Ubi DRM: Their side of the story

[Q-BZ]

Piracy is going to happen whether or not there's DRM. I'd guess that it's going to be worse because of this DRM.

It's going to definitely be worse. It'll be a spite job and a personal point of "pride" to prove something for pirates to hack and beat this thing.

 

[WabeWalker]

Those key fobs are usually not by sattelite (unless you're just talking about a time-sync with a central server). They're a psuedo random number generator, to know the next number you'd have to know:
The algorithm used to generate the next number.
whatever the initialization vector for that particulr fob is.
and how many numbers it's generated.
If the pseudo random algorithm is good (that is each bit in each key is highly random, and not predictable from previous keys), it's nearly impossible to reliably guess the next value in the sequence.

Now if you sat a competent hacker down at the authorization server and have him/her the admin/root password, it would be rather simple to break. Just insert yourself somewhere in the process so that you don't need to know the next key, you just alter the system to accept whatever you've entered.
This is the basic problem of why DRM is so easily broken time after time. The user doesn't have to crack cryptographically strong authentication, they just have to avoid doing the authentication all together.
I'm sure Ubi (or whoever actually wrote it) is going to great lengths to randomize where in memory the code to do the authentication is loaded, how those packets look on the network, where they're sent from and to. But in the end, it's all just bytes on the user's PC, and as soon as somebody learns where they can alter a few bytes in exe to say 'return true' instead of 'return the authentication result', it's all broken.

Personally, I hope Ubi fails on this.. not that it's broken, but that it really hurts sales. This system, as it is being presented so far is a major disservice to paying customers.

Just as I was typing this, my cable modem reset...

Our fobs are synched, and can be deactivated at any time, so it's not just some device that generates numbers randomly. I can use a key belonging to a colleague and he can use mine - it doesn't matter. I also have to login and enter my password, of course. If you get the number wrong after your third try then you won't even be able to attempt to login from where you are. It's pretty secure. We've had this for ten years and nobody has ever gotten into our system.

Nevertheless, we're getting away from the discussion here. I have my doubts that Ubisoft has done anything remotely like this.

But to argue your point, Ubisoft doesn't really have a whole lot to lose here with regards to 'sales'. I mean, Assassin's Creed, for the PC, just didn't turn a profit for them - at least not a big enough profit for them to continue to develop for the PC. If Assassin's Creed 2 somehow ends up being pirated the way the first game was, then the writing is on the wall: that'll be the end of PC development for Ubisoft.

It baffles me why you're hoping this will fail? I just don't get that at all?

Given the choice between playing Assassin's Creed 2 on the PC with this DRM, and not being able to play it at all (or having to play on the 360 - I wouldn't even want to play this game on the 360), I'd rather take this.

Yeah, I'll admit that when I bought Rise Of Flight, and found out AFTER I had installed the game that I had to create an account, and that I'd have to be connected to the net at all times, I was pretty pissed off. In practice, it's been a non-issue. Believe it or not, but I even forget that it's there.

I'll agree though that this thread is starting to run its course. Most of us seem pretty dead set in our beliefs here. All I know for certain is that I'll be buying this game on day one - that I do know.

I'll report back about my experiences, and hope that nobody else will have had the game for a week already.

 

[FreiDOg]

Our fobs are synched, and can be deactivated at any time, so it's not just some device that generates numbers randomly. I can use a key belonging to a colleague and he can use mine - it doesn't matter. I also have to login and enter my password, of course. If you get the number wrong after your third try then you won't even be able to attempt to login from where you are. It's pretty secure. We've had this for ten years and nobody has ever gotten into our system.

Nevertheless, we're getting away from the discussion here. I have my doubts that Ubisoft has done anything remotely like this.

That was sort of my point. Ubi-soft can not have implemented anything like your fob.
The fob does not rely on the trustworthiness of the client to authorize anything. Permitting or denying your connection to work is entirely out of your computer's hands. That's not possible when you have the game you want to run installed on your local PC

But to argue your point, Ubisoft doesn't really have a whole lot to lose here with regards to 'sales'. I mean, Assassin's Creed, for the PC, just didn't turn a profit for them - at least not a big enough profit for them to continue to develop for the PC. If Assassin's Creed 2 somehow ends up being pirated the way the first game was, then the writing is on the wall: that'll be the end of PC development for Ubisoft.

