UK looking to ban scalpers

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Capitalism +1, intrusive government -10
For the record, this is NOT directed at any specific person. When I say "you" it is a total generic term for anybody having a differing viewpoint as myself in this discussion.
Slippery slope if you support government legislating stuff like this. You may support it now for "personal" reasons, but there will come a day when you will be on the other side crying foul. Do I support the practice? Nope, total dick moves, but it is not something the government should be getting involved with. If you want to argue about Bots and such, that's a different topic all together, but still not within the purview of government. The onus is on the specific websites to decide what is acceptable and what is not. Free markets. Best way to stop it is just DON'T buy from them. Don't be all jelly because there are people out there WILLING to spend a crazy amount of money on a "this" or a "that". Lots of people are far more wealthy than others and that's just the way of the world. It is quite simple. Supply and demand. It is what makes the United States the greatest country on the planet. https://www.escapistmagazine.com/v2...strating-millions-could-the-law-end-scalping/ Pretty spot on, imho. Only change would be NO laws in reference to reselling. TOO arbitrary and like I said earlier, slippery slope. Feel free to disagree, but take emotion out of it and both myself and the article are right. BTW, Don't care what other lesser countries do to their "subjects". (BTW, Consoles suck anyway ;) )
 

LukeTbk

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Slippery slope if you support government legislating stuff like this
It is (I imagine concert ticket scalping being illegal in 15 of the state in USA and elsewhere was one of the first step, scalping laws on console would be in many place an extension of the already present scalping laws.

I think you are article mention, putting pressure on the resellers and the amazon/ebay of the world, the talk and menace of a law is probably a good way to put such pressure.

The onus is on the specific websites to decide what is acceptable and what is not.
It seem just impossible for a websites that would want to decide to not sell to scalpers to not sell to them too (and not sure how legal it would be for them)
 

exlink

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What should be done is banning the use of bots or the sale of products to bots. Level the playing field and it’ll already be 10x better than it is now.
 

MrGuvernment

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Ya, simple basic laws even that require businesses to take a minimum level of steps to prevent bots. From there they can do more, or not and if it is found somehow that bots bought them all (not sure how any could prove this either way?)
 

SticKx911

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As said above: The best way to stop scalpers is to stop buying from them.
I have no idea why government should be interested in this outside of tax collection. Maybe make a re-sale tax. Any item retail bought to be re sold as is gets taxed by x?
I’ve never bought any electronic hardware at release. It’s just not worth the stress to me. More power to anyone who does, but all the money in the world isn’t worth the effort to get a ps5 or whatever and the empty library for a few months earlier than the other peasants who didn’t have to wait in line, go store to store or over pay....and have more games to choose from with less bugs at time of purchase.
 

daglesj

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I would argue this is a way to protect against scalping for other items in the future like PPE etc. Picking items the public really give a damn about helps push that through and raises awareness.

Whether it's a good thing, dunno. I'd never be dumb enough to pay over retail for anything in the first place. These are just toys and I'm a grown man. I can wait.
 
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Dan_D

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Capitalism +1, intrusive government -10
For the record, this is NOT directed at any specific person. When I say "you" it is a total generic term for anybody having a differing viewpoint as myself in this discussion.
Slippery slope if you support government legislating stuff like this. You may support it now for "personal" reasons, but there will come a day when you will be on the other side crying foul. Do I support the practice? Nope, total dick moves, but it is not something the government should be getting involved with. If you want to argue about Bots and such, that's a different topic all together, but still not within the purview of government. The onus is on the specific websites to decide what is acceptable and what is not. Free markets. Best way to stop it is just DON'T buy from them. Don't be all jelly because there are people out there WILLING to spend a crazy amount of money on a "this" or a "that". Lots of people are far more wealthy than others and that's just the way of the world. It is quite simple. Supply and demand. It is what makes the United States the greatest country on the planet. https://www.escapistmagazine.com/v2...strating-millions-could-the-law-end-scalping/ Pretty spot on, imho. Only change would be NO laws in reference to reselling. TOO arbitrary and like I said earlier, slippery slope. Feel free to disagree, but take emotion out of it and both myself and the article are right. BTW, Don't care what other lesser countries do to their "subjects". (BTW, Consoles suck anyway ;) )

I hate the scalpers. However, I accept that it is a consequence of having a free market. I'd rather have to put up with scalpers than the alternative of an ever over reaching government.
 

