I pay Verizon, not Cogent. I'm depending on Verizon to make sure I have the bandwidth I need, it's up to them to sort out those back-end issues. Part of the business of running an ISP is making sure your clients can get to all of the sites they need to get to reliable and quickly. I don't need their sob stories about Cogent and I don't need their BS excuses either. Bottom line, if things don't change very shortly I'll be switching to their lowest package since I only have a faster package for getting to Netflix, but if that doesn't work I can't see spending and extra $20/month for the faster speed. It's possible that just out of spite I'll get an unmetered VPS and max the connection downloading a dummy file from it 24/7 when I'm not using the connection.
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Verizon Seeks Payment For Carrying Netflix Traffic
- Thread starter HardOCP News
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I pay Verizon, not Cogent. I'm depending on Verizon to make sure I have the bandwidth I need, it's up to them to sort out those back-end issues. Part of the business of running an ISP is making sure your clients can get to all of the sites they need to get to reliable and quickly. I don't need their sob stories about Cogent and I don't need their BS excuses either. Bottom line, if things don't change very shortly I'll be switching to their lowest package since I only have a faster package for getting to Netflix, but if that doesn't work I can't see spending and extra $20/month for the faster speed. It's possible that just out of spite I'll get an unmetered VPS and max the connection downloading a dummy file from it 24/7 when I'm not using the connection.
NoOther
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It's your sob story, your excuses about how you can't do what you want. But they are living up to everything in their contract. You can always walk with your feet if you don't like it, but it isn't their fault. Cogent is at fault no matter how much you try to make it seem otherwise, it doesn't change the facts of the situation.
Wierdo
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Do you work for Verizon?
You sound like a shitty shill for Verizon.
My excuses? I'm fucking paying them, not the other way around. Yeah, how dare I expect my connection work as advertised.
It's actually more like the federal highway administration not allowing foreign semi trucks into the USA if they don't purchase any fuel in the USA.
And Netflix is paying Cogent to get the traffic into Verizon, but Cogent is doing a terrible job at it.You sound like a shitty shill for Verizon.
My excuses? I'm fucking paying them, not the other way around. Yeah, how dare I expect my connection work as advertised.
Folks, folks, you don't seem to get it. It's pretty simple.
Verizon is a big, popular company. They sell services to a lot of people here, and those services aren't cheap.
So, naturally, if a time comes to spew hate at the company, they will do so. Heaps of hate. Why? Because fuck big corporations. They're evil. Oh, don't talk to me about Cogent. Never heard of them. They must be two guys like me working out of an apartment or something. They're not some big company that has bought out a dozen smaller ISPs over the last decade. They're blameless and innocent, because I've heard of Verizon, and I have to pay money directly to Verizon, and where it goes after that is not my concern. Verizon is my grief sponge.
Verizon is a big, popular company. They sell services to a lot of people here, and those services aren't cheap.
So, naturally, if a time comes to spew hate at the company, they will do so. Heaps of hate. Why? Because fuck big corporations. They're evil. Oh, don't talk to me about Cogent. Never heard of them. They must be two guys like me working out of an apartment or something. They're not some big company that has bought out a dozen smaller ISPs over the last decade. They're blameless and innocent, because I've heard of Verizon, and I have to pay money directly to Verizon, and where it goes after that is not my concern. Verizon is my grief sponge.
NoOther
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You sound like a shitty shill for Verizon.
My excuses? I'm fucking paying them, not the other way around. Yeah, how dare I expect my connection work as advertised.
And you sound like a butthurt selfish individual that takes no time to research the way things actually work. Perhaps if you did more research you would understand the situation better, strike that, I did the research for you and you STILL do not understand.
I have no love for Verizon, but neither do I have love for Netflix or Cogent. Both have screwed their customers over numerous times as well. The problem is people just see something and make snap judgments. If you don't like the way the system is setup, be mad at the system and those that are trying to game it...like Cogent. Just being mad at Verizon is a bit childish really.
Netflix has to pay someone for it. They paid Cogent for it previously but they were doing a poor job of it.
And with that, net neutrality has ended.
Wierdo
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Ah the good old $3/minute AT&T days are coming back in internet form. Lets hope Google and municipal fiber adoption skyrockets and saves us, not holding my breath though with all the lobby money the telcos are throwing around these days.
This isn't a last mile issue, this is an issue where Netflix paid Cogent for 1000 Gbps (to throw out a number) of bandwidth into Comcast (or Verizon) but Cogent only has 500 Gbps. Now Netflix simply cuts out of the middle-man and buys 1000 Gbps directly from Comcast.
And yet by even posting the link you didn't bother to read it. Comparing Cogent to Verizon is like comparing Canonical to Microsoft. Total Assets of 606 million and operating income of 30 million ? LMAO Verizon shits that out it in a day.
The reason why people blame Verizon or Comcast is because a percentage of the populous doesn't let their political leanings affect their bearing of common sense. When the size of the shit raining down on your head is the size of bus it's moronic to go after the sparrow.
