VA better than IPS for eye comfort and reading?

IdiotInCharge

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The text smearing on VA is very real. Annoying if you care, and overall, VA panels aren't going to have significantly better motion resolution than IPS overall. VA contrast mostly only works for static stuff, and the gamma shifts with viewing angles as well as smearing make them an inferior technology all around, with a few niche cases -- including price -- where they may be attractive.

Really, all LCD technologies suck in one way or another.
 

FOSS-I

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Not by that, but by smearing images and text when scrolling, yes. And this is happening on my LG 32UD59-B (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hehorwkyoi35ky9/ImageBleedScrolling.MOV?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/xhtn37hfl6e7ixc/Slashdot.orgScrolling.MOV?dl=0), while one can live with it, one can not unsee it. Granted this is unusually bad even for VA, had 2 other VA screens that didn't show it to this extent in desktop use, but am yet to see a VA that has no visible and annoying smearing in games...
Those videos are working now. However, I'm not sure what the big deal is about having things smeared when scrolling. Would you want to read text while scrolling it? Would you still get smear and blur when more gently scrolling text at a speed for actual reading?

Here I read of smearing even at high refresh VA: "I had a MSI MAG272 ( Flat VA , 165hz ) but i return it because of text smearing/bleeding while scrolling"

So it's not the refresh rate. He actually says it didn't happen when he changed the refresh rate to 60Hz and put overdrive on fast.
 

kasakka

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The text smearing on VA is very real. Annoying if you care, and overall, VA panels aren't going to have significantly better motion resolution than IPS overall. VA contrast mostly only works for static stuff, and the gamma shifts with viewing angles as well as smearing make them an inferior technology all around, with a few niche cases -- including price -- where they may be attractive.

Really, all LCD technologies suck in one way or another.
And once again, not all VA panels are built equal in these aspects. If your use case is trying to read text while scrolling on a dark background page, VA is probably not the best choice as it does have black smearing in that situation and response time related issues will vary panel by panel. Case in point would be for example the 43" AUO 4K 120-144 Hz VA panels that are by all accounts far worse than say what Samsung uses in their displays. As you said, all LCD techs suck in one way or another and choosing the right display can be difficult with so much variance that is not obvious until you actually use it or read a proper review like TFTCentral's.

A lot of the stuff quoted here does not take into account how old the displays were or if that model has some particular quirks, PWM backlight etc. I have had VA panels that were impossible to calibrate and had horrible black crush and I have had IPS panels with extremely grainy antiglare coating that made them less pleasant. I would expect neither to be an issue in a current gen high end VA or IPS panel.

None of us see the world exactly the same and you can then throw vision related issues (needing glasses, astigmatism, whether their glasses are correct for their current eyesight etc) on top and it's not unreasonable to expect that some might have better experience with panel type X but I think you would need wider testing of multiple IPS vs VA vs TN panel displays to conclusively say that for me panel type X is more comfortable to look at.
 

ors

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Would you want to read text while scrolling it? Would you still get smear and blur when more gently scrolling text at a speed for actual reading?
No, but I would like the monitor to behave correctly and not smear all over the place while scrolling (hard to describe, but really annoying). In games this looks like somebody is dynamically adjusting brightness every time you move the camera. And it does this on any scrolling speed, not just on fast movement. I only kept this screen cause it was relatively cheap for a 4k 32" and I wanted something for office work (programming).
Here I read of smearing even at high refresh VA
That's very bad news actually, was hoping at least high refresh VA will fix this (since you would expect them to use faster VA panels there). Playing with overdrive setting does nothing on mine regarding this, and didn't help with any of the VAs I had (LG 32UD59-B, philips BDM3270QP, aoc Q3277PQU the later 2 are AUO AMVA panels, those are somewhat faster but still show the smearing in games being mostly fine in desktop). One more reason to forget about VA altoghether and move back to IPS (which seem to remain the best all-rounders). Was really hoping OLEDs would take over, but those have other problems and are yet to arrive in monitors at affordable prices...
 
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FOSS-I

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I only kept this screen cause it was relatively cheap for a 4k 32" and I wanted something for office work (programming).
You admit it's a good screen for office work, probably better than comparable IPS units. Much is made of IPS color reproduction, but I really don't care about that, and I don't know why you would either. Take a look at this thread:

There is a huge fiasco going on with the the PG279Q and the number of returns to Asus is pretty staggering.
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sho...php?t=18674039

For an $800 monitor this is just pathetic.
The source of that is here: https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthre...-with-defective-AU-Optronics-panels-*WARNING*

This goes to show how hit and miss are IPS panels. I think the situation is even worse now, as someone here reported. Regarding the quotes I shared, most were about recent (within the past 3 years) releases of IPS, TN, and VA screens. IPS is most likely to cause eye strain, then TN, then VA. If you're doing real work like programming, 5 hours a day, then you want maximum comfort, and your concern with color reproduction comes way down the list compared to the comfort of your eyes and brain.
 

XoR_

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The video doesn't work for me. I'd like to see what you mean. I wonder if it's psychological that I experience more eye fatigue when I take my screen down to 50Hz.
Backlight should work the same in 50Hz and 60Hz modes.
Gamma might change slightly but that should be really minimal in this case. Gamma change is really more noticeable when you overclock something like 60Hz rated panel to 120Hz and even then most people would not notice it.

