Very long range wireless network on a farm

M

maxiderm

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 26, 2004
Messages
189
hey guys, i am fustrated right now because im on posting this from my computer at work. at home, i have no internet anymore... heres the story:

My dad has always wanted to buy a big house on a huge parcel of land (not that he wants that much land, he just knows it would be a good investment). so, after buisness has been picking up extremely well for us in the past couple years (real estate in CA... enough said...) he decided just to do so. all grown up now on my own, he offered to rent out a small house to me that was on his land. i thought it would be a great idea, i mean, come on... its my parents... they arent gonna charge me THAT much for rent anyway. so i agreed and i know he has a wireless network going through his house. because the AP is located in the office next to all the rooms, they have been able to get internet access in every room even though the house is around 6,000 sq ft, so i knew they must have good top notch wireless equipment to extend the ~40ft through several walls (yet how he has highspeed service in the middle of nowhere sure beyond me). so i thought, maybe i can just catch his wirless signal from his house. WRONG, the house he rents to me is on the complete opposite side of the damn parcel! i mean, we are talking almost a quarter of a mile away (through lots of trees not to mention). i havent had time to research this, but i was thinking maybe buying a long range 802.11 antenna (i hope i dont need any like commercial grade crap though...) to be able to pick up his wireless network from my house. hes stubborn and wont let me attach anything to his house, so putting an antenna on his house is out of the question, but he says he doesnt care if i use his wireless network connection as long as i dont add anything to his house... so do you guys have any suggestions to what i should do or what i should buy for that kind of range??? please tell me im not SOL or will have to end up paying hundreds of dollars... thanks.

-Max-
 
only way i could think of is attaching one of those big can-style antennas to his house, but thats out of hte question :iP
 
i wouldnt think so, since its meant to transmit the signal in a narrow area, so it goes farther..

what u would need on ur house is a friggin huge dish lol :-P
 
Whats the approximate distance, a quarter mile? Do you have line of site to the house. The only thing I can suggest off hand is to get a high gain "cantenna" like item if you have LoS and point it directly at the house. If not then I have a feeling you might be SOL as with the signal going through all the walls in the house the signal will degrade considerably once you bypass the structure (if the house is really that big), you might be lucky to get a signal a couple hundred feet from the house. If you have a laptop go outside and see how far the "connection cloud" extends past the structural walls and that will give you and idea of where you need to be.

*if i remember correctly 1 mile= 5200+ ft/4= ~1300ft distance from his house to yours. Most wireless routers have a max range of 3000 ft, if it is outdoors. Dont know if this will help any or not.
 
i could try a Netgear Range Max N with some Range Max repeaters, or antenna's with a AP where you need to boost the single, i did setup with a rangemax card with a external intenna to a range max router. Best thing to do would be setup a higher end wireless router than put in AP's
 
http://www.hawkingtech.com/products/productlist.php?CatID=32&FamID=58&ProdID=133

do you think that this would work? im thinking i could mount it outside on my chimeny (that reaches like 25-30ft high) that way it will be taller than the average tree out there (they are pretty small, the highest ones being around 20ft). do you think i could somehow build myself some dish of some sort? come on, you guys have never tried to steal your neighbors wifi connection before? jk, it would be like that exept for trying to steal the wifi from your whole block now that i think about it lol... arg this is so frustrating, im ready to construct my own satellite dish or something...

EDIT: oh i just saw the post above... ya that actually looks like it might work better in this case... im just worried that if i spend a couple hundred bucks on this dish it still might not work... maybe i will look for some reviews on it.
 
From my little reading, home wireless router have abouta 300m indoor range, or a 1000m outdoor - unobstructed range.

so i guess the mix between the walls of the office and the distance has killed it.
 
^ no it was never killed, it never had a chance. we are talking thousands of feet away through trees and shrubs to the opposite end of the parcel...
 
maxiderm said:
^ no it was never killed, it never had a chance. we are talking thousands of feet away through trees and shrubs to the opposite end of the parcel...
Click to expand...


yup, thats alot of land, :D at least you get some peace and quiet.
 
ya... but i dont want peace and quiet... i want internet so i can download music and play it very loudly so the small woodland creatures will scurry away...
 
Do you have power between you and your dads house? If so I'd say go the access point route. Issue solved.
 
I'd invest my time in having a talk with him regarding it. Try and convince him to let you put a yagi over at his place that way you dont have a problem. From what i've seen, most 802.11x stuff is so small... its not like 1980's satillite TV here... Go online, find a small but nice and powerful directional antenna. Tell him you'll pay for it and explain how much money its going to save you in the long run. Also, you might not have to mount it "on" his house persay... maybe you could aim it out a window? depends on line of sight I suppose... Just a thought.
 
You can pick up a 24DB gain parabolic antenna for around $50. You are more than likely still going to need some sort of outdoor antenna on the other side, even a small panel would work if you can get over the treeline. I think you are fighting a lost cause with the current config.
 
sandmanx said:
You can pick up a 24DB gain parabolic antenna for around $50. You are more than likely still going to need some sort of outdoor antenna on the other side, even a small panel would work if you can get over the treeline. I think you are fighting a lost cause with the current config.
Click to expand...

