Wanted: Surrogate for Neanderthal Baby

Matthew Kane

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Where do I sign my wife up :D

lmaoo:D

Human genetics is somewhat of a taboo, or at the very least very sensitive subject, where its difficult to get truly objective information.

All the studies I had read so far is that Neanderthal went extinct simply because they interbred with other humans that migrated into the region, which would merely make them a subspecies.

No one is wowed by the fact that a white Australian settler can interbreed with an Australian aborigine, but compare a stereotypical Western skeleton with that of an Australian Abo and then perhaps an African Pygmy and if it were any other animal it would be without question classified as related but distinct subspecies. But again because its such a sensitive subject, everything possible is done to minimize the recognition of racial differences within the homo species.

TL;DR version: Neanderthal baby is nothing special, and there are already too many humans on the planet. Spend the money on cloning and breeding mammoths, so I can have mammoth ribs like in the Flinstones.

hahaha, gold! Thanks for the laughs ducman.
 

Ducman69

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I was thinking... what if the Neanderthal is much stronger and faster yet less intelligent? Would people choose to have the Neanderthal just so their child could be a professional athlete?
They would be stronger, but slower (heavier, more bowed, shorter bones), and its very likely not less intelligent.

Modern depictions of Neanderthals has them looking more and more like shorter stocky modern Europeans, as we learn more just as our depictions of dinosaurs are becoming more accurate as time goes on.

We now know they did most likely have language, they had art, they had fire on demand and stone-age weaponry, they made clothes and rope and other tools, and we now know we are genetically very similar so most likely the brain structure was the same and they had slightly larger (not smaller) brains than cromagnon.

The biggest difference to cromagnon that moved in later was cultural. All evidence shows that Neanderthals lived in tiny groups, usually just family sized, and got almost all of their calories from meat. In the harsh cold climate of Europe at the time, this style of living and their bodies were ideally suited. Slowly but surely Europe got warmer and warmer though, more delicate plant life thrived, and cromagnons with their greater use of easily available plant calories, more calorie efficient and agile locomotion, and larger social groups that could easily overpower the small family units of neanderthals, meant that they were out-competed.

So as I said, its really no different than European settlers outcompeting, displacing, and to some extent interbreeding with Australian aborigines not because of any physical superiority, but because of a cultural one. Without the modern pressures of segregation and promotion of preserving cultural heritage, over a few thousand years you'd simply see the aborigines "go extinct" with the future population showing a fraction of their DNA that was added to the gene pool.
 

Super-D

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I wonder if it would legally be considered a human being, or if arguments could be made that human legal rights apply only to homo sapiens sapiens. It could be a legal gray area if Neanderthals were to be brought back. I mean, there are some people that want to apply rights to only certain types of humans, so it stands to reason that there are those who would want to deny rights to a whole new subspecies.
 

Ducman69

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You can't draw any conclusions from a single incomplete skull and nothing else. That was likely just an aberration caused by some kind of disease like those "water brain" poor souls that have big heads and eyes due to swelling.

Basically, what may seem like an ancient "super brain" hominid, was actually just a retard that could only count to potato.
 

BladeVenom

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Some day we will grow up enough as a race that we won't have religious zealots.

But other types of zealots are OK?

How many wars in the last century have been about power, politics, resources, and nationality vs. how many were religious wars?

People are willing to try to kill each other over who makes better Kool-aid, and you're worried about religious zealots?
 

lilbabycat

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Yep. We robbed, raped and murdered them. Assimilated porperly.
Survival of the fittest is a bitch. :D

And in 200 years, ___ people will say, what happened to the ____ people?

And the answer will be the same. And they will laugh just the same. But it's racist to make those claims today.
 

jiminator

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and thus Silent Michael was born (fringe) the human singularity with so much brain power he barely has to do anything to change the world
 

Serpent

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It would be nice if the woman in question could actually become famous for this. But, this could end up with her dead.

I don't know what I should say. On the one hand, I say good. If she's doing this for fame or whatever, then it's her own damn risk. I can't really say I'd be sad that she died if she chose it.

