Valve have hired another developer to work on Linux graphics drivers.

Frobozz said:
I think the article discusses the different aspects of the situation well. Kindofa bummer if it trends, especially for titles that don't have cross platform multiplayer. It would probably hamper adoption a bit going forward.

The point I was getting at (and I guess still applies with that article) is that you still have access to 100% of your gaming library since you would still have a Windows license and access to all those existing games. Whether or not you (general you) cared enough about that to build a Windows solution (dedicated box, VM, whathaveyou) is another thing. However, like my SNES, it doesn't stop making games accessible because I'm playing on something else now.

Have you seen any other articles about SteamPlay being discontinued? It's a fascinating development now that Microsoft is starting to copy the concept with the Xbox.
Click to expand...

I've tried this approach before. Heatlesssun cannot see the point in dual booting or running another PC using Linux as Windows does everything he needs an OS to do. From that point onwards his wants and needs in relation to PC usage become a blanket that covers everything relating to the [H] user base. I have to emphasise that these are all his words, I'm not assuming anything here.
 
Frobozz said:
The point I was getting at (and I guess still applies with that article) is that you still have access to 100% of your gaming library since you would still have a Windows license and access to all those existing games. Whether or not you (general you) cared enough about that to build a Windows solution (dedicated box, VM, whathaveyou) is another thing. However, like my SNES, it doesn't stop making games accessible because I'm playing on something else now.
Click to expand...

There's one BIG difference between PCs and other gaming platforms. Platforms besides PCs have a variety of games exclusive or unique to a particular platform. So indeed one might have an Switch, Xbox and PS to cover all the games they might want to play. Virtually all PC games have a Windows. Linux and macOS come no where close and in absolute terms they are every day falling behind in game titles. The gap between both macOS and Linux in game count compared to Windows on Steam is considerably greater than when macOS and Linux had ZERO games on Steam. These facts are simply make gaming on Linux a tough sell to people who simply want to play PC games and could care less about the OS. And it makes it a touch sell to people who are big into PC gaming and have lots of money spent on playing games.

Windows has it's issues, but for PC gaming, Linux has a lot more.

Frobozz said:
Have you seen any other articles about SteamPlay being discontinued? It's a fascinating development now that Microsoft is starting to copy the concept with the Xbox.
Click to expand...

The first I heard of this. And it's certainly not anything to encourage Windows gamers to game on Linux. It would be one thing if there were a catalog of games to play under Linux not on Windows. Then it becomes much easier to justify running both Windows and Linux for gaming. But with PC gaming being nearly 100% Windows compatible and Linux well less than that, it's just common sense how that'll play out with most people.
 
BulletDust said:
I've tried this approach before. Heatlesssun cannot see the point in dual booting or running another PC using Linux as Windows does everything he needs an OS to do. From that point onwards his wants and needs in relation to PC usage become a blanket that covers everything relating to the [H] user base. I have to emphasise that these are all his words, I'm not assuming anything here.
Click to expand...

Dual booting to play games? No, it makes no sense when virtually all games have Windows versions and when so few have Linux versions. And I'm far from the only one that sees it just like that.
 
heatlesssun said:
There's one BIG difference between PCs and other gaming platforms. Platforms besides PCs have a variety of games exclusive or unique to a particular platform. So indeed one might have an Switch, Xbox and PS to cover all the games they might want to play. Virtually all PC games have a Windows. Linux and macOS come no where close and in absolute terms they are every day falling behind in game titles. The gap between both macOS and Linux in game count compared to Windows on Steam is considerably greater than when macOS and Linux had ZERO games on Steam. These facts are simply make gaming on Linux a tough sell to people who simply want to play PC games and could care less about the OS. And it makes it a touch sell to people who are big into PC gaming and have lots of money spent on playing games.

Windows has it's issues, but for PC gaming, Linux has a lot more.

The first I heard of this. And it's certainly not anything to encourage Windows gamers to game on Linux. It would be one thing if there were a catalog of games to play under Linux not on Windows. Then it becomes much easier to justify running both Windows and Linux for gaming. But with PC gaming being nearly 100% Windows compatible and Linux well less than that, it's just common sense how that'll play out with most people.
Click to expand...