It baffles me why you're hoping this will fail? I just don't get that at all?

Because I have a laptop, with Steam installed. No huge games, but some good time syncs that I play when I travel. I don't have a 3G card and wifi can be spotty, non-existent or not free.
Ubi is telling me I can't play their games like that. I've bought the game, installed it, authorized it, and they want to tell me I can't play it? That's not an acceptable terms of service for me.

And to be honest, even if I weren't in a situation where I'm likely to not have internet on a PC for at least a few days here and there; I find the premise that anyone without an internet connection is a pirate to be objectionable. Particularly when there are plenty of DRM mechanisms, in Steam, in Battle.Net in various other services that provide a much more flexible means of re-authenticating games that seem to work reasonably well.

Given the choice between playing Assassin's Creed 2 on the PC with this DRM, and not being able to play it at all (or having to play on the 360 - I wouldn't even want to play this game on the 360), I'd rather take this.

Yeah, I'll admit that when I bought Rise Of Flight, and found out AFTER I had installed the game that I had to create an account, and that I'd have to be connected to the net at all times, I was pretty pissed off. In practice, it's been a non-issue. Believe it or not, but I even forget that it's there.

I'll agree though that this thread is starting to run its course. Most of us seem pretty dead set in our beliefs here. All I know for certain is that I'll be buying this game on day one - that I do know.

I'll report back about my experiences, and hope that nobody else will have had the game for a week already.

And that's fine. I'm not going to disparage you for accepting this if it hasn't had a legitimate impact on how you play. I think you may go back to being pissed at UbiSoft if you're internet takes a few days vacation and you're left not able to play a game you own.

EDIT
If it works fine for you, there's no reason for you be upset about it. But I assure you, it won't work well for a lot of people.

 

[CrimandEvil]

Wow. WTF happened now that Wabe is so rational and agreeable?!?!

But to argue your point, Ubisoft doesn't really have a whole lot to lose here with regards to 'sales'. I mean, Assassin's Creed, for the PC, just didn't turn a profit for them - at least not a big enough profit for them to continue to develop for the PC. If Assassin's Creed 2 somehow ends up being pirated the way the first game was, then the writing is on the wall: that'll be the end of PC development for Ubisoft.

That's a bald face lie. First off, if it didn't make enough of a profit for Ubi then Ubi wouldn't have continued to build a PC version of AC2. Secondly, AC sold very, very well. The sale of the PC version never matters when it comes to multi platform games since it's always expected that the console version will sell much, much more. The sales of the console version more then make up for any potential low sales of the PC version or even another console version. That's why more and more games are multi platformed.

From Wiki on AC's sale's numbers:

Sales for Assassin's Creed were unexpectedly high according to the publisher. An official press release from Ubisoft stated:

Assassin's Creed has greatly outstripped Ubisoft's sales expectations and currently ranks among the top two or three best-selling games for the PlayStation 3 computer entertainment system and Xbox 360 video game and entertainment system in the vast majority of geographical regions. In less than four weeks Assassin's Creed recorded more than two and a half million units in sell-through sales worldwide, and is the fastest-selling new video game intellectual property ever in the U.S. Consequently, Ubisoft now forecasts that it will sell a minimum of five million units of the game in 2007–08 compared with its previous estimate of approximately three million.

So yeah, what you're saying is a load of shit.

It baffles me why you're hoping this will fail? I just don't get that at all?

Because it's dumb and anti consumer. If anything this is a rootkit that I will be forced to install if I want to play this game. Thanks Ubi for making me install a rootkit! Ugh.

Given the choice between playing Assassin's Creed 2 on the PC with this DRM, and not being able to play it at all (or having to play on the 360 - I wouldn't even want to play this game on the 360), I'd rather take this.

