TV buying advice

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jamsomito

2[H]4U
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Aug 29, 2010
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Hi all,

Is it kosher to ask for TV suggestions here? I am pretty much clueless about what's available and what's good or not. Here's why: we are just now getting rid of our Sony Wega 32" boob tube. :eek:

After playing some videogames on cheap panels I know I want something with low input lag.
Looking for 46"-50".
A thin bezel would be nice.
I don't give a crap about 3D.
Image quality I'm assuming you get what you pay for, so our budget is $500 preferred. Can probably go up to $800 but no more.
This will be in our living room. Probably no direct sunlight, but it's a well-lit room.

Am I missing anything? Any help is much appreciated. Even if you can't recommend specific models, I don't even know where to start when looking to buy one of these things. Do's/Don'ts? What can I expect as far as sales/deals go? Buy online and ship (amazon?) or in-store (costco?)?

Thanks,
Jams(clueless)omito
 
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How high of a response time is noticeable in games? 50ms? 40ms? 15ms?

I heard at one point that the super high refresh rates were a gimmick. What should i look for in a 120Hz or 240Hz unit?
 
Wait about a month and pick up a clearance 2013 model.

60hz is fine if you are just gaming. I like the Samsung 5300 series. Easily in your budget.
 
Been doing some research.

Everything is pointing to a plasma... better response time, contrast, motion, color. Except for maybe brightness. My big concern with plasma is image retention (burn-in). Some people say it's a thing of the past, but others report playing a game with a HUD for only a couple/few hours and having image retention for a week. That kind of freaks me out.

What do you think about plasmas and brightness/image retention? Worth the risk? Better with an LCD? Don't worry about it?
 
jamsomito said:
Been doing some research.

Everything is pointing to a plasma... better response time, contrast, motion, color. Except for maybe brightness. My big concern with plasma is image retention (burn-in). Some people say it's a thing of the past, but others report playing a game with a HUD for only a couple/few hours and having image retention for a week. That kind of freaks me out.

What do you think about plasmas and brightness/image retention? Worth the risk? Better with an LCD? Don't worry about it?
Click to expand...

Depends whose using it. I'm personally not a marathon gamer so I havent noticed any issues with image retention on my plasma. Not to mention it was a sammy 52" for 450
 
I have a Panasonic TCP50GT50 model plasma tv which I use for console gaming (and on occasion, PC gaming). The downside is Panasonic is no longer making Plasma TV's (I'll get to why in a minute).

By definition, plasma TV's do run the risk of burn in just because of how they operate. Now, there's burn in and then there's BURN IN. Plasma TV's of old used to have a real bad problem with that, and as the years have gone by - they've gotten better. However, even with my TV (which is a 2012 model year), there's still the odd burn in. One example that comes to mind is on the PS3 home screen, when you select and load Netflix up, you get that red Netflix screen. I can see burn in from the PS3's home screen for the duration of that red screen, however it's not horrid, nor does it last. Once the screen loads the Netflix movie selection, there's no burn in. Call it 10 seconds of burn in, that's it. I've never seen more than that - ever.

As for fast action video games, I don't notice burn in, but that's because I'm not looking for it, I'm playing the game! I'm sure to some degree it's there but from what I see while game playing, there's 0 issues with that for me.

Now - Panasonic for 2011, 2012 and 2013 (up to March 2014) made the best TV's in terms of picture quality. Out of LED / LCD and Plasma categories, their plasma TV's were at THE top (according to consumer reports) of both categories combined. I can vouch that the blacks are really black, the picture is down right amazing, and as for input lag, I don't notice anything. These TV's were pretty damned amazing for gaming on - at least for it being a TV (versus a 27" monitor for example).

However, with the invention of 4k, Panasonic stopped making Plasma TV's. Right now, there's only about 3 or 4 manufacturers still making them. Plasma is going the way of the dodo because 4k and LED TV's are slowly overcoming the advantages plasma had (viewing angle is one of them).

Back on to your question though - I can't answer directly whether or not the Toshiba is any good. There are tons of reviews - which you can easily find on google by typing in the name of the TV as well as keywords such as 'for gaming' or 'input lag' - on many, many different TV's out there. I can tell you that if you find a Panasonic Plasma TV, you won't be disappointed.

In terms of LED / LCD TV's, don't fall for the 4k stuff yet. For gaming, we can't achieve faster than 30 FPS - which for any PC game is bad - unless we use multiple cords. We need to increase our bandwidth over DP or HDMI to achieve 60 or more FPS. Your port on the back of any TV today will be limited to the DP or HDMI version today, so you'd essentially be locking yourself into 30 FPS 4k gaming.

