Venturing into the Realm of WC? Help Please.

lollerskater69

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You want less static pressure. Static pressure is the resistance to airflow.

Unless there is about 1/2 inch distance or more between the fans and the rad (use of a shroud) when a fan pushes air at the rad several things are happening and you can actually see it with smoke and a low speed fan. First thing is the air is very turbulent moving almost in a swirling motion as it moves away from the fan. This is due to the rotation of the blades imparting a rotation in the air stream and just the "disturbance" of the blades both pushing and rotating and "chopping" the airflow as it leaves the blades. All this motion is not in-line with the fins. Second is that there is a significant "dead space" right in the middle where the fan hub is. There are on blades there so very little air gets pushed outward from the fan in this area.

Pull creates an area of low pressure behind the fan (in between the fan and the rad) which sucks air uniformly through the rad across the fins with no dead spot and a much more uniform flow. Usually this works best.

Even more important than above is to feed the rad as cool of air as you have available even if it means the rads will be blowing air into your case. I did not look at all the post so not sure what you are up too but the good news is even if you do it completely wrong it will still work well.

Summary,
If possible/convenient it is almost always best to pull cool room air through the rads. I say almost because if the fans are very low speed it matters less and there are always mounting issues to be considered. Sometimes the best way is not the best way.

Looking at your pic above, if I understand it correctly I would flip the bottom fans around to pull and you are good. One push one pull is bad, you even show with your arrows how the warm exhaust from the lower (heat rises) rad could be sucked in by the upper fan. Fans then rad then case with fans pulling air from near the case side panel through the rad and blowing it away from the machine. That would be my first shot. And the good news is that as long as you do not arc weld anything, you can change the configuration fairly easily with longer standoffs different screws etc. if you want to see what a change does. I really like that you are not hung up on hiding the rads. From a temp viewpoint your proposed setup is almost ideal. Only thing better is both on top laying flat but that is impossible as there is not enoubh room.
I had the understanding that static pressure is the pressure exerted by air or water, in our case air. Fans that are 38mm thick usually provide more because the blades are deeper?(couldn't find a word for that) and that is what helps high FPI rads like the GTX and GTS shine because the 38mm thick fans have the PRESSURE to push through the high fin density of the radiator. Correct me if I am wrong because I am just going with what I understood static pressure to be.

Best shrouds are empty fans lol. Ghetto but effective.
 

lollerskater69

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I was considering the 88cfm Yate Loons. They're $5.99.
http://www.dangerden.com/store/yate-loon-120mm-high-speed-fan-d12sh-12.html#tabs

But idk, would probably be worth the extra $24 for the Ultra Kaze 133cfm fans.
koolance has some nice 120x38 fans that don't make the annoying clicking that the ultra kazes do. look on their site of ppcs

If your getting the BIP, just stick with yates. Get the medium ones if you aren't putting them on a controller.

BTW Dangerden.com is expensive. Petra's has YL's as well. Pretty much one stop shopping. If not jab-tech has yates for liek $3.25
 

King Icewind

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koolance has some nice 120x38 fans that don't make the annoying clicking that the ultra kazes do. look on their site of ppcs

If your getting the BIP, just stick with yates. Get the medium ones if you aren't putting them on a controller.

BTW Dangerden.com is expensive. Petra's has YL's as well. Pretty much one stop shopping. If not jab-tech has yates for liek $3.25
I'm getting the Stealth GTS 360 Black Ice rads...ordered them Friday from dangerden. Hopefully shipping today! :) I was going to just order everything from petra's but they were $3 bucks more, and weren't in stock. So owell.

Just to make sure the loop is correct...rads > the "t" > pump > cpu > rads? The rads are will be on the outside of my case, on the right side panel. So if it doesn't start with the rads, i will have extra tubing in my case. Unless i'm mistaken?

Also, about how much coolant am I going to use? Will this 32oz bottle be enough or should I get 2? http://microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0275971

Thanks in advance. :D
 
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King Icewind

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Rad's should be here Friday! :) Probably order the rest this week...

rads > the "t" > pump > cpu > rads...this correct?
 

lollerskater69

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That is fine. What fans did you order? The GTS is a poor performer with 120x25 fans no matter if they are high speed. You need the static pressure of 120x38 fans.
 