I'd rather not play it at all. If any other Industry treated it's customers like they were criminals then they deserve what they get. If the gaming industry wants to move forward with such blatantly anti-consumer DRM like this then they deserve to join the MPAA and the RIAA.

 

[WabeWalker]

If I can't play Assassin's Creed 2 because I can't connect via the setup I presently have with my desktop PC then I'll completely change my mind about this.

If Assassin's Creed 2 gets pirated before I play the game myself then I'll completely change my mind about this.

In two weeks we'll know.

 

[SS_Wehrwolf]

Your argument doesn't measure up.

First month of sales for Assassin's Creed on the 360 = 2.5 million copies.
First month of sales for Assassin's Creed on the PC = 40,000 copies.

Why can you not see the humongous discrepancy there? Don't tell me that of the 700,000 people who pirated Assassin's Creed in the first month, only 2000 of them would have bought the game.

We can see from the 360 numbers that that absolutely would not have been the case? Who do you work for? Your logic skills suck.

Where the hell did i go wrong to get this reply? Wasnt the entire point to show how easily numbers could be misused to begin with, and yet it degenerates into his usual tirade of statistics?

This is why you will never.. EVER.. hear me use liberal terms like special needs... This guys just plain retarded. But vehemently so! rofl

 

[jubalskeiki]

According to you guys, it's not a very smart thing to release a PC version of a game months after the release of the console version, since, obviously, the game won't sell very many copies. Yeah, well I guess we're going to have to add Rockstar Games to the Stupid-Developers-Who-Don't-Listen-To-The-Members-Of-The-Hardforum list, because as we all plainly know, GTA 4 was released on the PC months after being released for the 360.

According to you guys, everyone should have already played GTA 4, since it had already been released on the 360. Right!

Wrong.

Your logic has failed you once again. For whatever reasons (and we can leave this for another debate) GTA 4 didn't take the same bloodbath that Assassin's Creed did. The point here is a simple one: if a PC game is going to be released months after the release of its console counterpart, then, yes, of course the sales for the PC version will be diminished, but not to the point where the company won't be able to turn a profit.

Ubisoft got burned by the pirates. Burned by them. Some of you people are so in denial about this that it makes me want to pass out.

Maybe they did. One huge difference between AC and GTA4 is that 4. I just found out Civ 5 is coming out this year. I haven't really heard much about it, but I'll probably buy it even without too much info about it because I am a fan of the series. GTA has that sort of following, people who will buy the game just because it is a GTA game. AC doesn't have that. AC was a new game and they did a new thing. It didn't have people who were like "well I played the first 3 games and really liked them, so...I've heard some bad reviews of this game, but who cares it's AC...it has to be great". Games that are mediocre but have a following will sell more copies (most likely) than a mediocre game that doesn't. I guess I'd be curious of the 2.5m people who bought it for xbox360 would have bought a PC copy instead were it available. If I have the game already on the xbox, it would have to be either a truly excellent game that I really felt like supporting and saying "yes, like this, need maor" or a game that has a really strong history on the PC.

 

[Forceman]

If Assassin's Creed 2 gets pirated before I play the game myself then I'll completely change my mind about this.

In two weeks we'll know.

My guess is we'll know in less than two weeks, when a pre-release cracked version finds its way into the wild.

 

[WabeWalker]

Where the hell did i go wrong to get this reply? Wasnt the entire point to show how easily numbers could be misused to begin with, and yet it degenerates into his usual tirade of statistics?

This is why you will never.. EVER.. hear me use liberal terms like special needs... This guys just plain retarded. But vehemently so! rofl

Okay, first of all, that's a personal attack on me, and isn't really called for. But I actually did laugh out loud when I read that, for what should be the obvious reason.

"This guys just plain retarded."

That's a classic, man.

 

[WabeWalker]

My guess is we'll know in less than two weeks, when a pre-release cracked version finds its way into the wild.

Yeah, if that happens, then obviously I would have to change my stance. No question about it. The whole point of this is to prevent the game from being pirated right out of the gate. No question about it.

 

[Derangel]

Yeah, if that happens, then obviously I would have to change my stance. No question about it. The whole point of this is to prevent the game from being pirated right out of the gate. No question about it.