If you want a Plasma TV, look up reviews for input lag, as well as other aspects of gaming. Google is your friend. Typically anything less than about 20-25 ms (plus or minus) total latency, you won't notice (unless you're really paying attention or looking for it). Anything higher and you'll start to notice ever so slightly. TV's with game mode also work not too badly, some better than others.

Refresh rates don't paint the overall picture because latency is determined by both the pixel response time and input latency times. Higher refresh rates help with pixel response times, but some TV vendors sacrifice input latency for that.

Now in terms of buying a TV, look at some locally in stores (Best Buy, Visions, whoever else has a brick and mortar store). See which picture you like the best, write down the model number and google reviews as well as gaming reviews on the unit. In Canada, one of the chain stores (Visions to be exact) will not only price match, but they allow haggling too. Even if I have a US price, as it'll cost me about 15$ extra in gas to go down and pick it up. The TV I have now back in 2012 retailed for around $2,199 before taxes - but when I shopped online for the best price, I found a clearance store and ended up buying a brand new tv for $1,200 after taxes, pretty much half price. Again if you're going for a Panasonic, the prices have come down as those TV's are a few model years old now. Good luck finding one still though.

Just to get you down the right path too, https://www.google.ca/search?q=Toshiba+47L6200U+for+video+gaming&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&gfe_rd=cr&ei=lfVCU_CIHouN8QfEzYDQDQ#q=Toshiba+47L6200U+input+lag&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address. I'd go further but I'm at work and I don't have unrestricted internet access currently.

Edit: while this is more for monitors, I'm going to drop this in here as most of it applies to TV's:
elvn said:
Though not specific to this monitor alone, I put some insights I gathered about 120hz, high fps on high hz, motion blur, g-sync here http://www.web-cyb.org/hardware-info/120hz-fps-compared.htm
Click to expand...
 
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crimsonyoshi said:
*snip*
Click to expand...

Hey crimsonyoshi - you get the best advice award. If anything just for the amount of time you spent writing that up. Many thanks.

My problem is I'm looking at all these different specs and just getting lost. I think I understand all of them, but there's just so many makes and models of TV's out there in every different size and shape. It's simply overwhelming.

Also, I've done a lot of googling, but I don't know which sites I can trust and which ones are just trying to sell me something, fanboys of specs that just don't matter, or plain old don't know their stuff. I'll continue to look around but that's still one of my fears.

Anyway, I'll keep looking with your suggestions in mind. Thanks again.

EDIT: Thought I would throw this in... I found that toshiba unit here: http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/#participants-list It seems like a credible site... just stack up all the units by size and input lag time and find the best fit. There are some in the 25ms range that are in my budget too, but only one or two in the teens.
 
You're right to question websites as not all of them are 100% reliable, though most are. I know anandtech is good, though I can't remember if I've seen TV reviews on there or not. Really if you can find results of a TV, and then find duplicate or near similar results on other websites, that's usually a good sign right there.

to simplify the above post, the main things you want to look for in any tv are: picture quality, latency, and plasma vs lcd.

Picture quality always changes per model and per brand. The only real way to see if you like the picture quality is to go out and look at the TV in question while it's in use. Granted most TV's are within a range, so you won't get a huge distribution of results but there are noticeable differences.

Plasma TV's really are better than LED / LCD ones, and they still produce better picture quality than LED / LCD TV's (that gap is narrowing fast).

If you do end up getting a LCD /LED tv make sure you get one that has a good 'game mode' on it.

Input lag is purely for gaming and doesn't matter for anything else.


Any other stats and specs about a TV aren't totally relevant to what you need it for. Yes it matters to picture quality, but that's about it. I'll break a few categories down though. Pull up this page: http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-P50GT50

Breaking it down we first have the display category. Here you see aspect ratio, size, number of pixels (directly related to the resolution of the TV - 1920x1080 = 2,073,600). Panel is the brand of panel this company uses, it's just a name and the name itself means nothing when compared to other brands. You'd need to read reviews to see what the differences are. HDTV and aspect control are pretty self explanatory.

Picture is where most differences come in. There's different categories for plasma vs LCD too. Gradation refers to black levels, the more, the better (well at least the more colours your TV can produce), everything else there besides the playback are extra gimmicks the TV has. The playback doesn't really matter for gaming.

3D - wow :rolleyes:

Everything else, self explanatory or doesn't matter - they're throwing out terms you've never seen in the hopes that you go "look at all of these cool things the other brands don't even mention". One example is 'pixel orbiter (anti image retention)'. Plasmas all have technology to prevent burn in and that's just what Panasonic calls theirs. Pixel orbiter just sounds cooler than "anti-burn in technology - yes"

The other thing you may run into is dynamic contrast ratio. While typically the better the ratio (the higher it is that is), that doesn't really mean anything. "True" (meaning no 'dynamic' in front of the rest of it) contrast ratios matter - those can be found by reviewers.

