Vive Outselling The Rift By As Much As 2-to-1

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I debated on whether or not I should post this link because of the complete lack of data supporting this claim but, when it comes right down to it, discussing rumor mill stuff like this is still kinda fun. ;)

With a little extrapolation and a little guesswork some reports are stating the Vive headset is the current frontrunner in the slow-going VR race. Virtual reality apologists Road to VR are suggesting the HTC Vive is closing in on a user install base of some 100,000 units, while its estimates place the Oculus Rift at a figure around half that.
 

Dwango

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I'm shocked that Oculus has even managed to ship that many considering lots of people are still waiting on announcement pre-orders of the thing. I'm glad they back-tracked on the hardware detection DRM though.
 

Sonicks

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I can see that. The Vive is a more complete VR experience out of the box than the Rift.

Oculus dropped the ball on the touch controllers.
 

Shmee

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People are going to go where the games are, and Steam has pretty much all the games and the better hardware, so Oculus is kind of screwed.
 

Orthello

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Had a go on the vive the other day and i must say its immersive , apart from looking at tv like graphics ( the resolution limitations are quite noticable ) the actual potential looks huge. No motion sickness and i literally felt like i was in a different world with the head set on to off. I was playing the starhanger demo .. not sure its proper name. It was quite a bit of fun. Interesting it seems that Valve / HTC have just outgunned Oculus at this stage.

Having said all that i will probably wait for mark 2. There also seems to be no real hardcore game support so far and i don't like waiting for support. Rather it was there from day 1.
 

Spidey329

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If I was in the market, I'd go with the Vive. Seems to be a more complete experience.

LinusTechTips held a poll on what people would buy and out of 4000+ votes, Vive won by something like 85%-15%.

This is probably one of the bigger tech fumbles we've seen. Oculus was the first mover, yet got beat, bad. I understand the position of wanting to wait until the market can support it (better GFX cards), the units are cheaper (cheaper screens), motion-sickness was under control, and games rolled support - but while waiting, they didn't finish their motion controls and enacted policies that pissed the educated consumers off. No excuse for that.

Furthermore, in the interim, why not partner with someone like Dave & Busters or Gameworks. Get an arcade version in there. Commercial units can be balls to the wall powerful in terms of GFX power. This is a tech people need to experience and arcades haven't had any major tech upgrades in years.
 
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funks

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I wonder if the Project Cars folks will release their numbers? Given that they support both Rift and Vive with the latest patch.

I got a Rift and still waiting for the touch controller.
 

tetris42

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Well this is what happens when your competitor has supplies, but you don't.
 

Axehandler

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I purchased a VIVE and Still loving it... However.. I agree with the lack of AAA titles. most of the games on steam feel more like tech demos.... there are a few "decent" games. but not many yet.
 

jnemesh

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Unsurprising if true. The Vive has superior hardware, touch controllers that ship with the unit (instead of SOMETIME in 2016 at an undisclosed price), better support from developers, and is an OPEN platform. Oculus could have still been competitive, even without their "Touch Controllers"...but only if they remained open, and could ship units. The fact that they are STILL months behind on their shipping AND have borderline spyware in their Oculus Home software AND chose to implement a hardware checking DRM scheme to try to force users to their platform...nope. 3 strikes and YER OUTTA HERE! Bye Oculus, nice knowing you!
 

jnemesh

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I purchased a VIVE and Still loving it... However.. I agree with the lack of AAA titles. most of the games on steam feel more like tech demos.... there are a few "decent" games. but not many yet.

I disagree! There are a few "AAA" games available, including Project Cars and Elite Dangerous...but I am getting the most enjoyment out of HoverJunkers and Space Pirate Trainer! There is plenty to keep me occupied currently, and I have another 5 or 6 titles on my wishlist. I AM looking forward to more "big name" developers and publishers getting on board (Gimme that Star Trek Bridge game...NOW!), but I also understand that it will be months before we see anything like that. These games take TIME...and the developers are just NOW getting up to speed. So be patient and enjoy what IS out there...you might just find a game or experience that you wouldn't have paid much attention to in a sea of BIG GAMES, but will pay attention to now with the limited selection...and one of these "small" games might just surprise you!
 

