By marintime law you have to dump your anchor if it is snagged. You also risk sinking your ship if your anchor is snagged.
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Undersea Cable Cut Impacts Europe, Asia
- Thread starter Terry Olaes
- Start date
By marintime law you have to dump your anchor if it is snagged. You also risk sinking your ship if your anchor is snagged.
Its mainly from the big ship operators who want to save fuel.
The common practice before there were a lot of oceanic fiber was to drop a supercheap anchor as soon as you hit the continental shelf, and drag it for tens of miles to slow down the ship. Some ships being many tonnes, like oil supertankers that are 550,000 DWT (dead weight tonnes)
If you use the engine to slow down the ship by inverting the propeller, you actually "waste" tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of fuel.
Replacing a cast iron anchor every time the ship ports is almost free by comparison.
The common practice before there were a lot of oceanic fiber was to drop a supercheap anchor as soon as you hit the continental shelf, and drag it for tens of miles to slow down the ship. Some ships being many tonnes, like oil supertankers that are 550,000 DWT (dead weight tonnes)
If you use the engine to slow down the ship by inverting the propeller, you actually "waste" tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of fuel.
Replacing a cast iron anchor every time the ship ports is almost free by comparison.
i thought about doing this whilst i am taking my break from my last ece final study session..
but then i realized i just failed my physics exam and really am not in the mood for it..
anyway, im suprised that ships still do drag their anchors, isnt it illegal now? (i.e. use anchors when not in a storm).
meh.. probably not.
I know a few months ago when we had that sudden surge of cable outages it actually was (or was told to us as) that they were all anchor draggers.
I don't know if they got together and banned it it at least X-Y-Z but if not I would hope that they would take this as an incentive to do at least that, and then 1st bury any new ones in concrete tubes, and then "half-pipe?" those already in place
I don't know if they got together and banned it it at least X-Y-Z but if not I would hope that they would take this as an incentive to do at least that, and then 1st bury any new ones in concrete tubes, and then "half-pipe?" those already in place
Actually, it's interesting to note that most people 'over there' don't relate this to America at all. In fact, it seems to be the Americans that are creating the majority of the conspiracy theories. Now, as before, most of the people in the middle east that are experiencing this disruption either don't know or care about the cause, nor believe it has anything to do with USA, nor believe it to be a great zionist conspiracy. In fact, out of everyone I've spoken with that's experiencing difficulty and has been able to briefly connect, they shrug it off as usual internet reliability issues.
QFT. This is what I've been saying for a long time. As much as we naturally wish to believe that some grand and beautiful (albeit often evil) scheme of planning and conspiracy is hidden behind the typical "shit happens" explanation for unexpected events, the truth is, that explanation is usually right. It's Occam's Razor: all other things being equal, the simplest solution is the correct one. There is no need to introduce vast global conspiracies to explain something as simple as an incompetent ship captain.
(Science geeks: I know that paraphrase of Occam's Razor is not exactly correct, but this way, it's simpler.
)Sure:
(kinetic energy) = (1/2)(mass)(velocity)^2
Assuming a cruising speed of 10 knots and a mass of 500,000 tonnes:
(kinetic energy) = (1/2)(500,000 tonnes)(10 knots)^2 = 6,616 megajoules
One liter of diesel fuel = 38.6 megajoules
6,616 megajoules * (1 liter)/(38.6 megajoules) = 171.4 liters of diesel = 45.2 gallons of diesel
Assuming an efficiency of 25%, we will then need 45.2 / 0.25 = 180.8 gallons of diesel fuel to stop the ship.
That seems extremely low. What did I do wrong?
Sure:
(kinetic energy) = (1/2)(mass)(velocity)^2
Assuming a cruising speed of 10 knots and a mass of 500,000 tonnes:
(kinetic energy) = (1/2)(500,000 tonnes)(10 knots)^2 = 6,616 megajoules
One liter of diesel fuel = 38.6 megajoules
6,616 megajoules * (1 liter)/(38.6 megajoules) = 171.4 liters of diesel = 45.2 gallons of diesel
Assuming an efficiency of 25%, we will then need 45.2 / 0.25 = 180.8 gallons of diesel fuel to stop the ship.
That seems extremely low. What did I do wrong?
Fluid drag mechanics such as sea water doesn't work quite as easily as that, the acceleration and deceleration of a ship is not linear, not by a long shot. Those oil tankers take 10-15 miles to slow down with the props running full speed reverse, why, the props blade pitch and area are minuscule next to the ships forward momentum energy. At 10 knots that prop would displace millions of gallons of water to drop just a few joules of energy off of the ships kinetic energy, as the ship slows down that ratio gets larger. In reality it likely takes 1000-3000 gallons of diesel to slow down. I do not know the math specific to ships, that is in itself a whole field of engineering.
Yeah, its pretty heady math.
A lot of the stopping power is lost to shearing energy as the turning blades are extremely inefficient. Basically, all the blades do is turn the water, like an egg beater.
