Warm? TPLink Archer AX-11000 $200 at Costco (instore only I guess?)

SamirD

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I think you have a very different definition of "standard" or just don't know what the word means. There is literally no spec listed for expanding single Wi-Fi networks across multiple APs in the 802.11 standard. That's the biggest part of the problem. So, what happens? Literally EVERY mfg has their own instructions and limitations on how you can expand your Wi-Fi network. As I mentioned previously, most if not all mfgs recommend bridging additional routers/APs to extend Wi-Fi to multiple APs, but in reality this is counter productive since you are limited to what the primary/mfg locked router is capable of. So again, what's standard when the mfg is telling you their standard set-up and its different than your definition?

1. Actually you're right, the mesh network would probably jump around more the difference is its not doing it blindly bc its getting an intelligent handoff between APs.
2. Nah, that's oldschool way of thinking, doing all that is an inefficient waste of time, not to mention it won't resolve the fundamental issue with APs that don't have the ability to work in tandem....the ability to hand clients off to the AP best suited to serve them. Let the mesh APs negotiate signal strength, channel and decide which signal to use. Not to mention if someone didn't do the "manual fine tuning aside from signal strength and proper overlap" are they supposed to hire a professional to do this for them? lol. WiFi isn't a tech nerd right of passage, its a common utility and should be as easy as setting up a smart device. Oh wait, it is, with Mesh networking. ;)
3. Yes if you subscribe to exclusive proprietary services you are going to be faced with vendor lock-in. Welcome to life lol. Its a reality at any level ;) However, if given the opportunity to get a better product and experience and the trade-off is dealing with vendor lock-in, its typically worth it. Again, welcome to life. :D If that changes you move on, its all about the right tool for the job and in most cases that evolves over time. Also, enterprise gear is literally the worst when it comes to vendor lock-in lol, I mean FortiGate for example requires a subscription for all of their security services and service plans for firmware updates and security patches and they go EOL every what? 2-3 years? No wonder so much of it ends up in landfills, grey markets, or your home network. We've had to replace our FortiGates 2-3x already over 6 years? Started on E and now we're on G? Talk about forced obsolescence.
4. Its not an issue, the Verizon router is garbage with lousy signal strength which is why I needed to expand my WiFi network to begin with. Certainly less interference from multiple bands than living in a MTU. If their boxes still used coax/MoCa I'd disable the wireless completely. Maybe one day I'll be able to disable the 2.4GHz as well but as already mentioned, many IoT/Smart devices still use 2.4G for cost, range and compatibility with older networking equipment and I'm probably going to drop Verizon TV soon anyways.
5. Yeah again, you can bake your costs into your situation but the reality is, most people are not going to host their own domain, filter their traffic or anything else because they simply don't have a public endpoint other than a dynamic IP address that they don't control or in most cases, even know about. So yeah, you can spend your day worrying, just as much as you can worry about a serial killer picking you off randomly on the street or you can just go about your business.
6. LOL, man you really don't get it. Most people aren't going to do half of what you have to do to even get multiple routers set up as APs with the same SSID. Connecting the second router and using a PC, you assume they even have a PC, with a ethernet port on it to boot! Then remoting in, you could literally print the credentials on the side of the router with a localhost alias instead of an IP and most people still couldn't figure it out. Then disable DHCP and configure the SSID with the same credentials and security protocol. Oh, then hope that those settings didn't revert or reset during a firmware update or power outage and have to do it all over again, except this time your router is in a different part of the house maybe in a hard to access area and you get to live this fun experience all over again lol. Oh and you get to try and remember the password you set 3 years ago on each router (I know, I know, $6/mo for a password manager solves this, no biggy) <----- This experience sucked, and that's not even scratching the surface of what you recommend. Maybe your wife is constantly complaining about old vs new because all of your hacked together legacy workarounds are constantly failing and she's relying on you to get them back working again in a timely manner? LOL. That's probably my biggest motivation to make sure everything works well and is easy to fix. Because you know what's even less fun than doing work when you get home from work? Working as free tech support for friends and family and constantly having to fix the hacky solution you put in place bc you chose to save a few bucks over a more robust, better supported solution. As for the paid driver comment, yeah I think you missed the point. You're comparing having a paid driver to a $200-300 expense as if it is some luxury or exorbitant amount of money :D Let me guess, you're the guy who would rather inconvenience a friend or relative to pick you up or drop you off at the airport instead of just paying the $50 for an Uber. Because time isn't money, gas is free, its fun driving round trip to the airport but none of that matters its all about how much you didn't have to pay to be inefficient and not inconvenience those around you with a solution that simply works better for everyone.....
7. Where do you come up with this stuff? LOL. Did you think B, G, N, AC and AX were a rip-off when they first came out and cost 2-3x more than their predecessor spec parts? I guess they lose that rip-off tag whenever that performance level trickles down to a price point you deem is worthwhile, it has nothing to do with market adoption, ramp up volume, decreases in cost of production, etc. that drive these companies to bring new tech to the masses, like everything else right? I mean this is literally how ALL new tech is rolled out, it costs a lot more as "early adopters tax" or "bleeding edge" or "cost an arm and a leg or maybe even a kidney" I'm sure you've heard of these terms right? lol. Fast, new, shiny costs more, its that simple, people willing to pay more for that sooner are certainly going to be fewer than the masses, so prices will go down with time and adoption, its already happening, I know you'll keep fighting the inevitable because it means you might actually have to upgrade your old enterprise tech to some newer old enterprise tech 4-5 years after the consumer market gets to upgrade, but that's what happens when you rely on extremely marked up enterprise level gear with tons of hardware and firmware features most end-users simply don't want or need. Also, Netgear is traded on Nasd and Linksys was at one point owned by Cisco, they're now owned by Foxconn/Belkin so yeah, they're not exactly nobodies. They use what's needed for consumer level products and they strip out the rest, which obviously saves both physical/production costs, R&D/IP costs, but most importantly, support costs.... there shouldn't be any need in explaining the difference in costs that drive enterprise gear vs. consumer grade gear. But let me guess anyone who isn't running enterprise level server hardware, racks, UPS, NAS racks with 10G interconnects is using crap hardware and doing it wrong too right? lol.

And here you go again comparing Wired to Wireless lol. You still don't get it. What good is your wired gigabit connection on a device that literally does not have an ethernet port to connect it to? I bet your wife really wants an ipad Pro but instead you insist she uses a 6 year old Dell Inspiron because it has an ethernet port and gets Gigabit speeds! Its better because it works perfectly with your home network! :D Still doesn't change the fact you're not getting wireless Gigabit speeds on your enterprise level gear while I am on my lowly peasant grade mesh network. And who knows how long it will be before you finally get your hands on one of those AXE enterprise APs for the right price of free? :D
8. Sorry I can definitely say people are going to go with cheap, easy, fast, reliable over what you're offering. The market also seems to agree as the ratio of mesh to standalone router/APs has shifted dramatically over the years. The fact you have such little self-awareness and don't seem to understand you're in the extreme minority with regard to level of effort for home WiFi is frankly astonishing. The OP asked about a $200 WiFi AP and you go on about how that's crazy expensive and running a hardwire to every room is the right solution and if you absolutely must go wireless, go find some used Enterprise grade equipment and go FrankenMesh lol. Literally some of the craziest, out-of-scope advice I've seen anywhere lol.

As for the rest again, you sit there and call it technosnobbery and yet how many times have you said consumer grade equipment is trash in the same breath? Because anyone who doesn't want to be 24/7/365 for their own NOC with recycled enterprise gear is doing wrong, right? lol

And WRT54G? Really? I mean sure the gigabit ports still work fine, but the WiFi is absolutely abysmal by today's standards from both a speed and signal perspective. You might as well compare USB2.0 speeds to USB3+ at that point, its not even the same ballpark anymore.

The whole point of making the water cooling comparison is that the end results currently justify the means, if that changed dramatically, that would no longer be the case. Now apply it to our discussion here. Also, you still didn't answer the question about ever using a Mesh network personally, for friends/family etc. so I'm going to assume that's a "No". Mmm.....Ignorance is bliss I guess! :D
I think you're actually talking about yourself. You were trying to configure APs in a non-standard way and then complained about how they were too complicated. There is not an IEEE standard for a single SSID across APs, but there is the engineering for handoff that can be utilized for that purpose if one is to properly set up signal strength. Not sure what you're talking about in terms of what manufacturers are telling for expansion--they all just say buy mesh or repeater.

