Unreal Engine 5 Revealed! Running real time on Playstation 5

Lakados

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Well played sir, I'll let you get back to Fortnite.
Too old for that, I can't keep up with those youngins and PvP titles are too stressful, its why I had to give up EvE, bad for my health
 

DrezKill

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Aaahhh, so the time has come for a new Unreal Engine, has it? A fuckton of 7th-gen games used UE3, same with UE4 for 8th-gen games, I guess now we'll be seeing UE5 proliferate during 9th-gen. Looking forward to messing around with the editor.
Impressive, definitely some next level shit, when does Unreal Tournament 5 come out?
Still waiting on UT4 which they abandoned (I messed around with the alpha a few times), and I'd like an Unreal 3 too please. Remember when Unreal Engines had Unreal games? Epic apparently doesn't.
 

PeaKr

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Too old for that, I can't keep up with those youngins and PvP titles are too stressful, its why I had to give up EvE, bad for my health

I feel ya, I was an EQ2 junkie for years then one day logged out and never logged back in. I average about a game a year these days.
 

defaultluser

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I know, the ps4 has zlib naturally in a chip and all, btw the drive you linked had nothing regarding compression.

Edit :
BTW the point of having the compression algorithm in the form of a chip is exactly to not cost anything to the cpu, the compression isn't added because developers are lazy, they are not, it's added to free up significantly cpu resources (for example the kraken chip of the ps5 is over provisioned in that sense, it's designed to be able to output up to 22 gbps but the actual average effective data output is between 8 and 9 gbps for the average game).

The Sandforce controllers have real-time compression of all writes.

https://www.enterprisestorageforum....ons-Impact-on--SSD-Throughput-Capability-.htm

The real-time compression is not free - it takes die space to add the fixed-function units. The firmware is also more complex then drives that don't use it - part of the reason Sandforce failed is because, in-addition to being slow on writing already compressed data, they never released a stable firmware!

If your largest pieces of data is already pretty well-compressed (think h.264 movies, and AAC music files, and JPEG pictures, modern installers using RAR or 7zip.), then your added value from a freature like real-time compression is limited.

Zlib has been universal on PCs for twenty years now (Windows XP supports it seamlessly in BROWSABLE compressed folders), so of-course PC users moved on to better compression algorithms. That is why there's such little benefit running real-time compression on a PC SSD - most of the data is already archived!

But for Console peasants, you can take whatever bone you can get from Sony finally embracing modern compression :rolleyes:
 
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polonyc2

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Yeah, UE4 tech demos were impressive too, but there weren't any actual games that came even close to that quality.

true...that UE4 Infiltrator demo was really impressive back in 2013 and even the best PC game today don't use all those features...it's a great hype video but it's too forward thinking...maybe when UE7 comes out games will start to look like UE5...are developers really going to implement all the high end features?
 
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Revdarian

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This makes me wonder how hard it would be (or what would be needed) to accomplish the same on a pc.

Could MB makers have custom Motherboards with a special m.2 nvme ssd slot for specialized ssd drives that were optimized in a similar manner? Same with the MB maker installing the same sorts of i/o compression support on the MB so that it too can effectively double the bandwidth with no hit to performance? Would windows need to be updated? The cpu/gpu makers?

And in fact, can't they do the same thing for some specialized hybrid system/gpu memory? Where the cpu and gpu would not only have access to their standard system and direct gpu memory pools, but a shared pool where information did not have to shift around for improvements? Or is all that just not worth it?

I don't want consoles to have an edge anywhere.




Here's the real issue, pc is a fragmented ecosystem so unless everyone gets on the same page and turn it into a standard used by more or less everyone, it won't be adopted and you need to get everyone on pc to only use kraken...

Can you begin to see how impossible this would be?

Kraken is very good for this one job, and thus in the closed ecosystem of the ps5 it's offered for free to the developers so they can use it on everything of their game and reap the benefits. But maybe kraken isn't ideal for a database or an archival system, so some companies will say "NO, I WILL USE TECH X Y Z" because that particular one is optimal for their use case, now play that scenario for every use case and you can see how impossible it would be to constitute it into a standard.

