U.K.'s DNA Database Violates Rights

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Here’s one that won’t come as a shock to anyone, the courts have decided that the DNA database in the U.K. violates people’s rights. Gee, ya think?

The European Court of Human Rights decision on Thursday means that the DNA details and possibly fingerprints of people suspected of a crime, but later cleared, could be removed. The court found that in keeping the DNA details of people suspected of a crime the "state had overstepped any acceptable margin of appreciation."
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Hey, if you don't want DNA to be in a database, don't leave it behind.
 
+1 for common sense.

If you commit a crime, you lose some of your rights and your DNA/fingerprints go into a database.

If you're cleared of a crime, you've never lost those rights and the info should be erased.

Civil rights FTW.
 
It is a very good decision but it is a little more complicated. For example Scotland already disposes of DNA records of people who are innocent. For example in Scotland '08 nearly 20,000 people had their records deleted compared to about 250 in England & Wales. (I live in Scotland and am grateful especially when you consider reports such as the Privacy International report which shows Scotland outperforms England & Wales for protecting civil liberties.)

The Register link - The DNA database and you

Unfortunately the government and the police are enthralled by the prospect of a DNA database. It's floating around in the newspapers that the government may try and create an entire population DNA database with samples taken at birth - this would get around the differences in treatment of people. But the police and the government don't seem to realise that they will kiss goodbye to any co-operation by the public with policing efforts as everyone will be treated like a suspect.

But the government always say 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear' but I am fearful - fearful of having to prove that I have nothing to hide. Recent laws in the UK have moved more and more into the question of intent and in particular what you are thinking when you commit a crime. The balance is swinging more and more toward presumed guilt and placing the onus on the citizen to prove that they are innocent. It becomes a lot more difficult to prove the absence of evidence than the presence of evidence.

And the government have steadily rolled back the right to jury trials for certain crimes (because as citizens we can't be trusted to produce the correct, government approved, decisions). The government have also changed the law so that virtually every single crime is an arrestable offence which therefore allows the police to fingerprint you and take your DNA - and they aren't shy in using that power. Man spends 18 hours in police cell and has his DNA taken for 'dropping an apple core' . Recently there has been the case of an Iraq and Afghanistan veteran assaulted by the police. Police assault allegation probed

The evidence also suggests that DNA evidence isn't all it's cracked up to be (see link below). Also many high profile cases have been thrown out of court for dodgy DNA evidence.

The Register link - DNA convictions fall as database doubles in size

Next up we need a legal challenge to the government's ID card scheme.

cheers
 
I failed to mention that the government and police have a terrible record of securing data. Even the head of Microsoft UK said that the database culture - DNA, medical records, ID cards, children's database and more - of the UK government would be impossible to secure and do nothing but provide a giant honey pot for commercial, criminal and foreign interest to hack or bribe officials for information.
 
Monkey God said:
A very useful and informative post. Thoughtcrime, here we come. Orwell was 25 years too early, but still accurate in his predictions.
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No, Orwell was 100% right on how long it would take people to abuse the technology, he was just wrong on his predictions of how long it would take the technology to develop.
 
Lets face it, when you are born your DNA is now entered into a DB somewhere, to think otherwise is idiocy.
 
Think of how many criminals would be on the street today if we hadn't been collecting fingerprints when someone was arrested for the last 100 years. How is collecting DNA any worse than collecting fingerprints? It is not as if anyone can do ANYTHING with your DNA records other than basically what they do with fingerprints today. Big deal if the records are somehow lost, it is not as if you can be cloned from a record of your DNA.

If it is effectively the same thing as finger printing then shouldn't the UK remove all finger print records for people who were not convicted as well? What about civil servant records? Military records for people who have left the service? Where does the right to keep records on citizens stop, and WTF is the harm of doing it and the benefit of not doing it? I ask because the courts decision, as described in the article, really didn't give a good reason, and I really don't see how it is a violation of a persons human rights for a government to store basic identification information about them.

