US Slips Down the Ranks of Global Competitiveness

[MasonD]

The only thing the stimulus worked to do was to postpone the inevitable/kick the can down the road. The stimulus was exactly a quick fix, a quick temporary fix, nothing more. Using my analogy from earlier, it injected more drugs into the patient so they wouldn't die from withdrawals from stopping cold turkey. Yes, it did actually help some, but not in the long term. I know some can argue against this but some sapiens can debate anything (the moon landing).

You can't spend your way out of debt. It's that simple. You can cut spending billions/trillions on wars and defense budgets but that's kind of hard when America is a war machine but that's besides the point. The point is sooner or later we'll all be able to stop arguing over the current state of the economy. We'll all be in the phase of pointing fingers and blaming everyone else for causing it's death.

Please, what would you have rather seen done to reverse the recession?

Pay attention to prevent it? Proactive is better than reactive, no? Or since we couldn't manage that actually cutting spending instead of just moving money around which simplistically just increases the overall debt without actually cutting almost any meaningful spending. Oh wait, we're talking about the US government here, shit, the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world, just print more money and spend it! That should work!

 

[zero1945]

What? ... a recession is multiple quarters of low growth ... a low interest rate increases economic activity (growth) while a higher rate reduces economic activity ... a higher interest rate from the Fed would kill growth in this country or even cause a depression ... besides which, a higher rate would savage everyone else's economies (including our own) ... other countries have to charge higher rates to finance their debt since no one wants to borrow from them at lower rates ... we have extraordinarily low rates on our debt because people will buy our debt without needing extra interest ... if we raised the rates on bonds arbitrarily we would be giving money away for no reason ... I am not sure how that makes any sense either

Low interest rates do not stimulate the economy. Falling interest rates (which are different than constantly low interest rates) are said to stimulate the economy. We are going through a period of interest rates so low that it is basically unprecedented in America history, yet the economy is still doing very poorly.

Here are the things low interest rates do off the top of my head.
1) Allow people/companies to kick the can down the road on bad debts. The bad debts never get written off and the economy stagnates or malinvestments. Chesapeake Energy Corporation is a great example of this. This company would be out of business if it weren't for yield chasing investors that allow it to refinance it's huge debt load. That is the Fed's ZIRP policy at work. CHK is allowed to exist and artificially pushes down the price of Nat Gas.
2) Allows the government to deficit spend because the politicians think low rates will exist forever.
3) Destroys capital formation by savers. Instead of punishing savers with low interest rates, we should be raising them to build a capital base. Investment should come from capital, not debt.
4) Forcing people on fixed incomes (typically older folks) to remain in the work-force because their assets don't generate sufficient cash flow to live on. This takes jobs from younger people. If you look at the last jobs report (which was pretty horrendous once you actually ignore the headline and read it) you'll see the labor force participation rate is dropping. Look at some more data and you'll see that older people are actually staying in the workforce longer, while younger people are dropping out of the labor force.
5) Exacerbating the pension crisis this country will face when boomers start to retire in greater numbers. Pensions rely on a yearly return of about 8% that can't be met over the long run with these interest rates. Unless Ben Bernanke keeps printing trillions more to prop up the stock market.

 

[zero1945]

"Please, what would you have rather seen done to reverse the recession?"

It's impossible to reverse a recession. We as a country need to realize that the government or Federal Reserve cannot reverse of prevent a recession. Why was neither organization been able to prevent the dozens (?) of other recessions this country has had? They can't.

What we are doing now is pulling forward demand from the future by deficit spending.

 

[Killahurtz]

surely understand what YOU are typing Mr.K6 , and it is a load , young kool-aid driven load

 

[Killahurtz]

"I don't think you understand what you are typing..."...hahaha...typical libby retort , only a libby understands everything...when were you going to throw down the "critical thinking" pablum?

 

[Daggah]

You can't spend your way out of debt. It's that simple. You can cut spending billions/trillions on wars and defense budgets but that's kind of hard when America is a war machine but that's besides the point. The point is sooner or later we'll all be able to stop arguing over the current state of the economy. We'll all be in the phase of pointing fingers and blaming everyone else for causing it's death.

You don't spend your way out of debt. You spend your way out of a downtrodden economy, and then increase revenue when things get better. Keynesian economics says that right now we shouldn't worry about the debt as much as we should worry about stimulating the economy and getting ourselves back on our feet. This pattern was working until Reagan and Bush (both of 'em) came and fucked everything up.