On many ships, they are usually designed conically to give maximum thrust in a forward direction, and not maximum stopping power in the backwards direction. Although there are ships that do have 180 - degree rotatable blades.
They have also been known to use S like weaving to slow down in an emergency - at the expense of putting extra shear stress on the sides of the ship.
But yeah, these things are much worse than trains for stopping power. Usually they have to do full back engine power several miles before they reach their destination.
A lot of the stopping power is lost to shearing energy as the turning blades are extremely inefficient. Basically, all the blades do is turn the water, like an egg beater.
On many ships, they are usually designed conically to give maximum thrust in a forward direction, and not maximum stopping power in the backwards direction. Although there are ships that do have 180 - degree rotatable blades.
They have also been known to use S like weaving to slow down in an emergency - at the expense of putting extra shear stress on the sides of the ship.
But yeah, these things are much worse than trains for stopping power. Usually they have to do full back engine power several miles before they reach their destination.
Six cables cut at the same time, each more than 120KM apart, twice in a single year! Whoever says it's a co-incidence certainly works for the 'big evil' , whoever he is !
You won't feel how angry we all are until it happens to you. Yes, i'm from Egypt, we're going to extend 3 cables just for our own use in 2009, thankfully, just hope 'they' (maybe the evil earthquake?) don't cut it again!
, whoever he is !You won't feel how angry we all are until it happens to you. Yes, i'm from Egypt, we're going to extend 3 cables just for our own use in 2009, thankfully, just hope 'they' (maybe the evil earthquake?) don't cut it again!
They're each 120km apart? I'd like to see the (non-tinfoil-hat-waring, reputable) source for this.
xX_Jack_Carver_Xx
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HOC... your 25% assumption is fine for diesel-to-mechanical conversion in the ships engine, NOW you need to account for the efficiency of that mechanical prop energy translating into slowing the ship. Figure 1%-5%, maybe as high as 10%, but that means anywhere from 1,800 to 18,000 gallons of fuel required for the slow down.
Ah, so the efficiency is much lower than I thought. Thanks.
Don't talk out of your ass. A more realisitic number is 80-90%. If it really took anything near 18,000 gallons of fuel to get a tanker moving or stopped to/from 10 knotts the cost of shipping would be about 100 times what it is now.
wait...forgive my stupidity but traffics between "europe, asia and the middle east"?
arent they all on the same (admittedly massive) landmass? What does UNDERSEA cables really have to do with it?
I could see how it might affect United States communications between all of those since they need the undersea cables to communicate with the likes of Asia and Europe. Furthering the irony, AMERICA is beign used to rerout the traffic problems CAUSED by cut undersea cables???
I guess i'm a little confused.....
arent they all on the same (admittedly massive) landmass? What does UNDERSEA cables really have to do with it?
I could see how it might affect United States communications between all of those since they need the undersea cables to communicate with the likes of Asia and Europe. Furthering the irony, AMERICA is beign used to rerout the traffic problems CAUSED by cut undersea cables???
I guess i'm a little confused.....
I doubt it would be over 3000 gal, as for prop efficiency well its a variable thing, when the prop is first thrown in reverse the efficiency is less then 1% but it will build as the ship slows down. When a ship is moving in a strait line with props running full forward they are very efficient likely in the 80% range, its just when they try to resist momentum that they become less so. The multi-blade props on the nuke subs are very very efficient for rotational energy to linear directional, in the 98% range but to make a prop as such cost a crap ton of money as the blades have to be harmonically ideal.
"Harmonically ideal"? I'm guessing the math for that is beyond my current understanding.
Grow up!
Can you read Arabic? ... http://www.masrawy.com/News/Egypt/Politics/2008/december/20/internetmainten.aspx
Didn't think so, anyway, the translation ...
That's my translation, forgive my mistakes Mr. I Know It All.
So. . . one Arabic news source has it at six cables with some ambiguous language regarding distance between each cable (is that 120km between each cable? Or at one point is there 120km between?). Probably a translation issue, but that's an odd way of saying that the average distance between each cable was 120km (amounting to a swath 720km wide).
Either way, I've yet to see this repeated elsewhere. I'm tempted to go with what I can read in my own language without depending on the translations of others. Thanks to the MEMRI as well, it's pretty apparent that often times Arabic news organizations report one thing to native Arab speakers while reporting something different to the West (as do leaders say one thing in Arabic and then something else in English. . . Arafat used to do this all the time).
Anyways, if you want to believe that someone is out there intentinoally doing this. . . be my guest. It probably makes you feel better than just believing that this stuff just happens. I'm going to go by what the owners of the cables say, however, and how they behave. Until they start calling for retaliation against those they believe are responsible, I'd say it's likely that these are accidents.
Either way, I've yet to see this repeated elsewhere. I'm tempted to go with what I can read in my own language without depending on the translations of others. Thanks to the MEMRI as well, it's pretty apparent that often times Arabic news organizations report one thing to native Arab speakers while reporting something different to the West (as do leaders say one thing in Arabic and then something else in English. . . Arafat used to do this all the time).