1. It might have a bit more insight into what channels are being used if it is the only kid on the block, but in a saturated environment, the main issue is outside the system so it wouldn't be able to gain much insight for channel management. Channel management isn't really an issue for anything anymore as everything can hop around as needed, and the days of setting a fixed channel that is 'in the clear' are long gone.
2. Ah yes the old technosnobbery 'old bad, new shiny good'. There's no need for a pro anymore since everyone has a cell phone that can check signal strength. It's a fairly easy exercise to do once and then be done which is akin to calibrating a home theater. If someone wants to pay $200-$300 every few years just to not do that, then they definitely could just hire a pro to do it for them. In fact, I've seen entire professional strucutred cabling and wifi setups for cheaper than that. But it's all about what you want to optimize, time or money, and most people's time is worth far less than their money as I previously stated.
3. Again, it seems you're doing it wrong. If you need those subscriptions, then yes you do need to keep the hardware on the same level (windows updates do the same thing btw). And fortigate's security subscriptions are in a whole different league compared to the script kiddie stopping power of consumer security. Again, if you don't need that, a non-subscription fortigate will be more than sufficient for a home and will still be above anything consumer.
4. Not much you can do about this as you've mentioned.
5. Like I said there's no real cost to this for me and for most others too as there's free services out there for a domain name. And the hard cost is like what $10/year? $200-$300 every few years to avoid $10/yr is bass ackwards imo.
6. You're the one that doesn't get it. It's summed up in a few words--fools and his money parted. I think more people have a multiple AP set up than you think because the cost of a fancy mesh system is ridiculous compared to taking existing gear (previous router(s) as APs) and just setting it up correctly in a few hours. Most people do think that saving $200-$300 is worth a few hours work.

Jesus, again you made things more complicated. WTF do you need complicated passwords on routers that will be in your LAN on the LAN side? Who's going to attack those from the outside? And what cheap chinese junk were you using that would lose credentials on a firmware or power outage? Nothing I have, consumer or otherwise, has ever behaved like what you've described.

Reliability has never been an issue with my setups; hence why I'm not having to go out and spend money every few years to get some magic mesh system and then proclaim on the Internet that its the best way so I can feel better about myself. So, let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum.
7. And I guess the 'early adopters tax' is something everyone should just pay and follow your lead, right? You even mention that those people (like yourself) will 'be fewer than the masses', and yet you think your solution is right for everyone? It's either one way or the other--you can't claim that both are true.

I mentioned what a Ruckus could do for your wireless comparison. My wife's wireless devices have no issue and ironically she complains more about how her Apple stuff doesn't come with ethernet ports since she's seen the difference between wireless and wired in her global work travels. The next move we're looking at is 5Gb which will leave your mesh system in the dust.
8. You can call $200-300 every few years as cheap, but I think most people would disagree since the crowd on here looks for deals all the time for saving money. The market has shifted because people are paying--that's pretty basic economics--you make what you can profit on that people are buying. Again, no magic involved.

What's crazy to me is that you prescribe buying mesh systems every few years like it's a lifetime subscription model--that's the most stupid thing to do at a time when companies are simply trying to get people hooked like this. I guess once this goes to a fully AAS model, you'll be really giddy. :rolleyes:

It's a fact that enterprise gear is better than consumer. No different than how a Ferrari is faster than a Kia Sonata. I'm not using an opinion that 'old bad, new shiny always better' as the basis of my argument.

O.M.G. You really think the WRT54G was the point of that statement? :banghead: Of course it's an impossibly old piece of tech, but my point is that it will still work for certain purposes (like a low bandwidth IoT connection on 2.4), and that trashing anything older than bleeding edge is a true waste of resources.

The end results do not always justify the means. Otherwise, the whole idea of an orderly society would crumble into a third world mess.

I've studied and used more systems than I can count, your precious mesh crap included. Remember, I'm not the one with my head in the sand not wanting to build a proper network for home because it's just like being at work. I have no problem getting the right tool for the job without getting sucked into some sort of subscription model, et al.
 

SamirD

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Lol the inevitabilities of the medium seem to disagree with you, as more and more devices are in fact going completely wireless. How many dongles do you need to connect a usb-c/thunderbolt only device to a network drop and how much will those dongles cost you? A good usb-c multi-port with ethernet will cost you $50-100 and its a huge pita to have to use. A good usb-c/thunderbolt docking system with display outputs will cost you $150+ easy. If given the choice, especially with a fast WiFi network to connect to, most people are not going to bother with the wired tether unless they absolutely need to.

As for the Ostrich scenario, its actually the opposite, I'm running around freeballing it commando style while people like you are turtling/ostriching because they're worried about getting hacked. I am wearing shoes though, gotta protect those feet lol. Its nice not worrying about every little thing out there that's out to get ya! :D
Not the devices I buy, as rarely as I do. I think the answer to your question is what every Apple user had to deal with when those were the only ports left on the laptop--dongle city. But they did it for a superior experience because wireless everything isn't reliable. And those docks are far cheaper than that used or if you know where to look. In fact, here's where I look since you are paying far too much for a dock if you're paying that much:
https://www.cdw.com/search/?key=doc...ch-_-Search+All&SortBy=PriceAsc&maxrecords=72
https://www.techforless.com/cgi-bin...phrase=dock&searchbutton.x=0&searchbutton.y=0
https://www.provantage.com/service/searchsvcs/H-OPENBX?SEC=^OPENBX&QUERY=dock&SUBMIT.x=0&SUBMIT.y=0

You're the one that's running away from building a robust network at home because you think it's work, not me. Fine that you choose not to because time is a finite resource, but recommending this as the best of course of action for everyone is wrong.
 

SamirD

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That's literally what I recommended to the OP, as having a powerful router/AP and a mesh system are not mutually exclusive. I literally said if you are going to buy one of these types of "gaming APs", at least buy one that can later be integrated or expanded into a mesh network so you're not starting all over again in 2-3 years when the next newest single powerful AP comes along.

Asus is not the only one to offer these products that started as gaming AWACs that can be retrofitted and integrated into their own proprietary mesh network btw, they at least had the hardware necessary to enable it and backported the feature ONLY after mesh networking took off. Linksys and TP-Link do as well, which was why it was surprising that the one linked in the OPs post doesn't natively support their mesh networking.
What you recommended does not exist without vendor lock-in and regular purchases.

There's nothing special about the hardware that's required for making anything mesh--it's just software. I think the reason Asus couldn't roll it out to all previous devices is that the software takes more hardware resources than available in some of the older models. It's interesting to know that Linksys and TP-Link are doing the same now. I guess that will spell the end of dedicated mesh systems at some point as people can just buy whatever they want from a single vendor versus a 'system'. And then at some point IEEE will make a standard that will allow cross vendor interactivity. And then the 'mesh system' fad will be over.
 

SamirD

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Sure it s a big expense up front, but if you look at it over useful life and it means you don't have to buy a new powerful AP every few years, or you spread those purchases out over the course of 2-4 years and keep adding to the same mesh ecosystem, it doesn't look or feel so bad in terms of what it costs.
Didn't you just argue that it was 'cheap'? :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

If you're going for the value argument, that's where an enterprise router and AP combo beats a mesh setup. This has been my point the whole time (for the TL;DR). :whistle:
 

SamirD

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TBH, I think a lot of this conversation misses the point entirely.

Lots of people just don't have the time to mess around with networking. I used to go the (one good router) route, but it never worked out. First I had a three story townhome and the cable came in the basement. So bedroom acces was not great. Then I bought a house, same 1800 sq ft but two stories and a basement. SAME issue.

Plus, even expensive consumer routers are crap these days. I was going through Nighthawks every two years.

So, I got a Google Wifi Mesh system when they dropped and after a 10 minute setup, I haven't touched it since. Not a SINGLE problem in years. Two houses (current is 3600 sq ft), 4 service providers, MANY different wifi devices (laptops, desktops, servers, phones, tablets, IoT stuff, you name it) and it's been flawless.

Why would I opt for a "better" solution that takes longer to set up but costs the same?
No, I see that point. Providing a product or service is the hallmark of capitalism and American innovation. These systems have definitely filled a niche.

But the problem is that these things are now being touted as the only solution to such coverage issues, when they're not. That's the issue I have with them. And to tout them as technically superior to things they are clearly not is also wrong.

To answer your question--if it costs the same, then just better security. But if you're working with used enterprise gear, it would cost less and offer better security. Used consumer APs set up properly would just cost less.

Like you said--not for everyone--as for many networking isn't as easy as learning to change your own oil. But for someone who's willing to learn a bit, it has significant advantages imo since you also know what you built.
 

Modred189

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No, I see that point. Providing a product or service is the hallmark of capitalism and American innovation. These systems have definitely filled a niche.

But the problem is that these things are now being touted as the only solution to such coverage issues, when they're not. That's the issue I have with them. And to tout them as technically superior to things they are clearly not is also wrong.

To answer your question--if it costs the same, then just better security. But if you're working with used enterprise gear, it would cost less and offer better security. Used consumer APs set up properly would just cost less.

Like you said--not for everyone--as for many networking isn't as easy as learning to change your own oil. But for someone who's willing to learn a bit, it has significant advantages imo since you also know what you built.
Fair. I just think that the niche for consumer mesh systems is larger than for repurposed enterprise gear. The cast majority of people don't know a single brand name of that kid of hardware. Hell, most users have never heard of Ubiquiti. They know Linksys, and Google, and Netgear etc.

