VA better than IPS for eye comfort and reading?

vick1000

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Some of the new Samsung VAs have TN like response times, which includes no black smearing.
Check out the Samsung G7 on tftcentral: https://tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/samsung_odyssey_g7_c27g75t#Detailed-Response-Times
The reviews I have seen state it's stil there, just not as bad. Typically, if you raise gamma or brightness, it reduces smearing, because you are reducing the number black pixels into gray. Grey change response is far better than black. So for the worst cases, it's probably a factor of not using a good calibration, or having too much black crush with bad settings. But the gamma shift is still unbearable, and the smearing is an issue if you want anything black, defeating the advantage VA has, because the further you lower the white point and output, the worse the crush/ smearing gets.
 
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xykreilon

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The reviews I have seen state it's stil there, just not as bad. Typically, if you raise gamma or brightness, it reduces smearing, because you are reducing the number black pixels into gray. Grey change response is far better than black. So for the worst cases, it's probably a factor of not using a good calibration, or having too much black crush with bad settings. But the gamma shift is still unbearable, and the smearing is an issue if you want anything black, defeating the advantage VA has, because the further you lower the white point and output, the worse the crush/ smearing gets.
I agree with everything you've said for pretty much any other VA.
But, I don't know man. I think Samsung really did some magic with these new VA monitors. The worst black to gray response time measured by tftcentral was 14ms, which is lower than the whole response time of lots of IPS panels. I see no black smearing in the alien shots, and I don't see anything in videos either.
pursuit1.jpg

MBR:
mbr.jpg

Looks cleaner than many TNs to me, really.
 
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vick1000

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Looks cleaner than many TNs to me, really.
The UFO test has nothing to do with black smearing.
Make a text document, or use the FlatpanelsHD app to make a white text on black background page, and scroll or movve it around.
 

xykreilon

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The UFO test has nothing to do with black smearing.
Make a text document, or use the FlatpanelsHD app to make a white text on black background page, and scroll or movve it around.
To say the UFO test is not as transparent as a white on black test in showing black smearing is true. To say the UFO test has nothing to do with it is hyperbole.
Take any previous VA panel's UFO test, and there will be very noticeable black smearing. For that case of smearing to be totally gone on this G7 is really impressive.
I'd be curious to see what white text on a black background would show for this panel as well. But, something tells me 14ms worst case scenario black to gray is not going to be much meaningful.
 
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Ors

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The worst black to gray response time measured by tftcentral was 14ms, which is lower than the whole response time of lots of IPS panels.
It can still be an issue since it's the difference between best and worst that counts here for the smear to appear, not necessarily only the absolute value. An IPS with consistent 30ms response will actually not exhibit (black) smearing while in use since the difference between best and worst is low. I'm not saying the Samsung is bad (I'd actually give it a try if they had a 4k 32" version of it and report back), but so far any VA I had had noticeable smear even though reviewers (even tft central) didn't mention it as a problem. I run all my displays at sub 30 brightness (anything above I feel like staring into the sun) and never had this issue with any IPS screen (even very old ones from 20+ years ago).
 
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xykreilon

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It can still be an issue since it's the difference between best and worst that counts here for the smear to appear, not necessarily only the absolute value. An IPS with consistent 30ms response will actually not exhibit (black) smearing while in use since the difference between best and worst is low. I'm not saying the Samsung is bad (I'd actually give it a try if they had a 4k 32" version of it and report back), but so far any VA I had had noticeable smear even though reviewers (even tft central) didn't mention it as a problem. I run all my displays at sub 30 brightness (anything above I feel like staring into the sun) and never had this issue with any IPS screen (even very old ones from 20+ years ago).
Gotcha. Ya, makes sense.
I guess I'm in a minority that's bothered by poor black levels more than smear.
 

vick1000

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Gotcha. Ya, makes sense.
I guess I'm in a minority that's bothered by poor black levels more than smear.
Poor black levels, within reason, would not be as much of an issue with IPS, if it were not for the "IPS glow" and uniformity issues (bleed), on black or dark backgrounds. It's really the only drawback of IPS compared to other LCD tech, but it is a huge issue.
I don't know if anyone in this thread is old enough to remeber the NEC ATW polarizer, but I would love to see it implmented on a modern IPS with FA backlight, and typical modern contrast ratios of 1K:1, at say 120hz.
 

xykreilon

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Poor black levels, within reason, would not be as much of an issue with IPS, if it were not for the "IPS glow" and uniformity issues (bleed), on black or dark backgrounds. It's really the only drawback of IPS compared to other LCD tech, but it is a huge issue.
I don't know if anyone in this thread is old enough to remeber the NEC ATW polarizer, but I would love to see it implmented on a modern IPS with FA backlight, and typical modern contrast ratios of 1K:1, at say 120hz.
Would be great, ya. With how low modern IPS response times are getting, an IPS with good black levels could be endgame display tech. None of the burn-in of OLED. Plus, let's face it, MicroLED is a pipe dream.
 
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Necere

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Poor black levels, within reason, would not be as much of an issue with IPS, if it were not for the "IPS glow" and uniformity issues (bleed), on black or dark backgrounds. It's really the only drawback of IPS compared to other LCD tech, but it is a huge issue.
I don't know if anyone in this thread is old enough to remeber the NEC ATW polarizer, but I would love to see it implmented on a modern IPS with FA backlight, and typical modern contrast ratios of 1K:1, at say 120hz.
LG is planning to produce 27" and 31.5" panels with something they're calling "IPS Black," which sounds an awful lot like A-TW:

image-200.png


From TFTCentral.