I don't like the mentality of doing something potentially stupid to gain fame. Like taht stupid lady that had 14 kids or some crap all in one go, hoping to score it big on tv, then failed and pretty much got people to feel sorry for her. I feel sorry for the kids who had to be born to a fuckin' idiot.
 

Godmachine

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Are you kidding? This woman will be famous for the rest of her life, as the mother of the first Neanderthal, even if the baby does end up with an IQ of 60

And it'll probably end up killing her during birth. So yea not worth it.
 

Ehren8879

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I wouldnt be surprised if the kid ends up clubbing its way out of her uterus.
 

dgz

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Dammit, there's no religious zealotry in stating that maybe we should leave the human genome alone.

Most of the world's major religions don't specifically spell out whether dabbling in genetic manipulation is a "sin" in that particular religion. But we are getting away from the issue already...

The issue is one of common sense. Look, scientists LOVE to see what can be done simply because it CAN be done. That's healthy. It's how you learn. But you have to consider the issues.

This is one easy example:

We truly have no idea how most of the genetic markers that make up a DNA strand work. Without fully understanding that first we could cause a horror story by cloning this ancient "man". Are we going to allow this person to procreate? Should we? His rights as a living human being say yes, absolutely.

Now what if we find out several generations later that a devastating genetic trait has just been reintroduced in the general population? It may be too late to find all those people. Then what do we do? Beyond that, what if you CAN find them all? Do we sterilize them against their will? KILL THEM? WHAT?

We have no respect for life at all if we walk down a path of that sort.

And producing a human being as a lab experiment? That's just plain wrong on a million levels completely separate from which religion you subscribe to. It sets a precedent that we can't turn back from. What if YOU were the one born to be a lab rat?

I would pirate the blu-ray rip of that movie, maybe even go to the theater if it's good. All these issues are serious and important. The way I see it, though, we gotta walk that path. Growing Sonmis to enslave them would be terrible, but what if end up growing empty shells for our souls/minds. Too many people than, as if 7b isn't enough already.

What do we do? Implications of actual control over life are unimaginable really.
 

Lunas

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yes human cloning i believe is banned by some international treaty
 

DejaWiz

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Neanderthals today. Dinosaurs tomorrow.

They already did dinosaurs. Didn't you see those documentaries about the island and gathering dino DNA from amber mines with all the celebrities they got to go visit there?
 

nutzo

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Are you kidding? This woman will be famous for the rest of her life, as the mother of the first Neanderthal, even if the baby does end up with an IQ of 60

I'm sure Octomom (or the many fame seeking Neanderthals like her) would be glad to sign up.
 

DogsofJune

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Where do I sign my wife up :D

Oh yeah, be the proud owner of Conan the cesarean while showing off the new "garage" to your friends......

"the head of the Neanderthal newborn was somewhat longer than that of a human newborn because of its relatively robust face," and Neanderthal women generally had a wider birth canal than human women. Neanderthal birth was simpler than human birth, because Neanderthal infants didn't have to rotate to get to the birth canal, but otherwise the processes were very similar. (Even so, I imagine all but the most adventurous of human women would opt for a C-section in this case.)

I'm envisioning hot dog down a hallway scenario after that action. :mad:
 

Ducman69

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I'm sure Octomom (or the many fame seeking Neanderthals like her) would be glad to sign up.
I'm pretty sure they have to duct-tape her thing up, otherwise at this point the babies might fall out prematurely if she uncrosses her legs.
 

Azhar

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Just what we need, another specie. Humans can't fucking get along with other races. What makes scientists think we're ready for another specie?
 

Outamyhead

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This opens the door for who knows what else, genetically modified children, at least they are asking for someone to volunteer at the moment...until they figure out how to just do it all in a lab environment anyway.
 

Ducman69

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This opens the door for who knows what else, genetically modified children, at least they are asking for someone to volunteer at the moment...until they figure out how to just do it all in a lab environment anyway.
Genetically modified children is smart. You could eliminate genetically transmitted disorders that way, so a kid doesn't have to grow up full retard. Pretty sure most parents of down syndrome or muscular dystrophy kids wouldn't have minded a little scientific intervention to filter out the unwanted gene.
 