And this systems set up in 10 minutes, in some cases without accessing a traditional router setup screen. The Google mesh sets up with just a few phone screens.

If they both solve the problem, more people will go for the easier solution, avan tech-capable folks like us. Why would I want to troubleshoot networking issues and config activities at home if I do it at work?
 

chizow

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I think you're actually talking about yourself. You were trying to configure APs in a non-standard way and then complained about how they were too complicated. There is not an IEEE standard for a single SSID across APs, but there is the engineering for handoff that can be utilized for that purpose if one is to properly set up signal strength. Not sure what you're talking about in terms of what manufacturers are telling for expansion--they all just say buy mesh or repeater.

1. It might have a bit more insight into what channels are being used if it is the only kid on the block, but in a saturated environment, the main issue is outside the system so it wouldn't be able to gain much insight for channel management. Channel management isn't really an issue for anything anymore as everything can hop around as needed, and the days of setting a fixed channel that is 'in the clear' are long gone.
2. Ah yes the old technosnobbery 'old bad, new shiny good'. There's no need for a pro anymore since everyone has a cell phone that can check signal strength. It's a fairly easy exercise to do once and then be done which is akin to calibrating a home theater. If someone wants to pay $200-$300 every few years just to not do that, then they definitely could just hire a pro to do it for them. In fact, I've seen entire professional strucutred cabling and wifi setups for cheaper than that. But it's all about what you want to optimize, time or money, and most people's time is worth far less than their money as I previously stated.
3. Again, it seems you're doing it wrong. If you need those subscriptions, then yes you do need to keep the hardware on the same level (windows updates do the same thing btw). And fortigate's security subscriptions are in a whole different league compared to the script kiddie stopping power of consumer security. Again, if you don't need that, a non-subscription fortigate will be more than sufficient for a home and will still be above anything consumer.
4. Not much you can do about this as you've mentioned.
5. Like I said there's no real cost to this for me and for most others too as there's free services out there for a domain name. And the hard cost is like what $10/year? $200-$300 every few years to avoid $10/yr is bass ackwards imo.
6. You're the one that doesn't get it. It's summed up in a few words--fools and his money parted. I think more people have a multiple AP set up than you think because the cost of a fancy mesh system is ridiculous compared to taking existing gear (previous router(s) as APs) and just setting it up correctly in a few hours. Most people do think that saving $200-$300 is worth a few hours work.

Jesus, again you made things more complicated. WTF do you need complicated passwords on routers that will be in your LAN on the LAN side? Who's going to attack those from the outside? And what cheap chinese junk were you using that would lose credentials on a firmware or power outage? Nothing I have, consumer or otherwise, has ever behaved like what you've described.

Reliability has never been an issue with my setups; hence why I'm not having to go out and spend money every few years to get some magic mesh system and then proclaim on the Internet that its the best way so I can feel better about myself. So, let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum.
7. And I guess the 'early adopters tax' is something everyone should just pay and follow your lead, right? You even mention that those people (like yourself) will 'be fewer than the masses', and yet you think your solution is right for everyone? It's either one way or the other--you can't claim that both are true.

I mentioned what a Ruckus could do for your wireless comparison. My wife's wireless devices have no issue and ironically she complains more about how her Apple stuff doesn't come with ethernet ports since she's seen the difference between wireless and wired in her global work travels. The next move we're looking at is 5Gb which will leave your mesh system in the dust.
8. You can call $200-300 every few years as cheap, but I think most people would disagree since the crowd on here looks for deals all the time for saving money. The market has shifted because people are paying--that's pretty basic economics--you make what you can profit on that people are buying. Again, no magic involved.

What's crazy to me is that you prescribe buying mesh systems every few years like it's a lifetime subscription model--that's the most stupid thing to do at a time when companies are simply trying to get people hooked like this. I guess once this goes to a fully AAS model, you'll be really giddy. :rolleyes:

It's a fact that enterprise gear is better than consumer. No different than how a Ferrari is faster than a Kia Sonata. I'm not using an opinion that 'old bad, new shiny always better' as the basis of my argument.

O.M.G. You really think the WRT54G was the point of that statement? :banghead: Of course it's an impossibly old piece of tech, but my point is that it will still work for certain purposes (like a low bandwidth IoT connection on 2.4), and that trashing anything older than bleeding edge is a true waste of resources.

The end results do not always justify the means. Otherwise, the whole idea of an orderly society would crumble into a third world mess.

I've studied and used more systems than I can count, your precious mesh crap included. Remember, I'm not the one with my head in the sand not wanting to build a proper network for home because it's just like being at work. I have no problem getting the right tool for the job without getting sucked into some sort of subscription model, et al.
No, I'm talking about you lol. But at least you FINALLY admitted there is no 802.11 wireless extension STANDARD which is why diff proprietary mfgs can do whatever they want which all but guarantees their proprietary locked in hardware is NOT fully compatible with one another to the degree of a Mesh system from a single vendor who has implemented their own specifications and ensures it works end to end. The whole point that you're tone deaf to is that each of these mfgs all recommend diff configs and their hardware has diff capabilities. Some force you into bridge mode, some force you into wireless only bridge, some allow wired bridging but then may try disable your WiFi completely, or force you to try and bridge the primary router's WiFi settings. I know that's not YOUR experience, but you don't seem to understand, used enterprise gear is a NON-STARTER for most people and the experience I am describing is in fact the experience most people using home networking gear have experienced. For those people, Mesh solves all of this effortlessly and flawlessly. You have 3 different people telling you in this thread alone and yet you insist, there's no magic to it and everyone should just be using used enterprise gear or they're doing it wrong. :D

1. No, its more than that, the mesh network knows how many other nodes are in the network and what their signal strength is, so if your client drops below that level, it can be signaled to actively switch to the faster node. It certainly isn't going to hang onto that dying signal for dear life until it drops off completely as it would with same SSIDs across two APs that have no idea they are in the same network and should be working in tandem. If anything they're more likely to try and boost their signal or use beam-forming tech or whatever else to hold onto that client even longer.
2. Is it as easy as taking 15-30 minutes on your phone via App and letting the nodes take care of it themselves? I didn't think so :D And there's no need to pay anyone $200-300 when you can actually put that towards faster, better, more compatible and easy to use hardware instead of trying to necro bump some old enterprise gear.
3. So again, why are you bothering with enterprise level gear at home if you don't even need one of the most important features? That along with actually using its VLAN, ACL/Firewall capabilities and the subscription security are actually some of the more important features and maybe IPSec if you need some site-to-site tunneling capabilities. I can easily tell you why I need them at work, any b2b company that is audited for Security Compliance frameworks like SOC2 or HITRUST needs to have their perimeter security systems patched and up-to-date. Or are you ignoring all those firmware updates that address CVEs and not updating your vulnerability and web filter definitions? Or are you relying on some script kiddies to do it for you? LOL.
5. LOL nice try, $10, what domain and hosting site are you using? SamirD.gethacked.yolo? lol Might as well take your chances with your dynamic IP than pay someone for some random cheap domain.
6. You're not saving anything though and multiple people in this thread have already told you there's no way they would bother with used Enterprise gear at home, especially if it meant just saving just $200-300 lol. So maybe it is JUST you?

As for passwords, that is literally the backdoor for every device of this nature, you can reset to the default password on the router in case you forget it or you need to re-flash a bricked firmware update. In rare instances you have to reset everything including any stored info on flash memory. I'm sure you've done this since even Enterprise gear builds these safeguards in......but let me guess you've never had a firmware upgrade fail on your enterprise gear right? Well guess what, I have and so has thousands of other hits on the internet frequent enough that Fortinet publishes instructions on what to do next... https://community.fortinet.com/t5/F...download-firmware-from-FortiGuard/ta-p/196998 amongst dozens of other KB articles.

Also, you mentioned you've lived in multiple MTU in the past, did you have access to the utility/LAN closet? Was your ONT secured or accessible by others? Did you control all space and networking equipment to line of demarcation? If not, you certainly should be concerned about LAN to LAN security and passwords since you don't even have your physical network secured.

Password resets aren't an issue on Mesh systems, you simply hold a reset button or scan a QR code and put the node into pairing mode and your app detects the new node and adds it to your network. Piece of cake!

And I'm certainly not proclaiming anything, certainly not for you lol. I'm simply observing and commenting on what you've stated repeatedly. I've also stated what I consider the obvious, your solution is a non-starter for the overwhelming majority of the market and that people in the market for a WiFi system are going to choose an all-inclusive solution that is easy to set-up and use and performs better over saving the $200-300 for the cost of that system. But I'm sure you'll keep saying that's just me proclaiming it across the internet when pretty much everyone else in this thread has said the same thing......

