Unethical or just plain Unlawful? What to do?

This is definitly sabotage. If they do it for this reason, they could quite possibly do it to milk a customer for more.

If your company is not receiving payment for services rendered then they need to seek legal action. However, from your post is seems as though customers not paying is becoming more regular. Maybe the customer does not know what they are paying/ getting out of the deal. It could be some sort of miscommunication or sales approach error.
 
I can understand that they have to pay to get work done. The problem is that my company is effectively breaking a companies network because they owe them money. Making it impossible for them to do day to day business. When the tech comes onsite to "fix" the issue, it is NEVER told to the customer that WE broke it. Just that "something" went wrong and we had to resolve the issue, so therefore you now owe us an additional 135$ an hour X however many hours it took to "fix" the problem.

It happened to one of our customers 2 times in 2 months. The first time they disabled the netlogon sessions, reset all of the user passwords, reset the admin password on the domain and changed all of the exchange services to manual start. Effectively destroying the companies network. I had to go in and they eded up being charged 4 hours of work to "fix" the issue. The seond time roughly the same thing was done.


Visad

Holy crap, that's not cool at all. If I were the company on the receiving end, I would not be happy. That is totally unacceptable and I totally know what you're talking about. Your company should go to their subscribers/clients and tell them, "If you do not pay by X time on X day/month, we will be forced to shut down your service/contract."

This "behind the scenes" garbage and charging them for it is complete crap and is VERY illegal as it is basically theft (for stealing service and charging them to do it).

I know that finding work is tough right now, but you may want to talk to a personal lawyer about this if your ethical standpoint is really hurting.

The conflict is, do you turn in your employer and be out of a job? or do you go with it and let the abuse/theft happen, but keep your job?

Good luck on this Visad. Hoping the best for you.
 
Just to throw in my .02, I actually used to work for a company that did the exact thing. To echo what many people are saying, definitely start looking for a new position somewhere else. Also, be careful about spilling the news to the clients, you never know the contract, or relationship with the company. The company I used to work for - many clients were old friends of the boss, or signed contracts due to friends being "helpful". Long story short, you might open a huge can of worms that you don't want to deal with.

Best advice is just leave the company and watch from the sidelines. That kind of stuff always comes back and bites people in the butt. And its hilarious to watch from the sidelines.
 
Yeah man, don't damage your rep by staying with those crooks. Start job hunting, and if they mention your no-compete when you finally put in your 2-weeks notice, tell them you know what's going on and if they know what's good for them they'll let you go before you clue their customers in on what they're doing.

Other folks are right, a no-compete doesn't hold much weight in court, and they can't bar you from working for the competition if they fire you out of retaliation to a threat to blow the whistle. They should be perfectly aware of this, and if they decide to take you to court for the no-compete after you quit, the judge won't look kindly upon them if you state that you had to quit to perserve your reputation. You would need to be able to offer some sort of proof though, and that's the tricky part. I'm guessing you can avoid getting to that point in the first place however.

Best situation would be to get out, find another job that doesn't interfere with the no-compete, and anonymously notify the customers of what's going on (assuming you didn't cut some kind of deal not to blab). Then they can handle collecting evidence and launching a legal campaign. And you get to watch the fireworks show... :)
 
What state are you in? Many states don't even worry about non competes...often it's just for a stakeholder in the biz (partial owner/partner).

Clients, if they like you as their tech...will often follow the tech no matter what company he/she works for. It's their right to choose who services them.
 
Just like everyone else here, I'm not a lawyer but like to pretend. =)

I don't see how this can be considered anything other than malicious hacking, sabotage, etc. It's one thing to go into their network and disable the monitoring systems you have in place as part of the contract - similar to repoing a car, you're just taking back what they're not paying for. It's another to go in and purposely disable massive chunks of their network, then on top of that charge them to fix it.

There's a lot of legalese in those contracts, but I assume there's something in there about allowing access "only as needed for repair/upgrade purposes" or similar. I'm sure they can push the blame off on an incompetent or disgruntled employee as others have said, but I have a feeling that those accesses to disable stuff shouldn't be allowed under the contract, and therefore open them up to all sorts of hacking crimes.

