U.S. Adds 200 EV Charging Stations in April

sfsuphysics

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
15,103
I am going to call bull on the OP stats. In the Interior of Alaska most every single parking spot has a standard 120V/30A outlet that you can plug stuff in all day long. If I had to estimate I'd say that there are approximately 30k parking spaces with plug-ins.

Then again, doesn't surprise me that they don't count Alaska as being part of the U.S., happens all the time.

Aren't those plugs for engine block heaters though? 120V really is too slow for any significant charging.
 

kbrickley

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
7,514
I had this argument with someone about this as well. The person did not even realize that almost 70% of our electricity is still from coal.

According the government link I provided earlier only 30% of our power comes from coal (unless you are in China ;) ) ... Natural gas is now the dominant power source for the USA because of the low price and ready supply and it is much easier from a regulatory standpoint and the NIMBY factor associated with coal and nuclear :cool:
 

Ocean

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Messages
4,927
it was always explained to me that electricity mass generated centrally and then transmitted was more efficient than having millions of separate engines.

is this true?

but yeah, id rather have the pollution be generated somewhere other than where i live.
 

Amaroth

Gawd
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
673
I just picked a random zip code in Houston and I can see that there's at least 30-50 stations in the Houston metro. Would you may have to modify your route if you are the type that drive 100 miles a day? yes, but stop assuming that since you haven't seen any obvious chargers then you can't drive a 'normal' distance, but since you said it's being shoved down your throat I know where you got your misinformation from. http://www.afdc.energy.gov/locator/...e&ev_dc_fast=true&radius=true&radius_miles=50

Late getting back to this thread but my point still proves correct in my opinion. You should look at the stations that exist in your link. A large portion of them are car dealerships. The others are very niche places. Khols? A whole foods here and there. I'm speaking in regards to my city which I have lived all over for the last 30 years. A drive into houston for work is 25 miles. It can take anywhere between 40mins to well over an hour depending on traffic. Houston is a very large city in terms of geography, and we don't have the large urban residential demographics that other cities do. We are a city that commute to work from the suburbs. This is why public transit on a large scale isn't viable. We have park n rides, public buses, and commuter rail within the city. We have a all of the above approach. Electric cars just aren't viable for people living in the suburbs who commute to work in MY city. As the technology gets better that can and will change. If you think the new age tech isn't being shoved down societies throat, then I feel like you aren't paying attention. The government is loaning tons of money to green jobs. They have subsidized and funded a ridiculous amount of money to farmers for ethanol. If you don't believe me just look at the i-40 corridor through Arkansas. Brand new silos with company banners promoting ethanol EVERYWHERE. This was 3yrs ago so they are newish now. The new standards on ethanol as well, a 15% blend. There are other examples, but I want to stay on topic. This isn't a party line thing. This is quality of life. I have no problem adopting new technology. I think the energy saving capabilities we have on houses now is fantastic. To force me into buying a product that costs me more money, when my salary hasn't gone up to compensate is a no win situation. What am I suppose to do with the electric car when I can't go visit the in-laws, or the batteries need replaced? All I was trying to point out is that in my area it isn't over that hump yet, and instead of trying to promote that it is, continue r&d.
 

Kaitian

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
4,870
According the government link I provided earlier only 30% of our power comes from coal (unless you are in China ;) ) ... Natural gas is now the dominant power source for the USA because of the low price and ready supply and it is much easier from a regulatory standpoint and the NIMBY factor associated with coal and nuclear :cool:

http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_es1a

A bit higher than you think. It's around 40%. Coal is going up whereas gas is going down.
 

sfsuphysics

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
15,103
it was always explained to me that electricity mass generated centrally and then transmitted was more efficient than having millions of separate engines.

is this true?
Honestly, I have never found any decent arguments that supports either side. Very often both sides leave out key details like one might say "Do you see the damage mining for coal does..." ignoring how gasoline just comes out of a spigot for easy use... or saying centrally powered energy is cheaper and cleaner, where as not actually providing any actual data as to how it's cleaner considering we definitely put emission standards on cars.


but yeah, id rather have the pollution be generated somewhere other than where i live.
Ain't that the truth, sometimes you wonder with all this arguing against electric vehicles if they haven't actually experienced massive smog due to auto exhaust, either Los Angeles on a summer day... which is relatively clean compared to many other large cities around the world. Mexico City had to implement days you are allowed to drive your car, Rome is filty as fuck, in Taipei if you are wearing a white shirt at the airport going out to catch a cab will turn your shirt to a dingy greyish white there's so much damn pollution.