7. I didn't say my solution was right for everyone, I've explicitly said the opposite. Not everyone is going to need AXE, if you don't have a device that needs it, why pay the tax? I've very clearly stated people should buy what their devices are capable of and you can buy a very capable 3 node AX mesh network system for $250-400, which is not unreasonable at all and offers great performance, coverage and ease of set up. And, its roughly the same price as a single powerful traditional router. Clearly, the system that offers better coverage and range TODAY and is expandable in the future for a little bit more money is going to have a longer useful life than a single node system that is borderline inadequate today with no upgrade path in the future.

You mentioned Ruckus bc you like bringing up irrelevant hardware that no home user is ever going to want or need, how much does a Ruckus AP cost that will do AXE speeds at 1Gbps+ anyways? And if your wife misses having a wired tether so much, she can absolutely carry around a usb-c or lightning to ethernet dongle along with a network cable, that's an option too! I bet she won't miss it so much after she realizes how that kind of defeats the purpose of having a mobile, thin, light media consumption device. Oh, it also uses a decent amount of power too and will reduce her battery life. Also, I can upgrade to 5Gbe too, I won't even need a switch that supports as many ports and the best part about it is my cheap mesh WiFi junk will STILL be faster than your enterprise grade WiFi stuff ;)

8. People are used to spending $200-300 every few years, until they upgrade to a mesh system anyways. :) Then its not about wholesale upgrades or replacement every few years, its about expanding and replacing nodes as needed, simple maintenance and far lower expenditure and TCO. So yeah if you already spent $200-300 every few years trying to improve your WiFi over the years, that's not much different than spending $600-900 and then not having to upgrade at all for 4-5 years. It all depends on perspective I guess.

I don't prescribe to buying a new mesh system every few years, as I said, I replace nodes or expand my network because its all the same mesh ecosystem that is both forward and backward compatible and also includes traditional routers. Every once in awhile I will do a big upgrade and I might not do another for another 5 years, but nothing goes to waste, I keep some nodes and pass along the ones I retired to friends and family to build out their networks. And the best part about it is I know it'll just work and I won't have to play free NOC 24/7/365 to keep them up and running. :D But I guess this is stupid in your opinion and playing with the latest and fastest wireless tech isn't [H] unless you think so right? :D

Again, how is it Enterprise gear better? I'm not arguing it isn't better in some ways, but you turn those features off at home anyways and most home users simply don't need those features. Enterprise gear certainly isn't easier to set up, it certainly isn't easier to maintain/administrate, it certainly isn't cheaper for most, and it certainly isn't FASTER when it comes to WiFi. It also isn't as robust in terms of coverage and handling multi-nodes and client hand-off. So exactly how is it better for the target audience, the home consumer?

WRT to WRT54G lol, it is obsolete useless tech and even mentioning was a waste of bits on the internet in 2022. The point is there's not a single application that would even make me or anyone else bother using it even for a 2.4GHz low bandwidth application to justify blowing the dust off of it, finding the wall wart, going back into its ancient and slow UI just to handle maybe turning on/off a lightbulb with Alexa when any mesh node is going to handle that along with high bandwidth 2.4/5GHz flawlessly. But I guess that's you in a nutshell, let's try and justify and find a use for obsolete tech so we can feel better about ourselves on the internets for not falling for the latest and greatest scheme to make you spend money!

As for the state of the world and studying various solutions lol, I take that as a No, you have never used Mesh crap, right? Duly noted. Ignorance is bliss.... :D
 

chizow

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Not the devices I buy, as rarely as I do. I think the answer to your question is what every Apple user had to deal with when those were the only ports left on the laptop--dongle city. But they did it for a superior experience because wireless everything isn't reliable. And those docks are far cheaper than that used or if you know where to look. In fact, here's where I look since you are paying far too much for a dock if you're paying that much:
https://www.cdw.com/search/?key=doc...ch-_-Search+All&SortBy=PriceAsc&maxrecords=72
https://www.techforless.com/cgi-bin...phrase=dock&searchbutton.x=0&searchbutton.y=0
https://www.provantage.com/service/searchsvcs/H-OPENBX?SEC=^OPENBX&QUERY=dock&SUBMIT.x=0&SUBMIT.y=0

You're the one that's running away from building a robust network at home because you think it's work, not me. Fine that you choose not to because time is a finite resource, but recommending this as the best of course of action for everyone is wrong.
See, this is the problem with buying 2nd, 3rd hand used crap that some company's IT/Infrastructure Director already offloaded because it no longer meets the needs of their users. There's always a catch and there is no "free lunch" with these kinds of things, you're eating what someone threw away for a reason. But I guess I know how/why I get all of those unsolicited emails from "Hardware Recyclers" and "Asset Disposal" companys, there's clearly a market for this crap somewhere? :D I mean some even have the nerve to try and charge ME for taking our decom stuff like they are doing us a favor and that I can't just have an intern put it in a rubbermaid bin and take it to the recycle transfer station. :D

But yeah, need to read the fine print on this kind of crap, what good is a USB-C dock that supports 3x1080p in 2022?

"A single USB-C cable provides a plug-and-play connection for up to three 1080p monitors, with no need for driver installation, dongles, or adapters."

I'm sure I'll find similar obsolete or less than ideal stuff in the rest of your links. I mean I can find a bunch of cheap Dell docks with that e-port too for $20 when it used to sell new for $200, but then you look at what laptops it supports and its not such a deal anymore......

Also your "wireless everything isn't reliable" comment is certainly telling :D I'd disagree, a good wireless networking solution is reliable. And wireless dependability and speed is a big part of the reason devices are going more and more toward completely wireless. How many people bother tethering their phones to a dongle and then connect that to a wired network? Anyone? I use my phone more than I use any device nowadays and it is fully dependent on wireless dependability and in areas that have good WiFi, that is certainly more reliable than cellular.
 
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chizow

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What you recommended does not exist without vendor lock-in and regular purchases.

There's nothing special about the hardware that's required for making anything mesh--it's just software. I think the reason Asus couldn't roll it out to all previous devices is that the software takes more hardware resources than available in some of the older models. It's interesting to know that Linksys and TP-Link are doing the same now. I guess that will spell the end of dedicated mesh systems at some point as people can just buy whatever they want from a single vendor versus a 'system'. And then at some point IEEE will make a standard that will allow cross vendor interactivity. And then the 'mesh system' fad will be over.
Yeah and that's you not paying attention again. People are making those regular purchases to begin with and the fact there is no vendor compatibility or mesh upgrade path is why they become single purchases that become obsolete over time, rather than purchases that can be integrated into a more robust mesh ecosystem.

If its "just software" why can't all the fancy Enterprise companies on the NASQ get their acts together and make it happen for the tens of people who want something as good as lowly mesh using their used enterprise gear in their homes? :D

And, if/when all these different vendors work with IEEE and come up with an 802.11 WiFi extension STANDARD, that will be a great day as no one will have to deal with the cumbersome set-up and maintenance of traditional WiFi systems and everyone will be able to enjoy the ease of use, speed and reliability of Mesh WiFi.
 

chizow

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This is a terrible example as the maintenance costs on both are stupid and reliability sucks, lol.
Its an even worse example since the enterprise grade stuff he's calling the Ferrari comes with all the maintenance and headaches without any of the speed lol. Its more like having a Ferrari in upkeep but a Kia engine under the hood. :D
 

chizow

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Didn't you just argue that it was 'cheap'? :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

If you're going for the value argument, that's where an enterprise router and AP combo beats a mesh setup. This has been my point the whole time (for the TL;DR). :whistle:
Well let's say I'm aware that some folks here think $200-300 is a lot of money...so I guess I can't generalize or assume a similar point of view for everyone when it comes to cheap or expensive. :D

As for my experience lol, enterprise router and AP are slower than dirt even with all bandwidth shaping and restrictions removed. You can feel free to prove me wrong with your Ruckus AP or whatever else you have in your home but I still haven't seen any proof from you that shows Gbps wireless speeds on your enterprise grade equipment, I'd even settle for WiFi 6 speeds.
 

SamirD

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Fair. I just think that the niche for consumer mesh systems is larger than for repurposed enterprise gear. The cast majority of people don't know a single brand name of that kid of hardware. Hell, most users have never heard of Ubiquiti. They know Linksys, and Google, and Netgear etc.

And this systems set up in 10 minutes, in some cases without accessing a traditional router setup screen. The Google mesh sets up with just a few phone screens.

If they both solve the problem, more people will go for the easier solution, avan tech-capable folks like us. Why would I want to troubleshoot networking issues and config activities at home if I do it at work?
I don't doubt that it is, but that's mainly because there's a marketing push by the mesh companies whereas there's none for used enterprise stuff--you just have to know about it from somewhere.

Personally, I like traditional configuration screens because I know what I'm looking for and need to do. I understand that one doesn't then a more simple setup is useful, but personally I always find those too condescending and cumbersome to get around to what I need to get to.

Perhaps, but they're not the same as one inherently will have less security--especially if it is made by google, whose interest is in harvesting their userbase.
 

SamirD

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This is a terrible example as the maintenance costs on both are stupid and reliability sucks, lol.
I think you missed the point because if I was talking about maintenance I would have brought up the nearly nothing to do Tesla.
 