Do as the others said and get a lawyer. CYA, then do what you can to make the situation right. That might be prosecuting them for maliciously attacking other businesses' computer systems, or just shining some light on what they're doing. Remember the part above about blaming an incompetent or disgruntled employee? CYA.

P.S. I had a friend/co-worker who got a job with CyberNet. He was there one day and saw how they did things. He came back and talked to our boss, and it turned into him taking a vacation day rather than quitting.
 
This is extortion and is VERY illegal, apparently a federal crime (usually a felony) and should be reported to the FBI. If you willingly involve yourself knowing that it is a crime, you could be held liable. Failure to report may put you in hot water too if someone does report it eventually. Obviously consult an attorney before doing anything, period.

As to the comments about the contractual agreements with the customers. You cannot create a contract that is unlawful. Even if you sign a 'contract' that gives someone permission to kill you, the contract is not legal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion

PS - I'm definetly not a lawyer, but I know what extortion means and can use the google ;)
 
If your employer was leasing a combo of servers/services, and the contract drawn up stated that x number days past due, we shut it off, yeah, thats fine.

However, if this isn't in the contract, and they are also charging for the shit they did, I would run.

If I was you, gtfo, keep your head down. Write an exit report on why you are leaving, and what you didn't like.
 
This is extortion and is VERY illegal, apparently a federal crime (usually a felony) and should be reported to the FBI. If you willingly involve yourself knowing that it is a crime, you could be held liable. Failure to report may put you in hot water too if someone does report it eventually. Obviously consult an attorney before doing anything, period.

As to the comments about the contractual agreements with the customers. You cannot create a contract that is unlawful. Even if you sign a 'contract' that gives someone permission to kill you, the contract is not legal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion

PS - I'm definetly not a lawyer, but I know what extortion means and can use the google ;)

It wouldn't really be extortion, since extortion involves some sort of coercion, which the company is not using. If the customer knew that if they didn't pay that they would face further network problems, then it would be extortion, but as such the customer is still unaware.

It would be probably classified as cyber vandalism, computer crime, as well as possibly fraud and/or conspiracy to commit fraud. And the OP would be considered an accessory to the crimes if he knowlingly participates in them.

But then, I'm not a lawyer either. I just know what extortion is not... :p
 
Your first call needs to be a lawyer. You need to protect yourself, and a lawyer can help, especially when it comes to your non-compete agreement. There are certain restrictions on these agreements, and it can vary from state to state by statutes.

Don't listen to anyone online who says your agreement won't hold up in court or you should take some sort of action, consult someone who is an expert in Michigan law.
 
As some of our other members have suggested, this is illegal; unless of course there is a clause in the contract that the other party signed that said, "Yes, if we don't pay you on time, we are obligated to pull our pants down in front of you and let you have at it."

Contracts are made to be broken, with legal counsel your non-compete clause will be a non-issue. It really comes down to you...Do you want to have a job with an ill conscience, or start looking for a new one? I wouldn't judge you either way...

Personally, the republican in me says screw em, they should have paid regardless if this is illegal; the democrat in me says you should work for them for free and apply for food stamps when you don't get paid...Just kiddin, there's not much democrat left in me anymore.
 
Personally, the republican in me says screw em, they should have paid regardless if this is illegal; the democrat in me says you should work for them for free and apply for food stamps when you don't get paid...Just kiddin, there's not much democrat left in me anymore.

I think this explains why our economy is in shambles!
 
As a small biz owner, I have considered non-compete's, but based on legal advice, they are not geneerally enforceable in court. In very broad terms, courts have held that you can't restrict a person's ability to make a living, so I wouldn't be worried too much about it.

I was with an ad agency in Philadelphia for a while, who made me sign a non compete. HOWEVER, everyone knew it was pretty much just for show, considering non-competes are invalid in PA. We had tons of people switch to other companies, not a single law suit was taken out.
 
Sounds like you work for San Diego Computers.

*note
I don't know you but I was just reading about the company above doing the exact same MO not long ago.
 
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Okay, I read the majority of this particular thread, but only skimmed that last page so forgive me if someone has already mentioned this.