The complaints themselves were pretty stupid too. How does the police having your records cast suspicion on you? Because they search a database you happen to be in? That is NOT SUSPICION, that is freaking data mining to solve a valid criminal case. What about automobile registration? That is a database with your personal information and every time there is a description of a vehicle involved in an illegal act that database is searched, meaning it casts just as much suspicion on you as a search of the fingerprint database does. The basis of their argument was horribly flawed and the final decision was to.

In addition, if the basis of the removal from the database is that it casts "suspicion" on you then shouldn't we remove convicted criminals from the database once they have served their time in prison? After all, why should suspicion be cast on them? They did their time didn't they? The truth is that being in a database does not cast suspicion on you. Committing crimes and leaving behind finger prints and DNA is what casts suspicion on you. The database is simply used to identify you as a possible suspect using the evidence you might have left behind if you did commit the crime.
 
Ok, I have no problems with the government keeping DNS databases. Its not like yourDNA gives away your deepest darkest secrets and vices that you enjoy on your down time or reveal you for the klepto that you are. It doesn't give them proof about the hundreds of small illegal things you do every day, but what it does do is help catch criminals like the dick that raped and killed a woman who was jogging and they fond the sucker with a comb of DNA and detective work (the first round he convinced someone else to give his DNA sample for him, lol). Bring on the G-man and I will give him a DNA sample, right here right now (sounds so dirty).

Alas, I do have a problem with them making it public so insurance companies can run their little genetic disqualification test (prone to diseases and dying or based on genetic family history).
 
arentol said:
Think of how many criminals would be on the street today if we hadn't been collecting fingerprints when someone was arrested for the last 100 years.
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QFT. Also, think of how many innocent people would be in jail if we hadn't been doing the same.

So, the government knows that citizen #36,784,291 has base sequence AGGTCA at codon 578 on chromosome 3. My response to that is: WTF do I care? Unless I have left my DNA at a crime scene (i.e. committed a crime), there is nothing the government (or a hacker) can do with that information.

Seriously, the government can do more with your home address than your DNA records.
 
HOCP4ME said:
That's why I voted for them... (referring to the incoming administration, BTW)
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did you look at choices of the new admin, warmongers and thieves, same people that put us here to begin with.... i'm waiting for it to be annouced that Karl Rove will come back for something or other....


...anyway welcome to 1984....
 
HOCP4ME said:
Seriously, the government can do more with your home address than your DNA records.
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Correction, if the gov't gives out or grants access to your genetic code, you can find yourself without health/life insurance. There are even worst extremes such as being disqualified for jobs or imagine if all of a sudden your fiancee runs a genetic test on you and calls off your wedding because there is one factor that says she has a slight chance of handicap children. You run for politics and your opponent releases you genetic information and it reveals that you may develop a heart condition during your stay in office, would the people trust you with that very stressful 3am phone call? As long as only the gov't has the info and only uses it for criminal investigations I'll be fine with it. As soon as any wack job that can see a gain in discrediting or disqualifying me because of my genes can get a hold of it, they went to far.
 
Just how much info can you get out of these DNA records? Probably a lot more than you can with fingerprints. While fingerprints are really nothing more than a unique identifier; DNA can tell a lot more about a person.

Imagine being able to use the database to profile everyone; it'd certainly be a pain at the airport if you, say, have blue eyes and are stopped by security just because the government finds out that 78% of terrorists have blue eyes. Or if this DNA database is leaked or sold to marketers. Wouldn't that be fun.
 
SockMan! said:
Just how much info can you get out of these DNA records? Probably a lot more than you can with fingerprints. While fingerprints are really nothing more than a unique identifier; DNA can tell a lot more about a person.

Imagine being able to use the database to profile everyone; it'd certainly be a pain at the airport if you, say, have blue eyes and are stopped by security just because the government finds out that 78% of terrorists have blue eyes. Or if this DNA database is leaked or sold to marketers. Wouldn't that be fun.
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In my criminology class we studied very unusual cases were people have the same DNA and 2 sets of DNA. Even the patterns we use to match finger prints aren't 100% unique. They are even working on ways to ID people based in the pattern of your ears, which is far more unique then fingerprints (but is not left behind in a crime, lol).