SamirD

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No, I'm talking about you lol. But at least you FINALLY admitted there is no 802.11 wireless extension STANDARD which is why diff proprietary mfgs can do whatever they want which all but guarantees their proprietary locked in hardware is NOT fully compatible with one another to the degree of a Mesh system from a single vendor who has implemented their own specifications and ensures it works end to end. The whole point that you're tone deaf to is that each of these mfgs all recommend diff configs and their hardware has diff capabilities. Some force you into bridge mode, some force you into wireless only bridge, some allow wired bridging but then may try disable your WiFi completely, or force you to try and bridge the primary router's WiFi settings. I know that's not YOUR experience, but you don't seem to understand, used enterprise gear is a NON-STARTER for most people and the experience I am describing is in fact the experience most people using home networking gear have experienced. For those people, Mesh solves all of this effortlessly and flawlessly. You have 3 different people telling you in this thread alone and yet you insist, there's no magic to it and everyone should just be using used enterprise gear or they're doing it wrong. :D

1. No, its more than that, the mesh network knows how many other nodes are in the network and what their signal strength is, so if your client drops below that level, it can be signaled to actively switch to the faster node. It certainly isn't going to hang onto that dying signal for dear life until it drops off completely as it would with same SSIDs across two APs that have no idea they are in the same network and should be working in tandem. If anything they're more likely to try and boost their signal or use beam-forming tech or whatever else to hold onto that client even longer.
2. Is it as easy as taking 15-30 minutes on your phone via App and letting the nodes take care of it themselves? I didn't think so :D And there's no need to pay anyone $200-300 when you can actually put that towards faster, better, more compatible and easy to use hardware instead of trying to necro bump some old enterprise gear.
3. So again, why are you bothering with enterprise level gear at home if you don't even need one of the most important features? That along with actually using its VLAN, ACL/Firewall capabilities and the subscription security are actually some of the more important features and maybe IPSec if you need some site-to-site tunneling capabilities. I can easily tell you why I need them at work, any b2b company that is audited for Security Compliance frameworks like SOC2 or HITRUST needs to have their perimeter security systems patched and up-to-date. Or are you ignoring all those firmware updates that address CVEs and not updating your vulnerability and web filter definitions? Or are you relying on some script kiddies to do it for you? LOL.
5. LOL nice try, $10, what domain and hosting site are you using? SamirD.gethacked.yolo? lol Might as well take your chances with your dynamic IP than pay someone for some random cheap domain.
6. You're not saving anything though and multiple people in this thread have already told you there's no way they would bother with used Enterprise gear at home, especially if it meant just saving just $200-300 lol. So maybe it is JUST you?

As for passwords, that is literally the backdoor for every device of this nature, you can reset to the default password on the router in case you forget it or you need to re-flash a bricked firmware update. In rare instances you have to reset everything including any stored info on flash memory. I'm sure you've done this since even Enterprise gear builds these safeguards in......but let me guess you've never had a firmware upgrade fail on your enterprise gear right? Well guess what, I have and so has thousands of other hits on the internet frequent enough that Fortinet publishes instructions on what to do next... https://community.fortinet.com/t5/F...download-firmware-from-FortiGuard/ta-p/196998 amongst dozens of other KB articles.

Also, you mentioned you've lived in multiple MTU in the past, did you have access to the utility/LAN closet? Was your ONT secured or accessible by others? Did you control all space and networking equipment to line of demarcation? If not, you certainly should be concerned about LAN to LAN security and passwords since you don't even have your physical network secured.

Password resets aren't an issue on Mesh systems, you simply hold a reset button or scan a QR code and put the node into pairing mode and your app detects the new node and adds it to your network. Piece of cake!

And I'm certainly not proclaiming anything, certainly not for you lol. I'm simply observing and commenting on what you've stated repeatedly. I've also stated what I consider the obvious, your solution is a non-starter for the overwhelming majority of the market and that people in the market for a WiFi system are going to choose an all-inclusive solution that is easy to set-up and use and performs better over saving the $200-300 for the cost of that system. But I'm sure you'll keep saying that's just me proclaiming it across the internet when pretty much everyone else in this thread has said the same thing......

7. I didn't say my solution was right for everyone, I've explicitly said the opposite. Not everyone is going to need AXE, if you don't have a device that needs it, why pay the tax? I've very clearly stated people should buy what their devices are capable of and you can buy a very capable 3 node AX mesh network system for $250-400, which is not unreasonable at all and offers great performance, coverage and ease of set up. And, its roughly the same price as a single powerful traditional router. Clearly, the system that offers better coverage and range TODAY and is expandable in the future for a little bit more money is going to have a longer useful life than a single node system that is borderline inadequate today with no upgrade path in the future.

You mentioned Ruckus bc you like bringing up irrelevant hardware that no home user is ever going to want or need, how much does a Ruckus AP cost that will do AXE speeds at 1Gbps+ anyways? And if your wife misses having a wired tether so much, she can absolutely carry around a usb-c or lightning to ethernet dongle along with a network cable, that's an option too! I bet she won't miss it so much after she realizes how that kind of defeats the purpose of having a mobile, thin, light media consumption device. Oh, it also uses a decent amount of power too and will reduce her battery life. Also, I can upgrade to 5Gbe too, I won't even need a switch that supports as many ports and the best part about it is my cheap mesh WiFi junk will STILL be faster than your enterprise grade WiFi stuff ;)

8. People are used to spending $200-300 every few years, until they upgrade to a mesh system anyways. :) Then its not about wholesale upgrades or replacement every few years, its about expanding and replacing nodes as needed, simple maintenance and far lower expenditure and TCO. So yeah if you already spent $200-300 every few years trying to improve your WiFi over the years, that's not much different than spending $600-900 and then not having to upgrade at all for 4-5 years. It all depends on perspective I guess.

I don't prescribe to buying a new mesh system every few years, as I said, I replace nodes or expand my network because its all the same mesh ecosystem that is both forward and backward compatible and also includes traditional routers. Every once in awhile I will do a big upgrade and I might not do another for another 5 years, but nothing goes to waste, I keep some nodes and pass along the ones I retired to friends and family to build out their networks. And the best part about it is I know it'll just work and I won't have to play free NOC 24/7/365 to keep them up and running. :D But I guess this is stupid in your opinion and playing with the latest and fastest wireless tech isn't [H] unless you think so right? :D

Again, how is it Enterprise gear better? I'm not arguing it isn't better in some ways, but you turn those features off at home anyways and most home users simply don't need those features. Enterprise gear certainly isn't easier to set up, it certainly isn't easier to maintain/administrate, it certainly isn't cheaper for most, and it certainly isn't FASTER when it comes to WiFi. It also isn't as robust in terms of coverage and handling multi-nodes and client hand-off. So exactly how is it better for the target audience, the home consumer?

WRT to WRT54G lol, it is obsolete useless tech and even mentioning was a waste of bits on the internet in 2022. The point is there's not a single application that would even make me or anyone else bother using it even for a 2.4GHz low bandwidth application to justify blowing the dust off of it, finding the wall wart, going back into its ancient and slow UI just to handle maybe turning on/off a lightbulb with Alexa when any mesh node is going to handle that along with high bandwidth 2.4/5GHz flawlessly. But I guess that's you in a nutshell, let's try and justify and find a use for obsolete tech so we can feel better about ourselves on the internets for not falling for the latest and greatest scheme to make you spend money!

As for the state of the world and studying various solutions lol, I take that as a No, you have never used Mesh crap, right? Duly noted. Ignorance is bliss.... :D
I never said there was a handoff standard. I just said that 802.11 was designed in such a way that handoffs were a part of the design if the setup was correct. Again, I think you really don't know what you were doing with your APs because all the 'bridge mode, some force you into wireless only bridge, some allow wired bridging' stuff you're ranting about is nothing that any of us that have set up APs have ever run across. I think you are also overestimating that everyone has 'done it wrong' the way you have because I've seen literally thousands of examples of systems set up correctly since this mesh stuff you're going on an on about has only existed for a few years. What do you think people did before that? How do you think seamless handoff worked prior to that?

1. Anything using a controller will do that--that's the cheat. Properly set up APs will be just as good as that's what was done prior to the cheats.
2. Actually probably less time than that depending on how many APs you want to set up. There's probably even apps that make it easier. You're willing to spend $200-$300 every so often and that's not the case with APs set up correctly. That's my point--you're blowing money. But a fool and his money...
3. I actaully do use these features as do a lot of people with more than a simple network. VLANs are super common now and I do use IPsec everywhere as well as the firewall features to block IoTs and anything else from 'phoning home'. These features exist in routers and mesh routers, but they're not as robust or as configurable as on enterprise gear.
5. Go daddy has been selling domain names for under $10 for years now. They used to sell them for 99 cents.
6. I've saved quite a bit over your setup, that's for sure. And one or two people who have explained their mesh experience doesn't put them into your camp--how easily you forget that one of them is using their mesh as APs only and has a fortigate doing all the heavy lifting...