Mega6

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Ya, simple basic laws even that require businesses to take a minimum level of steps to prevent bots. From there they can do more, or not and if it is found somehow that bots bought them all (not sure how any could prove this either way?)
The Government struggles with basic laws on Technology, a law to inhibit bots would look like what coming from clueless lawmakers? A disaster. Companies need to be pressured by their customer base to "do the right thing" and inhibit bots. How that should occur I'm not sure but laws are not the answer here.
 

HockeyJon

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You may support it now for "personal" reasons, but there will come a day when you will be on the other side crying foul.

I can tell you, with 100% certainty, that there will never be a day where I run a bot network, buy up all of the inventory for a hot product at retail stores, and then use that monopoly to try to take advantage of people by ripping them off.
 

HockeyJon

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I have no idea why government should be interested in this outside of tax collection. Maybe make a re-sale tax. Any item retail bought to be re sold as is gets taxed by x?

That law already exists. Value added taxes are supposed to be added every time a product is bought or sold, so yes, I’m sure that’s a primary reason why the government wants to get involved. They will gladly tax the same item three or four times. A lot of these transactions will take place in cash, which will subsequently not be declared, and value added taxes will subsequently not be paid. If scalpers had to sell on a platform with those taxes being paid, much like Ticketmaster created with StubHub, then the government would give it their blessing, as they did with StubHub.
 

Comixbooks

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Might as well ban scalpers as well.
Impossible because there are so many outlets besides ebay.
 

x509

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What should be done is banning the use of bots or the sale of products to bots. Level the playing field and it’ll already be 10x better than it is now.
I agree, but in the US we now have "do not call" registries, and as you well know, that law hasn't stopped all the phone spammers.

That said, I personally won't pay a scalper's price. Even if I have to wait several months. But one way the scalpers can get around a regulation is to charge a ton of money for "shipping and handling."
 
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pendragon1

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from the comments: "$60 million...well...that's why the Gov is getting involved...they want their cut"
 

Endgame

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A law for this would be a ridiculous government overreach. Just say no.
The problem here is no laws here eventually leads to complete market control by the scalpers as they buy all available inventory. Neither the retailers nor manufactures have any motivation to counter the scalpers as they sell out either way. The barriers to entry are also high enough no new competitor will be able to enter at volumes sufficient to break the scalpers control. Market manipulation is a bitch, and is why even free markets prevent monopolies.
 

csnv

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I can tell you, with 100% certainty, that there will never be a day where I run a bot network, buy up all of the inventory for a hot product at retail stores, and then use that monopoly to try to take advantage of people by ripping them off.

You may be young. You need to see the bigger picture is what he is saying, not saying that you may be scalper in the future. It is simply a free market, people will pay what they want to pay. Government has no business in this matter and if you are ok with the government overreaching, be careful what you wish for. Maybe looking that worse case scenario, do you want to live in China? where social score is dictating how you live your life..
 

Krenum

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I don't blame the scalpers. People are opportunistic. I blame the companies (Sony, AMD, Nvidia) for allowing it to happen. Give it to us strait, they don't care about gamer's like they say, all they care about is money. I'd rather them say that than give me a BS statement about "Caring for gamers" I know that's not true.
 

oldmanbal

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Check out the part regarding the AMD volume. Based on these numbers, Nvidia would be producing something like 40x the number of 3080 cards vs the 6800xt (3080: 10 million in scalper sales vs 6800xt 250k in scalper sales, both similar prices at around 180% over msrp). Talk about low volume. . .no wonder there are none to be found short of hitting the lottery online.​

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________​

RTX 30 Series:​


(Image credit: dev.to)
Looking back at the earliest date here, September 15th, the RTX 3080 was selling almost immediately on eBay for 180% of its normal value. As we move along into October of 2020, it became way worse, with the 3080 selling at 220% above its MSRP. Fortunately, as we got into November, things have somewhat stabilized, with the 3080s going back to selling at 180% above its MSRP. But that's still way more than the suggested price.


Much is the same with the RTX 3090. Many scalpers were selling the card at 220% of its MSRP right off the bat. Then things died down, with the card now selling for around the 140% mark. That's better than the RTX 3080 but still ridiculous pricing for the 3090.