Axehandler

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I disagree! There are a few "AAA" games available, including Project Cars and Elite Dangerous...but I am getting the most enjoyment out of HoverJunkers and Space Pirate Trainer! There is plenty to keep me occupied currently, and I have another 5 or 6 titles on my wishlist. I AM looking forward to more "big name" developers and publishers getting on board (Gimme that Star Trek Bridge game...NOW!), but I also understand that it will be months before we see anything like that. These games take TIME...and the developers are just NOW getting up to speed. So be patient and enjoy what IS out there...you might just find a game or experience that you wouldn't have paid much attention to in a sea of BIG GAMES, but will pay attention to now with the limited selection...and one of these "small" games might just surprise you!


Ohh if I didn't have faith and patience, I doubt I would have spent the Money on a VR headset already. :)

I agree there are a few good games, heck I still go back and play the lab :) but you also have to agree.. TODAY.. there are a lack of good AAA games.
 

grifter_66

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I think the shipping debacle is the biggest issue. I would have ordered an Oculus last month if they shipped right away but because I'd have to wait until the end of August anyway I may as well use that time to save a few extra bucks and grab a Vive. The only way I'd get an Oculus at this point is if they announced the exact date of their controllers release and that everyone who orders a Rift before that date will get the controllers for free. We all know that won't happen.
 

NickJames

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They fucked up the shipping, they locked down their software, they put spyware in their shit, they fucked up the shipping, they didn't bother to include touch controllers which really add to the experience, there's no roomscale, the demo units sucked and only had 1 actual game which was "The Climb"..., did I mention they fucked up the shipping?
 

B00nie

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Unsurprising if true. The Vive has superior hardware, touch controllers that ship with the unit (instead of SOMETIME in 2016 at an undisclosed price), better support from developers, and is an OPEN platform. Oculus could have still been competitive, even without their "Touch Controllers"...but only if they remained open, and could ship units. The fact that they are STILL months behind on their shipping AND have borderline spyware in their Oculus Home software AND chose to implement a hardware checking DRM scheme to try to force users to their platform...nope. 3 strikes and YER OUTTA HERE! Bye Oculus, nice knowing you!

It only needed the one strike of Facebook buying it. Bye Oculus, no need to pay to get spied.
 

T_A

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The only reason is supply , if HTC has more units to sell than more units will be sold , both are probably sold out.
 

CEpeep

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So much of me wants to dismiss this as the paranoid braying of conspiracy nuts, but it's most likely absolutely true.

The terms of service for the Rift have everything you need to know. Facebook giving themselves access to your eye-tracking data doesn't matter much when you're just playing games, but once you start browsing the web or doing productivity work in VR, it opens a whole can of worms that ought to stay welded shut. Oculus wants to be the mechanism by which people interface with a computer. Facebook has found a way to physically insert itself in between the user and their computing device.
 

Bigc208

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Oculus dropped the ball on pretty much everything but the quality of the device itself. Never thought a well funded, perfectly positioned company, could muck up a product release this badly. I got my Rift after 6 months waiting. Almost cancelled it twice. Got it for Elite and DCS. Not having Touch Controllers was not an issue for me when I ordered. Have a Leap motion attached to the Rift. Combined with the Rift it's brilliant. Having a set of hands in VR completes the experience and shows what's potentially possible. Oculus should've put a Leap Motion in the box instead of that wireless controller. Right now the Rift VR experience (outside of flight and space sims, in my humble opinion) is incomplete without Touch Controllers. Oculus is extremely lucky that there are no good VR Games, yet, that need Touch Controllers. If they don't catch up by the time the Killer Apps arrive (Christmas?) it's game over for CV1.
 

Sonicks

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The terms of service for the Rift have everything you need to know. Facebook giving themselves access to your eye-tracking data doesn't matter much when you're just playing games, but once you start browsing the web or doing productivity work in VR, it opens a whole can of worms that ought to stay welded shut. Oculus wants to be the mechanism by which people interface with a computer. Facebook has found a way to physically insert itself in between the user and their computing device.