If you're having firmware updates fail on enterprise--then again--you're doing it wrong. You read all the docs before doing the update to ward off problems, not just fly into it and then panic.

You've been proclaiming mesh is the best and only solution this entire time. This is false, and yet you insist that your truth is the only truth. Really arrogant.

7. No, that's exactly what you're saying--and again contradicting yourself.

Right...do you even know what a Ruckus AP is? I didn't think so. You'll never outrun my network because you'll always be behind the curve. But say whatever you need to in order to make yourself feel better about what you have...

8. You specifically said that you need to spend $200-300 every few years to upgrade your mesh, and now you change your story--which is it? You keep going back and forth. And maintenance?!? For what? I install something and it 'just works' because enterprise stuff once installed 'just works', especially when it's a nice overkill. And it's definitely been cheaper than $600-900. But you can keep upgrading and stay on that bleeding edge--I don't think people are monkeying around with their wifi as much as you think as the typically just want to use it.

So again you say you don't prescribe and that's exactly what you said earlier. You really like to say whatever you think fits your agenda? And if you want to 'play' with wifi, then that's on you and you're welcome to do so, but I think setting and forgetting is what most people want to do with wifi, whether setting up some APs, a single router, or a mesh system--they're not about 'playing' with it.

You would turn off enterprise features because your mesh handles what you need. Otherwise, your mesh is an AP and you set up your fortigate to handle the heavy lifting. You keep going on and on about your consumer wifi as if that's the only thing that matters. Convenience without security is a breech waiting to happen.

I think the only waste of bits in 2022 is the dribble you've been posting. You can't use anything older because you're too high and mighty with your bleeding edge and technosuperiority and it affects your status and esteem if you don't have the newest shiny. For me, it's about finding a tool that does the job, whether it's a 20 year old screwdriver or a new one, if it does the job that's all I need. I have no ego I have to feed. The WRT was an example for a point that you missed many posts ago, one of many points you missed many posts ago...

You have a serious problem with reading comprehension, don't you? Newsflash, denial is not just a river in Egypt. If you only want to hear your own echo, go the bathroom and start talking there as it will be much clearer.
 

wareyore

Hard DC'er of the Month November 2021
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I can't tell if this is any sort of deal or not.

Is this topic dead?
 

SamirD

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See, this is the problem with buying 2nd, 3rd hand used crap that some company's IT/Infrastructure Director already offloaded because it no longer meets the needs of their users. There's always a catch and there is no "free lunch" with these kinds of things, you're eating what someone threw away for a reason. But I guess I know how/why I get all of those unsolicited emails from "Hardware Recyclers" and "Asset Disposal" companys, there's clearly a market for this crap somewhere? :D I mean some even have the nerve to try and charge ME for taking our decom stuff like they are doing us a favor and that I can't just have an intern put it in a rubbermaid bin and take it to the recycle transfer station. :D

But yeah, need to read the fine print on this kind of crap, what good is a USB-C dock that supports 3x1080p in 2022?

"A single USB-C cable provides a plug-and-play connection for up to three 1080p monitors, with no need for driver installation, dongles, or adapters."

I'm sure I'll find similar obsolete or less than ideal stuff in the rest of your links. I mean I can find a bunch of cheap Dell docks with that e-port too for $20 when it used to sell new for $200, but then you look at what laptops it supports and its not such a deal anymore......

Also your "wireless everything isn't reliable" comment is certainly telling :D I'd disagree, a good wireless networking solution is reliable. And wireless dependability and speed is a big part of the reason devices are going more and more toward completely wireless. How many people bother tethering their phones to a dongle and then connect that to a wired network? Anyone? I use my phone more than I use any device nowadays and it is fully dependent on wireless dependability and in areas that have good WiFi, that is certainly more reliable than cellular.
Yes, no longer meets the needs of a particular set of users--not all users worldwide. :rolleyes: Yep, there are recyclers that charge you to haul stuff since a lot of times because they do the sanitization process for you--or are you just leaving all your logins and configurations intact when you send stuff to the transfer station? o_O

lulwut? Not sure if you're calling 3x 1080p displays obsolete, which is still the most popular desktop screen resolution in the US:
https://gs.statcounter.com/screen-resolution-stats/desktop/united-states-of-america

Not sure what you're talking about in terms of supported laptops since you posted about how they don't need drivers. I think you've been working with proprietary stuff so long that you think it's normal...

I think your statement '...in areas that have good wifi...' says it all. No one ever says this about wired technology--because it is reliable, period--not reliable 'in certain situations'.
 

SamirD

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Yeah and that's you not paying attention again. People are making those regular purchases to begin with and the fact there is no vendor compatibility or mesh upgrade path is why they become single purchases that become obsolete over time, rather than purchases that can be integrated into a more robust mesh ecosystem.

If its "just software" why can't all the fancy Enterprise companies on the NASQ get their acts together and make it happen for the tens of people who want something as good as lowly mesh using their used enterprise gear in their homes? :D

And, if/when all these different vendors work with IEEE and come up with an 802.11 WiFi extension STANDARD, that will be a great day as no one will have to deal with the cumbersome set-up and maintenance of traditional WiFi systems and everyone will be able to enjoy the ease of use, speed and reliability of Mesh WiFi.
I can just repeat it until it hits you in the face hard enough for you to get it, that is if you ever get your head up out of the sand:
what you recommended does not exist without vendor lock-in and regular purchases

They already did years ago incorporating controllers into routers for controlling branded APs. Where do you think the mesh controller concept came from? The thing is that most people don't use it or need it because enterprise APs have always been good to go once set up.

It will actually be a good day because then these mesh systems you keep harping about will cease to exist and you will have to find some other thing to feed your ego with.
 

SamirD

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Its an even worse example since the enterprise grade stuff he's calling the Ferrari comes with all the maintenance and headaches without any of the speed lol. Its more like having a Ferrari in upkeep but a Kia engine under the hood. :D
These points must look like planes from your view...:rolleyes: They seem to be very far over your head.
 

SamirD

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Well let's say I'm aware that some folks here think $200-300 is a lot of money...so I guess I can't generalize or assume a similar point of view for everyone when it comes to cheap or expensive. :D

As for my experience lol, enterprise router and AP are slower than dirt even with all bandwidth shaping and restrictions removed. You can feel free to prove me wrong with your Ruckus AP or whatever else you have in your home but I still haven't seen any proof from you that shows Gbps wireless speeds on your enterprise grade equipment, I'd even settle for WiFi 6 speeds.
You're finally aware of that point--good.

And that was because you were doing it wrong--otherwise enterprises would be buying consumer mesh systems to replace enterprise APs. :rolleyes: Nothing I can show you will ever change your opinion of 'mesh the best shiny'--and that's not my goal either as you're entitled to your opinion. I just don't want everyone to think that your opinion is the only truth as you have been touting.
 

SamirD

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I can't tell if this is any sort of deal or not.

Is this topic dead?
If you can find it at the price OP found it at, it's a pretty good deal as Best Buy has it for almost $50 more. But apparently it's something you may only find in-store as it's not listed on costco's web site.

As far as the topic, we went off into 'mesh is betr' land when someone started posting about them. :ROFLMAO:
 

chizow

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I never said there was a handoff standard. I just said that 802.11 was designed in such a way that handoffs were a part of the design if the setup was correct. Again, I think you really don't know what you were doing with your APs because all the 'bridge mode, some force you into wireless only bridge, some allow wired bridging' stuff you're ranting about is nothing that any of us that have set up APs have ever run across. I think you are also overestimating that everyone has 'done it wrong' the way you have because I've seen literally thousands of examples of systems set up correctly since this mesh stuff you're going on an on about has only existed for a few years. What do you think people did before that? How do you think seamless handoff worked prior to that?

1. Anything using a controller will do that--that's the cheat. Properly set up APs will be just as good as that's what was done prior to the cheats.
2. Actually probably less time than that depending on how many APs you want to set up. There's probably even apps that make it easier. You're willing to spend $200-$300 every so often and that's not the case with APs set up correctly. That's my point--you're blowing money. But a fool and his money...
3. I actaully do use these features as do a lot of people with more than a simple network. VLANs are super common now and I do use IPsec everywhere as well as the firewall features to block IoTs and anything else from 'phoning home'. These features exist in routers and mesh routers, but they're not as robust or as configurable as on enterprise gear.
5. Go daddy has been selling domain names for under $10 for years now. They used to sell them for 99 cents.
6. I've saved quite a bit over your setup, that's for sure. And one or two people who have explained their mesh experience doesn't put them into your camp--how easily you forget that one of them is using their mesh as APs only and has a fortigate doing all the heavy lifting...

If you're having firmware updates fail on enterprise--then again--you're doing it wrong. You read all the docs before doing the update to ward off problems, not just fly into it and then panic.

You've been proclaiming mesh is the best and only solution this entire time. This is false, and yet you insist that your truth is the only truth. Really arrogant.

