Has valve said anything about supporting the touch controllers on Steam VR?
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Vive Outselling The Rift By As Much As 2-to-1
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Has valve said anything about supporting the touch controllers on Steam VR?
I have a Rift. I like the Rift; I've tried both, and I find the Vive to be much less comfortable, with a much narrower sweet spot. Full room experience...? Honestly neither of the current sets are wonderful for this -- the cables are an ever-present menace, and for most people the 'clear space' requirements are onerous. I've heard rumours that the Rift + touch does room scale fine (heck, the Rift with the single camera works fine within a metre - metre and a half), but since it's not on the market yet there's no point in guessing what's what. We'll see.
I do agree that there's a dearth of titles for VR in general.
We tend to get a little too polarized about these things. Both products should succeed, they both have their positives and their drawbacks.
Anyway, uh... yay VR!
I do agree that there's a dearth of titles for VR in general.
We tend to get a little too polarized about these things. Both products should succeed, they both have their positives and their drawbacks.
Anyway, uh... yay VR!
dr.stevil
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lol my nephew was heartbroken by this. Finally saved up enough money to get himself one only to find out they're backordered again. On the plus side, he was able to get one locally at a Microsoft store so for anyone else that wants one and doesn't want to wait.
Yup. Valve added support last month.
I think there might still be some issues but AFAIK, the touch controllers work now
Duh. It's early days. Has to start somewhere.
Though there's no excuse Valve hasn't come out with a firstparty VR title, no excuse.
PanzerBoxb
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Shows as In Stock on their website but I ordered mine over the weekend and they still haven't shipped it.
grifter_66
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I'm still getting a sold out notice when I go to my cart on the Vive web site.
PanzerBoxb
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Weird. I just tried again with both Chrome and IE. Both times I was able to hit their main page, select "Order Vive", select US, and have it show as "In Stock" in the cart.
grifter_66
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You have to hit the checkout button... or they just don't like me.
EDIT: Weird, I closed out the window that popped up telling me I couldn't buy because it was out of stock and it let me proceed.
Valve needs to wait a bit before making a AAA title for VR, but more little toys like The Lab would be great. If they blow their load by going all-in on a VR game this soon, it will raise the expectation bar too high for indie devs to compete with at this stage, which makes for very disappointed consumers. They need to give the current people working on games a wide berth to avoid eclipsing them. Right now, Battle Dome is a great Vive title with an active player base, but everyone would just stop playing it if they could play Left 4 Dead 3 in VR instead, because it would look and play so much better.
If you could get a Valve game for the Vive right now, all of the reviews for the Vive would say it's cool but only has one really good game. Don't expect any AAA roomscale games until 2017.
grifter_66
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This makes absolutely no sense. You don't want the Vive to get a good game so that all the shitty games don't look as shitty as they actually are? That really is kind of stupid. Getting a good AAA level VR title would hopefully force these other devs releasing glorified tech demos for $20 to up their game. A game doesn't need to be AAA to be good but the existence of some good AAA games to compete with are better for everyone.
Most of them can't afford to right now. Look at the top selling roomscale games on Steam right now. Most of them are made by a team of 4 or less and about a third, like Battle Dome, are made by only a single person. It's really important that these types of titles have their time in the sun, because they will grow into the VR development studios of tomorrow if given time to incubate. If they are shut out too soon, we will close the door on a huge community of new people who are excited about developing in this space. Right now, one developer can afford to quit their day job and make VR games. This will become much more difficult if they are competing against the likes of Valve and EA.
At this stage in the game, the market is more important than the success of any one title or developer. This same thing happened with mobile phone/tablet apps and games over the last 10 years. We can grow a healthy market with many options if we give it time. If that's not what you are into, wait until late 2017/early 2018 for the next iteration of VR, which will launch on the back of AAA titles.
Valve understands this deeply, and it's why the Vive doesn't come with any titles that set the bar higher than what a small team can produce at this time.
MisterDNA
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That's why I GTFO.
