(UPDATED) Microsoft walks back decision to double price of Xbox Live Gold subscriptions

One thing I don't see in this thread is .. "Do people who game on consoles own a desktop PC at home? Do they work from home?" I ask this because I've been WFH for a long time (hopefully so are you?), even before the pandemic, but on GitHub for OSS stuff for myself, and for work itself. My PC has been much more than just my gaming workhorse. For better or probably worse, I spend most of my life on my PC one way or another, working+/coding, or gaming.

Where I'm going with this: Do people with consoles on this thread, vehemently stating that its a better value, still buy desktop PC's for productivity? If so, you can kiss your "good deal on a console" goodbye. I'd not be surprised if the console players here spend 500$ every few years for a piece of junk laptop/PC and don't associate that loss of money with what could've been a consolidated gaming rig. In my case, I know many people who fall into this category. The way I look at my computer is that every single part of it is for 'work' except my GPU; that is just luxury, but obviously not everyone is a coder.
 
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Mystique said:
The way I look at my computer is that every single part of it is for 'work' except my GPU; that is just luxury, but obviously not everyone is a coder.
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Same here, except for me the GPU is necessary for work as well, not just gaming.
 
Anecdotally, I know a lot of people whose only computer is the laptop their employer has given them. But that doesn’t prove anything - just wanted to point out that for a lot of people, their phone may be the only “computer” they have.

(or a laptop provided by their employer, which is also very common in my experience and is generally not something they can play games on).

but to your point, you’ve just answered your own question:

Mystique said:
still buy desktop PC's for productivity? If so, you can kiss your "good deal on a console" goodbye. I'd not be surprised if the console players here spend 500$ every few years for a piece of junk laptop/PC and don't associate that loss of money with what could've been a consolidated gaming rig
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The PC is still more expensive. To use your own example, you’re either buying a junk PC every few years that can’t really play games, and it needs upgrades, or you’re buying one that costs more so it can.

now you say, “but they already have a PC, so they’re spending that money anyways!”

So what does 8 years of gaming upgrades for a junk PC cost? What does 8 years of high end gaming hardware cost?

is it more than $400? Because if so, a PS4 was still cheaper.
 
M76 said:
Stop trying to prove that chosing a console is the "right" move. As chosing a PC isn't the right move either, it's a personal preference everyone choses what they chose because it is the right move for them. So stop arguing for heaven's sake. You'll never declare a winner in the console vs pc war.
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This is a correct statement, there isn't a blanket statement that choosing a Console vs PC is "right" or "better". It all depends on the user and what they need. Some people don't need a desktop PC. Some people do.

deruberhanyok said:
Anecdotally, I know a lot of people whose only computer is the laptop their employer has given them. But that doesn’t prove anything - just wanted to point out that for a lot of people, their phone may be the only “computer” they have.

(or a laptop provided by their employer, which is also very common in my experience and is generally not something they can play games on).

but to your point, you’ve just answered your own question:



The PC is still more expensive. To use your own example, you’re either buying a junk PC every few years that can’t really play games, and it needs upgrades, or you’re buying one that costs more so it can.

now you say, “but they already have a PC, so they’re spending that money anyways!”

So what does 8 years of gaming upgrades for a junk PC cost? What does 8 years of high end gaming hardware cost?

is it more than $400? Because if so, a PS4 was still cheaper.
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Lets put it this way, I need a computer... I also like to game. I already have a computer. Pretend I don't have a GPU or console.
Should I get a console or a GPU?
PS5 = $400-$500
In my case, I got a RX 5700 for ~$320.

So in the end, people that actually need to have their own computers for work or school, etc, can just add a GPU if they know what they are doing.

You can argue till you're blue in the face saying that owning a console would be cheaper for me.

If I had a Console, I would still need a computer, AND because of budget constraints I would have to compromise on one or both to get it to fit in the budget.
Why would I want to pay the same amount of money and get a worse experience doing work/school AND gaming???

In my case I can compromise on neither experience by building my PC and that is part of the appeal of PC gaming.

And again I'm not making a blanket statement.
 
Your argument only holds true if you don’t upgrade your video card again, or any other part of your “already had it” PC, for the entire lifetime of a PS5.

it’s simple math. If the PS5 costs you $500 over 8 years (I’m assuming similar lifespan to the PS4 here), and the GPU is your only purchase in the same timeframe and costs $320 - the PC was cheaper for you.

if you upgrade your video card again, or your RAM, or replace the motherboard and processor at some point, and it adds up to more than $500 - the console was cheaper. Possibly significantly cheaper.