7. No, that's exactly what you're saying--and again contradicting yourself.

Right...do you even know what a Ruckus AP is? I didn't think so. You'll never outrun my network because you'll always be behind the curve. But say whatever you need to in order to make yourself feel better about what you have...

8. You specifically said that you need to spend $200-300 every few years to upgrade your mesh, and now you change your story--which is it? You keep going back and forth. And maintenance?!? For what? I install something and it 'just works' because enterprise stuff once installed 'just works', especially when it's a nice overkill. And it's definitely been cheaper than $600-900. But you can keep upgrading and stay on that bleeding edge--I don't think people are monkeying around with their wifi as much as you think as the typically just want to use it.

So again you say you don't prescribe and that's exactly what you said earlier. You really like to say whatever you think fits your agenda? And if you want to 'play' with wifi, then that's on you and you're welcome to do so, but I think setting and forgetting is what most people want to do with wifi, whether setting up some APs, a single router, or a mesh system--they're not about 'playing' with it.

You would turn off enterprise features because your mesh handles what you need. Otherwise, your mesh is an AP and you set up your fortigate to handle the heavy lifting. You keep going on and on about your consumer wifi as if that's the only thing that matters. Convenience without security is a breech waiting to happen.

I think the only waste of bits in 2022 is the dribble you've been posting. You can't use anything older because you're too high and mighty with your bleeding edge and technosuperiority and it affects your status and esteem if you don't have the newest shiny. For me, it's about finding a tool that does the job, whether it's a 20 year old screwdriver or a new one, if it does the job that's all I need. I have no ego I have to feed. The WRT was an example for a point that you missed many posts ago, one of many points you missed many posts ago...

You have a serious problem with reading comprehension, don't you? Newsflash, denial is not just a river in Egypt. If you only want to hear your own echo, go the bathroom and start talking there as it will be much clearer.
There's no WiFi extension standard period lol. And there is no handoff standard either, correct, incorrect or whatever else, signal dropping off is not the same as handoff. If you drop signal on one AP and your client is then forced to find another AP, that's not a handoff, that's a dropoff. No wonder you think Wireless is unreliable. :D As for the rest, you should really learn to read the comments from others or read in general, at least 2 others mentioned bridging, and if you didn't have your head in the sand and actually used some of the hardware you claim never had any issues you would know, some mfgs instruct you to do so because there are no standards. But yes let's continue to ignore the other people who have chimed in with similar issues trying to bridge non-native routers as APs and ran into issues but also said all those issues went away once they went to native mesh. I guess they were doing it wrong too huh? :D

1. No, that's called good engineering for a problem that had no solution. What you call a "cheat" is simply called advancement in technology, but you're too busy clinging to ancient tech that was made obsolete for a reason. It didn't solve the problem!
2. Actually probably not, since you don't even need to leave the room or connect the AP to a physical drop to get it connected to the mesh Wifi, while you have to connect it to a NIC, log into it, disable DHCP, configure SSIDs etc. etc. for each AP. And where's your app that does this or are you once again, just wishing your out-of-date system came up with the same things that mesh did years ago? Because I know for fact mesh systems have apps that manage this, that's the whole point. Ignorance is bliss.....
3. No you don't, you just said subscriptions were a waste of time and money and anyone who was paying for them was wasting their money remember? There goes the better security aspect of using enterprise gear! And most mesh and home routers don't support different VLANs, that's actually one of the few valid criticisms I would say if someone wanted that feature to steer clear of mesh, but when I mentioned it you said I was doing it wrong the hard way, so which is it? Is it important or is it the wrong/hard way? I worked around it by using a separate different mesh network for segmentation but that's one of the few reasons I would even consider enterprise gear at home.
5. Yeah, they sell gibberish non-english, non-passphrase domains for $10, if have anything close to remotely useful or even a surname, nickname or handle and it'll run you hundreds if not thousands of dollars. But you knew that already right?
6. You think you saved but that's again because you don't seem to place any value to your time or effort lol. And there's no need to compare to me because as demonstrated multiple times over, the price range is the $200-400 it costs for a WiFi 6 mesh system that is within scope of the price of the deal in question, all of which you think is an expensive waste of money. Also, that design with the FortiGate is most likely because they need a traditional router at the head of a mesh system because that system doesn't have a dedicated primary unit that can handle multiple backhauls to each mesh node, I'm pretty sure that Eero system only has 2 ethernet ports per node so 1 backhaul and 1 port for a connected client. That's not the case with mesh systems where each node can function as a primary router or AP and the main reason I upgraded my system, so I could have a node as a primary router and take multiple backhauls, but also function as a hub with backhaul for wired clients in remote locations. And yes, those exist too in the $200-400 range with WiFi6 options.

Would you bet your life, even your job on an enterprise router not failing a firmware? lol I didn't think so. Btw, all this stuff, consumer, enterprise you name it is all cheap Chinese stuff as you call it, they're made in the same factories and even by the same companies. The Ruckus AP you love to name drop so much is made by who? Arris. The same company that makes my POS Verizon router. :D

I see you ducked the question about requiring passwords and having physical network security over your network though, so I guess that's a big NOPE. Better change those passwords from Admin and <blank> given your hardware is probably so old they didn't even bother to put anonymized credentials on the side of them.

There's no need to say Mesh is the best, but its certainly better than what you're suggesting for the overwhelming majority of people looking for an upgrade to their Wireless networking solution. And you want to talk about arrogance lol, I mean I'm not even sure how you can even mention stuff like used enterprise gear and hardwires to every room with a straight face when someone just wants better WiFi in their house. :D

7. I've consistently said Mesh for wireless is going to be the best solution for most users given the ease of setup, the reliability, the performance, the cost, and the lack of maintenance involved. There is no contradiction there. You keep trying to conflate my particular set-up due to its increased cost when I've repeatedly demonstrated there are systems for cheaper in the same price bracket ($200-400) that offer exactly the same qualities without the AXE component, which is irrelevant for most people since they don't have AXE devices. My AXE system is only relevant in demonstrating the fact it runs circles around your set-up despite you insisting your enterprise gear is far superior. You've said nothing to disprove these points, in fact, everything you've said has solidified those points. I mean look at your replies, they're completely off-base and non-starters. Hardwire to every room? Used Enterprise gear? LMFAO.

Is the Ruckus AP the one that costs thousands of dollars that they use in stadiums that no one needs in their house, but if they camp CDW warehouse deals long enough they can get for a fraction of the price just to still be slower than home-grade mesh networks? You don't even have one so why are you worshipping it? On that wish list? Maybe in 10 years when 5Gbe WiFi is a thing and some wasteful company recycles it, it'll trickle down to the price point you think is worth it so you can finally pick it up? Also I mentioned it already but its made by Arris, the same company that makes crappy Verizon networking hardware, guess its got some crap DNA too huh? :D

8. No I didn't, try re-reading as people =/= me. People = those who buy powerful single non-mesh routers every few years hoping it'll improve their spotty coverage every time they add higher numbers behind the AC, AX or AXE and more antennas, someone like the OP. I haven't done this since I bought my first Linksys mesh system ($350) 5 or 6 years ago? I added an additional mesh router 4 years ago ($150) because it had 4 ports for wired backhauls for those 3 nodes and I bought another 2 pack on sale at Costco ($400?) last year because I wanted WIFI6 to have 2 additional wired/backhaul hubs for multiple devices with ethernet cables. I ended up returning those because they just released the AXE8400 kit with 3x AXE nodes each with 4 ports and a 5Gbe WAN port and got a 25% trade-in credit to reduce the cost. Still way overkill for most and not something I would recommend for everyone, but I won't need to upgrade or spend anything for probably another 4-5 years. So yeah, add that up, a couple hundred every few years, similar to what someone is doing chasing that single powerful router, the difference is my mesh network has improved performance and functionality considerably, and I haven't had to change anything in my management portal, haven't had to re-pair devices, haven't had to do anything other than add the node and place it in the room I wanted to upgrade and name the node accordingly. Piece of cake!

Again, you still don't seem to understand. I'm not buying a new mesh system every few years. I'm improving the one I have which is literally the point I've made multiple times for choosing any wireless networking gear that can be integrated into an existing mesh ecosystem vs. something that cannot. One is a standalone sunk cost purchase with no upgrade path and the other is an on-demand incremental upgrade path that can be improved and built upon in the future. Its called upgrading piece by piece, not a wholesale replacement. That's the [H] way right? lol If you upgrade your GPU or CPU every few years are you upgrading your entire PC? Upgrade your cooler? Upgrade your SSDs? Upgrade your case? Is that prescribing to an endless cycle of new PC costs? And what are you rambling on about "playing with WiFi"? I'm surgically adding additional performance and functionality where I need it, not trying to blast it across the entire house and yard from a single AP. And, I'm also adding the ability to hardwire centrally located devices where they're needed instead of wastefully and foolishly running a hardwire to every room, especially when most of those rooms don't have a single device that has an ethernet port.