Anyways, if you want to believe that someone is out there intentinoally doing this. . . be my guest. It probably makes you feel better than just believing that this stuff just happens. I'm going to go by what the owners of the cables say, however, and how they behave. Until they start calling for retaliation against those they believe are responsible, I'd say it's likely that these are accidents.
Source: IndiaTimes
I've seen one other report of there being three cables severed and three others that suffered minor damage. But most reports are only talking about three.
Note this from PCMag:
So, the question remains, why would anyone do this? Especially if it doesn't actually serve to cut off people from the internet? Most places (such as Egypt) were able to switch over to a 2ndary route.
Suspected by whom? People on internet forums?
I've seen one other report of there being three cables severed and three others that suffered minor damage. But most reports are only talking about three.
Note this from PCMag:
Now, either they run much closer together than reported and a single ship did all this. . . or a seismic event (or series of events, as often happens) is responsible for them all three going out within approx. 40 minutes.
So, the question remains, why would anyone do this? Especially if it doesn't actually serve to cut off people from the internet? Most places (such as Egypt) were able to switch over to a 2ndary route.
Remember the last time this happened and everyone was stating with 100% certainty that it could not have been accidental and had to be the work of undefined saboteurs?
Oh. . . woops. . . they were indeed severed accidentally by ships as demonstrated by the owners of the cables (who you'd think would want to catch those responsible) after examining satellite imagery and the cables themselves. They even impounded the two ships deemed responsible in Dubai. One was from Korea. The other from Iraq.
Link
But this time, it just has to be sabotage. Because this can't just happen!
Oh. . . woops. . . they were indeed severed accidentally by ships as demonstrated by the owners of the cables (who you'd think would want to catch those responsible) after examining satellite imagery and the cables themselves. They even impounded the two ships deemed responsible in Dubai. One was from Korea. The other from Iraq.
Link
But this time, it just has to be sabotage. Because this can't just happen!
Rabid Badger
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You know, that article stated very clearly that those two ships weren't responsible for all of the cuts, and that the others were still unexplained.
Also, I sure wish someone would come up with some definitive information on the location of the cuts relative to one another. If they're in close proximity, then I'd be willing to write this off as coincidence.
"Harmonically ideal"? I'm guessing the math for that is beyond my current understanding.
Have you noticed that crappy fans make noise and the better more expensive fans are quiet? The higher quality fans are more ideal, they were designed to cut the air cleaner and move more air per revolution, the noise is slop, it is the air being cut but at a less then idea angle or volume per rotation.
I do not exactly know how to explain it fully to someone who didn't spend 4+ years in college studying engineering. The math for such interactions is rather high level, in the calc 4 range, its masters level physics that I only brushed on in school as it wasn't the field I focused on.
Oh, I see then. So what you're saying is that those two ships cause some/most of the cuts. . . but the rest were the CIA/Bush/Al-Qaeda/Israel/Spacemen.
The point was that those who actually have a vested interest in giving a shit and finding out what happened don't believe it was sabotage and have demonstrated that it isn't.
It's interesting that those who don't believe in coincidences are so quick to believe that only some cuts were accidental while others at the same time were intentional. What a coincidence!
That very article shows where the cuts took place in the earlier episode. Note the little red circles. . . and note that they are relatively close to land, where the cables converge.
Now, I realize scale might be misleading here. . . but to me it doesn't look like you could sail from point A to point B in that entire region with an anchor dragging and not put the entire communications system in that area at risk.
Rabid Badger
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Why would a ship sail around the entire Arabian peninsula with an anchor dragging?
Rabid Badger
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If they're that close together, then it does make an accident more likely.
Emission
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Why bother with cables? Use really big wifi dishes!
Why does it seem you go out of your way to miss the point?
Again, you don't have to travel "around the entire Arabian peninsula" to cross over several if not all cables. They all converge at several points. And they run close to each other as the map (which you requested) shows.
And, recall that earlier in the thread, we were told (though it's unverified) that large ships often drag their anchors for vast distances in order to slow themselves without having to use their engines. Thus saving on immense fuel costs.
Wait, nevermind, it was the Canadian Secret Service. Why? Well, I just don't like Canada.* So it's almost certainly them.
*not really.
ordovician
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One of my hostory professors when I was in college spoke on this issue:
"Some people say history is made through carefully planned conspiracies; others say history is largely a just a bunch of mixed events. I prefer to think of history being made through a bunch of mixed up conspiracies."
"Some people say history is made through carefully planned conspiracies; others say history is largely a just a bunch of mixed events. I prefer to think of history being made through a bunch of mixed up conspiracies."
Someone mentioned Occam's razor previously: "All things being equal, the simplest cause/reason is usually the correct one." (paraphrasing)
I prefer (political columnist) Krauthammer's razor: "Never assume conspiracy or malice when simple incompetence and ineptitude will suffice."
I prefer (political columnist) Krauthammer's razor: "Never assume conspiracy or malice when simple incompetence and ineptitude will suffice."
Hurin, dude, i don't understand why are you so aggressive? o.0
First, chill! I think that's the reason i responded harshly the first time to you without reading your post carefully.