When you stop sending frames to monitor pixels will keep their state for some time. This time is quite long until there is noticeable difference. If were talking about something like 10Hz refreshes then there might be some flickering caused by pixels loosing their state. 50Hz vs 60Hz should not be any different.
On my HP LP2480zx I added 50Hz mode and even 47,952Hz and to me the image is the same as it is on 60Hz other than in these modes 25fps/23,976fps content look correctly

Another thing which changes with refresh rate is rate of temporal dithering (either done by panel/monitor or GPU) but this should not cause eye-strain.
 

FOSS-I

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Another thing which changes with refresh rate is rate of temporal dithering (either done by panel/monitor or GPU) but this should not cause eye-strain.
At the ledstrain forum they strongly disagree with that assertion. Many are driven mad with strain from dithering noise.

So you are saying dithering noise should be less bothersome with a high refresh rate, such as 75Hz or more? Therefore, a higher refresh screen may benefit not just gamers, but everyone concerned with superior eye and brain comfort?
 

XoR_

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At the ledstrain forum they strongly disagree with that assertion. Many are driven mad with strain from dithering noise.

So you are saying dithering noise should be less bothersome with a high refresh rate, such as 75Hz or more? Therefore, a higher refresh screen may benefit not just gamers, but everyone concerned with superior eye and brain comfort?
I find it funny that people see dithering when I with my superior eye sight can not see it yet people get large 27" monitors with merely 1920x1080 resolution and are not bothered by screen door effect and do not see it as an issue.
For 24" 1920x1200 monitor I stop seeing screen door 80cm away from screen so for 27" 1080p must be much worse....
For eye comfort one get's 4K panels or even 5K, 6K, 8K, etc.

Dithering should not be an issue even on 6-bit 60Hz panels. I do not recommend monitors with 6-bit panels but at the same time I do not believe anyone who sees this dithering, especially to the point it bothers their eyes, to be true. People have noise in eyes and if they want to see dithering noise they can easily do it, especially at low brightness levels.

so yeah, dithering noise is completely imaginary
 

FOSS-I

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One says:

I totally had issues even when reading text on a screen or a webpage or doing anything. Someone just was showing me a video on his crappy phone and it was hurting my eyes. Did you watch the video on eye tracking? https://www.blurbusters.com/faq/oled-motion-blur/ Look at this page and check out the explanation of eye tracking. Every LED/CCFL follows this rule. That is why a higher refresh rate will help. The way I understand it though is it will take to a 1000hz refresh rate to equal a CRT without using tricks like overdrive and black frame insertion, https://www.blurbusters.com/blur-bu...000hz-displays-with-blurfree-sample-and-hold/

Check out the journey to a 1000hz article. LED's are kind of terrible when you look at these rules they follow. Your brain has to compensate for crazy things happening. In regards to your Youtube question my question would be does anyone on here no what Youtube videos are filmed at? Is it 24 frames or something else. This will create a different problem then reading text on a website. Movie Theatres usually run at 48 or 72 refresh rates so movies will work perfect with them because movies are usually filmed at 24fps. They double scan or triple scan the image and I think this makes it flicker free. Last generation CRT's were capable of this running at 100hz or 120hz and doing a double scan trick making them flicker free.
Another says:

I've had 3 XB271HU's and 3 PG279Q's over the last year trying to get a decent panel. I recently got a XB271HU from Costco for $500 and would like to keep it, however it causes me eye strain after 10 minutes of use. I have had this problem with all of the Acer XB271HU's and non of the Asus PG279Q's. I have tried putting the brightness down to 0 and also turning the contrast and saturation down. I also have tried turning down blue gain. Does the Acer use some different type of lighting and is there some way to adjust OSD settings to fix my eye strain. Because for whatever reason I've never had a problem with the Asus. Thank you for any help with this issue.

The problem occurs a lot faster if I'm browning the web. However it still happens around 30 minutes of playing a game or watching a video on the Acer. With the Asus I've played 8 hours straight and have read for hours without a problem.
Back to the first person quoted:

If you mess around on the Blur Busters forum there is a lot of talk about the 240HZ having issues running 60hz content. They are first generation 240hz panels and a lot of people had complaints with them. From what I understand about this particular monitor I bought it's considered a mature 144hz panel and it's new and exclusive to this monitor. A lot of monitors use the same panels in different monitors. So when I put the overdrive feature to max I have no issues. I don't run a blue light filter or anything. This tells me that my main problem is motion blur. I believe everyone on this site needs to consider that to some degree. It's a problem that plagues every CCFL and LED 16MS persistence motion blur on every 60hz LED. This never existed on Plasma and CRT. It creates a problem called eye tracking where you eye believes the image is going to be in a certain spot when the screen refreshes but it's not. Rtings.com explains this good in there Youtube videos. They have a five part series explaining lots of LED problems.