I'll agree with you on that point. Zero Day piracy prevention is a big thing.

 

[Tudz]

It baffles me why you're hoping this will fail? I just don't get that at all?

Because it'll severly limit playability if you have a bad connection. I'm against any sort of DRM that limits playability. This will.

Given the choice between playing Assassin's Creed 2 on the PC with this DRM, and not being able to play it at all (or having to play on the 360 - I wouldn't even want to play this game on the 360), I'd rather take this.

Given the choice between no AC2, AC2 with this DRM and AC2 on Xbox, I'd probably take AC2 on Xbox (if I owned one), failing that I'll take no AC2.

 

[WabeWalker]

Wow. Just wow.

Over at the Steam forums they're being inundated with posts from people who aren't even debating about this issue - huge numbers of people are just openly stating that they're pirates, and that this isn't going to stop them. They're blatantly challenging 'Ubicrap', and saying that if they have to wait another month to get this game (free) then that's what they'll do, just wait it out.

I mean, just... wow.

NOTHING could've proved the point I was trying to make about how badly Assassin's Creed was pirated more than what's happening over there. I'm almost sick to my stomach after having read through that crap.

You know, my 16 year old niece has never bought a music CD in her entire life - she just feels that she's entitled to free music. What's happened here? Is there a new generation of young people out there who just believe that PC games are free? Is that what's happening here?

I am shocked... I mean, I am genuinely shocked at what I've just finished reading... I honestly had no idea that the situation was THIS bad.

 

[CrimandEvil]

Post a link or you're just bloviating.
.

 

[WabeWalker]

Post a link to the entire forum?

 

[Deleted member 174368]

Wow. Just wow.

Over at the Steam forums they're being inundated with posts from people who aren't even debating about this issue - huge numbers of people are just openly stating that they're pirates, and that this isn't going to stop them. They're blatantly challenging 'Ubicrap', and saying that if they have to wait another month to get this game (free) then that's what they'll do, just wait it out.

I mean, just... wow.

NOTHING could've proved the point I was trying to make about how badly Assassin's Creed was pirated more than what's happening over there. I'm almost sick to my stomach after having read through that crap.

You know, my 16 year old niece has never bought a music CD in her entire life - she just feels that she's entitled to free music. What's happened here? Is there a new generation of young people out there who just believe that PC games are free? Is that what's happening here?

I am shocked... I mean, I am genuinely shocked at what I've just finished reading... I honestly had no idea that the situation was THIS bad.

...are you new to the internet?

 

[WabeWalker]

...are you new to the internet?

I've never seen such an attitude of entitlement as this before - it's exactly the same attitude my young niece has about music... when I suggested that she start buying her music she just walked away and stopped talking to me.

Maybe I just haven't been spending time at the right forums. I tend to post at places where moderators don't allow people to post openly that they're pirates, and are proud of it. I'm baffled as to why Steam is allowing that to happen?

 

[defiant007]

Assassin's Creed, according to Ubisoft, sold 40,000 copies during its first month on the PC (and took a bloodbath). According to Ubisoft, 2.5 million copies were sold during the first month for the 360. According to you guys Ubisoft should have expected this, since, as you guys have stated many times now, the PC version was released long after the 360 version.

Misstating facts yet again. Read my post:

http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1035360230&postcount=280

If you don't understand, read it again...

 

[WabeWalker]

Defiant, I don't need to re-read what I've already read. I disagree with every point you make. I've already said why. People here get angry that I repeat myself. There's no need for me to write anything more about this.

 

[WabeWalker]

Also, there's talk now that even the save-game files will be encrypted.

So....

1) You'll need an Ubisoft account.
2) Authentication checks will be happening constantly.
3) Save games will be encrypted and decrypted at Ubisoft's website, meaning that even if somebody can figure out a way to bypass 1) and 2) they won't be able to save their progress in the game.

This is starting to look like it might actually work?