So let’s come back here in five years and see how much more you’ve spent on upgrades in that time.
 
deruberhanyok said:
it’s simple math. If the PS5 costs you $500 over 8 years (I’m assuming similar lifespan to the PS4 here), and the GPU is your only purchase in the same timeframe and costs $320 - the PC was cheaper for you.

if you upgrade your video card again, or your RAM, or replace the motherboard and processor at some point, and it adds up to more than $500 - the console was cheaper. Possibly significantly cheaper.

So let’s come back here in five years and see how much more you’ve spent on upgrades in that time.
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Fine with me, I don't have to pay for 8 years for a online gaming subscription...
Also, amount of RAM that I have has nothing to do with gaming at all, I would be just fine with 16GB, so having the additional 48GB wasn't a gaming expense.
CPU is also another one, I didn't get a 3900x for gaming, if I wanted a good enough gaming CPU I would get a 3600 or 3700x.
The reasons I upgrade CPU and RAM to higher tiers aren't for gaming but they have a nice "side effect" of being better at gaming.
I do a lot of encoding, VM stuff, servers, school, and like my machine to be responsive.

So I would have a 3900x rig with 64GB of RAM regardless if I played games or not. I only have a RX5700 because I play games otherwise I would still have my 6570.
So literally the RX5700 + games is my only "gaming expense".
So you're right, it is simple math.

I will gladly take you up on that offer since my last build consisted of a Piledriver CPU and a 6950...
I run my crap into the ground lol
Heck the workstation I used at my last job was a Dell Precision with dual quad core Xeons from 2008. (I had asked if I could replace my tiny little slow workstation with my own lol)
 
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So let’s come back here in five years and see how much more you’ve spent on upgrades in that time.
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I'll be sure to ask if your poor quality and QC console still works as expected, is still relevant and wasn't super-seceded by a "pro" model, and doesn't sound like an airplane caked in dust, too. Unless of course, you being a casual gamer, loves to take apart poorly constructed cases to clean badly designed thermal dynamics.

I'd be surprised if all 3 of them weren't true based on my experience with the PS4 ;)

Some differences my oracle eye can see: PC users won't be left with something inoperable; even if it can't play today's games at >70 fps, since as pointed out, Sandy Bridge (2011) is still a fine CPU. PC users won't have trapped digital games that may not migrate to the next iteration, and PC users won't have wasted money on a XBL sub. And in PS4/5's case, they won't be left with expensive controllers that are as good as garbage. (tbh, I love the XBox one controllers I still have I bought separately) Also with PC tech such as Nvidia DLSS, I wouldn't be surprised if scaling kept any need to actually upgrade to a minimum if you're budgeting for it.
 
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Mystique said:
I'll be sure to ask if your poor quality and QC console still works as expected, is still relevant and wasn't super-seceded by a "pro" model, and doesn't sound like an airplane caked in dust, too. Unless of course, you being a casual gamer, loves to take apart poorly constructed cases to clean badly designed thermal dynamics.

I'd be surprised if all 3 of them weren't true based on my experience with the PS4 ;)

The only difference is, I won't be left with something inoperable, I won't have trapped digital games, and I won't have wasted money on a XBL sub. And in PS4/5's case, I won't be left with xpensive controllers that are as good as garbage.
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Besides the Switch, the last console I had was a 360, and we all know how the 360 had problems.
Nintendo definitely knows how to build reliable consoles and gets around having lackluster power by having fun games.
The singular reason we got a Wii back in the day was to play Smash Bros. Spent almost $400 (adding game and controller cost) to play that one game with friends lol.
If Nintendo released games on PC I wouldn't have "needed" to buy a Wii or a Switch lol.............
 
As much as I love my switch, my gf has made 3 controllers have joycon drift (not at all her fault, the controller quality is horrible), so the Nintendo QC for their controller leaves ALOT to be desired. And they're expensive. It also hasn't even been a few years and they keep superseding the HW (mostly to fight roms and flashing custom OS, but still)
 
M76 said:
I'm surprised they were able to match the performance at all from $500. There is a huge gap between "thousands" and 500. Economical scale, that's just grasping at straws to somehow prove that consoles are objectively better. There is no such thing. Either you are satisfied with a console experience or you spend more money on a PC that far outperforms the console experience, or you go all out and have both so you don't even miss exclusives. There is no "better" here, just different choices. Stop trying to prove that chosing a console is the "right" move. As chosing a PC isn't the right move either, it's a personal preference everyone choses what they chose because it is the right move for them. So stop arguing for heaven's sake. You'll never declare a winner in the console vs pc war.
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That's the thing, I wouldn't really call one better over the other. Consoles represent better value for money, but only so long as you're happy with their performance and capabilities. PCs offer more power and flexibility, but they're expensive for meaningful performance improvements and aren't nearly as easy to use.