King Icewind

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So I got my 6 fans yesterday. Plugged them in and started up my computer...I've built a hovercraft! It's loud! Idc tho :)

It looks like my cpu block, and 2 rads will be here today. I ordered my cpu block from newegg, 3 days later (after the rads) and it will still arrive at the same time lol. :eek:

I'll be doing some case modding this weekend. :cool:
 

lollerskater69

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Yeah those yate loons are going to suck on that radiator.

You NEED 120x38mm fans to take advantage of the high FPI the GTS has which no 120x25 fan will achieve enough static pressure to push through those fins well.

Edit: lol I mentioned that above. I would serously reccomend it though. Your temps would be a ton better. Koolance has some nice 120x38mm fans.
 

Zoson

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One thing I noticed on a recent build was nice foam/rubber gaskets a guy used to ensure a really good seal between the fan and rad. I am fairly certain he made them himself from strips of adhesive backed foam strip insulation you can find at hardware stores. As I mentioned, fans in pull create a uniform low pressure area (think of it as a vacuum) between the fan and the rad that sucks air through the rad. So any leaks around the edges where the fans meet the mounting edges of the rad will allow air to sneak in bypassing going through the rad. So I thought the seals where a smart idea and thought I would mention it. I would not buy any premade etc, a trip to the hardware store is likely in your future anyway and there are all kinds of ways to do it. And its not really critical, but it is a nice job.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j232/OntarioTL/P1010053.jpg
I buy 1/8" door weather stripping for this. It's adhesive on only one side, but squishy and rubbery enough to make a good seal. You can usually find rolls of ~10 feet for under $5 at your local hardware store. Then it's just a quick stick stick stick and done. I used to try and seal these gaps with electrical tape... The stretchyness and terrible adhesive usually found on adhesive tape made it not work so well though.

I haven't done any real performance qualification against it, but against the back of my hand, the flow does feel 'warmer' with the weather stripping than without.

As a note about shrouds, the new BlackIce SR1 series has a shroud built into it. It's got about the same core footprint as a blackice pro, but the same form factor as a blackice gtx. The entire shroud is slightly over a half inch, so you won't have to make one no matter if you're push or pull.

I happen to have a GTS 120, GTX120, and SR1-120. I'm gonna give them a good comparison soon.
 

King Icewind

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Yeah those yate loons are going to suck on that radiator.

You NEED 120x38mm fans to take advantage of the high FPI the GTS has which no 120x25 fan will achieve enough static pressure to push through those fins well.

Edit: lol I mentioned that above. I would serously reccomend it though. Your temps would be a ton better. Koolance has some nice 120x38mm fans.
What if i was to get another set of Yate Loons and put em on the otherside?


So i got the rads and the cpu block. Both look real nice. HOWEVER, Dangerdan sent me the wrong barbs on one the rads!!! Really annoying!!! Owell, hopefully I will be able to pick the right ones up at Microcenter tonight.
 

x509

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good gpu blocks... hmm well that really depends are you going to go full block?
or just get the gpu block and aircool the ram, and mosfets?
Is there some guideline about which nVidia or ATI cards would be OK with just w/c'ing the GPU block and which would benefit from w/c'ing the entire card? Or whether w/c'ing the entire improves the overclocking result?:confused:

I'm asking because w/c'ing seems to be an area where there is no limit to the amount of money (and energy) you can devote to this topic, but I have to suspect there is a point of diminishing returns. :)

Thanks.
 

Zoson

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Is there some guideline about which nVidia or ATI cards would be OK with just w/c'ing the GPU block and which would benefit from w/c'ing the entire card? Or whether w/c'ing the entire improves the overclocking result?:confused:

I'm asking because w/c'ing seems to be an area where there is no limit to the amount of money (and energy) you can devote to this topic, but I have to suspect there is a point of diminishing returns. :)

Thanks.
I don't think anyone has proven that watercooling the memory and pwm components on a graphics card do much. In fact, I believe the general consensus is that watercooling the pwm and memory is a waste of resources. Which is why swiftech makes these:
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/GTX275.asp
and
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/mcw60-R.asp
 

lollerskater69

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I don't think anyone has proven that watercooling the memory and pwm components on a graphics card do much. In fact, I believe the general consensus is that watercooling the pwm and memory is a waste of resources. Which is why swiftech makes these:
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/GTX275.asp
and
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/mcw60-R.asp
Yep the core is what really matters. The other stuff on the PCB can be kept very cool with a heatsink.