MisterDNA
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Holy shit... So I have a chance. I've waited 20 years for this.
grifter_66
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Making a good game is about talent and skill not money. There are plenty of great games that were developed by small teams that don't have any where near the budget of even the cheapest AAA game. Buying crap just promotes the creation of more crap, the mobile/cell game industry is a perfect example of this, it's filled with cheap, pay-to-win crap because you mom and little sister keeps throwing them money. Right now the VR market is full of shit titles, not because all the developers are small indie teams but because talentless hacks are trying to cash in on the newness of VR hoping people will buy their shit because they either don't know any better or they don't have a choice. There are a few really good titles for VR and those titles would in no way be threatened by a few quality AAA games.
Your first sentence is only true for those lucky enough to be financially independent. I know many people who make quality software who need a regular paycheck. Taking 6 months off work would be disastrous to their home and family life, even if they created a successful product.
I guess we just disagree about what constitutes crap when it comes to VR games. I think there are a lot of quality titles available right now. If you look at what is available now and believe it to be crap, wait 16-20 months and the types of titles you envision will be available from all of your favorite studios who currently make non-VR games.
If you do not think that games like Battle Dome, Out of Ammo and The Nest would be heavily threatened by the types of games Valve can produce, you are living under a rock. If you believe those sorts of games to be crap, it helps explain your point of view, but I completely disagree with your assessment of the quality of those titles.
MisterDNA
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Maybe this is why I built Dashcat, after all? Unreal Swarm and all that.
Still no release date for the Oculus Touch Controllers - I hope they don't have the same problems with availability just like the rift when it comes out..
Can one use the SteamVR lab without using touch controllers? I couldn't even move in there with the XBOX controllers and the RIFT
Can one use the SteamVR lab without using touch controllers? I couldn't even move in there with the XBOX controllers and the RIFT
Tamlin_WSGF
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Wareable did a nice comparison between the Rift and Vive:
Oculus Rift v HTC Vive: Which VR headset should you get?
Much of the differences between the Rift and the Vive are negligable.
The, in my opinion very large, difference between those headsets is the option to do roomscale VR. I have used DK1 and DK2 extensively and always tried to stand up a bit. Yes, cables are a menace and so is the need to wear a headset to begin with. But, finally being able to interact more naturally with the virtual enviroment is a big step up. The teleport movement system makes it also more comfortable when moving over larger distances and reduces the space requirements much more. Movement is one of the biggest VR sickness reasons and the HTC Vive reduces and in many native VR games, solves this problem.
Vanishing Realms is a prime example of this. Picking up objects with your handcontrollers and putting them in your backpack is an immersive experience. Since one of the major points of using VR is the ability to see the scale of objects and feel your own height, games taking advantage of that is really adding to the immersion. Being able to stand, face to face towards your oponent with sword and shield in hands, blocking attacks with shield and sword using your own hands ... You won´t get the same immersion sitting down, pressing buttons on an Xbox controller or even sitting down with Oculus touch controllers.
A major reason why people would buy the Oculus touch controllers when they come, is because they want to interact more naturally in the VR enviroment. People want to be able to touch and move around as much as they can in the VR worlds and Oculus needs to get their own roomscale experience ready ASAP.
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I'm very interested in getting a Vive, but think it needs more time to develop more games.
Are there any games that have good replay ability as opposed to a cool demonstration of its capabilities? I have read up a little about VR and most games seem to look like mini games almost
Are there any games that have good replay ability as opposed to a cool demonstration of its capabilities? I have read up a little about VR and most games seem to look like mini games almost
MavericK
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Have been strongly considering pickup up a Vive after playing with one, but I might wait to see what the Oculus Touch controllers bring. I haven't had a chance to try the Rift, but from what I hear the lenses are a bit better? There is definitely a very small "focal" point in the center of the lenses with the Vive, where if you are even a little bit off-center everything looks blurry.
Elite: Dangerous and Project Cars have significant replay value (many people have put 100+ hours into each) but both are existing titles that have been in development for years and have robust VR support that was added at a later date.