 

[Daggah]

surely understand what YOU are typing Mr.K6 , and it is a load , young kool-aid driven load

It's incredibly obvious that you copied/pasted your earlier post from some other site. I guess we can add intellectual dishonesty to your already growing list of character flaws.

 

[Daggah]

The Stimulus didn’t create new jobs. Whether the government has to borrow or impose new taxes or print up money, the money the government gave away wasn’t free. The money had to come from someplace.

For all the concern about Democrats helping the poor, they were merely in it to help themselves. The Stimulus was simply a massive partisan wealth transfer -- the largest single transfer in American history.

The last time income inequality in America was this high, we called it the Great Depression. We could use a bit of wealth transfer at this point.

 

[MasonD]

Picture....snip
The last time income inequality in America was this high, we called it the Great Depression. We could use a bit of wealth transfer at this point.

Government reported jobs...meh (they skew everything!)! As to your second point...YES!!! I agree, the rich people have an unfair advantage at gaining and attaining wealth. On top of that a lobbyist is the best investment one can make, I can't afford one, can anyone else?
I'm fucking angry!

 

[MasonD]

gaining and retaining*

 

[Killahurtz]

It's incredibly obvious that you copied/pasted your earlier post from some other site. I guess we can add intellectual dishonesty to your already growing list of character flaws.

the facts in it are scarry for a libby are they not?...dang pesky facts

 

[Daggah]

the facts in it are scarry for a libby are they not?...dang pesky facts

You mean like the pesky fact that prior to the stimulus package, we were losing 800,000 jobs a month? The pesky fact that after the stimulus package, that number was slowly but surely turned around?

You realize that you're not doing your side any favors with your derpiness, right?

 

[Retronym]

The last time income inequality in America was this high, we called it the Great Depression. We could use a bit of wealth transfer at this point.

Whats so funny is that the wealth transfer only serves to give insiders and planners more power to give themselves more power. Yo dawg.

 

[sleepeeg3]

Almost all of the nations above us on the list are exponentially more socialist than the US. I'm afraid there is more to the decline than just that.

Wrong. The US has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world. We are one of the most socialist countries in the world.

P.S. Where is Russia on this list?

 

[Daggah]

Wrong. The US has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world. We are one of the most socialist countries in the world.

Not if you actually consider effective tax rates - corporations have scores of loopholes and tax shelters to reduce their tax burden.

And if you truly believe that we're one of the most socialist countries in the world, I think you need to go back and read up on what socialism actually is.

 

[Daggah]

In 2010 taxes collected by federal, state and municipal governments amounted to 24.8% of GDP. The only two industrialized economies that raised less tax revenue as a percent of GDP were Chile and Mexico.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_States

 

[Buxaroo]

Wrong. The US has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world. We are one of the most socialist countries in the world.

P.S. Where is Russia on this list?

Tax rates don't mean a fucking thing.

Evidence: http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/ge-filed-57000-page-tax-return-paid-no-taxes-14-billion-profits_609137.html

General Electric, one of the largest corporations in America, filed a whopping 57,000-page federal tax return earlier this year but didn't pay taxes on $14 billion in profits.

Rates don't mean shit in this country where rich people's unions (that's what lawyers and lobbyists are, rich people's form of a union, that's exactly what they are and you can't say anything to counter that) can bend and twist everything they want to meet their ends.

America: where rich people can form unions, but middle class can go fuck themselves.

 

[Phoenix333]

As usual, nothing but a bunch of bickering. It amazes me how much energy people are willing to invest in arguing on a message board. If these problems are so important to all of you, why not do something productive about it? Nobody's going to change their minds on any of this here.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

Wrong. The US has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world. We are one of the most socialist countries in the world.

P.S. Where is Russia on this list?

That doesn't socialism make.

 

[auspexd]

Rates don't mean shit in this country where rich people's unions (that's what lawyers and lobbyists are, rich people's form of a union, that's exactly what they are and you can't say anything to counter that) can bend and twist everything they want to meet their ends.

America: where rich people can form unions, but middle class can go fuck themselves.

And this is news? If you dislike being exploited so much then why not try and join the rich people's union. Come to the dark side: We have cookies. Is there anything better than having your tax attorney tell you how much money you are getting back every year compared to the average schmo who is stuck using self-filing or descending into the 8th circle of hell that is h&r block? I think not.