I appreciate your post's construction and largely agree. I think the trick is that people who are buying into Linux for gaming do have cares about the OS or at least some motivator aside from only gaming. (be it programming, software freedom, education, or even hipsterness) Those that really don't care, only want to play games, and have money to burn will almost certainly go Windows. Sure.
 
heatlesssun said:
There's one BIG difference between PCs and other gaming platforms. Platforms besides PCs have a variety of games exclusive or unique to a particular platform. So indeed one might have an Switch, Xbox and PS to cover all the games they might want to play. Virtually all PC games have a Windows. Linux and macOS come no where close and in absolute terms they are every day falling behind in game titles. The gap between both macOS and Linux in game count compared to Windows on Steam is considerably greater than when macOS and Linux had ZERO games on Steam. These facts are simply make gaming on Linux a tough sell to people who simply want to play PC games and could care less about the OS. And it makes it a touch sell to people who are big into PC gaming and have lots of money spent on playing games.

Windows has it's issues, but for PC gaming, Linux has a lot more.
Click to expand...

Once again. People are switching platforms due to issues with Windows and they can accept the loss of a few titles, as very few people have the abnormal amount of time to devote to toys that you appear to have and rarely have 200 titles under Steam, or whatever you deem to be impressive (if not a bit sad). In terms of gaming, Windows may be the most supported OS, in terms of issues Linux has very few when compared directly to Windows - Hence why people are jumping ship.

Once again. The fact that Windows has more releases than Linux or MacOS is in no way surprising, yet you keep reiterating this worthless nugget of information for some obscure reason. This is all based on time, and when you consider the amount of time Windows has been the most supported OS on Steam it comes as no surprise that it's the platform developers are going to flock to at present - So stop chanting this worthless mantra!

Time does not stand still and neither does the rate of development in relation to a chosen platform. OSX has been supported under Steam probably at least twice as long as Linux and yet Linux is within 1500 titles of OSX, development of Linux under Steam is coming along at a more than impressive rate. Development cannot be compared to Windows, the OS that has been the only platform to be supported under Steam since the beginning of Steam itself, as to do so would be pointless and stupid as you'd simply be stating the obvious and unsurprising.

The fact that people are switching to Linux indicates, quite obviously, that many gamers aren't the stupid bastards you deem them to be and do actually care about the chosen OS on their system as they appear to be rightfully pissed about Microsoft and their latest direction. They're also becoming quite vocal about it.
 
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heatlesssun said:
Dual booting to play games? No, it makes no sense when virtually all games have Windows versions and when so few have Linux versions. And I'm far from the only one that sees it just like that.
Click to expand...

There's about another two of his followers that think like that, we have no idea what the other thousands of [H] forum users think....
 
Frobozz said:
I appreciate your post's construction and largely agree. I think the trick is that people who are buying into Linux for gaming do have cares about the OS or at least some motivator aside from only gaming. (be it programming, software freedom, education, or even hipsterness) Those that really don't care, only want to play games, and have money to burn will almost certainly go Windows. Sure.
Click to expand...

It's a lot more than just gaming. Programming? Development tooling for Windows is excellent. Software freedom? Pretty free to use an incredible library of Windows software. Hell there's even a Linux subsystem in Windows 10. I guess I see a lot of people around here who crap all over Windows and see nothing but problems. I use it everyday for work and play without incident. Linux is great on servers, mobile devices, supercomputers. I've never discounted Linux for the things it's obviously good at. But after all these years of this debate, and it's been like 20, Linux on the desktop, after all this time there's just too many gaps in 3rd party support. And it's because of market share. It's a tough one, a chicken or the egg scenario.
 
Frobozz said:
Those that really don't care, only want to play games, and have money to burn will almost certainly go Windows. Sure.
Click to expand...