If you want long-form games built from the ground up for VR you still have a bit of a wait.
I agree that moving around and interacting more naturally can be huge. The current iterations of this are fairly lacking, but I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes in 2nd and 3rd gen. Specifically for actual, physical movement - warping around areas is a bit of a kludge, but without some type of omni-directional treadmill (yes, I know there are companies developing variations on this theme, I just haven't seen one that allows for somewhat natural movement yet) I don't see a solution yet. Elite Dangerous, Project Cars, and a lot of the better, currently available titles are stationary (or next to stationary) for a reason.
Tamlin_WSGF
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I agree with much of what you say, but it seems you are missing the point entirely.
HTC Vive have a working AND enjoyable roomscale solution out there already. Games taking advantage roomscale VR like Vanishing realms, Hover Junkers, Fantastic Contraption, Water bears VR, Budget Cuts and more really adds to the virtual reality experience. Sure, like with everything VR, it can be improved upon, but the point is and I know I am repeating myself here: roomscale works and it is enjoyable. Oculus needs to get their own roomscale solution out ASAP.I agree with much of what you say, but it seems you are missing the point entirely.
I haven't missed it, I just have a different interpretation of it.
Current state, (in my opinion) 'room scale' doesn't work well yet. Emphasis on the well. When I can move around without worrying about tripping over or (nightmare scenario) stepping on a cord and ripping it out of the headset, and in a way that allows me to avoid obstacles in the room (e.g., pets, kids, furniture, wives, desks, pizza boxes), I'll be happy. In the mean time, stationary or static games (again, in my opinion) are more immersive and work better.Hell, forget walking around: I would love to get onto my bike, strap on the headset, and be riding through the hills in Italy, or through Skyrim, or whatever. Not available yet. In fact, the company that was working on something like that seems to have disappeared.
I 100% agree that Oculus needs to get their Touch controllers out sooner rather than later; with that comes the second camera, and a more robust room tracking approach.
grifter_66
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I doubt we will see the Touch controllers before October. My guess is a November launch, just in time for Christmas. I also think they should add the option for another sensor, having one in the center and one on each side would allow you to expand the coverage area quite nicely and while it still won't be as good as the Vive's it will be good enough.
l88bastard
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MavericK
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^^ At least they're outside...
Tamlin_WSGF
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I haven't missed it, I just have a different interpretation of it.
Hell, forget walking around: I would love to get onto my bike, strap on the headset, and be riding through the hills in Italy, or through Skyrim, or whatever. Not available yet. In fact, the company that was working on something like that seems to have disappeared.
I 100% agree that Oculus needs to get their Touch controllers out sooner rather than later; with that comes the second camera, and a more robust room tracking approach.
I very much disagree here. The HTC Vive roomscale solution delivers well and is a very robust solution within what it can give within a roomscale limitation.
* The range of the lighthouses are very generous even without a sync cable, with a sync cable, it can be extended even further.
* You can yourself define your "play area", which means you can define a smaller area within a larger area, giving room to stop when things get active.
* There is a chaperone system in place, warning you when you leave your play area.
* Games like Vanishing realms autopause the game when you leave the play area.
* Since roomscale only gives you a roomscale size of free movement, there is a teleport system in place if you wish to move outside your play area which removes most of the movement sickness you can get when artificially moving.
* Tracking system of the lighthouses are very accurate, even if you sit on the floor. Combined with tracked handcontrollers, you get a lot of options to interact with the enviroment within your play area.
*Seated experiences are great when the games are having cockpits like Project cars and Elite dangerous. But, in games where you play a moving character in first person, you get simulator sickness much faster. 3rd person can work, but first person can suck bigtime as a seated experience. Roomscale actually solves a seated problem.
* The breakout box is powered and both protects your computer from ripping the cord out directly from your GPU and it can also extend the reach of your headset if you wish to roofmount your cable if you are afraid to stumble on it.
Your pets, kids,furniture, wife, desk and pizzaboxes are your limitations, not a limitation of the roomscale solution itself.