Everyone has in one way or another NIMBY fever, but most probably haven't actually experienced first hand how bad it can be one way or another. I'll admit I've never been to any of those East coast cities where coal is blaring out of smoke stacks, but I have seen first hand what car (and unregulated scooter/moped) emissions can do.
 

JohnleMVP

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
May 20, 2001
Messages
5,255
it was always explained to me that electricity mass generated centrally and then transmitted was more efficient than having millions of separate engines.

is this true?

but yeah, id rather have the pollution be generated somewhere other than where i live.

The theory is true. A $100 million power plant will be much more efficient than a $3000 engine. According to Wikipedia the average internal combustion engines are only about 18-20% efficient. (the source is a University ME class)

However you also have to consider the grid and how much power is lost. Then there are batteries, which aren't exactly made of daisy's and buttercups. Not that oil drilling is clean either.

Personally I am happy that electric cars are becoming a viable option. More electric cars means less dependency on foreign oil and cheaper prices at the pump.
 

kac77

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
2,720
I had this argument with someone about this as well. The person did not even realize that almost 70% of our electricity is still from coal.

That was the case like 20 years go. But things are different. Not mind blowingly different but 70% of US energy isn't produced by coal. Here's the current breakdown for 2011.

Coal 42%
Natural Gas 25%
Nuclear 19%
Hydropower 8%
Other Renewable 5%
Biomass 1.38%
Geothermal 0.41%
Solar 0.04%
Wind 2.92%

Petroleum 1%
 

kac77

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
2,720
That Natural Gas number by the way is the largest change in the chart. It will eventually take over coal for the US. It may be that we have more natural gas than coal.
 

Jagger100

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
Messages
7,687
That Natural Gas number by the way is the largest change in the chart. It will eventually take over coal for the US. It may be that we have more natural gas than coal.

We are the Saudi Arabia of natural gas. Which is why suddenly 'fracking' which we've been doing for over 60 years is suddenly going to kill the planet.
 

Runningflame570

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
493
Uh, how is burning dirty heavily polluting coal not using "fossil fuels"?

It amazes me how little people understand about how electricity is generated, and how the idea of an electric car is just as bad as one with a gasoline burning internal combustion engine, from an environmental standpoint.

Stop talking if you're too lazy to look things up or too stupid to understand them.

Electricity generation from coal has dropped off a cliff and is at levels last seen in the mid-90s with coal only accounting for around 36% of generation (last I checked-it may well have gone down further since).

Even if the grid was 100% coal-and it isn't-an EV would still be far more efficient than the average car, truck, or SUV.
 

Runningflame570

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
493
But where we are now, most of the US plant capacity is in coal. Nice, dirty, old, coal. Factor in the pollution not only from direct burning but coal fuel shipping, the efficiency negation of power-line transmission...and you're probably not going to be much ahead of a fleet of cars.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

I swear, with all of the myths I see you guys ranting about around here it's almost like I'm listening to Zeus worshippers.
 

Runningflame570

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
493
I had this argument with someone about this as well. The person did not even realize that almost 70% of our electricity is still from coal.

Because it's about half that percentage, unless you live in one of the very few states where coal still makes up 70% plus of power. If you're talking nationally-well, I don't know where you're getting your information from but you should stop using it. The EIA is around for a reason.
 

Climber

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
5,283
...What am I suppose to do with the electric car when I can't go visit the in-laws, or the batteries need replaced? All I was trying to point out is that in my area it isn't over that hump yet, and instead of trying to promote that it is, continue r&d.

What do you think they are doing? That is what these grants are there for to promote R&D. If you start pimping the technology you need the infrastructure to support it. What good are electric cars if there are no charging stations. You need a new definition of forcing something down your throat. Maybe try China or North Korea as a new place to live if you think electric cars are being forced on you.

The emergence of electric cars has increased car manufactures need to improve technology in their gas engines. My Optima turbo gets 40mpg on the highway at 65mph and about 34mpg if I park it at 85. My old Prius got 45MPG on the highway if I drove at 60mph and I never drove that at 70mph or above.

Electric cars are a good thing but I'm holding out until we get George Jetson flying cars.
 