Under no circumstances should you ever take your personal computer (laptop) into your office. If your employer is willing to be so unethical to the customers, I cannot imagine what malicious software would be installed on your laptop should you choose to connect to your office network.

I have worked for an unethical employer in the past. I stayed only long enough to find a new job elsewhere once I learned of the wrong practices and deceitful tactics being performed.

As everyone else in the thread has already stated, get a new job. And if you choose to work for one of your 'competitors', I would make the following recommendations: 1) CYA before leaving and 2) do NOT discuss your current employer with the new employer!
 
Just an FYI... I have since left this company and in Michigan (an at will state, it is almost impossible for them to enforce the non compete) I have not said anything to the clients, but a major chunk of them contacted me afterwards and asked to go with me where ever i worked.
 
Just an FYI... I have since left this company and in Michigan (an at will state, it is almost impossible for them to enforce the non compete) I have not said anything to the clients, but a major chunk of them contacted me afterwards and asked to go with me where ever i worked.

How many customers are we talking about, cause i might just have an opening ;)
 
Just an FYI... I have since left this company and in Michigan (an at will state, it is almost impossible for them to enforce the non compete) I have not said anything to the clients, but a major chunk of them contacted me afterwards and asked to go with me where ever i worked.

Nice job man, I just now read this thread and that was pretty awful what your company was doing, good choice on leaving. Did you ever seek legal counsel? Take the clients and never speak of what has happened again!
 
Nice job man, I just now read this thread and that was pretty awful what your company was doing, good choice on leaving. Did you ever seek legal counsel? Take the clients and never speak of what has happened again!

Not over all of the aspects, but enough that they told me get out before I get entangled. Basically they told me that if the company ever says a word to me RE the non compete I just refer back to what I know to squash it.
 
Just an FYI... I have since left this company and in Michigan (an at will state, it is almost impossible for them to enforce the non compete) I have not said anything to the clients.
they told me get out before I get entangled. Basically they told me that if the company ever says a word to me RE the non compete I just refer back to what I know to squash it.

Morally it's probably not the best solution, but realistically it is. Wipe your hands and walk away. Usually jerks like them end up self-destructing anyway eventually. Good luck on your fresh start.
 
wat.jpg
 
Wait! Been here just over 6 years, and only 28 posts??

STALKER
 
Wait? 6+ months later and after he quits you come on here and post this?

wat.jpg
 
Wait? 6+ months later and after he quits you come on here and post this?

I'm thinking the boss response is either a joke or the OP joined a new company. From the way he is talking it implies he is willing to leave to go work for someone else and take clients with him.

Rule number one about the internet...never give out information over the internet that you can be used to personally identify you. ;)
 
I was joking! This thread was full of serious business, so I decided to try and lighten the mood up. My bad guys I didn't read the last page before posting! doh!

:D;)
 
As someone who deals with clients like this, i see where your company is coming from. Nothing is more annoying then a client who does not pay.

While it may seem like sense and it might get results to do that, i think its basically illegal. Your taking down (well not you, you know what i mean) someones network, against the law.

Unless of course in the contracts you state that failure to pay can result in any and all services being terminated... it would have to be written in there something like "well we'll install this, but if you fail to pay any bills, we will disable this until you pay" then i can see it makes sense...

it is a tricky situation.

I had a client like this,. On a support contract, failed to pay for that and some hardware we installed... what we did... well they wanted to get some new hardware installed (backup hardware) we told them no problem, but we need 50% deposit AND the remaining balance paid. They said they would give us the 50% and asked us to order it... i said "no before we order it, i need 50% AND your balance paid, BEFORE i order it). they didnt like that. They claimed we were holding a gun to their head, which we were not. We were just haulting any future orders until the balance was paid.

Our contacts also state if they fail to pay, over a certain amount of time they get additional fees tacked on/late fees. I don't thikn we've EVER enforced that, even for clients over 2 years (yes we have clients, even over 4 years, who still owe money and we still service them, they just pay years late)... but i have told clients "sorry i need 50% deposit and the remaining balance when i show up, before anythings insatlled) and that usually gets them to pay, when you refuse to service them in the future.

You risk losing the business, but at the same time, these clients are not paying anyway
 
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