 

[kbrickley]

And this is news? If you dislike being exploited so much then why not try and join the rich people's union. Come to the dark side: We have cookies. Is there anything better than having your tax attorney tell you how much money you are getting back every year compared to the average schmo who is stuck using self-filing or descending into the 8th circle of hell that is h&r block? I think not.

I think H&R Block is more of 4th circle (Greed) or 9th circle (Treachery) ... but they could be 8th Circle (Fraud) as well

 

[Killahurtz]

You mean like the pesky fact that prior to the stimulus package, we were losing 800,000 jobs a month? The pesky fact that after the stimulus package, that number was slowly but surely turned around?

You realize that you're not doing your side any favors with your derpiness, right?

haha...derpiness...hmmm, not a word , but in the "urban dictionary" , puts it right there with the rest of the bafoonery known as liberalism , are you sure that you are helping "your side" ? , it could sure use some help

you need to read up on your buddy Slick Willy's actions with the housing market that lead to those job losses , but then again libbies have been taught since birth not question their kings and queens

 

[DrDoug]

haha...derpiness...hmmm, not a word , but in the "urban dictionary" , puts it right there with the rest of the bafoonery known as liberalism , are you sure that you are helping "your side" ? , it could sure use some help

you need to read up on your buddy Slick Willy's actions with the housing market that lead to those job losses , but then again libbies have been taught since birth not question their kings and queens

Don't you have anything more than ad hominem attacks against others to 'support' your positions? Most people drop the playground taunts and insults when they leave elementary school.

It's called growing up.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

haha...derpiness...hmmm, not a word , but in the "urban dictionary" , puts it right there with the rest of the bafoonery known as liberalism , are you sure that you are helping "your side" ? , it could sure use some help

you need to read up on your buddy Slick Willy's actions with the housing market that lead to those job losses , but then again libbies have been taught since birth not question their kings and queens

I'm not sure you're on the upside in a battle of grammar.

I'm not sure why you're all still going at it, either.

 

[Killahurtz]

Don't you have anything more than ad hominem attacks against others to 'support' your positions? Most people drop the playground taunts and insults when they leave elementary school.

It's called growing up.

hahaha...I notice that you didn't include your buddy and his "as hominem's"...kinda makes your point moot...

 

[Killahurtz]

Don't you have anything more than ad hominem attacks against others to 'support' your positions? Most people drop the playground taunts and insults when they leave elementary school.

It's called growing up.

hahaha...I notice that you didn't include your buddy and his "ad hominem's"...kinda makes your point moot...

 

[Aaron11]

I can't say I'm surprised. We can credit this to people like Obama who tell us that we can have everything without having to do anything.

 

[DrDoug]

hahaha...I notice that you didn't include your buddy and his "ad hominem's"...kinda makes your point moot...

Come on back with something substantial and you'll be taken seriously. Dismiss me all you want, it doesn't change the fact that you've got nothing but playground taunts to back your 'positions'. BTW, I'm not a 'libby" or a conservative, I'm one of those people in the middle that both sides hate. I like reading people who argue facts, however they see them, and you've brought little more than insults to this conversation. Which is something I notice you do quite often in other threads here.

While opinions are like assholes, that's doesn't mean you have to be one.

 

[Daggah]

hahaha...I notice that you didn't include your buddy and his "as hominem's"...kinda makes your point moot...

Doesn't look like you understand what an ad hominem is. I have never once in this thread said anything like "you're stupid, and therefore your argument is wrong." You haven't even given me the opportunity because you don't even have an argument. You just throw around insults and generally act like a petulant child (while ironically accusing everyone who disagrees with you of doing the same) while completely ignoring and evading any actual points or facts thrown at you. You are literally everything that's wrong with the political atmosphere in America come every election season - an anti-intellectual idiot drooling over media catchphrases like "Slick Willie" while completely ignoring any kind of actual reality-based argument.

 

[Phoenix333]

Doesn't look like you understand what an ad hominem is. I have never once in this thread said anything like "you're stupid
*snip*

You are... an anti-intellectual idiot.

I'm not taking sides in this, but... you do realize you just did exactly what you said you didn't do? Stay classy, people.

 

[Daggah]

I'm not taking sides in this, but... you do realize you just did exactly what you said you didn't do? Stay classy, people.

No, I didn't say he was wrong because he was an idiot. "Ad hominem" is an accusation that's often wrongfully thrown around and so rarely understood.

 

[p3sty]

We cant compete when the 1% ships all our jobs overseas.