It's possible for very big companies to design FPGA's that accelerate their specific standard of choice and for them to use it in their datacenters, but that's pretty much the equivalent of a closed ecosystem :)
 

Revdarian

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OK I will put this asshat in /ignore, I've been pretty level headed explaining how it isn't magic it's just specialization for a single job and it seems that I pointed out that his epeen is minuscule if you take the way he reacted.
 

Revdarian

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true...that UE4 Infiltrator demo was really impressive back in 2013 and even the best PC game today doesn't look use all those features...it's a great hype video but it's too forward thinking...maybe when UE7 comes out games will start to look like UE5...are developers really going to implement all the high end features?


UE4 Infiltrator was not running on ps4, the one I posted here was the UE4 demo running on the actual console and like I said although a couple details are still pretty nice it does look dated VS first party output, this is not console magic either, just that with time new techniques have been found out to achieve similar or better output with less cost.

Will that happen again? Dunno, maybe? I don't have an 8ball but chances are that if you give enough time for thousands of people to tinker with a system, any system, they eventually will find new interesting ways to use it :)
 

Lakados

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true...that UE4 Infiltrator demo was really impressive back in 2013 and even the best PC game today doesn't look use all those features...it's a great hype video but it's too forward thinking...maybe when UE7 comes out games will start to look like UE5...are developers really going to implement all the high end features?
Well the tech in this case is mostly their Lumen and Quixel tech, which the time savings involved in using should save the studios a lot of money so not using them would be foolish, the back end pipeline changes are just a big bonus that should help FPS by removing some old inefficiencies that aren't needed on modern hardware. Too early to tell but I can see this getting used as fast as possible for new titles. Bigger question is what is EA and the studios who have brought their engines inhouse going to do about it.
 

Lakados

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It only just occurred to me now as I queue up the Mandalorian since I am going to be at the office for a LONG while still, I wonder how much Disney influenced this as they are using them for their real time scenery work on their sets.... Better looking assets out the gate for that stuff should help speed up and further lessen the post production work on their shows.
 

Aurelius

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It only just occurred to me now as I queue up the Mandalorian since I am going to be at the office for a LONG while still, I wonder how much Disney influenced this as they are using them for their real time scenery work on their sets.... Better looking assets out the gate for that stuff should help speed up and further lessen the post production work on their shows.

I don't know that Disney had a say, but I'm sure Epic was thinking about movie and TV producers fairly early on into development. After all, if you can produce games that are indistinguishable from CG in some ways, there's not much to stop you from using those visuals for special effects or an entire production.
 

Revdarian

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TheCR04

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@TimSweeneyEpic
can you please specify how exactly the PS5's "Better than high-end PCs" storage is not just a PCIE 4.0 NVMe SSD?


1







SBY3ARvZ_bigger.jpg

Tim Sweeney

@TimSweeneyEpic
·
2h

See the coverage of Mark Cerny's talk for technical details. The software and hardware stack go to great lengths to minimize latency and maximize the bandwidth that's actually accessible by games. On PC, there's a lot of layering and overhead.


----------------

I guess that Sweeney is a "console peasant" for pointing out that the specialized hardware actually is better in the thing it specialized at. Still not magic just status quo. Yes if you tried to do something different than playing games the system may crash and burn performance wise, luckily it is not meant for those other cases.
 

Lakados

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I don't know that Disney had a say, but I'm sure Epic was thinking about movie and TV producers fairly early on into development. After all, if you can produce games that are indistinguishable from CG in some ways, there's not much to stop you from using those visuals for special effects or an entire production.
Not so much an actual say but more like some producer talking to tech support or their liaison or whoever and just giving them their wish list for the last while. Like this is super great but you know what would be better..
 

cambrian

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41csxh.jpg
 

Armenius

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I'm sorry, but I saw nothing impressive in this demo. Someone is going to have to explain what makes this special and why normies are melting over it.
Looks impressive, especially the framerate.
I know, right? 30 FPS is always impressively bad.
 

Mchart

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I'm sorry, but I saw nothing impressive in this demo. Someone is going to have to explain what makes this special and why normies are melting over it.

I know, right? 30 FPS is always impressively bad.
It’s less about how it looks but the fact that it looks as good as it does if Epic’s claims are true.
 

imsirovic5

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I thought it looked great and very fluid, esp. for an early tech demo at 4k on a ps5.