I have suffered from every 99.9 % of every screen I have ever used for 11 - 12 years and every LED light until this. The two OLED screens that didn't affect me The Samsung S2 and my Yotaphone 2 I was told by the head guy at Blur Busters they use crappy LED's to. 80CRI so it really got me thinking that can't be my problem. I bought probably 10 monitors and returned them in the past 3 months till this one. I think I'm on 1 month and half with it now I have had every game system I own hooked up to it and use it on the computer and have no issues. I brought it on vacation with me and was gaming on it as well. I can use the screen unlimited and I have had tons of 8 hour gaming sessions on it. Over drive is a complicated function and most monitors have terrible over drive features. The Blur Busters guy said that a good over drive can make a monitor amazing. It's predicating where the pixels need to be before they would normally get there and what color they need to be if I understand it correctly. This is a big deal when you think about how slow an LED screen is. Most people think when they stare at a screen it's a still image but no it's a screen constantly redrawing itself and LED does a terrible job at this. especially when you see the Rtings youtube videos.
Check that video out as well by the Slow Mo guys to see how different screens work in slow Mo. That LG monitor you bought I thought there was a giant thread on it on Blur Busters and it wasn't considered very good. I could be totally wrong on that. I'm also testing my first LED light bulb but I want to wait a bit before I say anything. I believe it's only a CRI 80 - 85 but flicker free. Early Impressions is it's not giving me any problems but will see. I know that CRI isn't an issue for me it mainly has to do with motion blur or the lack of phoshor on the blue spectrum or the digital nature of LED. The Blur Busters guy told me that CRT is way easier on the eyes then LED. You have to have a high refresh rate and BFI sometimes to get that smooth clarity of CRT. Also he said panel type matters for different people I think my panel of choice is TN but that may not be the case for other people.

https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3624 This is one crazy thread about dither and every other eye problem related to LED.

https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5361
This second one is my questions to the head guy at blur busters. Look at his crazy response to me.
 
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ors

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You admit it's a good screen for office work, probably better than comparable IPS units.
I admit it's usable for office, not better than IPS. If I could have got IPS 4k 32" at reasonable price this screen wouldn't be on my desk right now. I used IPS before for work and had no bigger problems with eye strain than this VA. I just can't go back to the blurry 96 dpi text anymore so am stuck at 4k which currently is overpriced in the IPS space. For me VA has only one thing going for it and that is price...

My problem with VA isn't color reproduction, but off angle wash out and smearing. I do care about those since I also game from time to time, watch movies, etc. and want 1 screen to do all of those reasonably well. VA in my current experience is not capable of doing that. IPS is, but is currently at a premium. I don't care much about refresh rate either am fine with 60Hz for my use case, but am not fine with the smearing the VA produces.
 
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FOSS-I

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Here's another quote from that prolific poster especially regarding dithering: "DLP/Plasma/TN panel dither the harshest. I personally perform best on all those screens."

He also says: "I know the craziness of all this. I'm sure I bought and returned almost 20 monitors in the last six months. Actually a few I got stuck with lol. If you got it from Amazon they will take it back if it doesn't work."

More IPS hate:
This monitor also gives me headaches. I’ve had a lot of different IPS monitors and have never had any problem like this before. The text on the 27GL850 looks blurry to me no matter what settings I try.
The IPS glow is terrible and mind you I’ve never once returned an IPS panel for glow or BLB problems before - I’m not very sensitive to that at all. But I will be returning this one as soon as my PG279Q comes in. I can’t believe the 27GL850 got such glowing reviews.
Apparently that particular model has caused quite some eye strain and headaches in more than a few. Regarding those glowing reviews you see on the sites, you can bet the manufacturers cherry pick the most superlative units, and the testing probably lacks depth and thoroughness.

More anecdotes: https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?t=6351
Hello, I bought AOC CQ32G1 monitor (32", VA, QHD, 144HZ), after a few months of using it I sold it because of strain on my eyes. I bought a smaller monitor: BenQ XL2411P (24", TN, FullHD, 144HZ) and I still experience strain on my eyes when using it. When I switch to my old monitor: Asus VS229HV (21.5", IPS, FullHD, 60HZ) my eyes hurt a lot less. Im thinking of returning the BenQ monitor and maybe buying a 144HZ IPS from Asus (60HZ feels like slow motion now). I dont know if it would help or not. Anybody here has any recommendations on what to do? I wonder if anyone else had this problem before.
 
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Snowdog

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Now this is starting to look like you joined to troll. Welcome to the ignore list.
 

XoR_

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Hello, I bought AOC CQ32G1 monitor (32", VA, QHD, 144HZ), after a few months of using it I sold it because of strain on my eyes. I bought a smaller monitor: BenQ XL2411P (24", TN, FullHD, 144HZ) and I still experience strain on my eyes when using it. When I switch to my old monitor: Asus VS229HV (21.5", IPS, FullHD, 60HZ) my eyes hurt a lot less. Im thinking of returning the BenQ monitor and maybe buying a 144HZ IPS from Asus (60HZ feels like slow motion now). I dont know if it would help or not. Anybody here has any recommendations on what to do? I wonder if anyone else had this problem before.
It seems this guy will eventually find that all monitors cause eye strain.
 