Second ... why are you attacking the credibility of our news agencies, that says something about your mentality, don't you think? And speaking of hypocrisy ... at least our news channels talks about ALL news around the world, unlike YOUR channels that talk only about Iraq, Afghanistan and USA, as if the whole world is non-existent. I watch your news channels a lot, and i must say, it's weird they never say anything about Palestine. Or maybe i'm watching the wrong channels?! (CBS, Fox, NBC, and ABC are the wrong ones to watch?!). And you're taking ONE man as an example of how Arabs are not-credible, fanaticism and racism at its finest. Also, our news agency said "ITALIAN authorities announced" not Egyptian!
There's something called Intelligence Agencies, why do they exist? Why are there assassins in the world? Why do Americans think the war on Iraq was a scam and why's the government sucking Iraq's oil to the US' benefits? Why do people become enranged when they find out the government was doing something behind their back? Why ... man, it's not worth it! Conspiracies exist, but shame they were tied with stupid people thinking Aliens are studying us for AGES by kidnapping individuals instead of just invading earth and studying all they like. And why are they taking so long to do it? ... I wonder, with all their technology!
Anyway, that's off-topic, i don't care if you believe me or not, or to be more precise, i don't "need" you to believe our news. And i'm not saying there's a conspiracy here, it might have been an accident indeed, but one should always take into account all possibilites. All i can say is that there's something called logic ... 4 cables cut in January, in DIFFERENT places of the ME, then 6 more cut in Decembre of the SAME year ... oh my God, what was i thinking ... accidents of course! The earth hates us so much that it cuts OUR cables out of all the cables in the world, in the Atlantic (UK-NY), in areas more susceptible to earthquakes (Japan-LA), in areas with insane sea rages (India, Indonisea ... etc). If any of those cables are cut regularily, then forgive my ignorance, and time for me to shut up. Until then ... use your brain!
I just thought i'd update the news here, but seems i was wrong. And the title of this thread should've said "Affects EU-ME-Asia communications", that's what the news article you linked said actually.
/rambling off
First, chill! I think that's the reason i responded harshly the first time to you without reading your post carefully.
Second ... why are you attacking the credibility of our news agencies, that says something about your mentality, don't you think? And speaking of hypocrisy ... at least our news channels talks about ALL news around the world, unlike YOUR channels that talk only about Iraq, Afghanistan and USA, as if the whole world is non-existent. I watch your news channels a lot, and i must say, it's weird they never say anything about Palestine. Or maybe i'm watching the wrong channels?! (CBS, Fox, NBC, and ABC are the wrong ones to watch?!). And you're taking ONE man as an example of how Arabs are not-credible, fanaticism and racism at its finest
. Also, our news agency said "ITALIAN authorities announced" not Egyptian!There's something called Intelligence Agencies, why do they exist? Why are there assassins in the world? Why do Americans think the war on Iraq was a scam and why's the government sucking Iraq's oil to the US' benefits? Why do people become enranged when they find out the government was doing something behind their back? Why ... man, it's not worth it! Conspiracies exist, but shame they were tied with stupid people thinking Aliens are studying us for AGES by kidnapping individuals instead of just invading earth and studying all they like. And why are they taking so long to do it? ... I wonder, with all their technology!
Anyway, that's off-topic, i don't care if you believe me or not, or to be more precise, i don't "need" you to believe our news. And i'm not saying there's a conspiracy here, it might have been an accident indeed, but one should always take into account all possibilites. All i can say is that there's something called logic ... 4 cables cut in January, in DIFFERENT places of the ME, then 6 more cut in Decembre of the SAME year ... oh my God, what was i thinking ... accidents of course! The earth hates us so much that it cuts OUR cables out of all the cables in the world, in the Atlantic (UK-NY), in areas more susceptible to earthquakes (Japan-LA), in areas with insane sea rages (India, Indonisea ... etc). If any of those cables are cut regularily, then forgive my ignorance, and time for me to shut up. Until then ... use your brain!
I just thought i'd update the news here, but seems i was wrong. And the title of this thread should've said "Affects EU-ME-Asia communications", that's what the news article you linked said actually
./rambling off
There is a saying "Ship Happens!"
I can back this claim up. Where I came from this was a banned but yet popular technique to save on fuel costs, it was not only dangerous to wires below, but it destroys the reefs or anything else the anchor is dragged over.
In a sense it's like air braking for semi trucks, it saves fuel at the cost of everyone else.
This is ironic. . . considering what follows. . . exactly where do I need to chill? Where am I calling names or acting upset? I'm merely disagreeing with you. I'm not sure why you read hostility or anger into that.
Ummm, I didn't question all of them. I merely asked for a second source. As I would from anyone (more than two actually) before buying into anything completely, especially when considering a charge so serious as the one being so casually thrown around. The burden of proof should be upon those accusing others of wrong-doing. Not those assuming an accident.