Climber

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
5,283
We are the Saudi Arabia of natural gas. Which is why suddenly 'fracking' which we've been doing for over 60 years is suddenly going to kill the planet.

Well technically fracking has been around for a lot longer, think it was the early 1900's but only now have we gotten it to be cost effective. However, I'm very concerned about the 420 different chemicals pumped into the ground to loosen the shale. Those chemicals aren't sucked back out and have to go somewhere.
 

HardUp4HardWare

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
4,274
EVs are not the fututre unless some dramatic advancements happen. They suck, EV charging is not practical, let's face it. It is so unrealistic to think that someone is going to leave their car sitting at a charging station...it is just stupid. The Gov loves EVs because then they can just tax the shit out of electric use, and they can flick the switch any time they want you to stay put.

I hope Hydrogen can slip in and bring some sanity to this.
 

Ryokurin

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Aug 14, 2001
Messages
10,560
What do you think they are doing? That is what these grants are there for to promote R&D. If you start pimping the technology you need the infrastructure to support it. What good are electric cars if there are no charging stations. You need a new definition of forcing something down your throat. Maybe try China or North Korea as a new place to live if you think electric cars are being forced on you.

The emergence of electric cars has increased car manufactures need to improve technology in their gas engines. My Optima turbo gets 40mpg on the highway at 65mph and about 34mpg if I park it at 85. My old Prius got 45MPG on the highway if I drove at 60mph and I never drove that at 70mph or above.

Electric cars are a good thing but I'm holding out until we get George Jetson flying cars.

he moved the goalposts so no matter what his position isn't going to change. Kohls and Whole foods are Niche places when those are likely the spots that people who drive those cars will go. he believes that 50 miles round trip to/from Houston can't be done in the cars when most have 100+ mile range, and then the standard rants on "what will I do if I need to leave town?" (take your normal car, or rent one) and "what If I need to replace the batteries?" (the warranties on Leafs is 8 years, and cells can be individually replaced) No one said that electric vehicles will be the only car you need and as for battery life, The Prius has been around for 13+ years now, have we heard a lot of reports of battery failures? Not really, and there's an aftermarket for refurbished units.

I'm in Atlanta, where commuters often live 50+ miles away from where they work and I see Leafs, Volts and rarely Teslas almost daily. clearly some people are making it work. and maybe truly he can't but no one is shoving anything down his throat.
 

Climber

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
5,283
Yea it is laughable that someone can claim this is being shoved down their throat. Poor analogy. If anything it is barely being pushed.
 

Skripka

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Messages
10,792
he moved the goalposts so no matter what his position isn't going to change. Kohls and Whole foods are Niche places when those are likely the spots that people who drive those cars will go. he believes that 50 miles round trip to/from Houston can't be done in the cars when most have 100+ mile range, and then the standard rants on "what will I do if I need to leave town?" (take your normal car, or rent one) and "what If I need to replace the batteries?" (the warranties on Leafs is 8 years, and cells can be individually replaced) No one said that electric vehicles will be the only car you need and as for battery life, The Prius has been around for 13+ years now, have we heard a lot of reports of battery failures? Not really, and there's an aftermarket for refurbished units.

I'm in Atlanta, where commuters often live 50+ miles away from where they work and I see Leafs, Volts and rarely Teslas almost daily. clearly some people are making it work. and maybe truly he can't but no one is shoving anything down his throat.

They'll work so long as you live somewhere with fair weather most of the year.

100+ mile range is probably only when you're not running the A/C or heater.
 

TeeJayHoward

Limpness Supreme
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
11,244
Once EV's can do 225 miles per charge AND cost under $25,000 I'll bite :D
I want an EV that is smaller than 170"x65", seats at least two adults comfortably, can go 200 miles at 80MPH on a single charge, charges in under 8 hours, gets to 60MPH in under 4 seconds, looks good, fits a guy who's over six feet tall, weighs less than 3,000lbs, and costs under $40,000. It also needs to be very simple to work on, because I love to tinker. All the "Extras" should be able to be turned off - ABS, Traction control, automatic seatbelts, etc - I don't care. I don't want or need that crap. I would, however, like an electric heater (instant heat in the winter), A/C, cruise control, and power windows.

I want a fun playtoy that I can drive up to my friends on the weekend, and park anywhere. The Model S is beautiful, comfortable, and damned near practical, but it's also approaching land yacht status at 196"x77". I want something sized more like a classic bug, and less like a Lincoln Towncar. Sadly, I don't fit in the Roadster. Big shame, because, aside from the price, it meets all of my requirements.