FOSS-I

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51w25M0NtwL._SY88.jpg

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51w25M0NtwL._SY88.jpg

The person who posted this image did so for a review of the Asus VA32UQ 31.5” HDR Monitor 4K (3840 X 2160) FreeSync Eye Care DisplayPort HDMI HDR10.

Is backlight bleed like that even possible on a VA panel?

I had an Asus IPS I returned that looked exactly like that.

Also, this is from ViewSonic:

One of the standout features of VA technology is that it is particularly good at blocking light from the backlight when it’s not needed
https://www.viewsonic.com/library/photography/what-is-an-ips-monitor-panel/

If VA is particularly good at that, then this can explain why it would be more comfortable since the eyes are being exposed to less irritating W-LED light. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that staring 8 hours at an irritating light bulb is going to strain the eyes.

That said, why don't they use full spectrum lights in our monitors? Years ago I bought a cheap full-spectrum LED desk lamp. Surely our eyes, brains, and bodies are worth the extra expense of a superior backlight spectrum?
 
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XoR_

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If VA is particularly good at that, then this can explain why it would be more comfortable since the eyes are being exposed to less irritating W-LED light. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that staring 8 hours at an irritating light bulb is going to strain the eyes.
IPS glow like what is seen in corners in these photos is barely visible at proper viewing distances and I am talking about seeing lighter areas and not intensity which is only due to long exposure times. In reality black is barely any brighter than in center.
You really do not want to have your face directly in monitor because it is extremely unhealthy for your eyes to view screens up close. Eyes did not evolve (or are not designed if you do not believe in evolution 🙃 ) to stare at objects that are close to them and the further you sit from screen the better.
I would recommend 70-80cm at least.
I use my 27" 4K IPS from 80 to 100cm and at these distances IPS is almost not visible.

That said, why don't they use full spectrum lights in our monitors? Years ago I bought a cheap full-spectrum LED desk lamp. Surely our eyes, brains, and bodies are worth the extra expense of a superior backlight spectrum?
Actually best gamut for eye comfort seems to be RGB-LED which definitely is not full spectrum. This is at least my own experience that wide gamut seems nicer to my eyes, and this is completely opposite to what you suggest. It might not be true for other people though.

Full spectrum LED lamps are the same W-LED technology but with different phosphors giving different spectrum for non-blue components and maybe some filter to block excessive blue light.

If you changed backlight spectrum to make it more like daylight then you would need to adapt color filters to have sRGB colorspace and if you did it then you would end up with similar light spectrum just accomplished differently. Also it is not that easy to make color filters especially when they need to be so small and thin and because of that backlight is engineered to already have peaks in required frequencies.
 

FOSS-I

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Why don't you own a VA screen?

See this: "There's nothing out of the ordinary about the glow in this picture, take a picture of any ips monitor and overexpose it like this, and it'll look the same."

What this means is that this is another reason why IPS may be harsh on the eyes. Just because you can't see that glow doesn't mean it isn't there, same as how you might not be able to see flicker, but your brain still perceives it and becomes annoyed by it.
 
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XoR_

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If I had to have eye strain from something I would definitely have it from false stereoscopic effects of VA panels which irritated hell out of me. Still it caused no eye strain, only left bad taste in my mouth.

How can IPS glow cause eye strain? It does not make any sense.
 
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euskalzabe

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This has been an interesting thread to read. I’m one of those users you probably have read on these forums who have had terrible experiences with eyestrain in the past few years (in fact one of the messages you put it in your original post may have very well been written by me). I can tell you that in the past year I have realized that the problem was not primarily with the monitors themselves, but with a medical treatment I have been undergoing for seasonal allergies which has had the unfortunate side effect of making my eyes go on fire because of light sensitivity. It took me 18 months and changing between four monitors to realize that the problem was actually with my specific situation and not the hardware. I have been using a Phillips VA monitor for the past year, although I have had VA panels, IPS panels, and TN panels in the past few years. I’m sorry tell you that you are looking for a specific answer regarding the comfort of each of these technologies, and you will find no such answer, as this thread has probably already suggested to you. Each panel technology, and not just that, but each actual panel type, model and manufacturer intricacies will affect different people in different ways. You will simply have to buy one of the options that seem to be right for you, try it out, and see if you do fine with it or not. Sometimes you don’t realize it until after the 30 day period to return your purchase, and you have to hit eBay.

For many years I have preferred VA panels because the higher contrast made it easier for me to read. However since I started my allergy treatment, due to the light sensitivity issues I’ve been having, reading on my current Phillips VA panel has become more uncomfortable because the great contrast it has has actually become a little too much contrast and reading black text on white background sometimes feels so sharp that it’s like a knife in my eye. It actually hurts and I have to lower screen contrast. I just bought a new IPS panel last week that I will be reviewing soon in these forums, as I usually do when I buy a new monitor. What I can tell you is that I no longer fear that the IPS will be in any way more hurtful to my eyes than the VA panel. As long as I have my antihistaminic eyedrops, neither panel makes a big difference in my reading comfort. A.k.a., the discomfort comes from elsewhere, not from the panel technology. This may be your physical condition, a mismatch between the panel contrast and the room lighting, or even being incorrectly positioned towards a window (never look towards one, always have it on the side). These are all factors that I now take much more into account than the panel technology itself.

