True 120Hz from PC to TV!!! (Successful Overclocking Of HDTV / Plasmas)

Discussion in 'Displays' started by Mark Rejhon, Jun 11, 2013.

  1. Trojita

    Trojita n00b

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    I actually tried to do this awhile ago, but couldn't get it to work. This was mostly because my PC is farther away and I was using a 15 foot HDMI cable going to a receiver, from the receiver an HDMI cord then going to the TV. I'm not sure if it was HDMI 1.4 (if its required) as well.

    Would this or the impulse mode talked about here for the Sony's be better?

    http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1742666

    I still need to find out where in my HX929 the impulse mode is if it is there.
     
  2. RPGWiZaRD

    RPGWiZaRD [H]ard|Gawd

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    No 32" TVs capable of 1080p @ 120Hz? :p 40"+ gets a little large for 1080p (especially if you sit like 1 meter in front of the monitor haha), 32" would still be quite good enough for me though.
     
  3. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    There are two avenues of reducing gaming motion blur on LCD HDTV's.

    1. Get a Sony TV with the low-lag Game Mode Motionflow Impulse feature (LightBoost style strobe backlight)
    --or--
    2. Get a TV that supports true 120Hz via the HDTV Overclocking HOWTO: 120Hz from PC to TV


    Pros/Cons Motionflow Impulse
    + Only requires 60Hz; console compatible; less GPU-hungry
    + 75% less motion blur than standard 60Hz
    - Flickers more
    - Dimmer picture

    Pros/Cons Native 120Hz
    + 50% less motion blur than standard 60Hz
    + No flicker, no dim picture
    - Very difficult to do with most HDTV's; must choose HDTV model carefully.
    - Not compatible with game consoles, must use 120Hz from PC
     
  4. Morkai

    Morkai Limp Gawd

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    I asked the nice people at HIFI-klubben (a scandinavian chain of stores) if i could mess around with the VT60-plasmas, and i had no success even at 72hz (i tried all of the below at 72, 96 and 120hz)..

    First of all, it might have been due to these two factors:

    1. I used my laptop (obviously), and maybe the geforce 650m simply can't do it?
    2. The hdmi out on the macbook pro retina is detected as DVI by the nvidia panel - perhaps this is the problem (internal dvi->hdmi conversion?)?

    Those possible issues aside, i tried everything i could think of.
    *pixel mapping on/off, in combinations with game mode on/off. All kinds of image enhancements off.
    *custom resolutions, custom resolutions with various reductions in porch, sync etc - no luck.
    *tried all 3 HDMI ports, just in case.
    *Tried the CRU utility, both by creating manual modes, and the setting for "lcd -reduced" - no luck. Applied the driver fix patch.
    *We did use a 120hz/3d certified hdmi cable, they even opened a new one for me in case the 1st had a problem.
    *Tried 120hz@720p, nope, didn't work.

    Any input on this? will it work with a "real" graphics card, or was it possibly caused by the connection being detected as DVI?

    The screen looks amazing all in all and i have no doubts that it beats all IPS/*VA/4K LCD in pretty much every category of viewing angles/contrast/color/image/motion quality, but connected to a computer @60hz gave head-ache inducing flicker, just like a 60hz CRT would (which i consider positive, if only the refresh can be increased!)

    The game mode has been measured at around 20ms input lag @60hz, so if it could be increased to 120hz, that would also drop to quite acceptable levels.
     
  5. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    Awfully nice of HIFI-klubben to let you do this. First things first:

    -- Most laptops can't easily output 120Hz, but if you managed, then:
    -- For 3D HDTV's, 72Hz and 96Hz is generally less successful than 120Hz
    -- 1080p @ 120Hz is fairly rare, while 720p @ 120Hz is far more commonly working.
    -- 120Hz needs to be in the same timings as the 3D frame-sequential format. 720p60 3D frame-sequential is the same timings as 720p120Hz.
    -- It may also be European differences (100Hz versus 120Hz). Did you try 100Hz too?

    I assume you also tested 1280x720 120Hz which very frequently works -- while 1920x1080 120Hz does not. One of the biggest challenges is not knowing what numbers to punch in for Front Porch, Back Porch, Sync Pixels, etc. That can mean the difference between 720p120Hz not working, and 720p120Hz working. You might have been unlucky to use timings that weren't compatible. Maybe next time, try the various different formulas (Automatic, Reduced, GTF, DMT), to use larger and smaller sync intervals, and see if this causes 720p120Hz working.
     