And I'll have to build it myself, because, let's face it... It'll never happen. Give battery tech a few more years, and I just might try!
 

klowngoblin

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Oct 28, 2001
Messages
1,087
Powered by Coal™

How an EV is powered
Coal/Hydro/Thermal/Solar/Nuclear > power lines > Battery inside EV > Electric Motor

How an Internal Combustion engine is powered

Coal/Hydro/Thermal/Solar/Nuclear > electricity to power Offices to determine where to drill for oil > electricity to power drilling rig site + Camp to house all those workers > electricity to power Pipeline, tankers or ships to move oil refinery site > electricity to power oil refinery to process crude oil > electricity to power another pipeline, tanker, ship transport stage > electricity to power a 24/7 gas station > burn inside of engine

And you guys are telling me that it’s worse than an EV that can use power directly from a power plant where it can use that electricity at 80-90% efficiency,

Where an ICE must use electricity first through several hundreds if not thousands of steps in order to produce gasoline which it can only burn with around 15-20% efficiency?

In the case of an oil sands drilling site, do you know how much energy you need to shove a 500-1000km pipe into the ground (SAGD requires 2 of these massive pipes), separate the crude oil and bitumen (or whatever else you need to extract) and then pump it back up? You need to somehow boil tens of thousands of litres of water for the steam extraction to work, do you know how much power that needs?
 

[Tripod]MajorPayne

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jun 15, 2004
Messages
4,945
How an EV is powered
Coal/Hydro/Thermal/Solar/Nuclear > power lines > Battery inside EV > Electric Motor

How an Internal Combustion engine is powered

Coal/Hydro/Thermal/Solar/Nuclear > electricity to power Offices to determine where to drill for oil > electricity to power drilling rig site + Camp to house all those workers > electricity to power Pipeline, tankers or ships to move oil refinery site > electricity to power oil refinery to process crude oil > electricity to power another pipeline, tanker, ship transport stage > electricity to power a 24/7 gas station > burn inside of engine

All of your points are valid, but every intermediate step for getting power to the grid is present as well, not just in the oil industry. Or did you think coal sprouted out of the ground underneath coal plants?

Based on all the energy we have to expend to get resources from place to place and extract the energy from them, it would surprise me if the true "dig this out of the earth" to "power at the outlet" efficiency is more than 5% for fossil fuel sources. Nuclear may be marginally better because the fuel volume is so much smaller.

The immediate answer to all our electric power energy issues is to build 15 more nuclear plants on waterways away from the coasts. Federally guarantee the loans but actually hold people accountable for their decisions and the results. The NRC is being capricious about licensing and that drives up costs and times. Construction companies do shit wrong, and that drives up costs and times, and the utilities lie about estimated time and cost, and then try to foist it off on the ratepayers. Fix the corruption and lying. Start being serious about getting things done on time and at or under budget.

Refund Yucca Mountain spend fuel repository or fund the program to find a better spot. Impeach Harry Reid for waiting until it was almost done to decide to fight it. I don't care if it is in his home state, he doesn't have the right to watch billions get spent and then object at the last minute and abuse his position in the Senate to kill the project unilaterally. Stop allowing the government to move the goalposts on contracts and delivery dates. It gets done with the money we sent you in the time you said it would get done or people start going to jail unless you have a really, really good reason.

We have the engineering ability, we have the capital, we have the land and water to make nuclear energy at least 50% of our energy needs, and we'll be set for 50 years while we continuously improve. The only things stopping this are idiots with NIMBY syndrome (I'd rather live inside a nuclear plant than within 40 miles of a coal plant) and government bullshit.

Then you can all have your electric vehicles (all the EV subsidies are regressive, by the way. Average household income of an EV buyer is well over $100,000. We'd be better off spending the money on improving the falling-down roads and bridges we already have). The Volt has been a government-sponsored embarassment, just like wind power. Neither are economically viable at this time, and without massive government subsidy, neither would exist in a commercial form, but people with niche applications, the inherent desire, or the interest would still be able to use their money to make market choices to go after renewable power. Forcing the taxpayers to overpay for green-agenda renewables and blocking nuclear at the same time is borderline traitorous. I guess green energy has a good lobby.
 

Kaitian

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
4,870
Top