Sorta irrelevant and I'm not sure I see where this ties into our discussion at hand other than exposing your resentments But I can imagine why your news covers the rest of the world so regularly while ours does not to the same extent (there is some coverage, though clearly not as much as you'd like). . . because the rest of the world's decisions have a much larger impact on your everyday lives than it does on ours. South Korea, or South Africa's affairs can impact a smaller economy and situation much more directly than it could that of the U.S. So, quite frankly, our news media doesn't spend as much time on things that don't interest the average Amercian.
Where did I say that Arabs are not credible? Where did I talk about "ONE man?" I'm not sure what to make of that smilie you included. Were you making this charge or not? I merely said that I would need to verfiy via other sources. I said this because the middle-east often has state-run media outlets that are often fact-challenged and spin everything to the liking of the ruling party. Did I say this is because they are Arab? Of course not! It's not an Arab thing, it's a freedom of speech thing where the press is owned by the state (though I understand that Egypt has some free media outlets) and therefore prone to twisting things in accordance to what the state wants its people to believe.And you're taking ONE man as an example of how Arabs are not-credible, fanaticism and racism at its finest
Again, what is your point? They (the ITALIAN authorities) announced that they were sabotaged? They announed that there were six cables? They announced that each cable was at least 120km from every other cut cable at their nearest points? Those were the facts in question. Just citing a source doesn't make something true. But again, I think it's been amply demonstrated (as was shown during the last episode) that whether it be three or six, an accident is the more likely cause.
Well, clearly, they exist to make sure your YouTube runs slower for a weekend.
Wow.
That's a different attitude than the one you originally had. So I think that's progress.
The prior cuts were shown to be accidents by the owners of the cables. And the cuts didn't happen in different places but in only a few where the cables converge. Take a look at the map above. Note the multiple circles near Egypt. All very clost together (so close that they are difficult to isolate).
One could argue that it is those who are standing against alarmism, and the jumping to conclusions that blame everyone's pet enemy that are "using their brains." Meanwhile, it has always been the allure of a conspiracy theory that those who "figure it out" feel as though they have come to a conclusion that makes them smarter or more aware than anyone else. But in reality, they've usually been sucked in by bad logic, tainted facts, or propaganda.
The best example I've seen of this are those who believe in the 9/11 conspiracies. Go watch "Loose Change". . . it's utterly convincing. Until you view the youtube versions of it where they point out all the false evidence, bad logic, and mis-represented quotes from witnesses. At which point, the movie's conspiracy claimes completely fall apart. But for those who don't bother to verify the movie's claims or watch the "counter-movie". . . most of them are 100% convinced of the movie's claims.
The same thing with the Apollo moon landings. One of our networks put on an hour-long show arguing that the moon landings were faked. All of them. And it's utterly convincing and sounds feasible. Until you go to badastronomy.com (or more recently, the Mythbusters on Discovery Channel debunked the conspiracy theorists). Then all of a sudden you realize that the conspiracy-theorists are either addled or just flat-out lying.
Watch "JFK". . . by the end of it, you'll be convinced that Oswald could not possibly have acted alone. Then watch: "Conspiracy Unmasked: The JFK Assasination" and you'll quickly realize how much lying Oliver Stone had to do to make his movie and how Oswald being the only shooter makes perfect sense.
In each of the three cases above, it's the conspiracy theorists who are always making the claim that they are the only ones "using their brains". . . while they make untrue, unfair, and often dishonest assertions at the expense of others (in most cases, at attempt to portray the U.S. as a villain). Yet somehow it's not "using your brain" to point out flaws in such theories?
Anyways, it was nice chatting with you. And since you now readily admit that it could have been an accident, aren't we done?
Sure, we're done. I stopped argueing a long time ago about my religion or where i'm from simply because we're stupid to think anyone out there care. I'll point out what i mean below in one of your quotes. It was a mistake to try and argue with you, i appologise . I'll keep my replies short ...
There's something called 'tone of voice'! Oh crap, you'll argue about the 'voice' word used in this sentence, won't you? Just the fact that you keep attacking our media in every other word is enough to indicate hostility (revise your replies)!
I didn't accuse anyone dude, lol, i merely said 6 cables were cut instead of 3. And NOWHERE did i say our media is suspecting anyone!
Based on that arguement, you shouldn't just believe HardOCP's news. Go search on the Internet for a proof of 6 cables, i won't do it for you!
Guess it's irrelevant indeed!
Now there's something interesting ... first, you're talking about economics, i was talking about politics. Second, you don't care about human rights, yet you invade Iraq for human rights. Might need to explain this a bit ... you say world news doesn't concern the average American, maybe you meant economic news, sure, but that indicates how small the minds of Americans are, don't you think? Take into account that the above indicates you don't care about your government's foreign policy, and that you believe you live on an island, seperated from the rest of the world. Seriously ... no comment!
Israel = USA's very very very close ally. Yet, NOWHERE in your news does it speak about Israel. Hmmm, weird, ha?
After all the above, don't you think i have the right for resentement?
Where? Here ...
Twisted? I never saw anything in our news different than yours. And are you so naive to think that private owned channels are even more prone to 'personal' interests in a worse fashion than state owned channels?