 

[Killahurtz]

Doesn't look like you understand what an ad hominem is. I have never once in this thread said anything like "you're stupid, and therefore your argument is wrong." You haven't even given me the opportunity because you don't even have an argument. You just throw around insults and generally act like a petulant child (while ironically accusing everyone who disagrees with you of doing the same) while completely ignoring and evading any actual points or facts thrown at you. You are literally everything that's wrong with the political atmosphere in America come every election season - an anti-intellectual idiot drooling over media catchphrases like "Slick Willie" while completely ignoring any kind of actual reality-based argument.

from one of your posts: hmmm

"If you really believe that was the problem, then you're just another ignorant Republican not bothering to do his research."

case dismissed ...one more libby steps on his johnson

 

[Killahurtz]

Doesn't look like you understand what an ad hominem is. I have never once in this thread said anything like "you're stupid, and therefore your argument is wrong." You haven't even given me the opportunity because you don't even have an argument. You just throw around insults and generally act like a petulant child (while ironically accusing everyone who disagrees with you of doing the same) while completely ignoring and evading any actual points or facts thrown at you. You are literally everything that's wrong with the political atmosphere in America come every election season - an anti-intellectual idiot drooling over media catchphrases like "Slick Willie" while completely ignoring any kind of actual reality-based argument.

from one of your posts: hmmm

"...just another ignorant Republican..."

case dismissed ...one more libby steps on his johnson

 

[Killahurtz]

Doesn't look like you understand what an ad hominem is. I have never once in this thread said anything like "you're stupid, and therefore your argument is wrong." You haven't even given me the opportunity because you don't even have an argument. You just throw around insults and generally act like a petulant child (while ironically accusing everyone who disagrees with you of doing the same) while completely ignoring and evading any actual points or facts thrown at you. You are literally everything that's wrong with the political atmosphere in America come every election season - an anti-intellectual idiot drooling over media catchphrases like "Slick Willie" while completely ignoring any kind of actual reality-based argument.

from one of your posts: hmmm

"...just another ignorant Republican..."

case dismissed ...one more libby steps on his johnson

oh , by the way , your libby party's cloward-piven manifesto is "everything that's wrong with the political atmosphere in America come every election"

 

[MasonD]

Wait, so this guy stepped on his johnson three times!

 

[Daggah]

from one of your posts: hmmm

"If you really believe that was the problem, then you're just another ignorant Republican not bothering to do his research."

case dismissed ...one more libby steps on his johnson

So what? I've also raised counterpoints to your assertions and you fail to respond to them. All you sit there and do is try to point your finger at everyone else. Well, when you do, four more point back at you.

 

[Phoenix333]

No, I didn't say he was wrong because he was an idiot. "Ad hominem" is an accusation that's often wrongfully thrown around and so rarely understood.

ad ho·mi·nem
adjective
1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.

I was referring to the fact that you said you didn't call him stupid and then called him an idiot in the very same post. Calling someone a name or implying they are of low intelligence is by definition ad hominem, in much the same way Killahurtz has written you off as being a "libby"... as if that just magically explains everything.

Either way, at this point I can't even tall what you guys are arguing about anymore.

 

[zero1945]

You don't spend your way out of debt. You spend your way out of a downtrodden economy, and then increase revenue when things get better. Keynesian economics says that right now we shouldn't worry about the debt as much as we should worry about stimulating the economy and getting ourselves back on our feet. This pattern was working until Reagan and Bush (both of 'em) came and fucked everything up.

No. That is not what Keynesian economics says. Keynesian economics says that you save during good times and spend that savings in an attempt to even out the business cycle. (Whether it works or not is another conversation.)

The United States does the spending part and not the savings part. So it's impossible that the "pattern was working" because the pattern was never even tried.

Keynes never said that we should deficit spend until you go bankrupt like we are trying now. And I hate to break it to you, but we've been stimulating the economy with trillions in borrowed/printed cash and things aren't really getting better.

The unemployment rate is only going down because people are dropping out of the labor force and food stamp recipients are at an all time high.

 

[sleepeeg3]

In 2010 taxes collected by federal, state and municipal governments amounted to 24.8% of GDP. The only two industrialized economies that raised less tax revenue as a percent of GDP were Chile and Mexico.[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_States

Our corporate taxes are the highest in the world. That made up statistic from the New York Times says nothing about that. Get the EBT cards out of your ears.

With our excessively high tax rates and unavoidably outrageous labor rates, it is no wonder our competitiveness if falling.