Verizon FIOS / Moca Network

ep3w

Gawd
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
648
The existing network consists of a verizon router (G3100) connected to the ONT via coax. Verizon limits the coax connection to 100mbps/100mpbs. Primary goal is to connect a router to the ONT via ethernet for increased speed (200mbps/200mbps) and also allow the use of my own router (Unifi Dream Machine if it makes any difference).

There is one set top box in the equation which complicates things. The STB needs internet via moca in order to get guide information etc. House is wired only via coax so also looking to leverage that in general to get better coverage around the house for devices.

Existing configuration below:

Kingsley Network.jpg


Below is one option for the new configuration. The verizon router will essential just act as a moca bridge for the STB (I think that's all it does is provide moca, but maybe i'm wrong). Based on my research I'm fairly confident this setup would work well and as expected and is generally what is recommended for a 3rd party router on FIOS. Only difference is adding the set of moca adapters to get ethernet to the 3rd floor.

Kingsley Network (1).jpg


What would be nice is to also be able to get wired devices setup on the second floor. I'm wondering if something like below would work but unsure about how the splitter on the first floor would operate. Can the splitter essentially have two "ins" (one from ONT one from the moca adapter)? I'm essentially just trying to get the moca network and the tv network onto the same coax cable.

Kingsley Network (2).jpg


Or would i need to do something like below with an extra moca adpater? Similar idea to above but a separate moca network with the STB on it.

Kingsley Network (3).jpg


Any input would be helpful. Do I need a specific splitter beyond something that is moca compatible?
 

SamirD

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 22, 2015
Messages
3,811
So there's an important concept to understand about moca and coax that I think will lead you to the answer for your setup. :)

Moca is a shared medium. Coax can be, but does not have to be. How is this important in your setup? Well, essentially you want to have two moca networks over the same coax--except you can actually separate the coax into as many point to point networks as you want by directly wiring things together versus through splitters.

So you can have a single straight shot run from the coax ont to your stb--no splitters involved. And by disconnecting the coax connection between the ont and the splitter that goes to the rest of the ports in the house, you are now free to create another separate moca network that can be fed by your router.

Because you're dealing with STB and Verizon and all the quirks with those pieces of equipment, the gist of it is that you can use the coax to feed those boxes directly and then use the rest of the coax separately for whatever else you need to do.

I hope this helps! And if not, feel free to ask questions. :)
 

ep3w

Gawd
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
648
Thanks for the reply. My understanding of the verizon STB is that it relies on both the coax from the ONT and the moca network for full functionality so I cannot separate them. If the STB is connected direct to the ONT it will work but the guide on the STB won't populate as it relies on the moca network to provide that (i believe the on-demand also relies on the moca network). It's an odd configuration compared to what I'm used to seeing with something like comcast. In the existing configuration the verizon router has built in moca providing that functionality (through that existing splitter).

Image below is the recommended config per DSL reports for third party router while maintaining full STB functionality. In their config I think they are just using the vz router as a moca adpater.

http://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/1520441~0a77a96047566870783c80e88baa78a7/PRILANtoWAN.jpg

Reading a couple moca adapter manuals it seems like the third configuration i posted on my first post would be functional. With a splitter like below, the input would be the ONT, the three outputs would be the moca adapter, 2nd floor coax cable and 3rd floor coax cable. The 2nd and 3rd floor coax cables would then be carrying both the ONT signal and the moca signal if I understand it correctly.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017T9KKHW/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1MPSZWNYQK98Y&psc=1

My biggest hesitation on this is sinking a couple hundred bucks into moca adapters before being fairly confident it will work.
 

SamirD

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 22, 2015
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In my experience with a verizon stb the one time I had experience with one was that the stb basically needs the verizon Internet access, even if that is over ethernet. But this was still coming from the verizon router, so I don't know how much the router was an influence in that.

But the easiest thing is to simply leave the verizon coax and moca setup the way it currently is and then simply put your own network and moca on coax cables separated from the verizon moca and ont.

I can't see the dslreports image. :( I would really like to as well as I haven't seen it in years and need a refresh.