I get that you're trying to use sarcasm to make some kind of point, but you sound awfully close to someone serious, dumb, and crazy. Just FYI.
Good Christ, Net Neutrality has nothing to do with this.
Once again, Cogent is a pile of useless shit in the middle fucking everything up. If they can bypass Cogent and their terrible service, why wouldn't they? Happier customers, more bandwidth, less network congestion? Sounds like a fuckin win win to me.
Parmenides
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Does netflix have to go through Cogent?
I don't give a flying fuck. Verizon and the other telephone companies got over $200 billion dollars in tax victims money in the 90s for the purposes of wiring fiber to every home. They promptly sat on that money and laughed all the way to the bank. So you'll excuse me if I'm not exactly sympathetic to their plight.
Cogent is irrelevant. It is the ISPs job to handle that shit and provide the customers the service they are paying for and if that means bucking up and paying for upgrades, so that your customers can get Netflix, then that is simply the cost of doing business. It is not as if Verizon or the other ISPs are exactly short on money (especially given the routine swindling of taxpayers).
Look no one is here saying Verizon is the fucking second coming. Verizon is an insidious company that finds every way to fuck their customers and their employees. Trust me, I worked for them.
BUT, Right here, Right now, you need to be angry at Cogent and/or Netflix, because the problem isn't on your side of the network, it's on theirs.
Say I ran a website with a subscription based access. Works great for 85% of my user base, but the last 15% complain about lag and packet loss. Said users complaining are all on one ISP. They all say they have great connections otherwise, but this website is just bad for them. I go to my ISP and ask them what's going on. They say, "We are at capacity going to that network, and by contract we have to pay to get more capacity. We don't wanna pay, so those people can go smoke pole." So now, the onus is on me to fix the problem for my customers, by either, A
Changing networks entirely, or B Adding a branch directly to that network to circumvent the bottleneck created by my shitty ISP.I'd do A, but Netflix seems to think B is better.
Look no one is here saying Verizon is the fucking second coming. Verizon is an insidious company that finds every way to fuck their customers and their employees. Trust me, I worked for them.
BUT, Right here, Right now, you need to be angry at Cogent and/or Netflix, because the problem isn't on your side of the network, it's on theirs.
Say I ran a website with a subscription based access. Works great for 85% of my user base, but the last 15% complain about lag and packet loss. Said users complaining are all on one ISP. They all say they have great connections otherwise, but this website is just bad for them. I go to my ISP and ask them what's going on. They say, "We are at capacity going to that network, and by contract we have to pay to get more capacity. We don't wanna pay, so those people can go smoke pole." So now, the onus is on me to fix the problem for my customers, by either, A
I'd do A, but Netflix seems to think B is better.
Except, in this case, it is Verizon who wants Cogent to pay for their upgrades. Verizon wants to double dip; getting money from the people who pay them for internet service as well as the people who provide content their customers want.
Verizon makes billions of dollars in profit already from people who are paying them to provide acceptable internet service. It is their responsibility to provide upgrades to ensure their customers get acceptable service and the content they want. It is not the responsibility of Cogent or Netflix to pay for Verizon's own upgrades.
Because, as I've said before Netflix paid their provider for a certain amount of bandwidth but their provider doesn't have that bandwidth available into your ISP.
Cogent is the ISP. There's more than one involved here. You clearly don't understand the issue.
And by the way, given your normal anarcho-capitalist stance, this statement is pretty damned rich.
Look no one is here saying Verizon is the fucking second coming. Verizon is an insidious company that finds every way to fuck their customers and their employees. Trust me, I worked for them.
BUT, Right here, Right now, you need to be angry at Cogent and/or Netflix, because the problem isn't on your side of the network, it's on theirs.
Say I ran a website with a subscription based access. Works great for 85% of my user base, but the last 15% complain about lag and packet loss. Said users complaining are all on one ISP. They all say they have great connections otherwise, but this website is just bad for them. I go to my ISP and ask them what's going on. They say, "We are at capacity going to that network, and by contract we have to pay to get more capacity. We don't wanna pay, so those people can go smoke pole." So now, the onus is on me to fix the problem for my customers, by either, A
I'd do A, but Netflix seems to think B is better.
Then you are fucking retard. The issue is that Verizon's networks can't handle the bandwidth that their customers are trying to use. They need to upgrade their equipment but are refusing to do so unless Netflix pays them to do so. Verizon gets paid by their customers for X amount of data usage. doesn't matter if they are using Netflix or if they are streaming 4K video of a cat playing with a ball of yarn 24x7 on every computer in their house. That cost falls on the shoulders of Verizon, not the services that they use to upgrade their services when their customers are not able to use services.
In your example, if the issue only happens with 1 ISP that points to an issue with that ISP then. You seem to have more than enough bandwidth to get to every other ISP. And in this case Verizon refuses to do what they need to get more bandwidth between them and Cogent unless they pay for an upgrade of the NOC equipment.