You know, for all the nefarious uses one could come up with that Facebook can do X and Y using your data, there's also practical research that can be had in anonymous ways. For example, you explain that they can track your eyes in productivity work and web browsing but what if that ushers in a much more efficient UI or the worlds next window manager that is the most intuitive ever, etc.. etc...

People tend to jump to fear because it's easy to fear but that shouldn't be the only response (however hard it is to ignore that Facebook is a company that wants your data for ad dollars at the end of the day).
 

CEpeep

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You know, for all the nefarious uses one could come up with that Facebook can do X and Y using your data, there's also practical research that can be had in anonymous ways. For example, you explain that they can track your eyes in productivity work and web browsing but what if that ushers in a much more efficient UI or the worlds next window manager that is the most intuitive ever, etc.. etc...

People tend to jump to fear because it's easy to fear but that shouldn't be the only response (however hard it is to ignore that Facebook is a company that wants your data for ad dollars at the end of the day).

Oh, I'm well aware. UX research is a large part of my job. I'm also not against companies monitoring for UX purposes on principle (see some of my posts about W10 telemetry). The problem here is that Facebook as a company does not differentiate between UX research and marketing, because it would be counter to their business model. If you give something to Facebook for them to do research on, they can and will turn around and sell it to someone else, or otherwise find a way to monetize it.

As a researcher myself, there are better companies to support in this endeavor. Valve and HTC are doing the same type of research, but have a corporate structure that isolates this research from being sold or monetized because ads and heuristics associated with them are not part of their business model. Microsoft is a little different, but they've gone out of their way to make sure the TOS for HoloLens is researcher-friendly. Even if you have no problem with Facebook, consider the implications of what tracking eye movement means for advertising before you buy a Rift.
 

jnemesh

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The only reason is supply , if HTC has more units to sell than more units will be sold , both are probably sold out.

The stock issues and ability to actually ship product and fulfil orders is certainly one part. But ANYONE who is seriously shopping right now is choosing the Vive, not because of stock, but because of the controllers and room scale! Oculus got lapped, technology wise, and it will be months before they can even START to compete. Once they have feature parity with the Touch Controllers, they MIGHT be getting more attention, but that's a big "if" at the moment, and we don't really know how well their implementation works compared to the Vive, as it's all pre-release hardware being shown at the moment. Nor do we know the costs involved...I am guessing $200 for two controllers and probably another $100 for an additional camera to replicate what the Vive is doing. If it's more expensive than the Vive for the Oculus + Touch, it's toast.
 

jnemesh

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Ohh if I didn't have faith and patience, I doubt I would have spent the Money on a VR headset already. :)

I agree there are a few good games, heck I still go back and play the lab :) but you also have to agree.. TODAY.. there are a lack of good AAA games.

Well, that's true for right now, but I am looking at buying "Eagle Flight" and "Star Trek: Bridge Crew" from Ubisoft this year. So, it IS coming!
 

nysmo

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I think one critical mistake oculus made was assuming their user base was your average consumer idiot. This is no doubt partly the fault of Facebook, but they forgot that the only people really interested in this thing were tech geeks who are very protective and educated when it comes to digital media, DRM, available content, peripherals, etc.
 

PiERiT

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The same thing happened with the Xbox One and the PS4 after Microsoft made a bunch of horrible marketing mistakes and people fired back and refused to buy an Xbox One.

Debacles aside, I like my Oculus more than my Vive, and my Xbox One more than my PS4. Life is too short to be petty about crap like this.
 

Ur_Mom

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Furthermore, in the interim, why not partner with someone like Dave & Busters or Gameworks. Get an arcade version in there. Commercial units can be balls to the wall powerful in terms of GFX power. This is a tech people need to experience and arcades haven't had any major tech upgrades in years.

Do this. It'd give it a lot more exposure. Especially with those that are seeking out fun stuff. It's fairly close to the target demographic - disposable income, gamers (maybe not hardcore gamers, but casual), and interested in having fun.

