind elaborating on what these mystery settings are?
Click to expand...
3-4-4-7 on BH5, 400MHz fsb, forced 266 memory bus, vlink off, AGP fastwrites off, and probably a few other settings I don't remember.
 
Steel Chicken said:
i see a number of issues, some proven, some conjecture

board was sent with damage. seller claims cosmetic. nevertheless, this should have been disclosed. the comment "i didnot notice it till the last second" seems fishy, and is irrelvant. take a picture, send it to the buyer and see if he still wants it. man up, and lose the sale if thats what it takes.

buyer, jumps on the troll wagon way to early. maybe hes ripping you, maybe not. yes, id be pissed about the damaged corner too. but the seller claims the board worked ok. your responses to suggestions on trying to get the board to work are lacking in detail and suggest a lack of thoroughness.

packaging? hard to know what it was originally like. mobos are fragile, and need to be shipped in their original box, and then with some foam or other material and an external box. anything else is a risk. I dock the seller on this one. yeah, maybe it works in the past, but just having a mobo sitting in a box don't cut it.

how to solve this amicabally? my suggestion is buyer pay return shipping, seller refund purchase. both lose out a little. but thems the breaks. at least the two of you can go away not hating each other.
Click to expand...

$26.50 = exact cost for the board paid by "DJStillman".

$8.50 = exact amount paid to USPS for shipping by "DJStillman".

$8.50 = exact cost for return USPS shipping by "icemochalatte".


My original refund offer to "DJStillman" was for $35.00.


ICEMOCHALATTE
 
icemochalatte said:
$26.50 = exact cost for the board paid by "DJStillman".

$8.50 = exact amount paid to USPS for shipping by "DJStillman".

$8.50 = exact cost for return USPS shipping by "icemochalatte".


My original refund offer to "DJStillman" was for $35.00.


ICEMOCHALATTE
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Dude, you are seriously digging yourself a hole with your lies...

Again, for our readers:

Originally Posted by icemochalatte
There was an extra sheet of foam padding in the
box that I pulled from another box I had laying around - 2x the
normal padding in a motherboard box (one below the board
and another directly on top of the board).
I have received numerous motherboards in the same size/type
of box, whether FedEx or USPS, they always worked. The
motherboard box and its contents would not have been
compromised.

Ship it back the same way, that is fine, but I can only refund
the original $35 minus the actual shipping cost it cost to ship
it to you = ~$8.50. I will have to look at the receipt when I get
home. The chip was only noticed a few minutes before
shipping the board out. Chip on the corner or not, the board
worked before I pulled the processor, vid card & memory off,
unscrewed it from its case and sent it to you.
I sold a working board from a computer I parted out; my intent was not to screw you over.

Regards,

Chris
Click to expand...
 
Ok, at this point this seems like something you two need to resolve via PM and not in this thread. The next post by either one of you here should be regarding the result.
 
lunacite said:
Ok, at this point this seems like something you two need to resolve via PM and not in this thread. The next post by either one of you here should be regarding the result.
Click to expand...

Amen to that.
 
Well if he is lying and is just posting the refund for everyone to see cuz he can...how bout you take up the refund offer and let this die. I'm pretty sure if he posts a price for a refund for everyone to see, it doesn't mean its for shits and giggles. Take the refund and let it die. This doesn't need to drag on. If you're gonna insist on calling him a liar and a troll then you might as well forget the refund offer keep the damn board to be miserable with. lol
 
icemochalatte said:
$26.50 = exact cost for the board paid by "DJStillman".

$8.50 = exact amount paid to USPS for shipping by "DJStillman".

$8.50 = exact cost for return USPS shipping by "icemochalatte".

My original refund offer to "DJStillman" was for $35.00.


ICEMOCHALATTE
Click to expand...

The refund total is for $35 either way the shipping is quoted; the above quoted post was supposed to clear that up. Reverse the order of shipping then...

$26.50 = exact cost for the board paid by "DJStillman".

$8.50 = exact amount paid to USPS for shipping by "icemochalatte".
- - - - -reversed - - - - -
$8.50 = exact cost for return USPS shipping by "DJStillman".

My original refund offer to "DJStillman" was for $35.00.


ICEMOCHALATTE
 
i agree with the above posters...take the frickin refund

he was wrong to send the board damaged, but give the guy a break...hes tryin to work with you and you are being a dick about it
 
SN4p said:
i agree with the above posters...take the frickin refund

he was wrong to send the board damaged, but give the guy a break...hes tryin to work with you and you are being a dick about it
Click to expand...

I would have been much more willing to work with him (either by splitting shipping cost or by eating it all) if it weren't for the quick trolling.

"DJStillman" received the board in the mail Thursday 3/31, and called me a troll on Friday 4/1.
I offered a full $35 refund that same Thursday 3/31, he would just have to get it back to me (& pay for shipping) before I send the refund.