So I guess TL-DR, find a TV you like the picture on. Make sure it has low input lag (and if LCD a game mode) and you're all set!

I'm also going to add that a quick look around on places like ebay or amazon have my brand and model TV up for your price range. Heck there's even a model 5" bigger in there too!
 
jamsomito said:
My big concern with plasma is image retention (burn-in).
Click to expand...

My Panasonic G10 plasma (I think it's a 2009 model, give or take a year) gets MAJOR image persistence, but it goes away quickly. Even 10 seconds of my PS3's XMB will be retained for a couple minutes, but is only visible on black screens. I do not notice it otherwise. Odd, because it's quite easily visible to me on the black screens. That said, if I were to find that the new plasma models had this issue, I'd probably still go LCD for my next TV. Though by the time I buy my next TV, LCD may be all that's available, anyway...

But I imagine newer models are better. I've heard some people claim their G10 doesn't do that, but I'm not sure if those people have poor eyes (I won't get into specifics, but I've got VERY trained eyes when it comes to finding video artifacts, and everyone else is friggin blind as far as I'm concerned - I've met more people who claimed they can't see any cross-chroma or cross-luma artifacting in composite video than could - LOL) or if my TV just happened to exhibit this problem more than the average.

I've left static images on it for up to a couple hours at a time and never had a problem. Though this has been done rather few times. And mostly by a****** housemates who didn't give a f*** about equipment they didn't buy.
 
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If it's a well lit room you probably don't want plasma.

I helped some family members pick out tvs recently. They have a light controlled room and got a 5300-series Samsung plasma. As far as picture quality, it blows away any LCD I've ever seen, but there are noticeable reflections with the lights all on.
 
my tv actually gets pretty bright and I hear the samsung f8500 made a point of obtaining aneven brighter picture. I dont know why you would want any brighter because my tv is already blindingly bright and it is on half brightness.
 
I've had a Pioneer plasma for about six years now. Fifty inch. We play PC games, browse the web(like now) and watch TV. I have NEVER had any retention on the screen.
Also if you want the most in depth reviews go here. You can spend days reading on there, but it's the best site out there.
http://www.avsforum.com/f/
 
Awesome, thanks everyone.

FYI, here's the room this TV will be going in (extremely crappy pic, sorry):

nEo8PfHl.jpg


The TV will be going on the wall to the right of the window, OR 90deg on the wall adjacent to the left. There's also a skylight in the room:

AYtEDuAl.jpg


Still think a plasma would work?
 
Just bought a 55in for my basement. Wasn't looking for anything crazy, besides apps like netflix. Ended up going with this (http://www.amazon.com/VIZIO-E550i-B2-55-Inch-1080p-120Hz/dp/B00GKKI4JI). I bought it at BB with a 10% off coupon and it came to $668. After messing with the settings I put up Avengers through Netflix and it looks pretty decent. For some reason, DLNA freezes when going through my Plex server.

Edit: Also, the input lag is supposed to be about 40ms.
 
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My Panasonic TV works fine with a south window (plasma TV is on the east wall). It's got an auto dimmer / brightener feature on it which actually works well. In your first picture, I see blinds so that's good. However really your only issue is going to be if the sun shines directly on it. Plasmas don't do well in direct sunlight as it's a 100% glossy screen.

Other than that, even with my south facing window, so long as the sun isn't directly on the TV, I have no issues with my plasma being where it is. The first picture is about the brightness I deal with every day too.

I do have reservations about that skylight though. Invest another 20 bucks and get a blanket to tape up there if it becomes too problematic!
 
you really need to go to AVS forum and read the reviews...LCD and Plasma
 
Ok yeah avsforum is awesome... problem is like harsaphes said, you could spend days there :(

Just spent today looking around at various stores and comparing to Amazon, displaylag.com, and avsforum reviews. I think I'm going to go with the Samsung UN46EH5300 at Costco for $600. Amazon linky. Here's why:

1. Full array LED, not edge-lit. Better blacks and consistency.
2. Can get really bright
3. Always nice to save a few bones. I'll put the extra $200 towards a nice entertainment center.
4. Low input lag. Apparently it's about 29ms. Most of the upper-level displays have lag times in the 40's and 50's. Ack.
5. Smart features will likely be used a lot. It's not a selling feature for me but a nice bonus. We used to turn on the Wii and/or PS3 for netflix, hulu, etc. Now it saves a step.
6. Costco includes a 2 year warranty. My understanding is if your set is going to take a crap, it does so within 18mos. I don't want to pay for a warranty, but that 12-18mo range seems risky.