I'm mainly fighting against the DukenukemXes of the world, the PC snobs who can't accept that consoles are better at anything and genuinely want to kill choice and competition. The ones who hate the thought of someone having fun in a way they don't approve.
 
Rockenrooster said:
A real gamer plays all the games that he wants lol
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Most gamers just want to tell you why their preferred system is the best.

PCMR; I am most gamers too.

Spider-Man and some PS4 exclusives were some damn fine gaming. Xbox just really didn’t pull me in last gen though. Cross platform release couch games I normally get on Xbox but it just doesn’t seem necessary anymore. Hence my canceling gold live.
 
When artificially restricting the release of software is your only selling point, you don't have a good product. You have an anti-consumer piece of shit.

Dedicated video game consoles used to have proprietary hardware that let them do things you couldn't do on a contemporary PC. This was true through even the PS2 era. That was the justification for getting locked down into a shitty restrictive environment where software developers couldn't even release the applications they wanted to.

Today, they're simply scams that dummies fall for.
 
It is not a scam even if I won't buy a console ever again. It's very much a legit product worth considering for some folks.

I hate exclusives as much as the next person but someone correctly pointed out earlier in this thread the money that is allocated for exclusives by the creators of consoles is what makes the game so good. Money, money money. Wish it wasn't so, but it is how it is.

Very few games with every bell and whistle all gamers now scream for are made with love; mostly money, then love. As much as I want halo 5 on pc so I can experience it i understand 343 industries spent the better part of half a year fixing the console version after launch, so I can imagine they aren't interested in doing all that work to port it to the PC just yet especially with halo infinite in the pipeline.
 
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I'm tempted to get a XSX since it has full back compat with all Xbox games.

There were a few titles I wanted to play on the OG XB like Jet Grind Radio and Panzer Dragoon. Also Condemned 2, they never made a PC port.

But most of the Xbox titles make it to PC, so there is little reason beyond that to get it. Catching up on PS4 titles now (actually bought a PS4 Slim recently) will get a PS5 once they are available.
 
cybereality said:
I'm tempted to get a XSX since it has full back compat with all Xbox games.

There were a few titles I wanted to play on the OG XB like Jet Grind Radio and Panzer Dragoon. Also Condemned 2, they never made a PC port.

But most of the Xbox titles make it to PC, so there is little reason beyond that to get it. Catching up on PS4 titles now (actually bought a PS4 Slim recently) will get a PS5 once they are available.
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It doesn’t have full backwards compat. Only on certain games.

Looks sadly at OG Xbox copy of obi-wan.
 
bigbluefe said:
When artificially restricting the release of software is your only selling point, you don't have a good product. You have an anti-consumer piece of shit.

Dedicated video game consoles used to have proprietary hardware that let them do things you couldn't do on a contemporary PC. This was true through even the PS2 era. That was the justification for getting locked down into a shitty restrictive environment where software developers couldn't even release the applications they wanted to.

Today, they're simply scams that dummies fall for.
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I feel the fact the Xbox has nearly 0 exclusive now and are still getting sold as fast as they get made put some dent that exclusive is the only selling point of console, entry price and a all included ease of use for a sitting far from the tv setup/online friend list platform are also part of it.
 
bigbluefe said:
When artificially restricting the release of software is your only selling point, you don't have a good product. You have an anti-consumer piece of shit.

Dedicated video game consoles used to have proprietary hardware that let them do things you couldn't do on a contemporary PC. This was true through even the PS2 era. That was the justification for getting locked down into a shitty restrictive environment where software developers couldn't even release the applications they wanted to.

Today, they're simply scams that dummies fall for.
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Who pissed in your Corn Flakes?

Modern consoles aren't as distinct as they used to be, but they still have unique optimizations and features (see the DualSense controller as an example). And exclusives suck for availability, but they're fine by me if a game clearly takes advantage of the hardware or wouldn't have gotten off the ground without make-this-exclusive funding.