My issue was that there was not way there had been any real troubleshooting done in that short time. I assured him that the board did work perfectly in my case, even with the chip taken from the corner of the board (common (-), not on ANY traces). I told him that my intent was not to screw him over. The board's stability was not compromised by that chip out of the (-); it did not cut any traces.

I believe that the thread was started with ornamental details by someone unwilling to work with me.


ICEMOCHALATTE
 
SN4p said:
i agree with the above posters...take the frickin refund

he was wrong to send the board damaged, but give the guy a break...hes tryin to work with you and you are being a dick about it
Click to expand...


Give him a break ? Lets get this right:

1) He ships out a motherboard that has a major flaw, that he knew of before shipping it.

2) He packs the accessories loose on top of the board with 1/8 of foam for "maximum" protection.

3) He expects the buyer to "work with it" because the snapped off corner couldn't cause any issues.

The bottom line is this. Regardless of if it were a $5 board or a $500 board, working or not working, that busted up corner the seller knew about and didn't disclose to the seller should void this deal, and the return cost should be on the seller, becuase plainly, it's his fault.

You guys are gonna tell me that you buy a 20" LCD and it shows up with a busted corner with out knowing about it, but no dead pixels and the screen works, so you are just going to suck it up ? Hell NO ! Your gonna want your money back and you will be damned if you are gonna cover the return shipping. You are gonna be pissed that you have to pack the damn thing up and haul it back to the shipper.
 
Randy2 said:
Give him a break ? Lets get this right:

1) He ships out a motherboard that has a major flaw, that he knew of before shipping it.

2) He packs the accessories loose on top of the board with 1/8 of foam for "maximum" protection.

3) He expects the buyer to "work with it" because the snapped off corner couldn't cause any issues.

The bottom line is this. Regardless of if it were a $5 board or a $500 board, working or not working, that busted up corner the seller knew about and didn't disclose to the seller should void this deal, and the return cost should be on the seller, becuase plainly, it's his fault.

You guys are gonna tell me that you buy a 20" LCD and it shows up with a busted corner with out knowing about it, but no dead pixels and the screen works, so you are just going to suck it up ? Hell NO ! Your gonna want your money back and you will be damned if you are gonna cover the return shipping. You are gonna be pissed that you have to pack the damn thing up and haul it back to the shipper.
Click to expand...


Yep I totally agree.. Most people would get their money back ASAP and bitch along the way... "If it's not happening to you, it's not your problem"
 
Then if he offered a refund, what the fuck are we arguing about? lol

TAKE THE REFUND
 
markt435 said:
Then if he offered a refund, what the fuck are we arguing about? lol

TAKE THE REFUND
Click to expand...

they meant refund INCLUDING the cost to ship back........

I think becuase the damage wasn't disclosed (even if that isn't responsible for problems) and that the packing seems questionable, the seller ought to eat the return cost as well.

I think that while DJStillman did get his panties twisted a bit too tight, too fast, he DID have a legit beef.

If I was seller I'd Offer refund PLUS the cost to ship back, and tell myself: "dumbass, I knew I shouda' told him about the chip when I seen it"........but that's becuase I care about my trade rep. It's up to ice what he does, and refund not including what it cost to send back is better then nothing, it's still shy of the right thing.

ice: If only you'd let DJ know about the damage before you sent it dude, this could have been avoided....... :eek:

ALSO: for both of you guys, it would be better to drop the issue of who is lying about who said what at what time. Focus on what seems to be the only unresolved issue: whether ice will pay for the cost to return the motherboard back to him. He has agreed to pay for the orginal amount paid to him in return for the mobo, just at this point he does not want to reimburse DJ for shipping back to him. Hopefully we can stay on that issue and get it resolved........

icemochalatte said:
I would have been much more willing to work with him (either by splitting shipping cost or by eating it all) if it weren't for the quick trolling.........
Click to expand...

dude if at some point you was willing to pay for the return shipping, why didn't you? Even if he was too quick to call troll you just handed him more ammo by refusing on the grounds that ".....if it weren't for the quick trolling" - you coulda came out way ahead by paying for it, and you could always have pointed at what an ass DJ made of himself by screaming troll when you did the right thing......and chances are if you had done that DJ would have immediately backed off the troll calling, and might have even apoligized to you - I've seen it happen, more theen once.........
 
This thread has convinced me to never again sell any of my used crap. I'll throw it away before I take the chance of getting sucked into a nightmare like this.
 
Cardinal Fang said:
This thread has convinced me to never again sell any of my used crap. I'll throw it away before I take the chance of getting sucked into a nightmare like this.
Click to expand...

if you fully disclose all issues, and pack properly, chances are you won't have any problems ;)
 
they gave me a defective farcry game with it i was forced to pay shipping cost to send BFG my farcry and receive a new one, which i havent yet after a few weeks of waiting. I had to pay cash to RMA my MSI board too as well. Point being, if these big companies dont pay for me to ship it, this small guy like ice shouldn't either.
 
Randy2 said:
Give him a break ? Lets get this right:

1) He ships out a motherboard that has a major flaw, that he knew of before shipping it.