But that's where the good news (if there was any) ends; Nvidia's RTX 3070 and RTX 3060 Ti are probably the worst offenders when it comes to eBay pricing. These are mid-ranged cards, and customers are looking at the price just as much as performance, compared to the 3080 and 3090, where buyers are more concerned about pure performance than general affordability. The 3070 started selling immediately at 180% of its MSRP on eBay and really hasn't gone down since then. The same goes for the RTX 3060 Ti, which sells at 165% of its targeted MSRP.

Overall according to Driscoll, scalpers have made $8,669,418 on RTX 3090s, $10,326,885 on RTX 3080s, $3,321,113 on RTX 3070s and $67,636 from RTX 3060 Tis. 3060 TI sales are low due to it being less than a month old.


AMD RX 6000 Series:​


AMD's RX 6000 series GPUs fare much worse than Nvidia's counterparts, probably due to their scarcity. The RX 6800 XT is being sold on eBay for 200% of its MSRP (on average) in November. As we entered December, however, that decreased to 180%.


At least AMD's RX 6800 does look much better at the moment. Starting at launch, it was selling for 180% of its MSRP, but it quickly shot down to 145% roughly a few days later and has stayed there ever since.

Scalpers managed to make $244,609 on RX 6800 XT's and $233,321 on RX 6800s over the past month. These figures really show how little volume there is with AMD's RDNA2 cards.
 

x509

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You may be young. You need to see the bigger picture is what he is saying, not saying that you may be scalper in the future. It is simply a free market, people will pay what they want to pay. Government has no business in this matter and if you are ok with the government overreaching, be careful what you wish for. Maybe looking that worse case scenario, do you want to live in China? where social score is dictating how you live your life..
And how do you know that scalpers don't operate in China? There are a lot of shady business practices there. That's why a lot of people will buy baby formula or prefer medicines made by non-Chinese companies.
 
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I can tell you, with 100% certainty, that there will never be a day where I run a bot network, buy up all of the inventory for a hot product at retail stores, and then use that monopoly to try to take advantage of people by ripping them off.
You are missing the point of my statement. I am not saying anyone will decided to be a scalper. What I AM saying is that there will be an issue, instance or specific situation that you support that others will be seeking relief by way of government intervention/legislation and then you will be upset or complain about the government overstepping their mandates based on what you feel is right. It always happens. Seems most people are fine with the government trampling on rights, until its THEIR right under the boot the, not so fun. People need to use logic, facts and intelligence to look at things that threaten liberty and not use raw emotion to make decisions. This country is great because of the Constitution and the restrictions IT places on Government NOT freedoms the Government grants us. We are BORN with rights and the Government works for US, not the other way around. If you don't agree, or this concept is foreign to you, please feel free to do some research as I am sure none of this has been taught in public schools for a VERY long time.

BTW, I am was very hesitant to post either of these comments because I was certain they would be met with an abundance of criticism and negative relies. I am very pleased that so far, that is not the case.
 

WorldExclusive

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I hate the scalpers. However, I accept that it is a consequence of having a free market. I'd rather have to put up with scalpers than the alternative of an ever over reaching government.
Exactly. What if the tables are turned, on hard times and I need some extra cash while having access to high demand goods. Let me cash in.
 
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It is (I imagine concert ticket scalping being illegal in 15 of the state in USA and elsewhere was one of the first step, scalping laws on console would be in many place an extension of the already present scalping laws.

I think you are article mention, putting pressure on the resellers and the amazon/ebay of the world, the talk and menace of a law is probably a good way to put such pressure.


It seem just impossible for a websites that would want to decide to not sell to scalpers to not sell to them too (and not sure how legal it would be for them)
I also do not agree with laws prohibiting ticket scalping. Just because there ARE these types of laws, doesn't make them good. There are soooo many instances of Gov abuse when it comes to regulation and legislation. TBH, it makes me quite angry and how I deal with it is to attempt to give logical reasons and arguments against these blatant infringements.
 

Endgame

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Exactly. What if the tables are turned, on hard times and I need some extra cash while having access to high demand goods. Let me cash in.
Profiteering / price gouging is not a desired behavior even in free markets - see laws that prevent, say, gas stations from dramatically increasing their prices immediately before or after a natural disaster. The same goes for coordinated price fixing, such as all of the gas stations in an area deciding they will charge, say, $8/gallon for gas. This is why you shouldn’t be able to just “cash in”.