Take a look around in this very forum in the HTC Vive thread. Though the Vive also have seated experience, the most popular games are actually the roomscale ones. People want to get up and move. With HTC Vives solution, its actually fun to use and not only a gimmic. Within a roomscale area, you have your virtual playground. Oculus needs to get that for the Rift. I have been using Dk1 and DK2 since they came and I have much more fun now that I finally can move around in the virtual world myself, even though its limited to roomscale size.
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As I said, we just have differing opinions
I'm not even saying you're wrong, but then... neither am I.* Range is somewhat irrelevant - my argument is that the cord hazzard + the lack of movement options makes room scale more 'gimmicky' than anything else. Again, I need to emphasize this, MY OPINION. It's a half way solution - you can move in an extremely limited area, and have to teleport elsewhere. As I stated before, when an option like an omni-directional treadmill or the like is available, I can see fully interactive VR becoming more than just another Wiimote instance.
* defining the play area, chaperone, pausing... again, in my own opinion, until we can fully move in the environment, it's more gimmick than feature.
All that said, I don't begrudge your enjoying the roomscale feature as currently implemented; when the Wii was released, I was waving my arms around the room like everyone else. I would just like to see a much more robust implementation before I jump on board.
Tamlin_WSGF
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As I said, we just have differing opinions
* Range is somewhat irrelevant - my argument is that the cord hazzard + the lack of movement options makes room scale more 'gimmicky' than anything else. Again, I need to emphasize this, MY OPINION. It's a half way solution - you can move in an extremely limited area, and have to teleport elsewhere. As I stated before, when an option like an omni-directional treadmill or the like is available, I can see fully interactive VR becoming more than just another Wiimote instance.
* defining the play area, chaperone, pausing... again, in my own opinion, until we can fully move in the environment, it's more gimmick than feature.
All that said, I don't begrudge your enjoying the roomscale feature as currently implemented; when the Wii was released, I was waving my arms around the room like everyone else. I would just like to see a much more robust implementation before I jump on board.
Of course its your opinion, and our personal opinions differs. We can agree to disagree there. But, in the technical matters, you are wrong.
Range is not irrelevant. That the sensors have a large range, means you can define a smaller range within and create some buffer towards walls. Its a solution to make roomscale work better.
Teleporting when you are outside your defined "play area" is a solution to make roomscale work better. Movement with a d-pad can cause VR sickness, so for many, teleporting is a better option. Seated or roomscale, if you want to move in first person not sitting in VR space, teleporting is easier for the brain to handle.
Chaperone is again a solution to make roomscale work better. You can turn it off, but it gives you a peace of mind when you use VR.
The cord is not a good thing. I would prefer cordless, but you cant use a headset without it, since tech is not good enough to have it cordless without introducing more weight and higher latency. I cant count how many times I have twisted the cord around the armrests of my chair or under the legs around the chair or around the chair. It sucks regardless if you sit, stand or walk around. On the HTC its heavy, so it adds to the weight if you dont attach it to the belt. I have been wondering if I should mount it on the roof. But, because of the breakout-box of the HTC Vive, I am not afraid of the wires getting pulled out of my PC. Calling it a hazzard is a word I would never use though. Having a cord doesn´t, even though it would be better without, make the roomscale experience not viable anymore.
We are talking about a roomscale solution. As a roomscale solution, the HTC Vive have a pretty solid working experience. We agree that your physical movements are confined to a smaller area instead of full freedom of movement that you might get with an omnidirectional treadmill, but at least you are not confined to an even smaller area; the chair. According to your metric, lack of movement options makes roomscale more 'gimmicky'. Being confined to a seated experience would then be even more 'gimmicky' if to follow your reasoning. Now "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" its said. HTC Vive can do both seated and roomscale. Google what people list as their favorite VR experience and you will see more often then not that its a roomscale experience. That people are actually enjoying themselves and are having fun in roomscale, is means that you should acknowledge the HTC Vives roomscale solution is actually working well generally speaking, though you personally prefer only to have a seated experience until a solution with an unlimited range of movement is available. Don´t you agree?