I'm guessing these will be targeted at color-critical displays rather than gaming or media displays though.
 

petrthomas

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In my experience it's the other way around. IPS will top VA screens for office work any day. Only thing going for VA there is it's price, which usually is lower. And no, the extra 15Hz won't help with stress on eyes. But 60Hz is adequate for office work anyway since you don't have as much continuous movement as in a FPS game... What has a much bigger impact for office work is PPI, the higher the better, and make sure you get a "flicker free" monitor as they advertise them now (no PWM used for brightness control).
Exactly, i have owned both VA and IPS monitors and for me, IPS is better for eye comfort.
 

XoR_

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Poor black levels, within reason, would not be as much of an issue with IPS, if it were not for the "IPS glow" and uniformity issues (bleed), on black or dark backgrounds. It's really the only drawback of IPS compared to other LCD tech, but it is a huge issue.
I don't know if anyone in this thread is old enough to remeber the NEC ATW polarizer, but I would love to see it implmented on a modern IPS with FA backlight, and typical modern contrast ratios of 1K:1, at say 120hz.
I use A-TW on daily basis for years now. Exactly the HP DreamColor LP2480zx. Monitor is from 2010 so quite dated but it still seems like using future tech like A-TW and RGB-LED backlight. It is most pleasant to look at panel I even owned and this is despite it using PWM to control backlight, even at 100% brightness. I do not quite get how that is possible but who cares if eyes do not complain 🙃

The panel is actually from LG and I think NEC also used LG panels in their 2090UXi, 2490WUXi and 2690WUXi, which are the only other monitors using A-TW polarizer. There were also two other monitors using the same panel as the one I have in my HP DreamColor, one from LG, the W2420R model and I actually had this one in the past. There was also some Quato monitor which no one ever saw except Quato engineers and guy from prad.de. I also had NEC 2090UXi because at the time I wanted to have nice A-TW setup + SONY GDM-FW900 for gaming.

There are more A-TW enabled IPS panels but it is called differently on them.
Eizo has 24" panels with GBr-LED backlight like CX240. I see these used in good condition from time to time and if not for already having superior display tech (have actually three HP LP2480zx and two calibration probes for them 🤩 ) I would probably get it.

Anyway, other than official A-TW and Eizo there are some panels which use something similar to A-TW like some Apple laptops had (or still have? not sure) filter that acted somewhat similar to A-TW. It had worse optical properties as far as I can say but did eliminate IPS glow. I would not see it on professional color critical displays necessarily but for gaming display... any day and night :)

There were also some reports from people during Korean 27" overclockable displays craze of some units with PLS panels having similar filter while others did not have it.
I remember I almost pulled the trigger for such monitor but DVI-D DL being phased out cooled off my enthusiasm.

As for how it works on true A-TW panel... it is like using CRT. There is very very slight reduction in contrast from very steep angle and very slight coloration of black but it has to be very steep to notice it. The kind of angle from which even the best IPS panels with least glow are unusable completely. Normally there is no such thing as having to sit in sweet spot angle to such display, it looks the same no matter how I look at it. Good stuff.

Still there are differences between panels and perhaps some people might have got the wrong impression from IPS panels when using one which is not up to the IPS specs regarding IPS glow.
What do I mean by that?
I mean that IPS as LG IPS or Samsung PLS which are also good IPS-like panels, those types have generally pretty low IPS glow.
Other variants include eIPS from LG, which was cost reduced 6-bit version of IPS panels and those generally had worse IPS glow. Mostly found in cheap IPS monitors.
Other type that can be notorious for not very good viewing angles are AUO A-HVA panels. I am not sure for all of them but generally most gaming panels since 2015 use AUO panels because this company was the first to certify their panels for high refresh rates hence all the "gaming IPS" actually used A-HVA panels. At least until other companies like LG started making high refresh rate panels as well.

Panel from AUO I had on Acer XB271HK was objectively speaking the worst IPS panel when it comes to viewing angles that I have ever used. It seemed ok-ish up to some angle at which it showed very bright light that kinda looked like glare in that it seemed to be reflected glare from my behind. If cheap eIPS panels and AUO gaming panels are the only experience people have with IPS tech then I can understand the general "IPS glow is terrible" complaints. On proper IPS panel the glow is there but it is hardly noticeable. I have this LG 27GP950 and it is really non-issue unless I really crank up brightness and use it without ambient light from not optimal position.

LG is planning to produce 27" and 31.5" panels with something they're calling "IPS Black," which sounds an awful lot like A-TW:
I'm guessing these will be targeted at color-critical displays rather than gaming or media displays though.
It is great LG wants to make this tech come back. Hopefully there will be something like 27GP950 but with A-TW and MiniLED, so gaming display with hardware calibration.

Though if they made it in 2022 for ~1000$ I'd get pretty angry at myself 😖
Probably like you are saying, they will put it on color critical displays like they have always done.
In the end imho gaming displays are so damn expensive these days that it would make sense to use it here too. Especially for 31.5". IPS glow already starts to be an issue on 27" from the distances people use monitors, let alone 31.5"

But we will see where it goes.
Future of LG panels looks bright and vibrant it seems ;)
 
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