OP yeah I guess you can tear out some old fans and use em as shrouds. Better than nothing.
 

x509

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I don't think anyone has proven that watercooling the memory and pwm components on a graphics card do much. In fact, I believe the general consensus is that watercooling the pwm and memory is a waste of resources. Which is why swiftech makes these:
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/GTX275.asp
and
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/mcw60-R.asp
Good points. But here is where I am a bit uncertain. Let's say i do have a triple-fan radiator at the top of the case, which in my case (bad, bad pun!!) will be the Corsair 800D. Now, let's say further that I have both the CPU and GPU on one loop, which feeds into that radiator. And there are fans below the radiator which push air through the radiator.

So the fans are doing double-duty, at least i think they are. That is, they are cooling the radiator and they are also removing the heat from the case from the air-cooled components. I'm saying this because on this forum and over at the Corsair forum, people are saying that the stock fans that come with the 800D aren't enough for good cooling. So people are saying that you need to add fans to the top of the case, even if you are just air-cooling.

I hope you see what I am driving at. I need to add fans to the top of the case whether I am air-cooling or water-cooling. Now, heat is heat is heat. Does it matter if the heat is being removed from the overall inside of the case or from the radiator. I hope I am explaining myself clearly enough. (If not, just come back at me and I'll try it again.)
 

King Icewind

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So the fans will be pushing the warm air, from everything in your computer, through the rad?

You wouldn't be getting as good of temps as you could that way. Especially with a gpu and cpu all in one loop.
 

Zoson

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If your main system components are cooled by water, why do you need to aircool them? Pull cool air through your radiator into your case. Then exhaust it elsewhere.
 

Dan_D

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If your main system components are cooled by water, why do you need to aircool them? Pull cool air through your radiator into your case. Then exhaust it elsewhere.
It helps with the ambient airflow and really, unless your radiator sits on the outside of the case, you'll need that cool air to come through the normal intake fans to get to your radiator.
 

Zoson

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It helps with the ambient airflow and really, unless your radiator sits on the outside of the case, you'll need that cool air to come through the normal intake fans to get to your radiator.
Or you can just turn your fans around and pull cool air in directly through the radiator from outside ambient, and get way better cooling. Instead of pulling air into your case, letting it cool the inconsequential things that don't need to be cooled well, and then dumping hot air through your radiator.
 

x509

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So I got my 6 fans yesterday. Plugged them in and started up my computer...I've built a hovercraft! It's loud! Idc tho :)
LOL! I thought the whole idea behind watercooling was to get a system that was higher-performance AND quieter :p than an aircooled system.
 

Zoson

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LOL! I thought the whole idea behind watercooling was to get a system that was higher-performance AND quieter :p than an aircooled system.
There are two 'camps' within watercooling.
The first camp shoots for silence, and any overclocking you get beyond stock is just a bonus.
The second camp shoots for all out performance, with total disregard to noise.

Because of these two camps, different product lines have emerged to cater to each group.

Some radiators have high FPI and some radiators have low FPI. The high FPI rads require high flow and high pressure(usually noisy) fans to perform their best. With these high speed fans, the high FPI rads can outperform the low FPI rads significantly. Unfortunately the density of these rads is a double edged sword due to the static pressure require to push air through them. When you equip them with low speed fans, their performance drops off very quickly.

Low FPI rads suffer from the opposite effect. Because of their low density, low speed fans can effectively push air through them, and the air absorbs heat. However, at a certain point(It's different, depending on the rad) their performance will stop scaling well with higher speed fans because they lack the surface area to take advantage of the additional volume of air. There simply is not enough area to spread the heat out onto effectively to be dissipated.

So, depending on the amount of heat you're putting into your loop(some people just have CPU's, others cool everything they can find a waterblock for), and your 'view' on watercooling, you will select your components accordingly.