So you agree, Enterprise gear isn't actually better for home users who don't need the features of enterprise gear. Got it. And there you go again about security when you questioned why someone would pay the subscription costs, there goes the security benefit I guess lol.

WRT54G isn't the tool for the job in 2022, the fact you even brought up using it shows how out of touch you are. Just as the rest of your dribble is going to age extremely poorly, especially once your enterprise gear adopts similar (proprietary of course) Mesh WiFi technology. Uh oh, had to check, looks like its already in the works. https://docs.fortinet.com/document/...tion-guide/196651/wireless-mesh-configuration

Doesn't look like they've figured out wired backhauls yet for mesh networking for one VLAN over multiple interfaces without causing subnet conflicts, once they do that'll be a big game changer for the enterprise grade WIFI world. Maybe they can consult their lowly home grade junk subsidiaries for some tips on how this magic happens. :D

"I've studied and used" followed by "more systems than I can count" and "including precious mesh system". That can be either studied or used, or both. Given how little you know and how much you presume about mesh networking, not to mention the fact you still have a hard time understanding mesh networks can be added to and expanded upon, makes me think you're ducking the question and you've never used one. You certainly don't use one at home, you use your enterprise gear. So where have you used one and for how long? Or is it just under the "studied" category? Again, simple "yes I've used <whatever> mesh system" isn't so hard is it? :D
 

chizow

[H]ard|Gawd
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Messages
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Yes, no longer meets the needs of a particular set of users--not all users worldwide. :rolleyes: Yep, there are recyclers that charge you to haul stuff since a lot of times because they do the sanitization process for you--or are you just leaving all your logins and configurations intact when you send stuff to the transfer station? o_O

lulwut? Not sure if you're calling 3x 1080p displays obsolete, which is still the most popular desktop screen resolution in the US:
https://gs.statcounter.com/screen-resolution-stats/desktop/united-states-of-america

Not sure what you're talking about in terms of supported laptops since you posted about how they don't need drivers. I think you've been working with proprietary stuff so long that you think it's normal...

I think your statement '...in areas that have good wifi...' says it all. No one ever says this about wired technology--because it is reliable, period--not reliable 'in certain situations'.
Sanitize? lol. You trust some 3rd party to wipe your data before it leaves your premises? I bet you trust Geeksquad to work on your PCs and trust them with your data too? Not that it matters, data is encrypted at rest via Bitlocker and beyond that central management of devices is a thing, it literally takes pushing a policy via Intune, GPO, BigFix or whatever other enterprise management tool to remote wipe client PCs. And in the cloud, none of that is my problem, I hit delete and its Azure/AWS' problem. Work smarter not harder lol.

Awesome, news flash, not every company does their shopping in the dumpster or recycling bin to meet the changing need of their employees with bottomfeeder tech. There's a reason those docks were recycled, you do understand that right? 3x1080p is again, a non-starter when we've been using multiple 1440p or higher for typical office users and at least one UW and a vertical display for Devs. Pointing to some spectrum of low-end users, means what to someone who wants Thunderbolt 4 to drive 2x4K monitors?

Some of the docks you posted are in fact proprietary lol, they have specific proprietary ports that go to other proprietary IO ports on the docks themselves. They go obsolete every few years as laptops specs and form factors change and that's how they end up on CDW at 10% of the cost. If you look at the docks they specifically say which models they support, even some of the Dell USB-C docks you linked do need drivers with DisplayLink or whatever software emulation for graphics (junk btw). That's why standards are good, even if they are proprietary. You get a Thunderbolt 4 dock and you know exactly what its going to support and you also know any device with Thunderbolt 4 will also support it. USB-C 3-4 is a little bit better but still not perfect and before that, its a total crapshoot on what you get.

And no one here has commented about the reliability of their WiFi after moving to Mesh WiFi , just you on your enterprise gear saying you prefer wired because its more reliable. Hmmm.
 

chizow

[H]ard|Gawd
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Messages
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I can just repeat it until it hits you in the face hard enough for you to get it, that is if you ever get your head up out of the sand:
what you recommended does not exist without vendor lock-in and regular purchases

They already did years ago incorporating controllers into routers for controlling branded APs. Where do you think the mesh controller concept came from? The thing is that most people don't use it or need it because enterprise APs have always been good to go once set up.

It will actually be a good day because then these mesh systems you keep harping about will cease to exist and you will have to find some other thing to feed your ego with.
Again, if vendor lock-in means you're not buying one-off routers anymore and simply building upon a proprietary mesh system and improving it over time, what's the problem? Certainly better than the alternative, right?

You have it totally backwards. Mesh networking kits became popular and the single AWACS powerful gaming routers like Asus and Netgear/Nighthawk saw this and wanted to get in on the action and backported the functionality into their routers, allowing them to combine multiple routers into a mesh network. So yes, they're lucky they used compatible (not really that surprising since they are just ARM chips) hardware that allowed them to retrofit that software/firmware and functionality into their existing hardware. Which is again why I said, at least buy a router that has the capability to be integrated into a mesh network. Earliest hit for AiMesh is about 4 years ago, Mesh networking kits came out 5-6 years ago. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=asus+aimesh

And if you don't believe me you can argue with Dong about it: https://dongknows.com/asus-aimesh-overview/

LOL you keep thinking Mesh networking is going away when its completely the opposite, its here to stay and even Enterprise gear is trying to implement it. But yeah lets revisit these comments in a few years and see how they've aged. :D
 
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chizow

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1,033
These points must look like planes from your view...:rolleyes: They seem to be very far over your head.
That depends, are the airplanes actually flying fast in the air or are they getting passed by one of those luggage carts on the tarmac?

With your analogies you never know! :D
 

chizow

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
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You're finally aware of that point--good.

And that was because you were doing it wrong--otherwise enterprises would be buying consumer mesh systems to replace enterprise APs. :rolleyes: Nothing I can show you will ever change your opinion of 'mesh the best shiny'--and that's not my goal either as you're entitled to your opinion. I just don't want everyone to think that your opinion is the only truth as you have been touting.
Already covered these points, there are some people who might find $200-300 for networking equipment expensive but certainly not the majority in the market for high performance WiFi, and certainly not anyone clicking on a deal post for a $200 router in the title of a deal post lol. Just you, really.

And I'm doing it wrong but once again, you can't show us how fast your enterprise grade WiFi is because its SLOW. We've already covered why corporations don't use consumer-grade WiFi but you're either being ignorant to those facts (that we've already covered multiple times) or you're just being obtuse. I'd argue there's a lot of incentive for companies to ensure individual consumption and performance is slow in a corporate environment, who wants their employees to get fast WiFi speeds in the office when it costs thousands of dollars a month for a measly 512/512Mbps fiber circuit?

When's the last time anyone connected to WiFi at a stadium, sporting event, convention, hotel or other mass public venue, tested the WiFi and said, "wow those are super fast speeds". These devices are designed to serve multiple connections slowly, not a single fast connection. Something consumer-grade equipment doesn't have to worry about.
 
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chizow

[H]ard|Gawd
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If you can find it at the price OP found it at, it's a pretty good deal as Best Buy has it for almost $50 more. But apparently it's something you may only find in-store as it's not listed on costco's web site.

As far as the topic, we went off into 'mesh is betr' land when someone started posting about them. :ROFLMAO:
Oh wait so $200 is no longer an expensive waste of money and its a pretty good deal now huh? You're making progress! :D

I thought it went off the rails once you started complaining about $200-300 being expensive/waste of money, recommending wired connections to every room and used Enterprise networking equipment to someone who was just looking for better WiFi for $200 lol.
 
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DocNo

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Apr 23, 2012
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I've used Unifi AP's for years, but they have really fallen off with their firmware development - and their Wifi 6 offerings area joke - still only rocking gigabit ethernet ports :p

A friend was testing out (of all vendors) Grandstream - I thought they only did phones. I picked up a couple of Grandstream GWN7664 and I have been very impressed by the performance. The initial firmware upgrades were a nightmare, but once I got them upgraded you can now do a one button firmware update. Yeah I had to crawl around in the attic to drag some cables over to them, but with my MacBook Pro I can saturate 2.5GB to my NAS easily. Granted I don't have to do that very often, but it's way cool none the less :)

If you get a mesh system that had a dedicated radio to mesh with (like the original Aero units) and you aren't in a high density area where all the wifi channels are jammed then they can be just fine for most people. But if you can run some cable at all, having multiple APs hardwired is always going to be dramatically better. There's only so much radio spectrum and the more it's crowded the worse performance falls off - pretty quickly, in fact.
 

Wade88

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If you live in a small house or apartment this is fine. But as soon as your house gets big enough, you need a mesh system. Single point of WiFi is going to be more and more problematic as we start to use higher frequency signals like Wifi 6E (6GHz).
Why bother with a mesh at all when instead you can just fish ethernet everywhere and use a POE switch to feed it to access points on the ceilings?
Also chizow is horrifically verbose, I pity his keyboard.
 
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