I think one critical mistake oculus made was assuming their user base was your average consumer idiot. This is no doubt partly the fault of Facebook, but they forgot that the only people really interested in this thing were tech geeks who are very protective and educated when it comes to digital media, DRM, available content, peripherals, etc.

Right now, those tech geeks are the ones that are the early adopters. In several years, it might hit the casual gamer.

The downside - it's not a real social experience. Sure, you get to watch that person play and make fun of them, but it's not that great for social engagements.

The Vive looks like the better product. The Oculus is the one that drummed up the VR hype, though. After my PC upgrade, I'm looking into VR. It'll probably be mid-next year, though. Hopefully, a new generation will be available as well as a larger selection of games.
 

B00nie

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You know, for all the nefarious uses one could come up with that Facebook can do X and Y using your data, there's also practical research that can be had in anonymous ways. For example, you explain that they can track your eyes in productivity work and web browsing but what if that ushers in a much more efficient UI or the worlds next window manager that is the most intuitive ever, etc.. etc...

People tend to jump to fear because it's easy to fear but that shouldn't be the only response (however hard it is to ignore that Facebook is a company that wants your data for ad dollars at the end of the day).

Facebook is already getting insane uses such as credit background checks. This is unbelievably wrong and dangerous. I personally will have nothing to do with anything Facebook related. The problem is that people do not understand what Facebook is - it's a humongous spying machine that uses peoples social weaknesses to lure them into selling their privacy to marketers and government agencies. Facebook is exploiting basic psychology - people wanting to get acceptance from peers and belonging to groups. By giving that all so wonderful experience of posting that juicy selfie or bragging about your new sports boat to those meaningless bunch of pseudofriends, they somehow have managed to do the same thing the church has warned about for years. Selling your soul.

I'm not a believer of any sorts but if I had to name something that most likely came out of the devil, Facebook would be number 1 on that list.

Unfortunately my kids are on Facebook despite my efforts to stop them. Even more unfortunately I understand why they're there - you would be a de facto outsider if you didn't have a FB account as a teenager. The stuff that I've seen people post on Facebook is so mind numbingly stupid, repetitive and boring that it can't be good for anyones IQ to spend time on Facebook daily.

When I was their age I was reading encyclopedias, classic novels and technical literature. What do they do? Watch idiotic memes. It's so sad.
 

LatexRat

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Impatient people buy the Vive and patient people buy the Rift. There are more impatient people obviously ;)
 

CEpeep

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Impatient people buy the Vive and patient people buy the Rift. There are more impatient people obviously ;)

Works for me. As a developer, impatient customers are often the easiest to sell to. I'd rather put my product in front of customers ready to spend their money now. It takes customers ready to buy product to get a new studio off the ground quickly. If I were starting a new VR software development company, I'd be targeting the Vive for sure, because it has a greater audience of people who have demonstrated a willingness to spend their money now.

If I have something to sell right now, a patient customer isn't a particularly good one.
 

admiralperpetual

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having used both several times I really feel like the occulus is a more polished product, and the touch controllers are superior to the vive's... if only they were for sale at retail.
the vive is much less comfortable and the visual quality is not quite as good. also had more tracking problems with vive than with occulus, especially when you're using the second occulus camera for touch controllers...
just a lot of unfortunate blunders with timing. I understand occulus doesn't want to ship products until they are ready, but vive seems to be proving they were "ready enough" during crescent bay days..
surprised few people mention the vive's lack of good audio solution.

"luckily" my PC is not VR-ready at the moment, so I can wait for gen-2 to drop and see where we are at that point.
 

LatexRat

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Works for me. As a developer, impatient customers are often the easiest to sell to. I'd rather put my product in front of customers ready to spend their money now. It takes customers ready to buy product to get a new studio off the ground quickly. If I were starting a new VR software development company, I'd be targeting the Vive for sure, because it has a greater audience of people who have demonstrated a willingness to spend their money now.

If I have something to sell right now, a patient customer isn't a particularly good one.