If you're only cooling your CPU, and you get a 3x120mm radiator, you should go for a low FPI rad, because you don't have a whole lot of heat, and you'll be able to get rid of all of it silently.

If you have a full loop of cpu, nb, mosfet, sb, 2x gpu's and you only get a 3x120mm radiator, you should go for a high FPI rad and super high speed fans, because you're dumping a ton of heat into your coolant, and a low FPI rad won't cut it.

Of course in the situation where you have a full loop, instead of getting a single 3x120mm high FPI rad with high speed fans, you could go with two 3x120mm low FPI rads. But at that point you are affecting cost, and space required.

Hope that clears it up for you.
 

King Icewind

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Yea, i defiantly didn't get the water cooling for quietness...for looks and performance.

Ill be posting some pics of the final build within the week. ;)
 

lollerskater69

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I run 47cfm yates on my rad and my temps are great.

Just faster fans makes our temps even better :)
 

BillParrish

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I had the understanding that static pressure is the pressure exerted by air or water, in our case air. Fans that are 38mm thick usually provide more because the blades are deeper?(couldn't find a word for that) and that is what helps high FPI rads like the GTX and GTS shine because the 38mm thick fans have the PRESSURE to push through the high fin density of the radiator. Correct me if I am wrong because I am just going with what I understood static pressure to be.

Best shrouds are empty fans lol. Ghetto but effective.
Your are correct, I kinda triped myself up due to the way I think about fans. We usually are looking for a fan that will deliver a higher static pressure at some CFM/RPM which helps overcome the resistance to flow provided by rad fins or whatever. So in my mind over the years I started to equate the flow resistance to the fans static pressure or more correctly the fans ability (static pressure) to over come the "system resistance" or "back pressure" if you will. So I started using the term incorrectly. I interchanged the fans static pressure with the system backpressure. You are exactly right. Given two fans that flow the same CFM @ some RPM we would want the fan with the higher static pressure as it would tend to be more powerful and less affected by increases in resistance to the airflow say to dust build up in the fins blah blah.

You are right. I was mistaken/mispoken. Thanks for setting me straight I like to say what I mean and mean what I say and I was using the terms backwards. :eek:
 

King Icewind

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Hmm...I wasn't really looking all that hard, but I didn't see anything for cleaning tubing in the FAQ Sticky...?

If i don't need to clean it then great, but if I do, any suggestions on the best way to clean 20 feet of tubing? :eek:

Thanks
 
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Zoson

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Hmm...I wasn't really looking all that hard, but I didn't see anything for cleaning tubing in the FAQ Sticky...?

If i don't need to clean it then great, but if I do, any suggestions on the best way to clean 20 feet of tubing? :eek:

Thanks
If it's new, don't bother.
Otherwise, you can pick up a lab flask cleaner, and use some rubbing alcohol.
 

Dan_D

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Addiction seems to be a theme on the forum for the last few days.

On that note, I have purchased three CPU waterblocks in the last two months.
I've only purchased two. A Koolance CPU-350-AT and a Swiftech Apogee GTZ.
 

Zoson

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I've only purchased two. A Koolance CPU-350-AT and a Swiftech Apogee GTZ.
I gotta say, aside from the superb mounting system, I was rather disappointed with my GTZ. Which is why I replaced it with the Enzotech Sapphire.
 

Dan_D

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I gotta say, aside from the superb mounting system, I was rather disappointed with my GTZ. Which is why I replaced it with the Enzotech Sapphire.
What did you not like about the mounting system?
 

x509

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So the fans will be pushing the warm air, from everything in your computer, through the rad?

You wouldn't be getting as good of temps as you could that way. Especially with a gpu and cpu all in one loop.
How much difference? Let's say I wanted to overclock the i7 920 to 4 GHz or faster. And I had a mid-range GPU that cost me say $200+ which I didn't overclock?

Would it be practical to just add a second radiator. Case is a Corsair 800D, which has lots of room.

Thanks.
 

Dan_D

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How much difference? Let's say I wanted to overclock the i7 920 to 4 GHz or faster. And I had a mid-range GPU that cost me say $200+ which I didn't overclock?

Would it be practical to just add a second radiator. Case is a Corsair 800D, which has lots of room.