I don't think he is fighting a lost cause by any means. He just needs the right equipment to get what he is trying to do done. First step, ok it with the dad. 2nd, buy two 24 dbi antennas. 1 directional, 1 Omni directional. Put the Omni directional at your house and the directional at your dads. Get a router on the inside of your house and test the signals.

Also, cutting some tree branches might be a must to pull off a good signal.

And again, this thread is useless without picture. :)

I have this one.
http://www.wifi-link.com/product.ph...id=1&class2_id=50&class3_id=164&product_id=19
I get a good 800 feet range from my house with this one.

Then you'll need this one for at your dad's house.
http://www.wifi-link.com/product.ph...id=1&class2_id=56&class3_id=162&product_id=21
 
How about this idea; the antenna in the router can possibly be inside....

Me in another thread... said:
Here's what I would do:

Get a WRT54G, and put the DD-WRT fw on it, and boost the signal. Then get an external antenna, like the one strapped to my stoplight, but put an amplifier on it. Then on the other end, with the same antenna and amp, use a WET54G, and connect that antenna to it. You will be able to go a couple miles, if not more, with this setup. So, in theory, with this setup, you will maximize throughput between two buildings.

If you need any more info on the antennae and amps, let mee know.

EDIT: I know this stuff because the company I work for is also a WISP....
Click to expand...
 
Pictures certainly would help. Even that is only a piece of the puzzle. A site survey would be the only way to know for sure. But since you use trees as in plural, at that distance then spending money on a high gain antenna, especially at 2.4 Ghz would probably be a complete waste of money. No matter what the gain, beamwidth, receive sensitivity, etc.. Trees have leaves. Leaves have water in them. They sway, which distorts the harmonics and radiation pattern. Short story is you almost certainly have a few options. 1. Go above. Even a mount on each side is worthless unless your above the tree line on both sides. 2. Cut the trees in the path. Also I'd guess not a viable option, much like the first suggestion. 3. Trench and lay fiber. 4. Bounce the signal off something both houses can see unobstructed. Unlikely with the mention of trees in the area but if you both could see a water tower then you have an outside shot.

Many trees at a quarter mile make a 802.11 2.4 Ghz wireless shot a virtual impossibility. I say virtual because, as mentioned, no pictures, no on site survey and so forth so you can't say impossible with certainty. .
 
ktwebb said:
Many trees at a quarter mile make a 802.11 2.4 Ghz wireless shot a virtual impossibility. I say virtual because, as mentioned, no pictures, no on site survey and so forth so you can't say impossible with certainty. .
Click to expand...

I agree. I have see just one to two nice-sized oak trees kill a signal like this.
 
I would look into the Cisco Aironet 1300 Series wireless briges, they have 20 mile range
;)
 
any AP that can run WDS, WAP54G, WRT54G or Buffalo WHR G54S running DD-WRT, 2 LMR400 pigtails (RPTNC to N Male) and two 10dBi omni antennas.

Run Cat5 up to the top of your dad's house somewhere, mount the 10dBi antenna on the roof, eave, etc, something high, run the Cat5 into the router, set it with DHCP turned off (or alternatively, if using a router, run it through the WAN port and keep your stuff seperate).

Depending on IP address problems, you're halfway there(may be on the same subnet by default with the routers, need to change that if you are running yours seperate from your father's)

Mount your antenna at your place somewhere high, config the radio as a client or WDS bridge, run Cat5 to your PC/switch/whatever.

With this setup, especially if you run your AP as a WDS repeater, you will have wireless access for a quarter mile easily outdoors with your laptop, sitting with the squirrels, surfin the web.

It does still depend on line of sight, however the 10dBi omni will be a bit more forgiving than a directional with the trees and such. You need both antennas as high over the obsticals as possible. I have a setup similar here, with 10dBi on each end, I get 1/8 mile coverage through dense trees (my antenna is not above them), with a 10dBi only on my porch, standard antenna on my AP, its just a hair under 1/8 mile. I have the same on a 130ft tower, it transmits 5 miles with a directional antenna on the client side, going to do more testing today.
 
I agree with the above post, however, the OP said he couldn't mount anything to his dad's house....
 
Mount it inside the attic, hopefully near a window or vent.

Could even set an AP in a second floor window, something like that, just testing.
 
[BB] Rick James said:
I don't think he is fighting a lost cause by any means. He just needs the right equipment to get what he is trying to do done. First step, ok it with the dad. 2nd, buy two 24 dbi antennas. 1 directional, 1 Omni directional. Put the Omni directional at your house and the directional at your dads. Get a router on the inside of your house and test the signals.

Also, cutting some tree branches might be a must to pull off a good signal.

And again, this thread is useless without picture. :)

I have this one.
http://www.wifi-link.com/product.ph...id=1&class2_id=50&class3_id=164&product_id=19
I get a good 800 feet range from my house with this one.