Interesting quotes from Sweeney:

Apparently PS5 SSD is super impressive:

GamesBeat: Is there any reason you haven’t mentioned Xbox Series X yet? Is PlayStation 5 the lead horse for this in some way?

Sweeney: We’ve been working super-closely with Sony for quite a long time on the storage architecture and other elements. It’s been our primary focus. But Unreal Engine 5 will be on all next-generation platforms, and so will Fortnite.

Sony has done an awesome job of architecting a great system here. It’s not just a great GPU, and they didn’t just take the latest PC hardware and upgrade to it, following the path of least resistance. The storage architecture in PlayStation 5 is far ahead of anything that you can buy in any PC for any amount of money right now. It’s great to see that sort of innovation. It’s going to help drive future PCs. They’ll see this thing ship and realize, “Wow, with two SSDs, we’ll have to catch up.”

Supposedly this is how games will and can look like (not just a tech demo):

GamesBeat: If I could anticipate the internet at all, I would guess your pushback here might be, “Oh, we’re never going to see games like this.”

Libreri: This is running on a PlayStation 5. It’s running on the hardware.

Sweeney: It’s all real. The important thing is that this was not a vast new content development effort. These assets came straight from Quixel. We put it together pretty quickly into a scene. That’s the point of the technology, to enable any creator to build this kind of high quality scene without having to create each piece by themselves manually.

Libreri: I’m pretty certain that next-generation games on Unreal Engine can look like that. This is not a smoke and mirrors act. We’re genuinely trying to build technology that we enjoy using ourselves, and then have a game team build the demo, and then get it into customers’ hands. Once the Nanite stuff is in customers’ hands, we’re excited to see what they discover, how they want to evolve it. We’re going through a bunch of the workflows to make sure they’re efficient for all studios, but it’s exciting. Something that looks as good as that, it can’t help but bring joy. We’re excited. The next year is going to be amazing.

Full interview:

https://venturebeat.com/2020/05/13/...l-engine-5-to-make-next-gen-graphics-shine/2/
 

exlink

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I thought it looked great and very fluid, esp. for an early tech demo at 4k on a ps5.
I believe it was rendered at 1440p/30 and upscaled to 4K. Just watched the Digital Foundry video on the tech demo where they mentioned that.
 

Red Falcon

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What drives from a decade ago were capable of 5.5GB/s? Also, current consumer drives top out at 5GB/s (unless there's a faster one I haven't run across).
RAMdisks were capable of it well over 15 years ago.
Also, in before everyone says "but it cost so much back then." :D

No one said it was cheap - have to pay to play!
 

deruberhanyok

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that's some incredible tech at work. Not having to lose time spent "downsizing" art assets for things like LoD is going to be a huge boon to dev teams.

Really looking forward to the next gen console releases, and then seeing what these game engines can do on a top end PC.
 

drutman

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Anyone notice the motion blur and slight lag when character is rotated and moving? I was get a tad nauseated even on a 144 Hz screen. Is it at 24/30 Hz cinema frame rate? Notice how there is no texture pop in, looks good. How do we know it wasn't rendered somewhere else and played back on PS 5 ? If I remember the SW demo NVIDIA had that was actually crunched on a DGI box and played on a PC?
 

Ihaveworms

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I have my doubts that the storage is anything highly proprietary. If I was to guess, it is a PCI-E 4.0 based nvm-e.
 

Mchart

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Anyone notice the motion blur and slight lag when character is rotated and moving? I was get a tad nauseated even on a 144 Hz screen. Is it at 24/30 Hz cinema frame rate? Notice how there is no texture pop in, looks good. How do we know it wasn't rendered somewhere else and played back on PS 5 ? If I remember the SW demo NVIDIA had that was actually crunched on a DGI box and played on a PC?
Epic has no reason to lie here in my opinion because devs would find out fast if they were.
 

Delicieuxz

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I find it interesting that the demo features virtually limitless detail, yet it runs on the PS5 at, it seems, 30 FPS. So, console hardware is just at the exact point where it can handle precisely that colossal of a jump in level of detail with this new technology, yet happen to still get exactly 30 FPS with it? That seems particularly coincidental, to me.
 