I hope this helps.
 

FOSS-I

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u is that I no longer fear that the IPS will be in any way more hurtful to my eyes than the VA panel. As long as I have my antihistaminic eyedrops, neither panel makes a big difference in my reading comfort. A.k.a., the discomfort comes from elsewhere, not from the pa
This has been an interesting thread to read. I’m one of those users you probably have read on these forums who have had terrible experiences with eyestrain in the past few years (in fact one of the messages you put it in your original post may have very well been written by me). I can tell you that in the past year I have realized that the problem was not primarily with the monitors themselves, but with a medical treatment I have been undergoing for seasonal allergies which has had the unfortunate side effect of making my eyes go on fire because of light sensitivity. It took me 18 months and changing between four monitors to realize that the problem was actually with my specific situation and not the hardware. I have been using a Phillips VA monitor for the past year, although I have had VA panels, IPS panels, and TN panels in the past few years. I’m sorry tell you that you are looking for a specific answer regarding the comfort of each of these technologies, and you will find no such answer, as this thread has probably already suggested to you. Each panel technology, and not just that, but each actual panel type, model and manufacturer intricacies will affect different people in different ways. You will simply have to buy one of the options that seem to be right for you, try it out, and see if you do fine with it or not. Sometimes you don’t realize it until after the 30 day period to return your purchase, and you have to hit eBay.

For many years I have preferred VA panels because the higher contrast made it easier for me to read. However since I started my allergy treatment, due to the light sensitivity issues I’ve been having, reading on my current Phillips VA panel has become more uncomfortable because the great contrast it has has actually become a little too much contrast and reading black text on white background sometimes feels so sharp that it’s like a knife in my eye. It actually hurts and I have to lower screen contrast. I just bought a new IPS panel last week that I will be reviewing soon in these forums, as I usually do when I buy a new monitor. What I can tell you is that I no longer fear that the IPS will be in any way more hurtful to my eyes than the VA panel. As long as I have my antihistaminic eyedrops, neither panel makes a big difference in my reading comfort. A.k.a., the discomfort comes from elsewhere, not from the panel technology. This may be your physical condition, a mismatch between the panel contrast and the room lighting, or even being incorrectly positioned towards a window (never look towards one, always have it on the side). These are all factors that I now take much more into account than the panel technology itself.

I hope this helps.
But your LG was causing you a lot of strain while the VA wasn't. If black is too black and sharp on the VA, why not adjust your settings to make it grey? Agreed lifestyle factors are most important. When I don't get enough sleep my eyes get strained easily.

As well, if you're running your screen at low brightness, meaning low "brightness" and low "contrast" in your monitor controls, I doubt you're going to find black on white even on a high-contrast VA screen like a razor through the eyes. Of course you can try something like this: https://www.colorcombos.com/colors/666666

This is a somewhat dark shade of grey that has much less contrast versus black on white. It shouldn't be too difficult to figure out how to modify default font settings across your OS and browser.

Do let us know how the IPS screen works out. I don't like buying stuff and having to return it, and Amazon has been so good to me that I try to uphold my end of the relationship by keeping just about everything I order, but I have a VA screen on its way just because I need to know how it compares against my current IPS screens. If it's not any better I'll send it back in mint condition.

I think in my own case my issues as I say are mainly physical in that I tend to get engrossed in computer work and sleep becomes impacted. The eye-brain system is very sophisticated and sensitive to sleep quality. Saying that, I'm still interested in the healthiest visual experience because I use my screens for work and that work is important to me. I'm definitely not interested in "color accuracy" and how well the screen performs in games.

I've also heard that the computer itself can be even more influential than the monitor in terms of causing strain. I'm right now running off integrated Intel graphics, and I tend to think that's not ideal.

Regarding ambient light, I used to study in a very bright bedroom using a direct desk light, overhead lighting, and a nearby lamp with 3 settings, and I'd usually use the highest wattage. This was a very bright environment that definitely facilitated my ability to function at a higher level. Most people probably are in overly dark environments where the LCD is the brightest thing in the room. You can get away with that if you tone down the brightness and contrast of the screen, but it's probably still more likely to irritate the eyes than if you place an incandescent and shaded lamp a few feet away.
 
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FOSS-I

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I just did a quick search:

Static Contrast ratio Over 15,000:1

That's for a typical CRT, so the 3000:1 contrast of a typical VA shouldn't be problematic. It should be an improvement over the 1000:1 of IPS and TN screens.

The 15,000:1 is from Wikipedia, and now I read:

"maybe 50,000:1 might be quality that is just as good as CRT."

I suspect this is why I vastly prefer my low haze IPS versus the matte one. The difference is more pronounced when the matte one is set to Limited mode. The matte screen is tolerable in Full RGB mode, but the low haze screen relaxes my eyes immediately every time I move from the matte to the low haze.

I'm looking to buy the next release HP produces with a low haze treatment. Right now they're impossible to get where I am and the low haze 25f hasn't been updated in a quite a while. I'll see how the VA is that I have arriving soon, but I tend to believe the best for me is a low haze screen irrespective of panel type. Just getting rid of the matte finish does wonders.