And it has to be considered that such people are a minority of a minority. Considering the all encompassing Steam statistics, which at times appear questionable at best and we have no idea just what methods Steam use to work them out, most people run DX10 or DX11 grade PC's, with minimal ram and some form of Intel HD graphics with 1080p displays.
 
heatlesssun said:
It's a lot more than just gaming. Programming? Development tooling for Windows is excellent. Software freedom? Pretty free to use an incredible library of Windows software. Hell there's even a Linux subsystem in Windows 10. I guess I see a lot of people around here who crap all over Windows and see nothing but problems. I use it everyday for work and play without incident. Linux is great on servers, mobile devices, supercomputers. I've never discounted Linux for the things it's obviously good at. But after all these years of this debate, and it's been like 20, Linux on the desktop, after all this time there's just too many gaps in 3rd party support. And it's because of market share. It's a tough one, a chicken or the egg scenario.
Click to expand...

Linux usage has doubled in recent times, you need to stop thinking back 20 years ago. This comment is bullshit as once again time does not stand still and neither does the rate of adoption or development.

20 years ago Linux was totally FOSS, these days there is increasing 3rd party proprietary support and FOSS based software is improving. Yes, FOSS is supported under Windows most of the time, but it's the issues under Windows itself and Microsoft's latest direction that's become the crux of the problem pushing people away from the platform.
 
BulletDust said:
Once again. People are switching platforms due to issues with Windows and they can accept the loss of a few titles, as very few people have the abnormal amount of time to devote to toys that you appear to have and rarely have 200 titles under Steam, or whatever you deem to be impressive (if not a bit sad). In terms of gaming, Windows may be the most supported OS, in terms of issues Linux has very few when compared directly to Windows - Hence why people are jumping ship.
Click to expand...

LOL! A forum filled with people who've have spent most or their whole lives with PCs. There's plenty of folks here with more "toys" than me. And sure, if one is moving to Linux because of issues with Windows, sure I get that. I've got 8 devices in the house running Windows 10. And pretty soon it'll be the client I use for work. So if you're a person that hates Windows and doesn't game much, sure, moving to Linux is hell of lot easier than someone with setups, like the company issued laptop that HAS to have Windows 10 it.

BulletDust said:
Once again. The fact that Windows has more releases than Linux or MacOS is in no way surprising, yet you keep reiterating this worthless nugget of information for some obscure reason.
Click to expand...

If 3rd party software support were that worthless, everyone would be able to dump Windows today. What you call worthless is why Windows endures. It's only damned reason to use Windows unless you have no clue or care about a desktop OS, which is most everyone these days.

BulletDust said:
This is all based on time, and when you consider the amount of time Windows has been the most supported OS on Steam it comes as no surprise that it's the platform developers are going to flock to at present - So stop chanting this worthless mantra!
Click to expand...

It's not time, it's market share.



BulletDust said:
Time
Click to expand...
BulletDust said:
does not stand still and neither does the rate of development in relation to a chosen platform. OSX has been supported under Steam probably at least twice as long as Linux and yet Linux is within 1500 titles of OSX, development of Linux under Steam is coming along at a more than impressive rate. Development cannot be compared to Windows, the OS that has been the only platform to be supported under Steam since the beginning of Steam itself, as to do so would be pointless and stupid as you'd simply be stating the obvious and unsurprising.
Click to expand...

This is the oddest thing you say in all of this. Linux growth is in 3RD PLACE. It's not closing the gap with either macOS or Windows. It never has. Yes, it when from zero to something.

BulletDust said:
The fact that people are switching to Linux indicates, quite obviously, that many gamers aren't the stupid bastards you deem them to be and do actually care about the chosen OS on their system as they appear to be rightfully pissed about Microsoft and their latest direction. They're also becoming quite vocal about it.
Click to expand...

That people are switching to Linux to game, there's not a lot of data to support that position. If it is the case, you'd think developers might write more Linux games than they are now.
 
BulletDust said:
Linux usage has doubled in recent times, you need to stop thinking back 20 years ago. This comment is bullshit as once again time does not stand still and neither does the rate of adoption or development.

20 years ago Linux was totally FOSS, these days there is increasing 3rd party proprietary support and FOSS based software is improving. Yes, FOSS is supported under Windows most of the time, but it's the issues under Windows itself and Microsoft's latest direction that's become the crux of the problem pushing people away from the platform.
Click to expand...