Just breathe. Relax. Let people have fun with platforms you don't prefer.
 
While PCs do get some features first or exclusively (like ray tracing, variable refresh, ultrawide, high refresh, 4K, etc.) I tend to find consoles work better with no BS.

For example, HDR is still a mess on PC, sorta works on Windows, not really working on Linux, etc. While consoles have had good HDR support since the Pro/X consoles came out.

4K on consoles was arguably more viable, I had a lot of fun with the PS4 Pro and Samsung TV, while on PC is was a huge struggle and I paid $1200 just to get a GPU that could hit 60fps.

This is because of checkerboarding, variable render scale, and other features on consoles that were integrated at a low level and working far better than PC (even today).

I tend to find fun in fixing issues on my computer, but most people have nether the time nor skill to do that, they just want something that works so they can play a game.

And I don't have a problem with exclusives. If all 4 major platforms had exactly the same games, what point would there be?
 
cybereality said:
While PCs do get some features first or exclusively (like ray tracing, variable refresh, ultrawide, high refresh, 4K, etc.) I tend to find consoles work better with no BS.

For example, HDR is still a mess on PC, sorta works on Windows, not really working on Linux, etc. While consoles have had good HDR support since the Pro/X consoles came out.

4K on consoles was arguably more viable, I had a lot of fun with the PS4 Pro and Samsung TV, while on PC is was a huge struggle and I paid $1200 just to get a GPU that could hit 60fps.

This is because of checkerboarding, variable render scale, and other features on consoles that were integrated at a low level and working far better than PC (even today).

I tend to find fun in fixing issues on my computer, but most people have nether the time nor skill to do that, they just want something that works so they can play a game.

And I don't have a problem with exclusives. If all 4 major platforms had exactly the same games, what point would there be?
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It's not that HDR support is poor on PC, it's the fact that for some reason developers take HDR out of their games on PC despite the console version having it. I've never had an issue with HDR on Windows 10 except for that short period of time when Microsoft superseded driver level features in one of the feature updates.
 
Rockenrooster said:
Fine with me, I don't have to pay for 8 years for a online gaming subscription...
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Instead of going back and forth about this again, and me bringing up the 300+ free games that have been handed out to XBL subscribers since whenever they started doing that, I'll just ask - How's that Cyberpunk multiplayer? Assassin's Creed: Valhalla multiplayer? Hitman 3 multiplayer? Skyrim? Tomb Raider? Control? Witcher 3? Uh... I guess you're playing a lot of Fortnite, then? So if you don't want to play an endless stream of team-based FPS, what are you playing online? Dota clones?

You can be perfectly happy with a console without the subscription, but the free games offset the cost pretty handily anyways.

Mystique said:
I'll be sure to ask if your poor quality and QC console still works as expected
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My PS4 slim and Xbox one S, both coming up on 4 years now, are working just fine. Cost me $200 for the xbox, new, and $250 for the PS4, also new. Haven't done anything other than occasionally pass the vacuum over top of them when I'm cleaning. I have definitely spent more than $450 on PC hardware in the same timeframe.

But I'm an odd duck - I was also happy with just my xbox 360 (2009-2017, $300, and I definitely spent more than $300 on PC hardware in that time) until I decided I wanted to play the FF12 remake on PS4, and waiting for the "slim" refresh of both worked heavily in my favor. The Xbox backwards compatibility was a nice plus so I got both, because they were on sale.

Tell you what. Add up how much you spent on PC hardware between 2013 and 2020 and if it was less than $400, I am wrong and it turns out a gaming PC is cheaper than a console.

(Why is math so hard? Is this why PCMR types think $300 motherboards and $500 processors are reasonably priced?)

Guys. It is OKAY for a console to be cheaper than a PC. You've got to just let that one go. You've got an "infinitely" upgradeable, more powerful system, that is able to do many more things than a dedicated gaming console. So it costs more. You pay for what you get, right?