Bot nets buying all available inventory of a good are demonstrating that they can manipulate markets, artificially increasing scarcity to increase price. With a little capital and coordination behind the bots, there is very little reason that this couldn’t be done indefinitely and prices held / fixed at whatever value the bot runners wanted. There is, after all, a maximum amount of foundry space that can be dedicated to video cards.

Why would this ever be desirable, especially when expanding beyond luxury goods like video cards and into things like medicine?
 

Blackstone

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I think it should be a federal criminal offense, with the punishment being repeatedly thwacked in the nards with a cricket bat.
 

vegeta535

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Profiteering / price gouging is not a desired behavior even in free markets - see laws that prevent, say, gas stations from dramatically increasing their prices immediately before or after a natural disaster. The same goes for coordinated price fixing, such as all of the gas stations in an area deciding they will charge, say, $8/gallon for gas. This is why you shouldn’t be able to just “cash in”.

Bot nets buying all available inventory of a good are demonstrating that they can manipulate markets, artificially increasing scarcity to increase price. With a little capital and coordination behind the bots, there is very little reason that this couldn’t be done indefinitely and prices held / fixed at whatever value the bot runners wanted. There is, after all, a maximum amount of foundry space that can be dedicated to video cards.

Why would this ever be desirable, especially when expanding beyond luxury goods like video cards and into things like medicine?
Yes on essential stuff it make sense. Not a luxury item like a GPU. No one life or lively hood is not in jeopardy cause they can't get the hottest new cpu/gpu/shoe.
 

c3k

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Profiteering / price gouging is not a desired behavior even in free markets - see laws that prevent, say, gas stations from dramatically increasing their prices immediately before or after a natural disaster. The same goes for coordinated price fixing, such as all of the gas stations in an area deciding they will charge, say, $8/gallon for gas. This is why you shouldn’t be able to just “cash in”.

Bot nets buying all available inventory of a good are demonstrating that they can manipulate markets, artificially increasing scarcity to increase price. With a little capital and coordination behind the bots, there is very little reason that this couldn’t be done indefinitely and prices held / fixed at whatever value the bot runners wanted. There is, after all, a maximum amount of foundry space that can be dedicated to video cards.

Why would this ever be desirable, especially when expanding beyond luxury goods like video cards and into things like medicine?
Actually, "profiteering/price gouging" is exactly what is called for during shortages. That's the free market balancing demand and supply.

Fleeing a hurricane? Need gas? Well, at $20 a gallon, are you going to buy more than you need? No. You're not. At excessively high prices, the demand will plummet.

Now, you can argue that "I need the gas to survive." Okay...sell something less valuable than your life. Ahh...you WANT the gas, not NEED the gas. See the difference?

In our case, I -want- some new video cards. I don't -need- them. Look at my sig: see how old/underpowered my GPUs are? Well, bots be damned: I'm not paying exorbitant prices for a commodity that I don't -need-. In the stats above, the 6800XT went from 200%, to 180% to 145% of the MSRP. I'll keep waiting.

The only role that government has in a free market is to ensure quality products (not what LEVEL of quality, just a "truth in advertising" function), and that there is no monopoly. (Monopolies do not allow a supply/demand market to operate.)

I get that you don't -like- the prices and lack of availability. Well...the trite answer of "go make your own fab facility and create your own GPU" is not valid. But, did you not notice that AMD has upped their game vs. Nvidia? Did you not notice the news about Intel getting into the GPU business? The market may not respond as rapidly as you'd -like-, but it is responding.

Now, if bots are -colluding- to artificially restrict the supply, then that would be a role for government.

I don't like it, but I do enjoy the fruits of this system. There is profit available to those who have the resources to create GPUs. That allows GPUs to be available to me and I don't have to create them myself. My option? I can create my own botnet, invest my money, and grab a bunch of 3090s/6900s and then sell them on ebay for a profit. Or, I can wait. I choose to wait.
 

Endgame

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Yes on essential stuff it make sense. Not a luxury item like a GPU. No one life or lively hood is not in jeopardy cause they can't get the hottest new cpu/gpu/shoe.
So you would be OK with the Corleones running bot net la and permanently price controlling and scalping electronics, cars, etc, as long as it isn’t medicine?
 