Mchart

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I find it interesting that the demo features virtually limitless detail, yet it runs on the PS5 at, it seems, 30 FPS. So, console hardware is just at the exact point where it can handle precisely that colossal of a jump in level of detail with this new technology, yet happen to still get exactly 30 FPS with it? That seems particularly coincidental, to me.
I think you’re over thinking it.
It would be cool to see the same run through with a 60fps target to see how well the technology can deal with it.
 

Marees

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I'm sorry, but I saw nothing impressive in this demo. Someone is going to have to explain what makes this special and why normies are melting over it.

I know, right? 30 FPS is always impressively bad.

This is 1440p 30fps on PS5

When you play this on 3080ti then, with DLSS 3.0, you should be able to play at 4k 120fps
 

Marees

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I find it interesting that the demo features virtually limitless detail, yet it runs on the PS5 at, it seems, 30 FPS. So, console hardware is just at the exact point where it can handle precisely that colossal of a jump in level of detail with this new technology, yet happen to still get exactly 30 FPS with it? That seems particularly coincidental, to me.

Console target is minimum 30 fps like we saw in Assassin's Creed Valhalla
 

polonyc2

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so the future is now Lumen and Quixel?...I thought the future was tessellation?...then the future became photogrammetry...Vulkan...then ray-tracing
 

Azrak

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I want to know how much of the PS5's SSD was used to hold all of the textures for this demo.
No matter how awesome the SSD is on the PS5, it's still going to be less than 2TB, I would assume. There's only so much 8K texture data and Quixel raw footage you can put on it before you run out of space. This will be the limiting factor in all real-world shipping games for the PS5.
  • Amazing graphics
  • Small storage footprint
  • Large game world
Pick any two.
 

Nolan7689

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I'm sorry, but I saw nothing impressive in this demo. Someone is going to have to explain what makes this special and why normies are melting over it.

I know, right? 30 FPS is always impressively bad.
No need to be quite that elitist. Yes, (outside of broken engines tied to framerate) 60 is always better than 30. That doesn’t make 30 bad though. 30 is the baseline.

Hell, 30 is actually the new baseline really. 25 years ago 30 was plenty often a goal to achieve. Look at most N64 or PS1 titles. Sub 30 and fucking fantastic with rose tint on.

All I’m trying to get at, 30 might not be as desirable but if handled well it is perfectly acceptable. (Blah Blah blah [H])
Anyone notice the motion blur and slight lag when character is rotated and moving? I was get a tad nauseated even on a 144 Hz screen. Is it at 24/30 Hz cinema frame rate? Notice how there is no texture pop in, looks good. How do we know it wasn't rendered somewhere else and played back on PS 5 ? If I remember the SW demo NVIDIA had that was actually crunched on a DGI box and played on a PC?
It’s 30fps per Digital Foundry. And we don’t truly know it wasn’t rendered elsewhere, but they have said it’s running real time on PS5 hardware (see interview quotes posts above this)
I find it interesting that the demo features virtually limitless detail, yet it runs on the PS5 at, it seems, 30 FPS. So, console hardware is just at the exact point where it can handle precisely that colossal of a jump in level of detail with this new technology, yet happen to still get exactly 30 FPS with it? That seems particularly coincidental, to me.
It’s almost exactly as coincidental as as other consoles releasing and hitting a 30 or 60 FPS lock.

As much as they say they threw this together real quick like, I’m sure they did some tweaking for overall level of detail to hit a target frame rate. Just like most tech demos we see, they’re curated.
 

limitedaccess

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Seems like the console was having no problems playing that at all and it looked quite nice. Just not sure how real I want my games to feel tho.

How realistic something is a design choice. I remember this being brought up with the move to ray tracing as well. I'll use the same example with Pixar/Disney CG movies, they use extremely high fidelity assets and other technologies/methods that live action movies use for CG as well, they obviously are not going for a realistic look visually.

My question is whether pci express 4 has the bandwidth and speed to match sonys implementation? And if so, how long before we have access to ssds for the pc market that match or surpass what sony has?

This is one area where it sounds like Sony's console has pc users beat, and that allows larger worlds to be drawn in real time.

Also, for pc hardware upgrades, SSD speed might become more important than it has in the past. I've taken a good enough approach so far to nvme ssd speeds, but if there is some greater tangible benefit about being able to load larger levels and worlds in real time with ultra fast ssds, I'll have to spend more there.