I'm not as impressed with the aesthetics of the unit, but I can live with it, and it's not worth $200 for a thinner bezel. Well, maybe if I wasn't married lol

I'm buying this tomorrow, unless you can convince me it's a bad decision. Many thanks for the help otherwise. :cool:
 
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Looks like a decent TV at a moderate price - one thing you might want to add is a sound bar to improve audio quality, as the speakers tend to be on the rear of the TV firing at the rear wall, which is obviously not ideal!
 
Thanks for the tip. I really don't care too much about the sound from the TV itself though because I've got my own 5.1 system I'll be using.

Well, I took a trip to Costco yesterday and the sales guy talked me in to the Vizio M471i-a2.

Amazon Linky #2


My reasoning:
1. More recent TV (2013 model instead of 2012 model)
2. 120 Hz (though I see now it's likely 60Hz with backlight strobe)
3. 1" bigger
4. Good reviews on avsforum (bang for buck)
5. Slightly better styling IMHO

Got it set up yesterday and overall I'm pretty happy with it. I was pretty taken aback in a bad way though by the local dimming feature. Because it's edge lit from the sides, when it dims an area, it dims a whole horizontal band across the entire screen. Very distracting. I've heard the set takes some tweaking though so I'll do that this week. My backup is still the samsung unit listed earlier.
 
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How do you like your new Samsung UN46EH5300 OP?

I am currently looking into the new 2014 Vizio HDTV's 55" model E550i-B2. Costco has it for $679 and I'll probably go to bestbuy.com and have them price match Costco. Then use my 10% off to get a little more money off the deal.
 
jamsomito said:
Thanks for the tip. I really don't care too much about the sound from the TV itself though because I've got my own 5.1 system I'll be using.

Well, I took a trip to Costco yesterday and the sales guy talked me in to the Vizio M471i-a2.

Amazon Linky #2


My reasoning:
1. More recent TV (2013 model instead of 2012 model)
2. 120 Hz (though I see now it's likely 60Hz with backlight strobe)
3. 1" bigger
4. Good reviews on avsforum (bang for buck)
5. Slightly better styling IMHO

Got it set up yesterday and overall I'm pretty happy with it. I was pretty taken aback in a bad way though by the local dimming feature. Because it's edge lit from the sides, when it dims an area, it dims a whole horizontal band across the entire screen. Very distracting. I've heard the set takes some tweaking though so I'll do that this week. My backup is still the samsung unit listed earlier.
Click to expand...

I messed around a bunch with that M series. I was able to overclock them to 120Hz over HDMI. Both the 40" and the 32" M321i-A2 worked at 120Hz. I was actually using them, so I'm pretty sure they weren't skipping frames. Do it! :)
 
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calikool said:
How do you like your new Samsung UN46EH5300 OP?

I am currently looking into the new 2014 Vizio HDTV's 55" model E550i-B2. Costco has it for $679 and I'll probably go to bestbuy.com and have them price match Costco. Then use my 10% off to get a little more money off the deal.
Click to expand...

I went with a 2013 vizio M series. Overall I like it a lot but I'm disappointed with the local dimming. Its too aggressive. I've heard the 2014 E series is great with the FALD design. If the 49" 2014 M series comes out before my 90 day return window is up, I think I'm going to fork over the extra $100 and switch.

Bluesun311 said:
I messed around a bunch with that M series. I was able to overclock them to 120Hz over HDMI. Both the 40" and the 32" M321i-A2 worked at 120Hz. I was actually using them, so I'm pretty sure they weren't skipping frames. Do it! :)
Click to expand...
Orly?? Got any links or tips for how-tos? I'm really interested.
 
jamsomito said:
I went with a 2013 vizio M series. Overall I like it a lot but I'm disappointed with the local dimming. Its too aggressive. I've heard the 2014 E series is great with the FALD design. If the 49" 2014 M series comes out before my 90 day return window is up, I think I'm going to fork over the extra $100 and switch.


Orly?? Got any links or tips for how-tos? I'm really interested.
Click to expand...

See if you can get it to work, it was really easy for me and I did it with both AMD cards and Nvidia, I'm curious if it was skipping frames and I didn't notice, I really doubt it.

http://www.blurbusters.com/overclock/120hz-pc-to-tv/
Mark over at Blurbusters is the go to guy on this. Easiest way was Nvidia Control Panel, maybe theres a new way for Radeon users too, I'm not sure.
 
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