It's just like 20 years ago though. People WAY overhyping desktop Linux. PC gaming on Linux? It's still beyond pointless for anyone other than Microsoft/Windows haters. Again, I'm just talking about gaming. I've never said that Linux can't be a good desktop OS for certain situations. But not gaming.
 
heatlesssun said:
LOL! A forum filled with people who've have spent most or their whole lives with PCs. There's plenty of folks here with more "toys" than me. And sure, if one is moving to Linux because of issues with Windows, sure I get that. I've got 8 devices in the house running Windows 10. And pretty soon it'll be the client I use for work. So if you're a person that hates Windows and doesn't game much, sure, moving to Linux is hell of lot easier than someone with setups, like the company issued laptop that HAS to have Windows 10 it.
Click to expand...

Really? Steam statistics prove otherwise, they highlight low end PC's dominating over these so called high end bottomless pits you're ranting on about. Once again, a generalised statement based on nothing more than your worthless opinion. This is not a gaming forum.

heatlesssun said:
If 3rd party software support were that worthless, everyone would be able to dump Windows today. What you call worthless is why Windows endures. It's only damned reason to use Windows unless you have no clue or care about a desktop OS, which is most everyone these days.
Click to expand...

Wow..Wow!

The statement 'worthless' related to this rhetoric you keep chanting as we're all fully aware of such facts, not once did I state that 3rd party support was worthless. Intelligence?

heatlesssun said:
It's not time, it's market share.
Click to expand...

No shit!

Market share based on the amount of time in the market place! Adoption is rarely instantaneous you fool!

heatlesssun said:
This is the oddest thing you say in all of this. Linux growth is in 3RD PLACE. It's not closing the gap with either macOS or Windows. It never has. Yes, it when from zero to something.
Click to expand...

And Linux has been supported under Steam for the least amount of time! The only odd thing here is your comprehension skills, or lack thereof!

heatlesssun said:
That people are switching to Linux to game, there's not a lot of data to support that position. If it is the case, you'd think developers might write more Linux games than they are now.
Click to expand...

I claimed that people are switching to Linux due to the undebatable issues surrounding Windows 10 and the obvious direction of MS, increased gaming support is simply making the decision to move away from Windows easier for some.
 
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heatlesssun said:
It's just like 20 years ago though. People WAY overhyping desktop Linux. PC gaming on Linux? It's still beyond pointless for anyone other than Microsoft/Windows haters. Again, I'm just talking about gaming. I've never said that Linux can't be a good desktop OS for certain situations. But not gaming.
Click to expand...

Contrary to your bullshit claims, you don't use Linux, specifically desktop Linux. You have no idea what you are talking about and you are entirely incorrect.

Entirely....Incorrect. No one is overhyping anything. The current state of Linux is nothing like it was 20 bloody years ago.
 
When I think about having to move back to windows as the main OS, I feel about as good as I would about amputation. When you use windows you just can't feel relaxed. It's limiting, burdening and threatens your security in so many ways.
 
I have no desire to use Windows as I have no need to use Windows. Everything I to want to do, including gaming at very respectable framerates, I can do under Linux. Most of the software I used under Windows is supported under Linux. But according to Heatlesssun I'm over stating the OS based on an argument that started 20 years ago!

Don't mind the fact that ~7 years ago I was a devout Windows user....
 
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heatlesssun said:
It's a lot more than just gaming. Programming? Development tooling for Windows is excellent. Software freedom? Pretty free to use an incredible library of Windows software. Hell there's even a Linux subsystem in Windows 10. I guess I see a lot of people around here who crap all over Windows and see nothing but problems. I use it everyday for work and play without incident. Linux is great on servers, mobile devices, supercomputers. I've never discounted Linux for the things it's obviously good at. But after all these years of this debate, and it's been like 20, Linux on the desktop, after all this time there's just too many gaps in 3rd party support. And it's because of market share. It's a tough one, a chicken or the egg scenario.
Click to expand...
Sooo what I'm hearing is... People can't have sufficient reason to not run Windows?
 