Armenius said:
It's not that HDR support is poor on PC, it's the fact that for some reason developers take HDR out of their games on PC despite the console version having it
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Er... isn't that "poor HDR support" then? Whether it's the OS or the hardware or the developers at fault, seems like they don't want to be bothered supporting it on PC?
 
deruberhanyok said:
Er... isn't that "poor HDR support" then? Whether it's the OS or the hardware or the developers at fault, seems like they don't want to be bothered supporting it on PC?
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When I read support, I think of the underlying infrastructure. I would say "under utilized" for developers not having it in their PC games.
 
vegeta535 said:
am not saying a pc can't do it. Just the average PC won't be able to do it. A great deal of pre-builds computers come with garbage SSD/NVMe drives that are very slow. Hell some still come with spinning rust as default configuration.
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This matters less than you think.
 
deruberhanyok said:
The PC is still more expensive. To use your own example, you’re either buying a junk PC every few years that can’t really play games, and it needs upgrades, or you’re buying one that costs more so it can.
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Not really. A 2500k with a GTX 970 will still play Cyberpunk 2077 better than a PS4 and that hardware is like several years old now.
So what does 8 years of gaming upgrades for a junk PC cost? What does 8 years of high end gaming hardware cost?
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Still less than a PS4+PS4 Pro+PS5+ years of PSNow. What's more sad is that the PS4 and PS4 Pro doesn't get Demon Souls, and I'm pretty sure the new Demon Souls would run fine on a PS4 at 30fps. Same goes for Xbox though you gotta give credit to Microsoft since they're porting Halo Infinite on the Xbox One as well as the Xbox Series consoles.
 
Ugh. I’m not going to start doing your math homework for you guys again. You can just re-read the thread again for my responses to literally all of those points.
 
A PC is a lot of great things, but it's not cheap. I don't know how we can be Jonesing for $1500 video cards you can't even buy, then say a $400 console is more expensive.

Fact is, you get what you pay for. If you were building a PC today, probably the cheapest MSRP for a decent card is $400 (like the 3060 Ti or whatever). So you've just blown your whole budget on just the GPU. Forget the mobo, CPU, case, SSD, RAM, etc, etc.

This is simple math, I feel like people here are just trolling.
 
deruberhanyok said:
Instead of going back and forth about this again, and me bringing up the 300+ free games that have been handed out to XBL subscribers since whenever they started doing that, I'll just ask - How's that Cyberpunk multiplayer? Assassin's Creed: Valhalla multiplayer? Hitman 3 multiplayer? Skyrim? Tomb Raider? Control? Witcher 3? Uh... I guess you're playing a lot of Fortnite, then? So if you don't want to play an endless stream of team-based FPS, what are you playing online? Dota clones?

You can be perfectly happy with a console without the subscription, but the free games offset the cost pretty handily anyways.



My PS4 slim and Xbox one S, both coming up on 4 years now, are working just fine. Cost me $200 for the xbox, new, and $250 for the PS4, also new. Haven't done anything other than occasionally pass the vacuum over top of them when I'm cleaning. I have definitely spent more than $450 on PC hardware in the same timeframe.

But I'm an odd duck - I was also happy with just my xbox 360 (2009-2017, $300, and I definitely spent more than $300 on PC hardware in that time) until I decided I wanted to play the FF12 remake on PS4, and waiting for the "slim" refresh of both worked heavily in my favor. The Xbox backwards compatibility was a nice plus so I got both, because they were on sale.

Tell you what. Add up how much you spent on PC hardware between 2013 and 2020 and if it was less than $400, I am wrong and it turns out a gaming PC is cheaper than a console.

(Why is math so hard? Is this why PCMR types think $300 motherboards and $500 processors are reasonably priced?)

Guys. It is OKAY for a console to be cheaper than a PC. You've got to just let that one go. You've got an "infinitely" upgradeable, more powerful system, that is able to do many more things than a dedicated gaming console. So it costs more. You pay for what you get, right?



Er... isn't that "poor HDR support" then? Whether it's the OS or the hardware or the developers at fault, seems like they don't want to be bothered supporting it on PC?
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I don't think that the games I play matter too much in this discussion, but one of the main reasons I play games is to play with other real people.

As far as PC hardware costs I think you need to re-read my last post.

A gaming PC does the work of a vanilla PC and a console.
Yes a gaming PC is way more likely to be more expensive than a console, but a console has only really has one use case, to play games.
Anyone who buys/builds a $500 PC to 100% game and nothing else at all would be better served with a console. But most people who buy or build a PC don't use it to game 100% of the time.

If I had to choose I would MUCH rather have a $1000 PC than a $500 console and a $500 PC. I don't game 100% of the time.
Owning a $500 console and a $500 PC would be a terrible experience for me (Mostly on the PC side...)