  6. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    If you dont mind 720p @ 120Hz, the Optoma HD131X 1080p 3D projector does it as a feature.
    Its dirt cheap and a great projector to boot, 6000hr bulb life.
    3D glasses are £24 from Amazon.

    Tested at 720p 120Hz and its super smooth.
    If this could do 120Hz at 1080p...
     
  7. Morkai

    Morkai Limp Gawd

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    I did not try 100hz, but i agree that it makes most sense to try 100hz and 120hz now that i think of it, ill focus on those next time as it must have some timings for those for 3D.
    There is no difference in the european model refresh-wise, it has 50 and 60hz default modes, and 100 or 120hz in 3D.
    I'm also going to try higher refreshrates from the laptop here at home, so i know if it works at all.
    Might also try a thunderbolt ->hdmi cable, to see if that works better (incase the hdmi being detected as dvi was the issue.

    I also disabled the laptops screen to make sure there were no dual-monitor problems.

    I did try 1280x720 120Hz, but not much.
    I frankly don't care if it works or not, although i guess its academically interesting to know... I'll test it if/after i get 1080p working.
    I won't buy a display that can't do at least 85hz+ in 1080p, thats my pain threshold to stutter and crt/plasma-flicker, and 1080p is low enough resolution as it is.
     
  8. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    For a guaranteed 1080p @ 120Hz, the 50 inch version of the SEIKI 4K HDTV can do it during 1920x1080 resolution.

    For a strobed display at >85Hz, try the Panasonic NeoPDP panels, that ChadThunder liked here on HardForum. Confirmed 75Hz at 1080p and confirmed 120Hz at 720p.
     
  9. Morkai

    Morkai Limp Gawd

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    The Panasonic VT60 series are the latest neoplasmas (and according to multiple reviews, the best ever qualitywise except maybe the zt and vx). In this year's editions there are no updates for the professional lines that used to have dual-link dvi.
    VT60 are the replacing models of the VT50, that you have a semi-unconfirmed source link stating it can do 120hz@1080p in the top post (a friend of someone has said it works, etc). This is why i was hoping 120hz would work on the latest model too, and maybe it will.
    The plasmas mentioned in that other thread are discontinued, sadly. It's still possible to buy the 42PF50 here, but that was the one only capable of 76hz according to ChadThunder. (Can't find the 42BT300 anywhere, which has the highest chance of 120hz).

    I will under no circumstance consider a low-quality seiki 4k LCD with ultra-slow refresh (6.5ms GTG can usually be doubled for real world application max values/ISO refresh values) and massive input lag + scaling to 1080p, bad black levels/contrast etc.

    I have also had several of the so called higher quality 4k tv's (samsung, the LG 84", philips) demoed in both bright light and lights turned off, and they are flat out bad.
    Don't get me wrong, at first, in bright/moderate light and with the demo content designed to have massive motion blur (demo's are often of blurred/trailing traffic in dark cities) and hi-res stills to mask how they handle motion, they really look very impressive. Truly a "wow" experience!

    Then you switch to content that isn't tailored to the strengths of these hi-res, ultra-slow panels (simply an action movie with fast scenes ruins it quite a bit - must be even worse for computer use).. or turn the lights off, and *poff* illusion dispelled. Seeing one next to a panasonic plasma is an eye-opener, especially in a dark room - people who buy these [to use as tv:s] are paying 3-4 times as much or more for a much worse quality display.
    (Free tip to people who build showrooms - don't put even a cheap plasma in the same room as any of the new 4k displays).

    I think grabbing one of the new plasmas, IF the refresh can be raised a bit is the best move for any picture quality/motion clarity/black level minded person, as i fear we are now entering a dark age of even slower LCD panels with all the old weaknesses of the old 1080p/1440p generations of IPS/PLS/*VA. Even panasonic seem to shift to LCD.
    This dark age will last until all the problems and costs of OLED are solved, and who knows when that might be.
    People keep hoping that LCD refresh rates will decrease, but really, apart from TN, they haven't really changed much since i bought a dell ultrasharp 20" wide s-ips in 2005 (It was fine for mmorpg style gaming and movies, etc. Bad at fps gaming. Exactly like all new IPS/PLS, just a touch worse).. Most of the new 4k LCD panels are a 5-10-year leap backwards in pixel-speed.
    I am usually easily captured by novelty/hype, but this 4k generation just doesn't cut it for any purpose, except that they are good for image viewing/processing, i guess.
    They also have terrible price/performance, and that goes for the seiki as well when compared to cheaper plasmas.