Then you'll need this one for at your dad's house.
http://www.wifi-link.com/product.ph...id=1&class2_id=56&class3_id=162&product_id=21
Click to expand...


hmm 800ft, thats waaaayyyyy short of the 2000-3000m the site suggests.

Are you being conservative in your estimate, or are they simply way overstating the range?

Im currently in a similar situation, however with water not land seperating me from my AP.

We live on a canal, and there are some small islands in relatively close proximity to our house, and would love to be able to boost our wireless range directionally out to one of those islands, so it can be picked up by the boat when its out there....maybe by mounting an omni on top of the mast (about 50ft high) which would give us realtime access to weather forecasts, etc etc.

Id buy those in a heartbeat if i thought i was going to get 2-3km range from them.
 
0ldman said:
any AP that can run WDS, WAP54G, WRT54G or Buffalo WHR G54S running DD-WRT, 2 LMR400 pigtails (RPTNC to N Male) and two 10dBi omni antennas.

Run Cat5 up to the top of your dad's house somewhere, mount the 10dBi antenna on the roof, eave, etc, something high, run the Cat5 into the router, set it with DHCP turned off (or alternatively, if using a router, run it through the WAN port and keep your stuff seperate).

Depending on IP address problems, you're halfway there(may be on the same subnet by default with the routers, need to change that if you are running yours seperate from your father's)

Mount your antenna at your place somewhere high, config the radio as a client or WDS bridge, run Cat5 to your PC/switch/whatever.

With this setup, especially if you run your AP as a WDS repeater, you will have wireless access for a quarter mile easily outdoors with your laptop, sitting with the squirrels, surfin the web.

It does still depend on line of sight, however the 10dBi omni will be a bit more forgiving than a directional with the trees and such. You need both antennas as high over the obsticals as possible. I have a setup similar here, with 10dBi on each end, I get 1/8 mile coverage through dense trees (my antenna is not above them), with a 10dBi only on my porch, standard antenna on my AP, its just a hair under 1/8 mile. I have the same on a 130ft tower, it transmits 5 miles with a directional antenna on the client side, going to do more testing today.
Click to expand...


Wow, 5 miles, thats pretty impressive, are any further specifics needed on your equipment? or is the dBi rating all one needs to know?

Like would something like this work as well:

http://www.synnex.com.au/Default.as...rand=Dlink&item=ANT24-2100&search=true&page=1
 
Rent a trench digger.......or rent some local mexicans.......dig a trench......use outdoor grade cable......then your done

maybe 100 bucks for the trencher and another 100 worth of rj45

no more wireless worries


or better yet just get your own service......
 
DaKozMan said:
Rent a trench digger.......or rent some local mexicans.......dig a trench......use outdoor grade cable......then your done

maybe 100 bucks for the trencher and another 100 worth of rj45

no more wireless worries


or better yet just get your own service......
Click to expand...

Uhh, copper won't work chief, as the distance is way over 100m. Also, rj45 is a connector, the cable is cat5e or cat6. Fiber would be needed in this situation, which shouldn't be that expensive if the OP gets a line made with the ends already on it and buries it in a trench.

Again, without pictures of where the wifi run would go, it's all a guessing game. As it has been said several times in this thread, if you can clear the trees, forget it.
 
sandmanx said:
Uhh, copper won't work chief, as the distance is way over 100m. Also, rj45 is a connector, the cable is cat5e or cat6. Fiber would be needed in this situation, which shouldn't be that expensive if the OP gets a line made with the ends already on it and buries it in a trench.

Again, without pictures of where the wifi run would go, it's all a guessing game. As it has been said several times in this thread, if you can clear the trees, forget it.
Click to expand...

you will need outdoor flooded cat6
 
-(Xyphox)- said:
you will need outdoor flooded cat6
Click to expand...

Yeah, other than the fact that 1320 foot(1/4 mile) is way over the ~330 foot limit of a copper run for 10/100/1000Mbps ethernet.
 
The Chosen One said:
Wow, 5 miles, thats pretty impressive, are any further specifics needed on your equipment? or is the dBi rating all one needs to know?

Like would something like this work as well:

http://www.synnex.com.au/Default.as...rand=Dlink&item=ANT24-2100&search=true&page=1
Click to expand...
That would work for point to point, I'm doing point to multipoint with something like that on the client side.

I'm using a WRT54GL with DD-WRT firmware, 150mw transmit, 6ft LMR400 for about 2dB loss, 10.5dBi omni on top of a 130ft tower. Long range shots, you have to figure path loss and fresnel zone for a start.
http://www.zytrax.com/tech/wireless/calc.htm

this site will help, although I wonder about its accuracy, seems a bit optimistic from my results, but we just had a 24dBi parabolic grid antenna on a 6 ft pole at ground level. Fresnel zone was definately an issue during testing. Most areas around here are blocked by trees and ground elevation causes problems, so its going to be a project to say the least. We still cover several hundred homes as it is, without a tower/pole on the client side, just getting started.
 
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