Frobozz said:
Sooo what I'm hearing is... People can't have sufficient reason to not run Windows?
Click to expand...

There are plenty of reasons one could choose to run desktop Linux over Windows, I've constantly listed three major ones, free acquisition costs, no local malware to speak or and much more configurability. However some want to see it, Windows has a fantastic desktop ecosystem due to its market share. And that's why a lot of people use it.
 
heatlesssun said:
However some want to see it, Windows has a fantastic desktop ecosystem due to its market share.
Click to expand...
Which is also why it has malware.
Windows has a place, Linux has a place. Linux' place is growing on the desktop; maybe not by leaps and bounds but it's grown a lot over the last few years (since the GWX fiasco). Whether you admit it or not is up to you.
Due to PCI compliance most likely causing our home office to be in PCI scope over the next year or so, we may end up in changing all our Win7 machines (approximately 97% of all our workstations and laptops) to something like Ubuntu MATE in 2020.
We're not going to upgrade to Win10, I can guarantee you that. Not with our current infrastructure; won't happen. We can support it, from a hardware perspective, but we're not going to make all the concessions in rights and control that would ecompass a Win10 overhaul.

We currently are full blown WinServer/WinDesktop, Exchange environment, other than a few ESXi hosts, some Macs, and a few dev systems on Win10. IOW, a mass changeover to something like Ubuntu MATE would be quite a jump - but one I think we'd be more willing to take than a jump to Win10.

I would imagine we're "not the only ones".
 
heatlesssun said:
There are plenty of reasons one could choose to run desktop Linux over Windows, I've constantly listed three major ones, free acquisition costs, no local malware to speak or and much more configurability. However some want to see it, Windows has a fantastic desktop ecosystem due to its market share. And that's why a lot of people use it.
Click to expand...
The people who find advantage in those reasons enough to not run Windows, should they be excited to have games to play?
 
Frobozz said:
The people who find advantage in those reasons enough to not run Windows, should they be excited to have games to play?
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I think you're very reasonable about this debate. They say a picture is with a thousand words:

upload_2017-3-16_21-43-44.png


I don't love Windows, but the money spent on these kinds of cards simply can't get used for gaming running them under Linux.
 
heatlesssun said:
Absolutely. I think you're very reasonable about this debate. They say a picture is with a thousand words:

View attachment 19478

I don't love Windows, but the money spent on these kinds of cards simply can't get used for gaming running them under Linux.
Click to expand...

Bullshit! What makes you think that people gaming under Linux won't benefit from a more powerful graphics card!

Fuck me!
 
BulletDust said:
What makes you think that people gaming under Linux won't benefit from a more powerful graphics card!
Click to expand...

1. Where are the Linux gamers that buy this kind of hardware?
2. Where are the Linux games that benefit from this hardware?
 
BulletDust said:
Bullshit! What makes you think that people gaming under Linux won't benefit from a more powerful graphics card!

Fuck me!
Click to expand...
I am actually kind of curios what workloads on Linux benefit from this? Is there special 3D rendering software on Linux that gets used? I was thinking maybe geothermal mapping but they would be using a Quadro I imagine for the FP16.
 
Presbytier said:
I am actually kind of curios what workloads on Linux benefit from this?
Click to expand...

Of course Linux can use this kind of floating point power for anything that benefits from that kind of thing, like crytpomining or hash braking, etc. I never questioned that. My points were always frame in terms of gaming and it's beyond obvious that's an area where Linux gains little benefit from a gaming focused GPU.
 
heatlesssun said:
1. Where are the Linux gamers that buy this kind of hardware?
2. Where are the Linux games that benefit from this hardware?
Click to expand...

My God you're clutching at straws here aren't ya!

There is plenty of AAA ports under Linux that would benefit from this kind of hardware, every game in general would benefit from this kind of hardware if not just to increase levels of AA/AF! I'm already seeing Linux gamers under r/linux_gaming purchasing 1080Ti's!

You honestly think people don't game under Linux! It's so retarded! So very retarded!

Once again, nothing more than your worthless opinion sprouted as fact and applied as a generalised blanket statement. Intelligence?