I guess it depends on the experience you're developing. If you need the Vive controllers to play the game, then I guess Rift would have to wait for your support, but if you can play your game with a traditional controller, you might as well support both. Not sure if everyone realizes this, but you can run steam games in Rift.. It's not like Rift buyers aren't buying games either... Both camps of early adopters are people with disposable income. The Rifters just didn't spaz out over waiting a few months for the added capabilities to ship.
 

dr.stevil

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Things aren't looking great for Oculus

Even if they do manage to ship their motion controllers before the holidays, they instantly fragmented their user base by not releasing them with the headset itself.... and it still wont do proper roomscale (or not unless users buy another camera... further fragmenting their users). Between those issues and the trailing sales numbers, I'm not sure why a developer would focus on the rift as a development platform at all.

The moment Facebook bought Oculus, I lost the majority of my interest in the Rift, but the lack of motion controls (and bundling the xbox controller instead) put a nail in it for me and I decided on the Vive. I might of considered a future Rift but the whole DRM lockout was a major turnoff

The good news is there will likely be more competition for the next generation of VR!
 

LatexRat

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Things aren't looking great for Oculus

Even if they do manage to ship their motion controllers before the holidays, they instantly fragmented their user base by not releasing them with the headset itself.... and it still wont do proper roomscale (or not unless users buy another camera... further fragmenting their users). Between those issues and the trailing sales numbers, I'm not sure why a developer would focus on the rift as a development platform at all.

The moment Facebook bought Oculus, I lost the majority of my interest in the Rift, but the lack of motion controls (and bundling the xbox controller instead) put a nail in it for me and I decided on the Vive. I might of considered a future Rift but the whole DRM lockout was a major turnoff

The good news is there will likely be more competition for the next generation of VR!

Touch is supposed to ship with a second camera included. Why would a developer not support the Rift? It would be stupid not to. It's trivial to support another headset after you've developed for one, and it's 1/3 of potential customers.. in a really small market.
 

CEpeep

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Touch is supposed to ship with a second camera included. Why would a developer not support the Rift? It would be stupid not to. It's trivial to support another headset after you've developed for one, and it's 1/3 of potential customers.. in a really small market.

Because you can do roomscale right now if you target Vive. The Rift has a completely different implementation for roomscale that is nontrivial to support. Depending on what you are using it for, you may have to completely redevelop sections of your game or app to use Rift's cameras. Oculus needs to support the SteamVR implementation of roomscale sooner rather than later unless they want to completely cede standing/moving experiences to the Vive.

If your game is a seated experience or just uses touch, supporting both headsets is an easy decision, but right now roomscale experiences are the ones people seem to be getting excited about.
 

dr.stevil

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Touch is supposed to ship with a second camera included. Why would a developer not support the Rift? It would be stupid not to. It's trivial to support another headset after you've developed for one, and it's 1/3 of potential customers.. in a really small market.

If they ship the controllers with a second camera, that will put them in a much better position as long as they can get it out ASAP. IIRC, OpenVR has support for touch right now so it may not be too difficult for developers to port games over but I'm not a VR developer so really cant say for sure (not sure if the tacking method matters). As much as I dislike the sleazy moves they've pulled since FB took over, I'm hoping they can turn it around.

I can't wait to see what higher resolution displays and optics bring to the table in future headsets and the only way we'll ever see that is with more competition and user adoption
 

l88bastard

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Had a DK2 collecting dust and considered cancelling my CV1 pre-order, they must have read my mind cause I promptly got shipping notification from Oculus, so I decided to go through with it. During the shipping wait, I did some more research and was disgusted by Oculus Book of Faces DRM & Spyware, did some more research and finally understood the importance of what touch controllers could do. Once the rift arrived I promptly stacked it on top of the other useless crap in the corner of my room and ordered a Vive.

Vive came 3 days later....looked at factory sealed Vive box.....looked at factory sealed Rift Box....looked at the stack of Xbone controllers strewn around my room....looked back at the CV1 box.....put the DK2 up for sale on ebay and got a good return....then put the CV1 up for sale on ebay and got a better return.....used those proceeds towards a 55" LG OLED.

55" LG OLED + Vive = FTW
 

grifter_66

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You can't order a Vive at the moment either. The website says they are on backorder and they will notify you when it's available again but there is no ETA.
 
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