Edit: Cranking up the contrast on the matte unit has helped significantly. The low haze coating seems to allow better contrast. Therefore I'm curious to see how I like the VA unit I have coming in the mail. However, I still think the low haze unit looks better and is kinder on the eyes.
 
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XoR_

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CRT contrast ratio is hit or miss and depends on CRT model and displayed image.
Very dark games look great and haloing around bright objects is not that bad but the more bright things there are on screen the less and less black look like black to the point that black objects on white background will look completely washed out. Black text on white background have very very low contrast ratio on CRT. So low that we are not even talking 100:1 but much lower. Yet it is perfectly readable.

Anyway if you are interested in using CRT for increased eye comfort over LCD then be my guest 🤣

Edit: Cranking up the contrast on the matte unit has helped significantly. The low haze coating seems to allow better contrast. Therefore I'm curious to see how I like the VA unit I have coming in the mail. However, I still think the low haze unit looks better and is kinder on the eyes.
This AG coating and contrast relation that some people claim is bullshit.

People just like shiny things and there is a reason for that https://www.fastcompany.com/3024766/an-evolutionary-theory-for-why-you-love-glossy-things

Generally contrast ratio setting on LCD should not be even touched and imho it should not be even there to begin with to prevent idiots from changing it. Contrast ratio should also not come up in discussions about eye comfort let alone making it most important parameter. I would loose faith in humanity if at this point I had any left...
 

kasakka

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I blame crappy CRTs in my youth for needing pretty strong prescription eyeglasses until I had laser surgery some years back. You can talk all you want about CRT motion clarity or contrast ratio but the fact is those things had plenty of geometry and focus issues. I sent back multiple higher end Samsung CRTs because you could not get the whole screen to be properly focused, something you will not experience even on the cheapest LCD on the market. CRT flickering can also cause headaches etc.
 

FOSS-I

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I blame crappy CRTs in my youth for needing pretty strong prescription eyeglasses until I had laser surgery some years back. You can talk all you want about CRT motion clarity or contrast ratio but the fact is those things had plenty of geometry and focus issues. I sent back multiple higher end Samsung CRTs because you could not get the whole screen to be properly focused, something you will not experience even on the cheapest LCD on the market. CRT flickering can also cause headaches etc.
I maintained perfect vision in spite of plenty of CRT usage. How? Well, I used a low resolution, high refresh rate, and sat 3 feet from the screen. There were no focus issues on my high-end Trinitron.

I'm not vouching for returning to a CRT for eye comfort. I was just making the comparison when the member cited too much contrast on his VA screen that was searing his eyes like a razor.

Personally, I'm really happy on my 25er. It's not perfect. I still need to be vigilant about my own habits and how I'm using it, but I doubt there is anything better, and yes, without any doubt, I prefer glossy and low haze finishes. Matte doesn't satisfy me and I feel more relaxed in my visual system on a low haze unit.
 

XoR_

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Too much contrast hurting eyes sound like nonsense. Really the only thing that hurt people eyes is sitting too close. 3 feet (whatever kind of unholy measuring unit it is ; ) ) seems about right and what I use.

CRT gave me strange effect where I would see kind of distortion moving upward, kinda like warm air makes in winter. Also CRT make me feel in very specific way which reminds me of the past as then I used CRT all the time. It is hard to describe but all this rolling strobing is bound to produce some strange feelings in my eyes. Otherwise no issues with sight. Though I noticed my sight improved when I ditched CRT's so I would not call them most healthy tech out there XD
 

FOSS-I

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Generally contrast ratio setting on LCD should not be even touched and imho it should not be even there to begin with to prevent idiots from changing it. Contrast ratio should also not come up in discussions about eye comfort let alone making it most important parameter. I would loose faith in humanity if at this point I had any left...
In a dark environment, I have to lower the contrast because the brightness at 0 is still too bright. You can say I should be using a light, but I like the dark environment, and I adjust the screen to suit it. Such as in the evenings. In daytime, like now, I raise the contrast level and keep the brightness at 0. In my experience this works well.

What am I doing wrong?
 

Comixbooks

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I blame crappy CRTs in my youth for needing pretty strong prescription eyeglasses until I had laser surgery some years back. You can talk all you want about CRT motion clarity or contrast ratio but the fact is those things had plenty of geometry and focus issues. I sent back multiple higher end Samsung CRTs because you could not get the whole screen to be properly focused, something you will not experience even on the cheapest LCD on the market. CRT flickering can also cause headaches etc.

Sending back a CRTs is no easy task I had like 3 or 4 in the early 90s mainly Dell's LCDs are easier to get rid of.
 

XoR_

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HP 25er at 0% brightness apparently have 40 cd/m2
Should be low enough really
I use my text monitor usually at 60 cd/m2 and can go as low as 33 cd/m2 but I find it too dark to be comfortable 🙂
 

FOSS-I

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HP 25er at 0% brightness apparently have 40 cd/m2
Should be low enough really
I use my text monitor usually at 60 cd/m2 and can go as low as 33 cd/m2 but I find it too dark to be comfortable 🙂
Where do you find minimum brightness levels and other interesting specs like that?
 