Thanks.
If you have a good triple radiator it should be able to handle the heat load of both your CPU and your graphics card. Even a high end graphics card and Core i7 should be fine on the same loop. Now if you want to start cooling the motherboard, CPU, dual or triple graphics cards, etc. a separate loop is probably advisable.
 

Zoson

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What did you not like about the mounting system?
No, no. ASIDE from the SUPERB mounting system.
I like the mounting system of the GTZ.

I was disappointed in the performance, which was non-existant in comparison to my pre-release DTek MP-05.

Although the Enzotech Sapphire's Mount is pretty much just as simple and easy as the Swiftech.
 

Dan_D

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I haven't tried to change the mounting hardware on the GTZ myself yet. However in the past I've hated the fact that you had to take the block completely apart to change mounting hardware. That is just piss poor planning during the design phase.
 

x509

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There are two 'camps' within watercooling.
The first camp shoots for silence, and any overclocking you get beyond stock is just a bonus.
The second camp shoots for all out performance, with total disregard to noise.
Aha! I know some guys are going to roll their eyes and say, "where has this guy been?" :rolleyes: but when it comes to watercooling, calling me "n00b" would be giving me a "promotion." :)

I definitely fall into the first camp. I'm tired of really noisy systems, and I want my next system to be quiet as well as powerful. My next system will be built around an ASUS P6TD Extreme with an i7 920 overclocked as much as possible, for heavy duty Photoshopping of large images, but I'm not a gamer. 6 or maybe 12 GB of RAM, speed TBD, 1 only mid-range GPU tbd, running Windows 7 Ultimate, all housed in a Corsair 800D case. Plus the 4 hard drives and DVD burner now in my current system.

So I've read about how "insanely easy" it is to overclock an i7 920 to 4 GHz, so I want to do that, but without making my system sound like a 747 taking off.

I need only one graphics card, because Photoshop (and all of Adobe CS 4) only supports one GPU, and I'll spend a few more bucks on the card, if I need to do that for better performance, rather than try to overclock the GPU and have to spend a whole lot more on watercooling.

Because of these two camps, different product lines have emerged to cater to each group.

Some radiators have high FPI and some radiators have low FPI.
FPI is fins per inch? Whatever it is, your explanation below makes it clear that I should pick a low FPI radiator. Now, who makes a low FPI radiator? Or, what consistutes low FPI?

The high FPI rads require high flow and high pressure(usually noisy) fans to perform their best. With these high speed fans, the high FPI rads can outperform the low FPI rads significantly. Unfortunately the density of these rads is a double edged sword due to the static pressure require to push air through them. When you equip them with low speed fans, their performance drops off very quickly.

Low FPI rads suffer from the opposite effect. Because of their low density, low speed fans can effectively push air through them, and the air absorbs heat. However, at a certain point(It's different, depending on the rad) their performance will stop scaling well with higher speed fans because they lack the surface area to take advantage of the additional volume of air. There simply is not enough area to spread the heat out onto effectively to be dissipated.
Yeah, that's very clear. I want a low FPI radiator. Is there any way to calculate how much total heat a low FPI radiator can throw off, or how much total heat the radiator can handle before it stops scaling?

So, depending on the amount of heat you're putting into your loop(some people just have CPU's, others cool everything they can find a waterblock for), and your 'view' on watercooling, you will select your components accordingly.

If you're only cooling your CPU, and you get a 3x120mm radiator, you should go for a low FPI rad, because you don't have a whole lot of heat, and you'll be able to get rid of all of it silently.

If you have a full loop of cpu, nb, mosfet, sb, 2x gpu's and you only get a 3x120mm radiator, you should go for a high FPI rad and super high speed fans, because you're dumping a ton of heat into your coolant, and a low FPI rad won't cut it.
I will definitely want to cool the CPU and GPU, so I can get rid of the fans on those coolers. As for cooling the nb, mosfet (no sb in the P58 chipset), I dunno. Also, you haven't mentioned RAM, but other guys have told me that air cooling is OK for RAM, even reallly high performance RAM.

Of course in the situation where you have a full loop, instead of getting a single 3x120mm high FPI rad with high speed fans, you could go with two 3x120mm low FPI rads. But at that point you are affecting cost, and space required.