If I want to get fiber from my ISP I pay for the cost of fiber, I do NOT pay for the cost of fiber, plus the cost of the equipment to bury the fiber, plus the building to house the equipment to give me fiber, plus all the other equipment there in the central office. Which is more on par with what Verizon is wanting. You want to add more connection to us? fine but you will have to pay for all the equipment on our end for us to give you more connections as we aren't paying for any more equipment.
The cost should not fall on Netflix to start paying out a certain cost per MB to every service provider for them to carry video traffic. that is what we pay our ISPs for to transmit our data no matter what it is.
What part of this are you not understanding, Verizon isn't violating the peer agreement, COGENT IS. Why should Verizon pay for network upgrades so Cogent can fuck them more?
People are also paying Netflix for a certain level of service, and they pay Cogent for a certain level of service. Cogent isn't providing. Not Verizon. Netflix needs to change ISPs or circumvent Cogents issues with some ISPs.
See above.
The issue is between the ISPs that doesn't change that Verzion wants Netflix to pay them money if over X amount of usage on their network is going to them. Netflix shouldn't be involved here. I have no idea who you have as an ISP but if them and another have issues with connection between the two of them, should the other ISP start charging you personally for sending traffic over their network? You pay your ISP they are to take care of their own shit. Just like Netflix pays theirs and they are to take care of their own shit. In the end both customers (you and Netflix) already pay for service it is up to the ISPs to make sure they have the connection in place to support the stuff.
Because it is not Cogent's job to pay for upgrades on Verizon's side of things. This is not a difficult concept. Verizon made $5.1 billion in profit last year; they certainly have the money and the resources to actually invest in their infrastructure.
If this bullshit is allowed to continue, there will be no more independent backbones on the internet. It will put companies like Cogent and Level3 out of business and give companies like ComcastNBCUniversalTimeWarnerCable and Verizon even more control of the internet than they already have.
And so that it is clear that I do understand the issue here. I get the entire peering issue. between the big guys they trade bandwidth at equal. we setup a 10Gbps link between us, I send you 10 Gbps, you send me 10Gbps. if either side needs more and you have to connect more links and it becomes off balance then the off balance side should pay for the extra link. However as I stated that is purely between the ISPs not the end customers to pay for that.
Right, good, atleast we're getting somewhere now.
The reason Verizon is trying to get Netflix to pay for network upgrades is to bypass Cogent entirely. So the peering agreement issues won't matter anymore. They don't want Netflix to pay to upgrade Cogents connection, they want Netflix to pay for a direct connection to them.
Yes, it's a shit situation, but this is a quick way to fix most of the issue, and cut out the shitty middleman.
Verizon can pay for the network upgrades (or rather, use the money stolen from tax victims since parasitic corporations like Verizon very rarely spend their own money on infrastructure, relying on subsidies and bribes instead) because their subscribers are paying them for internet service and that includes the cost of doing business (e.g. maintaining and upgrading your network to provide your customers with internet access).
You're not getting the point. Cogent is violating the Peer Agreement between themselves and Verizon, and Verizon just wants Cogent to pay them the money their owed for the unbalance. Once the balance is restored and/or Cogent pays its overage fees, BOTH SIDES will have to upgrade the link. Not just Verizon.
There's obviously too much Agenda in the way of reasonable thought with you. Like I said before, I'll be the first to admit how shitty Verizon is, but in this one instance, it's really not their fault.
You just want them to do it on a charity basis because of the wrongs they've done before. You're either stupid or Naïve, or both, if you believe that will ever happen.
It is not charity, it is doing what they are being paid to do.
Stop prostituting for the corporations.
Pay for upgrades no, pay for a link yes maybe.
How it works for those guys. Level 3, Cogent, Verizon... all the big guys make deals to allow traffic back and forth at no cost to either party. Because if you have equal bandwidth then both parties are paying each other X amount and in the end you break even. So as the direction into one network starts to largely outweigh the data going out then you do lose the balance of a even deal and the one side should start to pay for whatever the difference is.
So in that regards if Cogent is sending so much data into Verizon that they need say twice the connections into Verizon as what Verizon needs out to them then there should be a payment for the link. But that is it. They shouldn't pay for any upgrades of equipment or anything, they should just pay the same types of cost for whatever they are using just as any Tier 2 or 3 would pay for links into Verizon. Although that all depends on what the contract states. My work being a small ISP our peering arguments don't give us anything special, instead we just pay for X amount of bandwidth and if we go over that amount 95% of the time then we pay so much per Mbps that our customers put us over. There would be no reason for a equal trade between us since they would get nothing in return. For something like the Tier 1s they would probably have something in their terms about how it is a even trade as long as the bandwidth between them is within a certain ratio, and then should have something in there for what happens with in a case like this. If not then for now it is just up to Verizon to suck it up and wait till the contract between the two is up and time to renew at which point they can work out a new deal that have better terms for equality.
That isn't how that article words it. Although in all honesty even the article didn't know what was meant by "how much Netflix streaming content they will carry without being paid additional fees". In either case Netflix has no issues with a direct connection to Verizon (or any other ISP) however they require that ISP to get the connection themselves and setup a cache server. Which doesn't benefit Verizon but only Netflix. So that is why they aren't going that way.