FOSS-I

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HP 25er at 0% brightness apparently have 40 cd/m2
Should be low enough really
I use my text monitor usually at 60 cd/m2 and can go as low as 33 cd/m2 but I find it too dark to be comfortable 🙂
Where do you find minimum brightness levels and other interesting specs like that?
 

XoR_

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Where do you find minimum brightness levels and other interesting specs like that?
From reviews
Though I just did actual measurements using i1 Display Pro and I use Acer monitor at 75cd/m2 and at 0% it has 37cd/m2
I fiddled with RGB settings so maybe that is the cause.

For most accurate results you good need calibration probe, obviously. This i1 Display Pro is one of the best.
I would hover not recommend getting in to whole topic of calibration unless you have monitor that can actually be calibrated in hardware. Otherwise it is only train of issues and disappointment 🤨
I didn't even measure this Acer before, saw no point in it 🙃
 

Lordken

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For eye comfort one get's 4K panels or even 5K, 6K, 8K, etc.
....
People have noise in eyes and if they want to see dithering noise they can easily do it, especially at low brightness levels.
I'm curious what do you mean by noise in eyes?

Do you mean 4K also at 27"? Isnt it too small font and hence more eye strain less comfort? Not that my 1070Ti would be much good for 4k.


Its interesting thread as last winter I had really weird experience with Samsung C27HG70 (1440 144hz curved VA) and I suspected curved screen was culprit.
Was looking after monitor upgrade, wanted more hertz (who doesnt) and eventually higher resolution as my old (HP Z24i IPS 60Hz 1920x1200 good old 16:10) and also wanted VA for higher contrast vs IPS (although there is lots of hate for VA for gaming monitors). Samsung had very good reviews (text readability is mentioned as slightly worse) and when I accidentally found <300eur black friday deal so I bit bullet despite I considered curved screen as gimmick & nonsense but figured I may get used to it (I didnt read any hate on curved screen causing problems, and friend got curved VA and he was happy).
However when I got it two things happend. First I really started to be irritated by curve, it was worst when you had any window not in full screen and you could see that the lines were not straight (as they are meant to be on flat screen), it was bothering me in desktop but not much in games.
But worse problem was that I started to get headache and generally feeling unwell, first i thought it was some flu or something (early covid :) ) as it was winter and rainy weather , but little bit later i realized it must be the monitor. So I put it away and used Z24i again and put it up for local "ebay" for sale. Few weeks later I put it back on my desk, I wanted to test if i can get used to it (while waiting for any buyer). After ~month with Samsung I think I was slowly adapting to it but it was nowhere near perfect. So once finally got buyer I sold it though had a little bit of dilemma if to let it go, it was very good monitor for that money...

Weird thing is, apart of the irritating curve, i couldnt pin point what was messing with my eyes, I couldnt tell that i had trouble reading text etc. Though I suspect it could be my brain, because I remember that, especially from beginning, when I looked away from Samsung (after focused use) to some other screen, for example my phone, the phone screen looked like it was bend/curved outwards. It was like brain tried to "fix" inward curve of C27HG70 into flatness so when i looked at real flat screen the brain's "AI algorithm" caused flat screen to curve outwards. Or when I swapped samsung back for Z24i, it looked like CRT (screen curved outwards) That was pretty weird, this effect worked only on screens and was temporary, but wall/table/book/floor everything else was ok, and no I dont do drugs :)
Btw I have astigmatism, my eyeglasses have cylinders, but not sure if that had any impact (and i played with and without eyeglasses when testing)

I have now new 4K TV which is flat VA (Panasonic 58GX820) and i have no issues with it - but except of panel type everything is different, size, resolution, viewing distance, not reading desktop text/browsing on it etc. But as Samsung made me sick also in games (and watching TV is similar i would say) I guess VA itself wasnt the problem, but this lousy curve was.


Now after half year I'm again looking into monitors because going from that resolution back to 24" 1920x1200 hurts, especially in desktop you loose so much space. Oh and I also miss the HDR :(
The problem is, that I'm stuck. I would want VA (contrast) but it looks like every single VA screen is curved nowadays which is now a nogo And I cant really rule out VA itself being issue, so not sure if I would want to risk it again.
So most likely I'm stuck with IPS, I've spent days scouring NCX and other reviews but, like always, its like impossible task to find good monitor (good contrast among IPS, HDR [good DCI P3 coverage], freesync, optionally BFI) for good price. C27HG70 for that price with its parameters was a total steal :(
 

Pavnit

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That is very strange since the u2715h doesn't use PWM for backlight dimming, so should be good for eye strain. Regarding seeing lines better on VA than IPS I again have the opposite experience. When viewed off angle VA panels wash out more, so on a big screen edges will be harder to read on VA vs IPS. IPS glow is only a problem if you want to use dark themes at night, in a (well) lit room it's not a problem though. Currently I'm using VA screens only (a 32" 4k lg and a 32" 1440p aoc) since IPS I deem overpriced in 32" screens currently, but for general use I want to move to a 32" 4k IPS as soon as prices become affordable since the lg VA has horrendous smearing even in the browser, not to mention games...