I've brought this up on these forums a few times but the concern shouldn't be raw hardware specs, actual next gen PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs will have the PS5 beat in that department, and if you have the money there is always Optane and ramdisk.

The problem is how that storage is accessed compared to the PC.

As it is the PS5 is at 5.5GB/s throughput which is quite high, and considering current PCI 4 nvme drives are hitting around 5GB/s it’s still faster. The spec does however go up to 7GB/s is my understanding. For once it kind of makes sense for Sony to be vetting drives for use in the PS5 rather than just saying put it whatever fits.

The current PCIe 4.0 SSD controllers are still "last gen" controllers essentially, eg. the Phison E16. "Next gen" controllers, eg. the Phison E18, and drives are road mapped for later this year. They will actually hit the theoretical speed limits for PCIe 4.0, and without the ridiculous heat output due to moving to newer litho (existing controllers are 2x nm generation, next ones will 1x nm).

I want to know how much of the PS5's SSD was used to hold all of the textures for this demo.
No matter how awesome the SSD is on the PS5, it's still going to be less than 2TB, I would assume. T

PS5's accessible storage on the SSD is 825GB.
 

variant

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I want to know how much of the PS5's SSD was used to hold all of the textures for this demo.
No matter how awesome the SSD is on the PS5, it's still going to be less than 2TB, I would assume. There's only so much 8K texture data and Quixel raw footage you can put on it before you run out of space. This will be the limiting factor in all real-world shipping games for the PS5.
  • Amazing graphics
  • Small storage footprint
  • Large game world
Pick any two.

There's a point you just can't see the difference on texture size, so you are basically just having high resolution textures for the sake of it, not because it looks better. "Yay, I have a 4k texture on this 3 inch rock."
 

Nolan7689

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I've brought this up on these forums a few times but the concern shouldn't be raw hardware specs, actual next gen PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs will have the PS5 beat in that department, and if you have the money there is always Optane and ramdisk. The current PCIe 4.0 SSD controllers are still "last gen" controllers essentially, eg. the Phison E16. "Next gen" controllers, eg. the Phison E18, and drives are road mapped for later this year. They will actually hit the theoretical speed limits for PCIe 4.0, and without the ridiculous heat output due to moving to newer litho (existing controllers are 2x nm generation, next ones will 1x nm).
I won’t say I’m not wrong but I’m almost positive I heard/read (heard in the sense of from the Cerny direct or Digital Foundry) that the PS5 had a custom controller for the SSD. Hence it’s 6 levels of priority.
 

Red Falcon

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And in fact, can't they do the same thing for some specialized hybrid system/gpu memory? Where the cpu and gpu would not only have access to their standard system and direct gpu memory pools, but a shared pool where information did not have to shift around for improvements? Or is all that just not worth it?
This is unified memory, and literally what the consoles already do.
However, VRAM has much higher latency than standard RAM - games might benefit from the higher bandwidth, but general programs, databases, etc. will all suffer from it.

So, even as cool as it would be to do this, it would definitely be a use-case scenario.
 

Marees

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Epic CEO Tim Sweeney says next-generation gaming consoles, in particular Sony’s PlayStation 5, will bring about changes in game development that go far beyond a jump in graphics quality. During a press briefing for the company’s newly announced Unreal Engine 5, which is optimized to work with next-gen consoles, Sweeney says the PS5 is a “remarkably balanced device.”

Sweeney isn’t saying that you can’t get a comparable M.2 drive for your PC, even now if you want to shell out for it. Rather, he’s saying the custom drive Sony created and the way it interacts with the overall PS5 data management system makes it faster and more impressive from a development standpoint that anything a consumer could readily buy today, especially considering PC developers aren’t yet building games that take advantage of such speeds. That may change in the future when both new consoles arrive and, as Sweeney predicts, inspire significant upgrades to PC component design and PC-specific game development.

https://www.theverge.com/21256299/e...-ps5-ssd-impressive-pc-gaming-future-next-gen

via fps Review
https://www.thefpsreview.com/2020/0...mpare-to-playstation-5s-storage-architecture/
 

sleepeeg3

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Holy fawk! Those Unreal Devs never cease to amaze me. Great work.

I think the character model was the only thing in the demo that wasn't jaw dropping. Human faces always seem to look like porcelain dolls, when using polygons.
 
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