Ducman69

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Just what we need, another specie. Humans can't fucking get along with other races. What makes scientists think we're ready for another specie?
'Cept they are most likely a sub-species, aka a race of humans, meaning it'd be like recreating a native-american if somehow they had been completely wiped out when Western colonists moved in.

Reason they believe that is because all non-African people have 1-5% shared DNA with neanderthal's per latests research. It could be a common ancestor too, but then of course that begs the question why then that Africans don't have any DNA in common with Neanderthal. Most likely scenario is that they were isolated by the desert and oceans while those further North at least to some extent interbred.

The real danger is that the Neanderthals would call up Jesse Jackson and demand reperations for their treatment by the cromagnons.
 

Lunas

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I'm pretty sure they have to duct-tape her thing up, otherwise at this point the babies might fall out prematurely if she uncrosses her legs.

well that just makes her the best candidate for being the surrogate to this mammoth sized baby that they are prepared to clone hell she may be one of the few to be able to not need to have it surgically removed an could give birth to it naturally...

My guess is an artificial womb would be used before they even attempted to do this.
 

nutzo

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Genetically modified children is smart. You could eliminate genetically transmitted disorders that way, so a kid doesn't have to grow up full retard. Pretty sure most parents of down syndrome or muscular dystrophy kids wouldn't have minded a little scientific intervention to filter out the unwanted gene.

Plus you could make sure your kid was smarter, faster and stronger than the other kids.

Eugenics wars anyone?
 

Azhar

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Plus you could make sure your kid was smarter, faster and stronger than the other kids.

Eugenics wars anyone?

Dibs on naming the first baby Sibahl Khan Noonien Singh!
 

Ducman69

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Plus you could make sure your kid was smarter, faster and stronger than the other kids.

Eugenics wars anyone?
Which is a bad thing how? Better than the current system, where the most successful people only have one kid (if any), and the full retard inbred rednecks, ghetto trash crackhoes, and dumb as dirt brainwashed uber religious have 10 kids a piece.

I'll take a Gattaca future over am Idiocracy one any day of the week.
 

nutzo

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Which is a bad thing how? Better than the current system, where the most successful people only have one kid (if any), and the full retard inbred rednecks, ghetto trash crackhoes, and dumb as dirt brainwashed uber religious have 10 kids a piece.

I'll take a Gattaca future over am Idiocracy one any day of the week.

You forgot to add snobby, liberal, arrogant pseudo-elitists to the list :)
 

LeninGHOLA

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Idiocracy isn't an actual scenario that would play out, scientifically speaking. Gattaca could.
 

gaspah

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i hope the funding for this experiment includes welfare for this person to live at a decent standard of living for the entirety of their life. It would be totally unreasonable to bring a species so close to modern human back to life if you weren't going to make up for their social and financial inadequacies for their entire life.

In fact i can just see this having the potential for too many problems. Are they still legally classified as human or as an animal. What if they're naturally more aggressive, will they be a danger to themselves or society. Its not like you can bring this back to life and then go oh this experiment failed lets murder this five year old or put it in a cage or whatever else.

I don't think this should be done at least until the ethics and the social and financial welfare issues have been considered some more.

I mean society is still racist. Who's going to hire a literal neanderthal.?
 

Arvig

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Considering science always shows them as being dumb or at least hulks .. they probably won't get many women signing up.

That's an outdated depiction. Okay, yes the only real way to know is to have an actual group of Neanderthals and test them, but currently they do feel that they were probably as smart as us.

Now if their brain developed differently and thus they excelled in areas we don't, but were mediocre in areas we excell in (and those areas were what was needed to keep the species from going extinct), that is possible. But no, a Neanderthal based on current hypothesis/convention wisdom wasn't less intelligent overall.

(As an aside, I don't advicate cloning them AT ALL, much in the same way I wouldn't advocate cloning a living person)
 

Ducman69

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Idiocracy isn't an actual scenario that would play out, scientifically speaking. Gattaca could.
Its a comical exageration, but how is the scenario in Idiocracy implausible? If you constantly breed the smallest wolves with one another, sooner rather than later you end up with toy chihuahas. Likewise, if you constantly breed the dumbest people with the dumbest people, you'll end up with Idiocracy. And Gattaca by contast is less likely considering the history of politics and easily resolved with simple laws.
 
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