Presbytier said:
I am actually kind of curios what workloads on Linux benefit from this? Is there special 3D rendering software on Linux that gets used? I was thinking maybe geothermal mapping but they would be using a Quadro I imagine for the FP16.
Click to expand...

Any of the number of applications that use CUDA acceleration or OpenCL under Linux would benefit from a more powerful graphics card, simply ripping a Bluray to .mkv would benefit from a more powerful graphics card provided the software supports GPU acceleration. Honestly, gaming is one of the more wasteful things you can do with mountains of GPU power.
 
BulletDust said:
My God you're clutching at straws here aren't ya!

There is plenty of AAA ports under Linux that would benefit from this kind of hardware, every game in general would benefit from this kind of hardware if not just to increase levels of AA/AF! I'm already seeing Linux gamers under r/linux_gaming purchasing 1080Ti's!

You honestly think people don't game under Linux! It's so retarded! So very retarded!

Once again, nothing more than your worthless opinion sprouted as fact and applied as a generalised blanket statement. Intelligence?
Click to expand...

Lot of assertions and insults here but no data or even personal experience.[/QUOTE]
 
heatlesssun said:
Lot of assertions and insults here but no data or even personal experience.
Click to expand...

What?!

I use everything, you proudly proclaim only to use Windows! WTF are you on about?

Are you assuming for some odd reason that I don't play games at times on my PC? We've been over this, brainfade again?
 
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I did a quick and dirty test and out of my entire game library only 20% was Linux compatible on Steam that is a significant enough reason for me not to make that kind of jump.
 
Presbytier said:
I did a quick and dirty test and out of my entire game library only 20% was Linux compatible on Steam that is a significant enough reason for me not to make that kind of jump.
Click to expand...

Gee, losing 80% of the programs on uses. You must be a Microsoft shill. If one thinks the hate against Windows 10 is strong, just imagine 80% software incompatibility.
 
Presbytier said:
I did a quick and dirty test and out of my entire game library only 20% was Linux compatible on Steam that is a significant enough reason for me not to make that kind of jump.
Click to expand...

Good for you, best you stick to Windows.

A great many people aren't in your position though and for them Linux is a great option for ridding themselves of all the issues surrounding Windows 10 not to mention the obscure direction MS is headed.
 
heatlesssun said:
Gee, losing 80% of the programs on uses. You must be a Microsoft shill. If one thinks the hate against Windows 10 is strong, just imagine 80% software incompatibility.
Click to expand...

A Microsoft shill would be an individual with 43,108 posts on [H]OCP, more than the sites owner in a smaller time frame, with most of those posts blowing hot wind up the arse of Microsoft.

No one ever stated that Linux was for everyone. But Steam statistics highlight that hardcore gaming PC's and therefore hardcore gaming enthusiasts aren't as numerous as you would like to assume, with most of them running DX10 or 11 based PC's with minimal amounts of ram and Intel HD graphics.
 
heatlesssun said:
Then I would love to see some of Linux game benchmarks. Oh that's right, you don't have the time.;)
Click to expand...

There's benchmarks available everywhere! Why do you want to see my benchmarks?

Don't you believe me? Why the hell would I lie in a ridiculous argument with yourself! :LOL:

And you're right, I do have better things to do than play with my PC every waking moment.
 
BulletDust said:
Good for you, best you stick to Windows.
Click to expand...

And good for you, stick to Linux on the desktop. You don't play any games, you don't have any late great hardware, at least none that you mention. Your VR experience is from the 90's?
 
heatlesssun said:
And good for you, stick to Linux on the desktop. You don't play any games, you don't have any late great hardware, at least none that you mention. Your VR experience is from the 90's?
Click to expand...

I play plenty of games. Furthermore, as a PC tech who upgrades and builds a variety of PC's from ranging from laptops to standard desktops and full blown gaming machines I'm surrounded by hardware and I get it all at reseller discount. We've been over my VR experience, brain fade again?

Once again, a massive generalisation based on your own worthless opinion. If I wanted to build a gaming PC just like yours it wouldn't be an issue, stop throwing your weenie ewang around.
 
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