Look above, you took one man as an example dude, as if all Arabs are like that!
And you mentioned Egypt's freedom of speech, well, i'm from Egypt, and talk as an Egyptian.
I think this is becoming stupid, and running in circles ... Oh man! ... Anyway, the authorities in Egypt MUST communicate with the Italians to understand what happened, so they'll get the facts first, before the western media, and in more detail.
Oh wait, you already proved my point yourself that the western media doesn't care about foreign news, so why would they have all the details, i wonder!
I didn't change my attitude, it's the same, you're the one not understanding me, or half-reading my posts!
o.0, the owners tripped on the cables?! n00bs i guess!
I want the link to that 'counter-movie' please.
Ok!
As i said above, just needed to make final comments about what you said, and ask for that movie link. It was a mistake engaging in an arguement, despite making the decision not to do so anymore (have my own reasons).
So, anyway, nice chatting with you again, comment all you want, i'm done. Just don't forget the movie link please, thanks.
. I'll keep my replies short ...There's something called 'tone of voice'! Oh crap, you'll argue about the 'voice' word used in this sentence, won't you? Just the fact that you keep attacking our media in every other word is enough to indicate hostility (revise your replies)!
I didn't accuse anyone dude, lol, i merely said 6 cables were cut instead of 3. And NOWHERE did i say our media is suspecting anyone!
Based on that arguement, you shouldn't just believe HardOCP's news. Go search on the Internet for a proof of 6 cables, i won't do it for you!
Guess it's irrelevant indeed!
Now there's something interesting ... first, you're talking about economics, i was talking about politics. Second, you don't care about human rights, yet you invade Iraq for human rights. Might need to explain this a bit ... you say world news doesn't concern the average American, maybe you meant economic news, sure, but that indicates how small the minds of Americans are, don't you think? Take into account that the above indicates you don't care about your government's foreign policy, and that you believe you live on an island, seperated from the rest of the world. Seriously ... no comment!
Israel = USA's very very very close ally. Yet, NOWHERE in your news does it speak about Israel. Hmmm, weird, ha?
After all the above, don't you think i have the right for resentement?
Where? Here ...
Twisted? I never saw anything in our news different than yours. And are you so naive to think that private owned channels are even more prone to 'personal' interests in a worse fashion than state owned channels?
Look above, you took one man as an example dude, as if all Arabs are like that!
And you mentioned Egypt's freedom of speech, well, i'm from Egypt, and talk as an Egyptian.
I think this is becoming stupid, and running in circles ... Oh man! ... Anyway, the authorities in Egypt MUST communicate with the Italians to understand what happened, so they'll get the facts first, before the western media, and in more detail.
Oh wait, you already proved my point yourself that the western media doesn't care about foreign news, so why would they have all the details, i wonder!
I didn't change my attitude, it's the same, you're the one not understanding me, or half-reading my posts!
o.0, the owners tripped on the cables?! n00bs i guess!
I want the link to that 'counter-movie' please.
Ok!
Anyways, it was nice chatting with you. And since you now readily admit that it could have been an accident, aren't we done?
As i said above, just needed to make final comments about what you said, and ask for that movie link. It was a mistake engaging in an arguement, despite making the decision not to do so anymore (have my own reasons).
So, anyway, nice chatting with you again, comment all you want, i'm done. Just don't forget the movie link please, thanks.
I've rarely seen more unfair generalizing, straw men, and (intentional?) misreading. . . here we go. . .
Further, our lack of interest in the rest of the world is a vestigial holdover from our isolationist past (prior to post WWII era) where we considered the "old world" to be the breeding grounds for wars, despotism, and overall crappiness. One of the founding principles of the U.S. was that we were going to do things differently over here and not be beholden to how the old world worked. Now, of course, a lot of that was fanciful and overly idealistic. . . but it has fed into our overall lack of interest in the events in Turkmenistan or Taiwan.
The only part that you partially get right is that until more recently, we did like to keep to ourselves over here. . . and we still have that mindset somewhat even as world events after WWII sorta dictated (looming Soviet Union over Eastern Europe and even the Middle-east) that we stop being isolationist.
We're a nation of 300 million people. We have quite enough news to cover over here without covering traffic accidents in Tripoli. Or the elections in Paris.
If I say that North Korean news media tends to be state-run and therefore suspect. . . am I saying that all Koreans (North and South) are dishonest? That all news from any Korean source is untrustworthy? Of course not. And it would be silly of anyone to accuse me of such a thing. Yet you seem to have no problem doing so.
And I note how you've had nothing to say about the map. . . how close together the cables run. How the cuts were so close together. . . nope. . . you'd rather now talk about how much our media covers Israel and how I'm a racist because I point out the fact that Arab media is often state-run. And that state-run media isn't always honest or interested in reporting news that doesn't suit its interests. Which is why there is the concept of a free press and diversity among news sources.
Here's the link.
It seems you wanted to stop talking about the cable cuts a long time ago and instead somehow got sidetracked into every rambling resentment and (perceived) grievance that you somehow manage to bring up even when nothing I've said warrants them. You're constantly fitting round pegs into square holes in order to just lash out while squeezing everything into your rather angry worldview.