The potential problem in your third diagram is at the network layer. There's two moca and potentially even IP networks on the same cabling. This seems like it would cause all sorts of issues. One way to make that setup work is to have a direct coax connection from the ont to the stb, but the removes the ability to use that cabling for your router's moca network and leaves the 2nd floor without a wired connection.
 

ep3w

Gawd
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
648
I think i'm slowly starting to understand this more. According to DSL reports the verizon router includes two MOCA bridges.

-A MOCA WAN bridge which provides coax connectivity between the ONT and the router.
-A MOCA LAN bridge which provides connectivity between the router and the Verizon Set-Top Boxes (STBs).

In the existing configuration it's utilizes both of these moca bridges (WAN and LAN) on the same cabling. WAN is ONT to router, LAN is router to STB (assuming it uses different RF channel or something to accomplish this). When you switch to the ethernet connection on the ONT you must call Verizon and they reconfigure the ONT and presumably disable the moca WAN function on the coax connection so it now only outputs the "tv" signal for lack of better term and the WAN is now supplied by the ethernet port on the ONT.

So to use my own router with the STB I just need to provide a MOCA lan bridge between the router and the stb. Below is the DSL reports image. They state the issues with this setup is the STB are double NAT'd and the STB is on a different segment of the network since traffic can't cross the WAN boundary on the VZ router. The solution to both of those is use just a moca adapter instead of the vz router (in my desired application I think i have to use a moca adapter instead of the vz router as i'd want all devices on the same network segment). Only advantage of using the vz router is presumably you already have it so no money spent on a moca adapter.

PRILANtoWAN.jpg


If anyone else is interested the configuration shown above is Option 6 at the link below, replacing the VZ router with a moca adapter it becomes Option 9.
http://www.dslreports.com/faq/16077

I have seen some amazon reviews mention changing the RF channel on the moca adapter to prevent it talking to the verizon moca adapters but I think that only applies if you are still using the moca WAN or are trying to create a separate moca lan network from an existing verizon moca lan network. I think if you eliminate the vz router and use the ethernet WAN port on the ONT that shouldn't be an issue but if it is, it's a simple config change on the moca adapter.

Based on all that I think this configuration would achieve my goals. Worst case I can fall back to seperate networks as suggested and just lose the wired devices on the 2nd floor which isn't a deal breaker. Unfortunately I'm limited by only one coax on the second floor and one coax on the 3rd floor. Downside is I now have to wait a couple months before I can actually try it out it.

370224_Kingsley_Network_2.jpg
 

socK

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Jan 25, 2004
Messages
3,981

I basically do this, except LAN to LAN.

ONT -> WAN on my personal router (USG 3)
USG LAN -> LAN on VZ router
LAN on VZ router -> PC

Coax from ONT still splits to the VZ router all the same.


STB stuff (at least anything I've ever used) works fine and the VZ router more or less just acts like a switch/access point beyond that.

edit:
Also they will do a truck roll to your house if needed once you hit a certain speed tier. Once 150/150 (from 35/35 on Coax) became available for me, they came to replace my ONT and switch it to Ethernet as part of the order. If you run the Ethernet yourself, you'll need to call them and ask to switch it from Coax WAN to Ethernet WAN once you've connected the cable.
 
Last edited:

ep3w

Gawd
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
648
I basically do this, except LAN to LAN.

ONT -> WAN on my personal router (USG 3)
USG LAN -> LAN on VZ router
LAN on VZ router -> PC

Coax from ONT still splits to the VZ router all the same.


STB stuff (at least anything I've ever used) works fine and the VZ router more or less just acts like a switch/access point beyond that.

edit:
Also they will do a truck roll to your house if needed once you hit a certain speed tier. Once 150/150 (from 35/35 on Coax) became available for me, they came to replace my ONT and switch it to Ethernet as part of the order. If you run the Ethernet yourself, you'll need to call them and ask to switch it from Coax WAN to Ethernet WAN once you've connected the cable.

Good to know. Seems like once I get the chance I'll start this out small and simple to prove the concept before I purchase too many moca adapters. I'll update the thread when i do.
 
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