 

[EvilNando]

keep dreaming...

its just a matter of time this will get cracked into oblivion since all the content is right there at the client machine

even online based games such a world of warcraft are been played by pirates

this wont change shit, get real

 

[defiant007]

Defiant, I don't need to re-read what I've already read. I disagree with every point you make. I've already said why. People here get angry that I repeat myself. There's no need for me to write anything more about this.

Well you obviously need to work on your reading comprehension skills, because part of that post specifically corrects misinformation which you continue to disseminate....specifically that statistic you rely upon for x360 sales also includes sales of the ps3 version over a 4 week period.

 

[Derfman]

I agree, the only thing this will do is slow down the pirating community. I buy every game I play on the PC, but it doesn't make me blind to the fact that there are some very genius people within the game cracking community and to them this is a challenge to their intelligence if nothing else.

One thing in life my father taught me, "Son, no matter how good you become at something, there will always be someone out there who is or will eventually be better than you."

Nothing is uncrackable, this could possibly be the Titanic of DRM thus far.

 

[sparks]

whats really sad is the only ones not having to mess with all this BS is the hackers.

 

[Q-BZ]

Well you obviously need to work on your reading comprehension skills, because part of that post specifically corrects misinformation which you continue to disseminate....specifically that statistic you rely upon for x360 sales also includes sales of the ps3 version over a 4 week period.

There isn't any reading involved. It's called flat out ignoring.

The conversation, such as it is, can't and never will advance one inch as consequence and it hasn't.

I'm surprised more people haven't figured that out this far along in this bad-time-loop-episode-out-of-Star Trek thread.

 

[GreenMonkey]

Also, there's talk now that even the save-game files will be encrypted.

So....

1) You'll need an Ubisoft account.
2) Authentication checks will be happening constantly.
3) Save games will be encrypted and decrypted at Ubisoft's website, meaning that even if somebody can figure out a way to bypass 1) and 2) they won't be able to save their progress in the game.

This is starting to look like it might actually work?

It'll work alright. Work at gettng me not to buy it.

They could release one of my favorite games like this...Civ 5...Dragon Quest 9...Dragon Age 2... for that matter, my dream titles like Baldur's Gate III, Betrayal at Krondor remake, a Master of Magic sequel.. (LOL)..I would never buy a game set up with a scheme like this. Never. I felt the same way about the 3-activations scheme.

The day that gaming on consoles or PCs move on to this level of B.S. I'll go back to books and DVDs. Got plenty of backlog there anyway.

 

[Stardusted]

My main gaming rig is never connected to the internet. I play mostly single player games and for the multiplayer ones I use another rig. Plus, wireless internet just ISNT very reliable. I experience several disconnects during the day.

Obviously I won't buy the game, not to revenge ubisoft, they decide for them, and act. But their decisions do not bond well with my needs so...

 

[Spewn]

Nothing is uncrackable, this could possibly be the Titanic of DRM thus far.

The worst part will be when/if an internal copy hits the scene before release day. Harder to crack? Maybe not if you've got someone who works for Ubisoft on your side. It happens all the time, heh.

 

[eggrock]

The online saved games sound like a pain, and something that could potentially limit game design (I'm thinking of games like The Witcher with many large save game files.)

Otherwise, so be it. Keep the DRM coming and eventually it will be a big enough pain in the ass that it will prevent most pirates from 'trying' games that the rest of us pay for. I'm tired of hearing self entitled kiddies trying to justify their BS.

I think I'll buy an Ubisoft game in support of DRM.

 

[Q-BZ]

The online saved games sound like a pain, and something that could potentially limit game design (I'm thinking of games like The Witcher with many large save game files.)

You can count on it.

Otherwise, so be it.

Dumb.

Keep the DRM coming and eventually it will be a big enough pain in the ass that it will prevent most pirates from 'trying' games that the rest of us pay for.

What do you base this expectation on? It can't be anything in actual reality.


The "ramp up the DRM" concept has been a miserable failure in and out of gaming and has encouraged MORE piracy, not less, for a number of reasons ranging from spite to pride to crack something new on through.

I'm tired of hearing self entitled kiddies trying to justify their BS.

On this I agree with you.