Roomscale is a step-up (pun intended) from being confined to a seated only experience. Though I would also prefer to be able to move unrestriced, at least I got out of the chair and got myself a little playground where I can interact in VR. We are only in the beginning of VR and the Vive and the Rift are both CV1. I´ll probably buy whatever CV2 that looks most promising. But, it would be a dealbreaker if one of the headsets were seated only now that I have gotten the taste for roomscale.
Kinda pointless arguing with Charlie on this issue. He invested in the Rift so he's doing his best to minimize the enormous advantage the Vive has over it. Gimmick?? Nonsense. I've had dozens of people gamers and non-gamers alike try my Vive and not one has come away calling it a gimmick. Can the implementation be improved? Of course. It's first gen technology that will undoubtedly improve. But it's still an revolutionary versus evolutionary leap in game immersion. Not a gimmick.
lol, yes I'll agree. Generally speaking room scale is working as well as it currently can, while I personally (and everyone else, I'm sure) would like to see it evolve into something more 'all encompassing'.
Honestly, my biggest paranoia with room scale as it's currently designed is thoughtless children. Mine like to run right up to me, and I'd hate to accidentally backhand them across the room while I swing a virtual sword or the like. Might have to put down a safety barrier...
Going forward, I don't see either company (or for that matter, any company coming out of the woodworks) going for a 'just seated' experience.
Yup, I bought a Rift. You seem to think I hate all things Vive because of this fact, though. I think both products are well made. Comfort-wise, I find the Rift much easier to wear, especially for extended periods, but I by no means hate the Vive.
As to my gimmick comment, I want to clarify: when I said that, I meant in the same way as the Wiimotes. When the Wii originally came out, people were flailing their arms all around the room having a lot of good fun. When that initial 'wow' factor wore off, however... most people just flicked their wrists. The current implimentation of room scale seems like this to me. With future improvements (wireless headsets, etc.), I sincerely hope it will improve. Currently, it's more proof of concept.
I'll buy whatever product is best when the next gen comes out. Honestly, I don't care about the brand that I have, I'm more interested in getting the most enjoyable experience I can for myself. Just like everyone else here.
l88bastard
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Comparing a gimmicky Wiimote to roomscale / motion controls in VR is the stupidest thing I have heard in a long while.
Perhaps I just need to spend more time with it then. I have a friend with a Vive and I've played it for a few hours, as he has with my Rift. I definitely like the room scale piece, and as I said I'll buy the Touch controllers when they're released, but I see an awful lot of similarity. It's completely possible my opinion might change with more time spent. I'll see about a weekend swap for more "extended" testing.
I'm curious about why you think it's a stupid comparison, but that conversation might be best in another thread?
Youn
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gimmicks are usually things that simply don't work well... like the wiimotes, they didn't really deliver 1-to-1 movement like many people wanted...
Vive/Touch can do that though, and already proved to be accurate enough... so in that sense it's not a great comparison...
Vive/Touch can do that though, and already proved to be accurate enough... so in that sense it's not a great comparison...
MavericK
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The Vive motion controllers were nearly flawless when I used it...they claim sub-mm accuracy and I believe it.
Nenu
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The only thing I found acceptable about the Vive was the controllers and roomscale.
They have done that right.
The uncomfortable fit, weight, weight distribution, earphones, small focus area and image streaking are sub par.
Not worth as much as the Rift yet they charge 150% of the Vives price!
I got a refund, waiting for round 2 when hopefully some other headsets are viable. (Facebook T&Cs are unacceptable)
They have done that right.
The uncomfortable fit, weight, weight distribution, earphones, small focus area and image streaking are sub par.
Not worth as much as the Rift yet they charge 150% of the Vives price!
I got a refund, waiting for round 2 when hopefully some other headsets are viable. (Facebook T&Cs are unacceptable)
Umm $600 versus $800? 150%. Your math skills are lacking. And do you really think the Oculus controllers aren't going to cost likely around the $200 price point? The prices are a non-issue as they're priced comparably for what you're getting.