    Perhaps the sony with the strobing backlight (i will try to test that if i get the chance) or the upcoming panasonic can do better (for people who can stand 60hz), but i doubt it.
    60hz strobing will just flicker too much, unless they make the strobes really short, and then they might be ineffective.

    I will try to get 100/120hz working tomorrow on the vt60, and post the results.
     
  10. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'm not sure that the VT60 are the same type of NeoPDP's that ChadThunder tested with. The ones that are confirmed are the following:

    SUPPORTS: 120hz@720p, frame sequential 3D, 8bit/channel:
    Panasonic 42PF50U
    Panasonic 50PF50U
    Panasonic 60PF50U
    Panasonic 65PF50U

    SUPPORTS: 120hz@720p, frame sequential 3D, 10bit/channel, scaler optional
    Panasonic 42BT300U
    Panasonic 50BT300U
    Panasonic 65VX300U
     
  11. Chad_Thunder

    Chad_Thunder [H]Lite

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    @Morkai
    the VT60 is just beastly, if Panasonic would add dual-dvi/dp I would upgrade right away :)

    one way of forcing 120hz is to use frame creation on minimum, on that mode I can read the testufo map at 1440 pixels per second without affecting input lag too much(I can still play counter-strike for example), it might be worth it to reduce flicker if the set has low latency to begin with

    @Mark
    does testufo support refresh rates other than 60hz? every other mode I attempt desyncs
    (fresh win7sp1 / firefox 24 / hd6850 + latest whql drivers)


    I also have a 2007 model 50PH10 (1366x768) which shows some promising motion performance, at 60hz it remains readable up to about 720/840 pixels per second
     
  12. Chad_Thunder

    Chad_Thunder [H]Lite

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    By the way I am no closer to finding where the pixel clock limitation lies.. scaler, input board etc I have no idea and the native refresh rate could be 240hz for all I know

    @Morkai
    you are right GPU might be having an affect
    on 42PF30 my 9600GT(WinXP) can go to 125hz while my HD6850(Win7) is limited to 120hz even with pixel clock patcher

    You can try these "safe" timings for 1080p
    1920 20 20 20 1980 +/-
    1080 4 4 4 1092 +/-
    should work for both 72 and 75hz(from memory)
     
  13. elvn

    elvn 2[H]4U

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    Those pros and cons focus on blur amounts, contrast and flicker. The other major pro of having 120hz input on a display is that you get twice as many more recent updates unique action slices/frames fed to your eyeballs as long as you are capable of sending the display very high fps. That presents smoother motion due to defining the motion into more unique transitional segments/slices. It can also increase accuracy since you are seeing more updates sooner (every 8.3 ms instead of every 16.6ms).

    Personally I would be more interested in higher hz output from a pc or steambox~pc to a tv than strobing a 60hz console. However I still have a sony xbr960 34" widescreen crt if I want to play console games with my ps3. (I'm out on newer consoles going forward though).
     
  14. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    There are some variables here relating to how "smoothness" is defined.

    If you use VSYNC ON, the motion blur is identical for a 1ms strobe at 60Hz, versus a 1ms strobe at 120Hz (60fps@60Hz CRT vs 120fps@120Hz CRT does not show as much difference as a 60fps@60Hz LCD vs 120fps@120Hz LCD non-strobed). Viewing www.testufo.com on a CRT 60Hz and CRT 120Hz, shows the motion blur is the same at both refresh rates, since the phosphor decay is unchanged...

    That said, you do get less input lag & you get less stroboscopic effects at 120Hz, and definitely smoother looking VSYNC OFF.
     