I think I'll buy an Ubisoft game in support of DRM.

Just another troll post in the end I guess.

 

[Carl]

Otherwise, so be it. Keep the DRM coming and eventually it will be a big enough pain in the ass that it will prevent most pirates from 'trying' games that the rest of us pay for. I'm tired of hearing self entitled kiddies trying to justify their BS.

It really wont stop them at all.

I think I'll buy an Ubisoft game in support of DRM.

I hope you and wabe have fun

 

[demingo]

I wonder when publishers will realize that they just try to charge too much for videogames?

I hoped Steam would prove that point, but people turn a blind eye to it. I have bought exactly 0 games at retail or full price online in the last year. I have bought about 30 games last year from he various Steam sales (including Assasins Creed for $5 from steam).

Personally, $29.99 is the max I'll pay for game at release if I really want it. Usually $10-15 is my limit. Needless to say, I dont but a lot of games day 1. But my collection is huge thanks to Steam sales. Drop the price, sell more copies.

At $5-15 its not even worth pirating something when you can own it legit so cheaply. Beat the pirates on value, not with DRM that just doesnt work.

 

[Q-BZ]

I wonder when publishers will realize that they just try to charge too much for videogames?

I hoped Steam would prove that point, but people turn a blind eye to it. I have bought exactly 0 games at retail or full price online in the last year. I have bought about 30 games last year from he various Steam sales (including Assasins Creed for $5 from steam).

Personally, $29.99 is the max I'll pay for game at release if I really want it. Usually $10-15 is my limit. Needless to say, I dont but a lot of games day 1. But my collection is huge thanks to Steam sales. Drop the price, sell more copies.

At $5-15 its not even worth pirating something when you can own it legit so cheaply. Beat the pirates on value, not with DRM that just doesnt work.

If you adjust for inflation and all that, the game pricing isn't the worst thing in the world vs. some other things but I know what you're saying.

Once upon a time several years back, before the 360 and PS3 were out if I recall correctly, I remember all this buzz in the gaming press about talk about LOWERING game prices.

Of course that never happened. The exact opposite happened instead.

Now $60 a pop has been common for console games and now increasingly PC games. Oh well, if you adjust for inflation, I guess that's still better than some N64 cartridges, 3DO, and Neo-Geo games.

 

[eggrock]

What do you base this expectation on? It can't be anything in actual reality.

A whole lot of things, actually. The push now is towards provider-based services but the bandwidth isn't there (in the U.S.) for now. I can see a system of access similar to what DirecTV does, with some sort of programmable dongle that is updated frequently to frustrate attempts to crack it.

Vista/Win 7 and hardware DRM may play a part.

Hopefully there are more friendly (or less obtrusive) efforts like Steam which push competition and result in deals to users, but that hasn't always proven effective (World of Goo and HL2 as examples.) Overall, Steam has been the best of the bunch.

Regardless, I don't see us with no-cd, no DRM games in the future, or potentially anything other than a 3d/scripting engine installed locally and content served from the publisher.

Just another troll post in the end I guess.

Maybe the last bit, just a little. Ubisoft doesn't have anything out I want. I'm sure as hell going to buy games I want to play, DRM or no.

 

[Q-BZ]

Ubisoft doesn't have anything out I want. I'm sure as hell going to buy games I want to play, DRM or no.

I will, too, and I do always when the DRM doesn't get in my way, doesn't punish me, doesn't hamper me, and doesn't put crap on my system. No more. No less.

It is pretty stupid that the pirates often have a nicer, more polished, more refined, less headache inducing, and all around easier times of it than the legit end user isn't it?

^^
Even Wabe can't deny that...or will he? Probably just ignore that, too. Again.


We've seen some people say it and I'll say it:

Each person has their own breaking point where they simply say: Why bother doing it the right way if I'm going to get punished for it anyways and perceived as criminal or potential criminal anyways and treated like one? I may as well have something to show for it. I may as well take the easy way out and have less headaches to show for it.

That's the slippery slope and backlash potential that exists out there.

 

[Oldie]

Sorry guys, tired of having to babysit this thread.