Endgame

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Actually, "profiteering/price gouging" is exactly what is called for during shortages. That's the free market balancing demand and supply.

Fleeing a hurricane? Need gas? Well, at $20 a gallon, are you going to buy more than you need? No. You're not. At excessively high prices, the demand will plummet.

Now, you can argue that "I need the gas to survive." Okay...sell something less valuable than your life. Ahh...you WANT the gas, not NEED the gas. See the difference?

In our case, I -want- some new video cards. I don't -need- them. Look at my sig: see how old/underpowered my GPUs are? Well, bots be damned: I'm not paying exorbitant prices for a commodity that I don't -need-. In the stats above, the 6800XT went from 200%, to 180% to 145% of the MSRP. I'll keep waiting.

The only role that government has in a free market is to ensure quality products (not what LEVEL of quality, just a "truth in advertising" function), and that there is no monopoly. (Monopolies do not allow a supply/demand market to operate.)

I get that you don't -like- the prices and lack of availability. Well...the trite answer of "go make your own fab facility and create your own GPU" is not valid. But, did you not notice that AMD has upped their game vs. Nvidia? Did you not notice the news about Intel getting into the GPU business? The market may not respond as rapidly as you'd -like-, but it is responding.

Now, if bots are -colluding- to artificially restrict the supply, then that would be a role for government.

I don't like it, but I do enjoy the fruits of this system. There is profit available to those who have the resources to create GPUs. That allows GPUs to be available to me and I don't have to create them myself. My option? I can create my own botnet, invest my money, and grab a bunch of 3090s/6900s and then sell them on ebay for a profit. Or, I can wait. I choose to wait.
You make the faulty assumption that the prices can’t be controlled forever. Additionally, Your end result is also functionally the same as communism. Empty shelves, but instead of them being empty due to poor centralized planning, they are empty because a minority bought all the supply and the market couldn’t respond to make more.

Governments need to step in when markets fail and to ensure functionality and competition in the markets. Don’t like it? Better hope the retailers step in soon and effectively self correct, or else you’re going to get it.
 

Gorankar

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I can tell you, with 100% certainty, that there will never be a day where I run a bot network, buy up all of the inventory for a hot product at retail stores, and then use that monopoly to try to take advantage of people by ripping them off.
No one was ripped off. They chose to purchase a luxury item at the price it was offered. They only got ripped off if they did not feel it was worth it, in which case they should not have purchased it. There are plenty of arguments that anti gouging/scalping laws make sense when we are talking about food, medicine, and things necessary to live, but it quickly turns into silly indignant screeching noises when you attempt to apply those arguments to luxury items.
I want a 6900xt, I will likely have to wait until February to get one at MSRP, I can wait. I will wait out of principal. I don't pay over MSRP, not ever. It is after all, the easiest way to get rid of scalpers. Do not buy from them. It's really hilarious what happens when everyone says screw you, not buying off of Ebay/Facebook market place/etc. over MSRP. The scalpers end up selling at MSRP or even below to get their money back b4 supply starts reaching equilibrium with demand.
But, since way too many are willing to buy at the higher price, we get scalpers.

If I was AMD/NV, and it was not illegal. I would get together, increase our MSRP by $20-50 over what we actually intend, build a reasonable stockpile of goods that approaches close to actual expected demand, then release just 10-15% of it into the market. Let the scalpers buy it all up, then release the other 90% a week or two later and reduce MSRP by $20-50 to ensure the scalpers all lost money. Too bad that is actually illegal.
 
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Governments need to step in when markets fail and to ensure functionality and competition in the markets. Don’t like it? Better hope the retailers step in soon and effectively self correct, or else you’re going to get it.
No, 100% wrong in a free market. In a free market, there will always be self correction. Will it benefit everyone? Probably not. Will it correct quickly? Well, sometimes yes, sometimes no, but if allowed to remain unencumbered by government and outside force of law, if certainly will correct. As others have stated here, simple fix. REFUSE to buy from scalpers or any entity involved in unfavorable commerce. People have no sense of personal responsibility anymore. They EXPECT others to step in on their behalf and "fix" the preceived wrongs. NOT the role of the United States Government, set forth in our Constitution. If you believe it should be, work to change it. It is your right. Use other countries as benchmarks if you wish, but keep in mind, NONE of them even have the right to free speech which we all are now engaging in. NO OTHER Country has as much FREEDOM as ours. PERIOD.
 