2) He packs the accessories loose on top of the board with 1/8 of foam for "maximum" protection.

3) He expects the buyer to "work with it" because the snapped off corner couldn't cause any issues.

The bottom line is this. Regardless of if it were a $5 board or a $500 board, working or not working, that busted up corner the seller knew about and didn't disclose to the seller should void this deal, and the return cost should be on the seller, becuase plainly, it's his fault.

You guys are gonna tell me that you buy a 20" LCD and it shows up with a busted corner with out knowing about it, but no dead pixels and the screen works, so you are just going to suck it up ? Hell NO ! Your gonna want your money back and you will be damned if you are gonna cover the return shipping. You are gonna be pissed that you have to pack the damn thing up and haul it back to the shipper.
Click to expand...

Your analogy is flawed. Lets say the 20 lcd is used, and theres a scratch on the frame. Seller tells you it works. You bring it home and have problems. Can that cosmetic scratch cause the problems you describe? Is the seller a liar for saying it worked, if it did indeed work?

According to seller, its cosmetic, and the board worked when he had it. The buyer has admitted to installation difficulty ( I believe he tried to install it on an existing install of Win 2K) and then trying the solutions offered by seller. Seller says it worked for him, buyer says he has problems. No two PC setups are identical, and no warranty was expressed or implied. The buyer purchased a used motherboard. Old saying- Buyer Beware. Used equipment cannot be guaranteed to work in every system. We have no reason to believe that seller is LYING when he says it worked for him for months. We have a conflicting report of packaging- seller says it was packed properly, buyer says it wasn't. Unless photo proof is offered to support claims of improper packaging, we have to accept sellers word it was packed right. He stood to gain a whopping $35.00 from this- not much motivation for dishonesty.

Not only that, but instead of taking up sellers offer for remuneration, buyer continues to defame seller, making unfounded claims, with the seemingly express purpose of impugning and damaging sellers reputation on this board.

DJStillman wrote:
'Dude, you are seriously digging yourself a hole with your lies...'

Ice, how many items do you sell in forums each year? How much income would be lost if you were labeled a bad trader? X per year times X many years ?

Icemocha, you are now in a very powerful position.
 
slamgoku said:
they gave me a defective farcry game with it i was forced to pay shipping cost to send BFG my farcry and receive a new one, which i havent yet after a few weeks of waiting. I had to pay cash to RMA my MSI board too as well. Point being, if these big companies dont pay for me to ship it, this small guy like ice shouldn't either.
Click to expand...


there are companies that do pay for cost of return shipping, so just the few you list who don't doesn't really impress me. And how do you figure that becuase "a big company doesn't, neither should he" ? I mean why do you think a single person on a FS/T trade board should have the same return policy as (some) corparate companies?
 
MAngelo: No one is gonna be suing anyone. Its ridiculous. I dunno how many times we have to tell you that. I'm telling you that again because you're telling him he is in a "very powerful" position. As I said before, everyone would be suing each other that uses intarweb forums. You know how much flaming that goes on? Tons and tons. Its no different here. Just because he had some sale with him makes it no different then the flame wars that take place over AMD v. Intel. Please stop advising him to sue over something so stupid. We're talking about $35 worth of merch...
 
I'm not advising him to sue. What I see here is a forum siding with the buyer by telling the seller to refund, for satisfaction. I'm saying seller owes buyer nothing, court of public opinion be damned. This section is too often used to scream 'TROLL' way too fast. So, I'm lending moral support (and any other needed) to see that the seller, Ice, is not bullied into a decision.

Seller says it worked. Buyer says it doesn't. You all are saying ' Refund his money and undo the deal.' BUT, this does not cover, for the original seller, his hardware in terms of: possible damage during shipment, nor damage done by buyer in attempting to install. In short, the deal is UN un-doable. We can't just give back the money and return the card and we're back at square one. So another solution must be found. Ice, to his immense credit, has repeatedly offered in spite of all this to refund the money anyway. What does he get back? A motherboard that may or may not be thee same as it was when it left his hands, when he said it worked. And again, I must cite the lack of motivation for dishonesty on Ice's part re the good working order of the part- the sale was for $35.00, with shipping and all?
and markt:
No one is suing anyone? You practice this 'lil "voice of authority" in many forums??
 
I don't have to practice a little voice of authority. But since you come in here and say he can sue for libel (all over a $35 mobo and ONE transaction that heat prolly hasn't been left yet and shouldn't be left until the deal is complete...correct me if i'm wrong.), I figure I can call you out for being ridiculous. Other people have already. I'm just joining them.
 
DJStillman said:
Dude, you are seriously digging yourself a hole with your lies...

Again, for our readers:
Click to expand...

he clearly calls him a liar,

Whether the sale was for 30 cents or 30 million has nothing to do with intent to inflict emotional distress and cause emotional harm, and inpugn sellers reputation.


The amount of controversy is irrelevant as to the harm done by malicious libel.
 
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