Comparing Consoles and PCs is like comparing cars and trucks, both work as transportation for taking people places just fine, a truck can do more things (work) than a car.
For people that NEED to have a truck, they can get by not owning a car to get places .
By your logic, I should get a car even though I would still need a truck for "work". It won't work, I would have to settle for a piece of crap that will struggle at what I want it to do...
Apples and Oranges... Except the Orange can be an Apple if need be.

Also in my previous posts I pointed out my costs of owning a Nintendo Switch, the cheapest console, and it is by no means cheap to game on either. And I don't even pay for Nintendo online or whatever its called...

As for the other people saying that PC gaming is straight cheaper, I don't know what they are on...
 
I do wish HDR support on the PC was better than it currently is. But there are dozens of titles it works extremely well in already but it is a game changer when it works like it does in Doom.

I'll also point out that some games with HDR on console (lol fifa) don't have it implemented all that well anyways (at least in my experience), so may not be missing that much.
 
Rockenrooster said:
By your logic, I should get a car even though I would still need a truck for "work". It won't work, I would have to settle for a piece of crap that will struggle at what I want it to do...
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no, by my logic: if you just want a car to commute in (something to play games) and you don’t have any need for extra cargo capacity, going off road, or heavy towing (don’t care about running office or surfing the web) I would recommend a small car (console) that is inexpensive and gets good mileage (costs less) than a bigger truck that can do more (PC) but is more expensive and gets lower mileage (costs more).

(Unless the truck was cheaper and also got better mileage. because then the truck would be a better value for this intended use, regardless of the extra capabilities it provides.)

and some people are saying you should just get a Raptor with synced RGB lights instead.
 
Wade88 said:
Raptors have abysmal tow capacity and payload for a halfton pickup truck, deruberhanyok.
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Escalades then? I don’t know what trucks are cool with the kids these days :D

the Raptor seemed a pretty good analog for an RGB-blinged up $4,000 gaming rig that a streamer would brag about.
 
cybereality said:
A PC is a lot of great things, but it's not cheap. I don't know how we can be Jonesing for $1500 video cards you can't even buy, then say a $400 console is more expensive.
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$1500 is more than my entire PC excluding monitor. And I have an RTX 3070.

Yes PCs cost more overall but that gap isn't that big. Likewise for consoles, you don't need the Elite Xbox controller, or a $3000 TV.
 
Flogger23m said:
$1500 is more than my entire PC excluding monitor. And I have an RTX 3070.

Yes PCs cost more overall but that gap isn't that big. Likewise for consoles, you don't need the Elite Xbox controller, or a $3000 TV.
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That's an important point — it's just a bit odd to see people decrying the supposedly poor value of consoles as they buy systems where the GPUs alone cost as much or more than the latest PlayStation or Xbox. Even buying a no-frills PC alongside the console might not fully eliminate that gap.

With that said, I'm not really in the value camp... I have a PS5 alongside an iMac. 😛 I have a PS5 both because I enjoy the games and don't want to give up the Mac for everyday computing.
 
deruberhanyok said:
Escalades then? I don’t know what trucks are cool with the kids these days :D

the Raptor seemed a pretty good analog for an RGB-blinged up $4,000 gaming rig that a streamer would brag about.
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Escalades use too much of their payload on bling and seats, edify yourself https://www.trucks.com/2019/12/03/best-in-class-standard-optional-half-ton-pickups/
Attached is what I believe to have been the best dogs transporting machine in the history of the world up to 2016. Clean dogs in the cab, not clean ones in crates in the back, a Waterport tank to clean nasty dogs and human boots so all of them can ride in the HVAC'd zone. the back windows go all the way down into the door to more ably permit missileering dogs. Cops like F150s too so it's easy to buy remote door poppers. They also have that keypad on the driver door so you can lock the keys in it while it's running (use FORSCAN to disable the horrible beeping that results when you do this) so when parked outdoors the dogs can bask in the HVAC'd area instead of having to fit thermostatically controlled fans to blow through the sides of the bed topper.
https://thewaterport.com/
 

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I remember like 10ish years ago I bought a Wii with a bunch of games used and resold it all for more than I bought it 6 months later because some of the games had already achieved collectible value.

In general 5 seconds of effort and patience makes console gaming way more affordable than the scam that is PC gaming. Hey lemme pay another $1k for some cool looking fog in batman and some reflections on windows. ...or a few more numbers on 3DMARK ....or for a few more hats on steam
 
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