Had a dell u2311h before, that one uses PWM for dimming and is IPS and still had no eye fatigue problems with it at all. Recently had to change over to dark theme on my 32" 4k lg since my eyes were shot (felt like staring into the sun although I always have brightness close to minimal), no problems since though, granted due to the virus lock down I had been using the screen even more than before...

Long story short, I don't really think there is a sure way of knowing how a panel will be for eye strain, other than the obvious: Hz is not king like on CRT anymore for eye strain (but you really want 60 minimum), avoid PWM screens, adjust brightness to your needs, make sure you have as little glare into the monitor as possible from external light sources, if reading all day on it prioritize high PPI.
Hi can u please suggest which monitor should I go for as I do extensive reading.. Thank you.
 

Pavnit

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Most people have no flipping idea what causes their issues, and probably only tried one of each type.

Many things that can influence eye fatigue that have nothing to do with panel type:

Brightness, Color temperature, PWM. - backlight related items.

Screen coating (glare reduction of various strengths). Early IPS monitors (10+ years ago) had particularly grainy coatings that annoyed a lot of people. People may still be remember their one IPS panel from a decade ago, when they aren't actually like this today.

Next you might have pixel structure anomalies, non standard sub-pixels, can make pixels fuzzy, but this is again more rare today.

When you get to the actual LCD types, I have owned them all, and I only had problem with VA, and I understand exactly what caused my problem with VA.

VA has the strongest horizontal contrast shift of any LCD panel type. People say viewing angles don't matter if you sit straight behind the monitor, but that isn't true.

If you sit typically close to a VA monitor, the horizontal viewing angle weakness is strong enough, that each eye will be a different angle to the screen, that different angle means each eye sees a different brightness. This can create weird edge artifacts and false 3D effect that shifts with small changes in head position. Most people aren't sensitive to this, but I am, so VA will give me headaches because of this, and I can't use them for very long. Again this doesn't seem to bother most poeple.

I don't know of any unique issues IPS/TN technology that would cause eye strain, its mostly backlight/coating related, and that can impact any panel type.
So which monitor should one go about for reading text??
 

Snowdog

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So which monitor should one go about for reading text??
Start cheap? Get a basic TN screen and see how that treats you.

Basically no one can predict how any particular monitor will work for you, so you will just have to try them and see for yourself.

But I think the first mistake is letting threads like this get into your head, and convince you there might be a problem.

Placebo effect is probably a lot more powerful than the differences between monitor technologies.
 

euskalzabe

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Basically no one can predict how any particular monitor will work for you, so you will just have to try them and see for yourself.
But I think the first mistake is letting threads like this get into your head, and convince you there might be a problem.
I fully agree. The only recommendation is that you should go for a matte panel, not a glossy one. Other than that, how a monitor will affect you is super subjective. I wouldn't think too much about IPS vs VA vs TN for reading. Try to go to a store and check out a few screens, see which you like better. Just because someone in a forum says XYZ is better, that doesn't mean it'll be better for you.
 

IdiotInCharge

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I fully agree. The only recommendation is that you should go for a matte panel, not a glossy one.
Semi-glossy :).

Matte can look grainy, and the coating can mess with your ability to focus on details like text. LG's latest panels / coatings have been pretty good in this regard.
 
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sirmonkey1985

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I fully agree. The only recommendation is that you should go for a matte panel, not a glossy one. Other than that, how a monitor will affect you is super subjective. I wouldn't think too much about IPS vs VA vs TN for reading. Try to go to a store and check out a few screens, see which you like better. Just because someone in a forum says XYZ is better, that doesn't mean it'll be better for you.
100% agree. no ones brain/eyes are exactly the same to some one elses and what bothers them might not bother you or some one else.
 

FOSS-I

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I have two HP IPS screens, one matte and one low haze. The low haze model definitely is easier on the eyes. I notice immediate relaxation of the visual system going from the matte to the low haze screen. Another point that makes a big difference especially with matte screens is ensuring the RGB is set to FULL, not limited. My matte screen on limited is pretty bad.

Regarding IPS and VA, see these images:
https://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/tv/lg/sk9000/sk9000-pixels-large.jpg
https://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/tv/sony/x900f/x900f-pixels-large.jpg

The first one is IPS. I believe the pixel structure of VA usually is easier on the eyes than IPS. However, someone said:

Not all IPS panels have angled pixels. Doesn't mean you aren't right, but I can't use IPS panels regardless of whether the pixels are at an angle or veritcal.
Trying to tell before purchasing which IPS have angled pixels may be difficult. Regardless, I think the "IPS Glow" infamous to IPS displays partly explains why they are more aggressive on the eyes. Yes, the viewing angles are the best, but as with many things in life, you tend to give up something to get something.

IPS screens are worse at blocking the backlight, and except for professional models tend to employ FRC dithering.
 
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Pavnit

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Start cheap? Get a basic TN screen and see how that treats you.

Basically no one can predict how any particular monitor will work for you, so you will just have to try them and see for yourself.

But I think the first mistake is letting threads like this get into your head, and convince you there might be a problem.

Placebo effect is probably a lot more powerful than the differences between monitor technologies.
Nope I happens to face this eyes strain for a long time.. I worked out all possible ways such as diets ,sleep etc none worked... Thanks to the thread so that we can discuss the issues in details..
 
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