Liver

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This reminds me of making gambling illegal, however the government can create and sell lottery tickets. They are the ONLY one that can create and sell lottery tickets.

This is in the USA.
 

LukeTbk

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I also do not agree with laws prohibiting ticket scalping. Just because there ARE these types of laws, doesn't make them good. There are soooo many instances of Gov abuse when it comes to regulation and legislation. TBH, it makes me quite angry and how I deal with it is to attempt to give logical reasons and arguments against these blatant infringements.
Yes I would have imagined that, I was giving credence to your slippery slope argument, it start with something a larger portion agree like concert ticket and it end up not being able to sell a house before having living in it 3 year's or more than 10% the purchased price tag, I think the Canadian government looked at the luxury italian glasses price gouging anti-competitive market at some point and made it illegal to have 3 year's contract on smartphone .
Actually, "profiteering/price gouging" is exactly what is called for during shortages. That's the free market balancing demand and supply.
This, if NVIDIA/AMD could sell them at those price, it could help them make more (and pay planes shipping), but that is not what is happening here, the scalper price gouging help in no way supply increase (it is not like people living 200 miles away bringing gaz to sell in a region with a shortage and doing so only because they can charge a lot).
 

AltTabbins

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It’s not up to the government to stop scalpers. If we are talking about consoles and gpu’s, the fault falls directly on the retailers. Pre order queues with basic anti bot measures would eliminate the issue all together. There’s a huge difference between these two mentalities -

“The 3080 sold out again in seconds. I don’t know if I will ever be able to get one”

and

“I placed a preorder for a 3080. It’s not slated to ship for a few weeks but I’ll at least get one. Who knows maybe it will come sooner”.

If people were able to preorder or order while it’s out of stock, it would make scalping a lot less appealing. It would probably be enough to just end it.
 

Lith1um

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No one was ripped off. They chose to purchase a luxury item at the price it was offered. They only got ripped off if they did not feel it was worth it, in which case they should not have purchased it. There are plenty of arguments that anti gouging/scalping laws make sense when we are talking about food, medicine, and things necessary to live, but it quickly turns into silly indignant screeching noises when you attempt to apply those arguments to luxury items.
I want a 6900xt, I will likely have to wait until February to get one at MSRP, I can wait. I will wait out of principal. I don't pay over MSRP, not ever. It is after all, the easiest way to get rid of scalpers. Do not buy from them. It's really hilarious what happens when everyone says screw you, not buying off of Ebay/Facebook market place/etc. over MSRP. The scalpers end up selling at MSRP or even below to get their money back b4 supply starts reaching equilibrium with demand.
But, since way too many are willing to buy at the higher price, we get scalpers.

If I was AMD/NV, and it was not illegal. I would get together, increase our MSRP by $20-50 over what we actually intend, build a reasonable stockpile of goods that approaches close to actual expected demand, then release just 10-15% of it into the market. Let the scalpers buy it all up, then release the other 90% a week or two later and reduce MSRP by $20-50 to ensure the scalpers all lost money. Too bad that is actually illegal.
I feel the same way about health care, I feel that (in the world / nation I want to live in) it should be a human right. /But the moment you start talking about single payer, the screech on both sides of the political isles goes full volume. //In a nation where people go bankrupt over one medical bill, where people die every day from lack of coverage, and meds are higher than giraffe coochie.
 

learners permit

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How many of these groups do you suppose are paying income tax on reselling these devices? The federal government wants their piece of this pie and they will get it one way or the other and I really hope they do.
 

c3k

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
2,263
I feel the same way about health care, I feel that (in the world / nation I want to live in) it should be a human right. /But the moment you start talking about single payer, the screech on both sides of the political isles goes full volume. //In a nation where people go bankrupt over one medical bill, where people die every day from lack of coverage, and meds are higher than giraffe coochie.
Rights.

If health care is a human "right", then the healthcare workers are...what? Forced to work for you? Or, everyone else has to work for you and contribute to your healthcare costs?

That's a not a right: that's servitude.
 
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