I'm going to endeavor not to respond again and merely beseech any casual readers here to read the above post and note the unfounded, hyperbolic accusations of racism. That appears to be the lion's share of the opposing argument. And as such, since it's being disingenuously made and used to obfuscate the real argument, I have no interest in continuing the discussion. When statements of fact are met with such unfounded, inflammatory charges, there's not much civil discussion to be had.
Well, that's hyperbole. As my statements of fact regarding state-owned media in the region hardly took up that much of what I've had to say.
Oh, I see, you weren't accusing anyone of anything even when you first came in here and crapped all over the idea that it could have ever been an accident. And that anyone who thinks that it was an accident must have some ulterior motive? Or (later) not using their brains? If it wasn't an accident, then someone did it on purpose. Yet, you're not accusing anyone? Very nice. And disingenuous.I didn't accuse anyone dude, lol, i merely said 6 cables were cut instead of 3. And NOWHERE did i say our media is suspecting anyone!
You accuse me of half-reading your posts below. Yet if you had read mine, you'd have noted that I mentioned that I found one other reference to three cables being severed and three other cables partially severed. That's six.
You're actually the one making a distinction where there need not be one here. But you pretty clearly missed my point. My point was that the average American isn't affected by events in the rest of the world as much as smaller countries around the world are affected. Whether it be politics, or economics. I mentioned economics because politics, world events, and everything else acts upon economics. . . and economics has a real, concrete effect on people. They feel it in their level of income or their well-being. So, when politics, or other types of world events have an effect that is tangibly felt, the media tends to cover them. Much of the rest of the world being more susceptible to such effects from even smaller nations and economies, their media tends to cover the other nations more than the U.S. who is more immune to such effects.
Further, our lack of interest in the rest of the world is a vestigial holdover from our isolationist past (prior to post WWII era) where we considered the "old world" to be the breeding grounds for wars, despotism, and overall crappiness. One of the founding principles of the U.S. was that we were going to do things differently over here and not be beholden to how the old world worked. Now, of course, a lot of that was fanciful and overly idealistic. . . but it has fed into our overall lack of interest in the events in Turkmenistan or Taiwan.
Wow. That's awfully bold of you to just assert. Very nice.
Heh. No comment? That was all commentary. And, I might add highly problematic and disingenuous. Somehow you extrapolate and then assert with certainty that I (or all Americans?) must not care about our foreign policy. That we must not care about human rights. Yet we've done more in the last sixty years to keep huge swaths of this globe free than any nation in history (ie., Western Europe isn't speaking Russian right now due to our putting our cities at risk of nuclear annihilation to protect them -- nevermind why they aren't speaking German). We give more to charitable causes around the world than all other nations from your region combined despite the huge sums of petro-dollars many of those regimes collect. We fund a huge (disproportionate) portion of the U.N.'s operating costs even though they tend to only act against our intrerests at every opportunity. Oh, but we don't care about human rights because we don't cover events in your country or want to hear about them every day? That's utterly silly.
The only part that you partially get right is that until more recently, we did like to keep to ourselves over here. . . and we still have that mindset somewhat even as world events after WWII sorta dictated (looming Soviet Union over Eastern Europe and even the Middle-east) that we stop being isolationist.
Are you kidding?!? Every time the Israeli conflict heats up again, we're bombarded with news about it. Mostly pro-Palestinian as well. But no, we don't hear about Israel daily. Just as we don't hear about Britain daily. Or Pakistan. Or India. Or Japan. We only hear about Isreal when something relatively major happens. I suspect you hear about Israel so much because so many in that region hate Israel so much.
We're a nation of 300 million people. We have quite enough news to cover over here without covering traffic accidents in Tripoli. Or the elections in Paris.
I think you have convinced yourself that you have the right for resentment. That's not the same thing.
That's just blatantly dishonest. To say that some Arab news organizations are state-run and therefore may not be totally honest is not the same thing as saying that Arabs are dishonest or that any Arab news organization is dishonest. That you've repeatedly tried to place this charge in my mouth via faulty logic and disingenuous innuendo is quite honestly pretty despicable.
If I say that North Korean news media tends to be state-run and therefore suspect. . . am I saying that all Koreans (North and South) are dishonest? That all news from any Korean source is untrustworthy? Of course not. And it would be silly of anyone to accuse me of such a thing. Yet you seem to have no problem doing so.
Where the heck did "personal interests" come from? And it's certainly not naive to think that a state-run media apparatus is more prone to censoring the news and delivering only news that is friendly/helpful to the regime in power. The entire premise of a free press is based upon that idea. If it's naive to believe that a free press is important, why do we bother to have a free press? Why not just trust the Bush Administration to tell us everything it deems to be newsworthy. And you can just trust your guys over there to spoon feed you the news. You don't see a problem with that?