Hope that clears it up for you.
Your post absolutely clears things up for me. ;) I think I will want to stick with one loop, and hope I can avoid having to put in a second 3 x 120 low FPI rad.

Knowing all this makes me more willing to spend a few extra bucks on the newly announced AMD/ATI 5850, because supposely that card runs much cooler than its predecessors and competitive cards from nVidia that have roughly equivalent performance. :)

Yes, you have cleared up a whole lot, means means narrowing down the range of choices. :cool:
 

Zoson

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So I've read about how "insanely easy" it is to overclock an i7 920 to 4 GHz, so I want to do that, but without making my system sound like a 747 taking off.
I can't attest to how easy or not it is with an i7. I generally take the 'gimme' overclock that people advertise and knock it down by about 20%. I find a lot of FUD on every overclocking forum where people are either not properly testing for stability, or falsely claiming stability at a given speed.

FPI is fins per inch? Whatever it is, your explanation below makes it clear that I should pick a low FPI radiator. Now, who makes a low FPI radiator? Or, what consistutes low FPI?
XSPC is 8FPI, HWLabs SR1 is 9FPI, and Thermochill is 10FPI.

Yeah, that's very clear. I want a low FPI radiator. Is there any way to calculate how much total heat a low FPI radiator can throw off, or how much total heat the radiator can handle before it stops scaling?
The only place I've found that is doing meaningful comparisons of watercooling equipment is Skinee Labs:
http://www.skinneelabs.com/

Unfortunately they are engineers, and not journalists and publishers... So the material tends to be very dense.

I will definitely want to cool the CPU and GPU, so I can get rid of the fans on those coolers. As for cooling the nb, mosfet (no sb in the P58 chipset), I dunno. Also, you haven't mentioned RAM, but other guys have told me that air cooling is OK for RAM, even reallly high performance RAM.
Lots to touch on here...
GPU overclocking, in my opinion, is one of those 'highly unnecessary' but 'nice' additions to watercooling. The percentage increases you get by adding cooling to a GPU are very small. Just last weekend, I added GPU cooling to my loop. This was after only having my CPU, NB, and SB watercooled and finding out what my chips could do. I had enough headroom left in my cooler to add some more heat, so I did.

Mind you, these cards are GTX275's that came with the SC bios from EVGA. They both overclocked to FTW speeds on air with the fans running at 60%, which is virtually silent.

Watercooling your power circuitry is completely unnecessary. Stick some good solid copper coolers on them from Enzotech or some of those heatpiped Thermalright and you're well beyond any cooling required.

Likewise, watercooling your memory is also completely unnecessary. The heatspreaders that come on them nowdays are... Significantly oversized for the most part. Generally you should only really care if it has a heatspreader or not. Manufacturer of your memory makes a much bigger difference. I've had good luck with Crucial, Kingston, Corsair, G.Skill, and Patriot. Of course if you get one of their value lines... Expect to get what you pay for.

Northbridge watercooling is one of the most important factors to getting the most overclock out of your chip. Nowdays it is more about getting the luck of the draw on a motherboard enabling you to get a higher bus speed(bclk in i7).

Anyway, my parts suggestions are:
CPU: Enzotech Sapphire (can be had at newegg as a combo with i7 mounting for only $35!)
NB: Whatever EK or Bitspower makes for your motherboard
SB/Equivalent: From what I've seen x58 NB coolers include southbridge cooling. If not - Swiftech MCW30
GPU: Swiftech MCW60 with full coverage extruded aluminum heatsink.(Keeps mem/pwm cooled by air, but core cooled by water)
Power: I have Enzotech forged copper heatsinks. I like them more than the Thermalright offerings...
Pump: MCP655
Rads: HWLabs SR1 series
Fans: Enermax Magma Twister(top speed of ~1600RPM pushing ~70CFM at very low noise, responds to undervolting very nicely)
Res: Swiftech MCRes Micro v2
Barbs/Tubes: Get everything with 1/2" ID 5/8" OD
Clamps: Don't forget these. Herbie clips will do the job, but I recently switched to bitspower compression clamps(not to be confused with compression fittings). Herbie clips are a pain to remove and work with in general.
 
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