A fun read is Michael Crichton's NEXT.
 
HOCP4ME said:
Seriously, the government can do more with your home address than your DNA records.
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Because the goverment has never let information they had get into the hands of the people they promised wouldn't have access to it.

It's bad enough that if you say something now to a politcal candate as a prive citizen, that members of the goverment start accessing your FBI file based on political motivation. (i.e. Joe the Plumber).

The more information you give them that they don't need, the more data they can loose, get stolen, or get used against you despite you not doing anything wrong.
 
If these DNA record were used to prevent idiots from breeding, I would be all for it.
 
It's funny to see that the author is making jokes about this subject while himself located in US. Wasn't US a police state last time you checked?
 
HardDrugsUser said:
It's funny to see that the author is making jokes about this subject while himself located in US. Wasn't US a police state last time you checked?
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No, but we have a very loose definition of 'terrorist' and a special place to send them;)
 
HardDrugsUser said:
It's funny to see that the author is making jokes about this subject while himself located in US. Wasn't US a police state last time you checked?
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It's posts like this one that make me sad. :( The United States enjoys freedoms and standards of living most of the rest of the world can only dream of. In fact, this post disproves itself because it resides on a US-based server and yet has not been deleted or censored as real police states do.

The real dumb ones are those United States citizens who continuously convince themselves that their government is horribly fascists and corrupt. While the rest of us "sheeple" allow ourselves to enjoy living in this wonderful country and fully embrace the beneficial services our government (i.e. us, the citizens themselves, and our elected representatives) provides, you continue to believe your conspiracy theories and pride yourselves in having figured out "the system", all the while failing to see the comparatively utopian lifestyle sitting right in front of you for what it really is - a real, actual, true, honest-to-God good thing. Yes, those do exist.
 
I believe it to be a horrible decision to erase the DNA samples of the "innocent". I don't even really get why this is news and has elicited so many comments on the topic. Everybody here seems to be to sensitive to privacy rights and human rights. Screw it if they government wants my DNA sample let them have it. If I commit a crime later and leave DNA evidence behind then I deserve to be caught. They should just take a DNA sample at birth and place it in the database. It would probably keep some people honest if they new that the government had a unique way of identifying them any time they chose.
 
HOCP4ME said:
It's posts like this one that make me sad. :( The United States enjoys freedoms and standards of living most of the rest of the world can only dream of. In fact, this post disproves itself because it resides on a US-based server and yet has not been deleted or censored as real police states do.

The real dumb ones are those United States citizens who continuously convince themselves that their government is horribly fascists and corrupt. While the rest of us "sheeple" allow ourselves to enjoy living in this wonderful country and fully embrace the beneficial services our government (i.e. us, the citizens themselves, and our elected representatives) provides, you continue to believe your conspiracy theories and pride yourselves in having figured out "the system", all the while failing to see the comparatively utopian lifestyle sitting right in front of you for what it really is - a real, actual, true, honest-to-God good thing. Yes, those do exist.
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sorry man.... i have to disagree with you here. Take a study of history. The third reich followed a path nearly identical to the one the US is following now. Everyone thinks its so great simply because the rights are being taken away slowly and quietly. meanwhile civil liberties are being eroded under the guise of security...the same crap done for ww2. Create an mysterious intangible enemy that cannot actually be defeated...then tell the populace that he's coming for you.

Simply having habeus corpus suspended, the patriot act, and the homegrown terror act is enough to make me worried. Let's add that recently Northcom has a program now allowing active duty army to perform roles on american soil. This one is disturbing because for things like disaster relief and state assistance is what the national guard is for...not combat squadrons.