Pardon me. But horseshit. I did no such thing. You're losing an argument and don't like it. So now you're just making things up to try to portray me as saying things that I am not saying. Pure horseshit. I stated a fact: That some media outlets in the Arab world are state-run. Therefore I consider them suspect and I would want to verify what they are reporting. Further, there is a habit in the Arab world among some of its leaders and media to speak moderately in english, and then engage in pure inflammatory hyperbole when speaking in Arabic.
Good for you. But can you do the same towards your leaders without fear of reprisal? I'm not that familiar with Egypt's human rights records and current state of democracy. We get mixed reports over here. But I would posit that arguing with an American about how crappy you think America is really isn't all that good of a demonsration of freedom of speech in Egypt.
You missed the point. The point was that a possibly non-credible news service does not necessarily gain credibility merely by citing a source. If that were the case, apparently, I could make you believe everything I've said just by saying that all my information comes from "ITALIAN authorities" as well.
Really. . . because now you're saying that it's entirely possible to be an accident. . . yet you entered the thread saying this:
Six cables cut at the same time, each more than 120KM apart, twice in a single year! Whoever says it's a co-incidence certainly works for the 'big evil'
And again, you can't argue that it's unlikely to be an accident and then say that you're not accusing anyone of doing it intentionally. That's just plain illogical if not dishonest.
Again, you mis-read what I wrote. It was demonstrated by the cable owners to have been an accident. The accident was not perpetrated by the owners.. You'd argue better if you'd give some benefit of the doubt to the opposing side rather than always assuming they're saying something stupid or insulting.
And I note how you've had nothing to say about the map. . . how close together the cables run. How the cuts were so close together. . . nope. . . you'd rather now talk about how much our media covers Israel and how I'm a racist because I point out the fact that Arab media is often state-run. And that state-run media isn't always honest or interested in reporting news that doesn't suit its interests. Which is why there is the concept of a free press and diversity among news sources.
Shall I assume then that you are one of those people who believe that the U.S. perpetrated the attacks upon itself? Or had Israel do it?
Here's the link.
Something tells me that you're not done. But I can't imagine having any more to say on the issue other than pointing out again where you take my words and attribute bizarre meanings to them in order to paint me as something I'm not. . . rather than actually addressing my arguments.
It seems you wanted to stop talking about the cable cuts a long time ago and instead somehow got sidetracked into every rambling resentment and (perceived) grievance that you somehow manage to bring up even when nothing I've said warrants them. You're constantly fitting round pegs into square holes in order to just lash out while squeezing everything into your rather angry worldview.
I'm going to endeavor not to respond again and merely beseech any casual readers here to read the above post and note the unfounded, hyperbolic accusations of racism. That appears to be the lion's share of the opposing argument. And as such, since it's being disingenuously made and used to obfuscate the real argument, I have no interest in continuing the discussion. When statements of fact are met with such unfounded, inflammatory charges, there's not much civil discussion to be had.
I'm a man of my word, and when i say i'm done then i'm done.
Clarification: Unfortunately, i'm not good with words, my fault, and as such i shouldn't argue with anyone until i learn how to speak. Most of the time when i read what i write i smack myself for doing so in such manner that it makes me appear as an ignorant. BUT, it affects only the way i want to express my thoughts, not the thoughts themselves. I appologise for that.
Thanks for the link.
And sorry for going off-topic everyone.
On-topic: Hope those cables are fixed fast enough (est. 31/12/2008). Also, hope the new cables Egypt is drawing make a real difference in lessening the effect of any furture cuts, especially that we're planning on extending 3 in totally different directions as far as i heard. Those cables are supposed to be used by Egypt alone, but i wouldn't be surprised if we hired the bandwidth to other nations.
Clarification: Unfortunately, i'm not good with words, my fault, and as such i shouldn't argue with anyone until i learn how to speak. Most of the time when i read what i write i smack myself for doing so in such manner that it makes me appear as an ignorant. BUT, it affects only the way i want to express my thoughts, not the thoughts themselves. I appologise for that.
Thanks for the link.
And sorry for going off-topic everyone.
On-topic: Hope those cables are fixed fast enough (est. 31/12/2008). Also, hope the new cables Egypt is drawing make a real difference in lessening the effect of any furture cuts, especially that we're planning on extending 3 in totally different directions as far as i heard. Those cables are supposed to be used by Egypt alone, but i wouldn't be surprised if we hired the bandwidth to other nations.
Wow, people in this thread argue about the cause more than people in the affected countries. If they don't care so much, why do you!?
Egypt was only affected for about a day, and even then many people still had internet and access to various services. Services like MSN weren't working, unfortunately, but ICQ was probably due to routing. Since a lot of people still haven't switched to DSL, dial-up services were rotating connections by disconnecting users after a brief period.
For the first cut, I think they only had something like 20% bandwidth. I believe they had more this time...
Egypt was only affected for about a day, and even then many people still had internet and access to various services. Services like MSN weren't working, unfortunately, but ICQ was probably due to routing. Since a lot of people still haven't switched to DSL, dial-up services were rotating connections by disconnecting users after a brief period.
For the first cut, I think they only had something like 20% bandwidth. I believe they had more this time...