You mention standards of living, but those are slipping for us too. Instead of combating that and the loss of the middle class we are dumping money on the wealthy 1% that put us in a financial debacle. Does that make sense to you? It's just like the old saying about letting the foxes guard the hen house... This is setting us up for a fall. If it's not a police state, a major depression could be a good reason to start one and take away the remaining civil liberties that we have.

these are NOT conspiracies...the facts are out there...even mainstream media has reported on government corruption. Do research, you can find plenty of these things on websites that are NOT conspiracy sites.

and ask anyone who was affected by this economy how "utopian" their life is... or someone who can't afford health insurance and becomes ill. Just because life is good for you doesn't mean there aren't plenty of others in this country who are hurting. This place isn't a utopia and there is corruption... I'm sorry if this offends but it seems to you that anything that isn't reported on cnn, fox, or the other news stations is a "conspiracy"
 
First, since when can you count on any database maintained by "the government" to be truly secure? At no point would government ever sell database information to private interests (such as insurance prescreening, etc)... it's not like they already sell our drivers license information to anyone with $50 or anything, huh? No idiot government person would ever get the bright idea to enhance revenue by selling off your private data to private entities.... nah, never happen.

Second, just for the tinfoil hats, you can easily now take the DNA profile, whip up a fresh batch of DNA goo, and slather it onto a crime scene. Of course the Det. Furman's of the world would only do that IF you were truly guilty, to frame your ass. See, he is guilty as sin, case closed. Screw "the glove", we gots the D and the N and the A. :eek::rolleyes::p

Third, and most importantly... you have the 5th Amendment right NOT to incriminate yourself. Leaving involuntarily any biometrics in a database to be used to check in future crime cases, when you are an otherwise innocent citizen, is a blatent violation of your 5th Amendment rights. Violate my constitutional rights and I WILL KILL YOU, just for the record.

This goes for fingerprints as well as DNA. Also, keep in mind that even the FBI admits that fingerprint evidence is an ART not a science, and is over used and trusted as evidence of guilt far more than is scientifically justified. Though it does rank ABOVE the polygraph is reliability.

All that crap and bullshit you see on CSI:Whatever is just that, 99% total bullshit. How many times do they ring up a 6 point match and call it "POSITIVE MATCH FOUND". In real life, 6 point matches would give you a 500 person suspect list. They always leave off the hours of hard detective work in the REAL WORLD, cause it don't fit in a 1 hour TV show.

So yes, any DNA/fingerprint evidence taken during investigation in which you are not convicted of a crime, needs to be destroyed.

Yes, I reserve my constitutional RIGHT to be able to commit a crime in the future and get away with it, maybe. If you are going to keep MY record, then you are required to gather the fingerprints and DNA of EVERYONE. It is a violation of my 5th amendment rights, and if you dont do it to everyone, it is also a violation of the equal protection clause. Treating ME differently then any/every-one else.

Having been SUSPECTED of a crime is not the same as having been convicted of a crime, there is no magical "almost guilty" status under the law. Presumed INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty.

For the stupid fucks: let them chip, nibble, and rationalize away at your rights, and eventually you'll wake up to realize you dont have any rights anymore.
 
Oh it violates righs? Aww poor babies! We have to think about those poor poor babies' rights, not the thousands of murderers and rapists and such that otherwise would easily be arrested because the police had their DNA on a database and therefore could identify them, or the future crimes that it would prevent. Nooo, think of the rights, oh the Humanity :rolleyes:


Fucking pussies.
 
zerrot said:
I believe it to be a horrible decision to erase the DNA samples of the "innocent". I don't even really get why this is news and has elicited so many comments on the topic. Everybody here seems to be to sensitive to privacy rights and human rights. Screw it if they government wants my DNA sample let them have it. If I commit a crime later and leave DNA evidence behind then I deserve to be caught. They should just take a DNA sample at birth and place it in the database. It would probably keep some people honest if they new that the government had a unique way of identifying them any time they chose.
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Germany 1942. While we are at it why not rid the earth of all other races but our own lol
 
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