  15. elvn

    elvn 2[H]4U

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    .
    While I am very interested in blur reduction and optimally blur elimination, there are additional benefits to running high fps and high hz.
    .
    When I say "smoothness" I mean something separate from blur reduction. If I were using a general term for blur reduction I would use something like "clarity" or "clearness".
    .
    Smoothness to me means more unique action slices, more recent action going on in the game world shown - more dotted lines per dotted line length, more slices between two points of travel per se, more unique and newer pages flipping in an animation booklet, pick your analogy. It means less "stops" in the action per second and more defined ("higher definition") animation/action flow, which provides greater aesthetic motion and can increase accuracy, timing, and reaction time.
    .
    Disregarding backlight strobing for a moment.. As I understand it - where a strobe light in a room someone runs across would show blackouts, a typical lcd rather than blacking out just continues displaying the last "frozen" frame of action until it is updated. At 60hz that is every 16.6ms of course, and at 120hz and high fps it would have shown a new state of/peek into the room and run cycle 8.3ms sooner instead of freeze-frame skipping (over what would have been a new state at +8.3ms) to the next later state of the room and run cycle a full 16.6ms later. What is displayed of the entire animated world action in games is updated twice as often(and twice as soon) which can increase accuracy, and in providing more "dots per dotted line" per se, makes movement transitions "cleaner"/aesthetically smoother, providing higher definition movement and animation divided into 8.3ms updates. This goes hand in hand with blur reduction/elimination to make the entire experience a drastic improvement over 60hz/60fps.

    .
    I'm keeping my eye on the 1080p 120hz input plasma results since plasma's pixel tech + the 120hz input would likely reduce blur quite a bit (more than just 50% reduction), would provide the aesthetic smoothness increase at high fps, and increased accuracy.. while providing deep blacks and good color of plasma. A solid report of a 120hz capable plasma I could test out at best buy would definitely be tempting to me for my living room pc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2013
  16. Brackle

    Brackle Old Timer

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    Pretty damn cool that TV's support this. Too bad my 60 inch LG doesn't. Either way great to see 120hz finally getting some traction (REAL 120hz)
     
  17. elvn

    elvn 2[H]4U

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    I think I asked this before in one of the threads markR contributes to, but here it is again. If you had a plasma that could receive and display 120hz of unique screen updates from a pc, considering that 120hz at high fps cuts LCD blur down by 50%, what percent would a good plasma tv in that 120hz input at high fps scenario cut down FoV motion blur? - considering the pixel tech of plasma's ability to reduce blur more.
     
  18. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    No easy unified answer. Usually more motion blur than LightBoost, but less motion blur than 144Hz. But that's not a hard-and-fast rule of thumb. Motion blur is essentially dictated by the impulse of the display. Impulse length is affected by strobe length, or phosphor decay length. Most plasmas are hobbled by the phosphor decay of ~4ms, but some plasmas such as the specific older Panasonic NeoPDP's that ChadThunder tested, have a faster-decaying phosphor, that adds more motion resolution. Mathematically, 1ms of impulse equals 1 pixel of motion blur for every 1000 pixel/second. Mathematically calculating the motion blur of a plasma is more complicated because the impulse length is complicated by the fact that phosphor decays in a gradual curve rather than a sharp falloff.

    Also, the motion blur that a display create can be linear motion blur (for strobe backlights and strobed AMOLED's where the rise/fall is fast), near gaussian-style motion blur (for an older ~8ms LCD running at 60Hz with symmetric rise/fall speeds), or a lopsided motion blur curve where the rise/fall is asymmetric (ghosting/coronas), according to www.testufo.com/blurtrail -- This allows you to see if a display generates gaussian-like motion blur (a thin white line blurring into a fuzzy bar with fuzzy edges), or linear motion blur (sharp edges, like a thin white line blurring into a thick grey bar with sharp edges). You can even see www.testufo.com/blurtrail becomes thinner/thicker whenever you switch between LightBoost=10% versus LightBoost=100% too.

    Simplifying it down, realistically, a plasma would roughly be an MPRT of 4 milliseconds (e.g. 4 milliseconds of motion blur), based on yellow ghosting. This places it slightly worse than LightBoost but much better than 144Hz, on the chart.
    There's a wide error margin in that estimate, since some plasmas have faster phosphor that decays faster. Also, darker images can ghost a lot less than bright images.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2013
  19. Chad_Thunder

    Chad_Thunder [H]Lite

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    Excellent post Mark

    Plasma is indeed a mixed bag, they all have different drive systems, phosphors, cell structure(42 inch has a "fishbone" structure) and motion prediction, for example at 60hz the 50PH10 is less noisy than the 42PF30 and yet at 120hz the PF30 still appears to benefit from motion prediction

    I reached out to Panasonic about integrating display port for 120hz+ but the engineer I spoke with didn't believe there would be enough interest as the market has almost completely embraced LED, he hinted at displayport in future products but its now almost certain he was referring to the WT600.. with plasma production winding down I dont see anything short of a kickstarter getting their attention to be honest :(
     
  20. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    A very crude, simplistic way of benchmarking your motion blur on your plasma/DLP/CRT/etc is viewing www.testufo.com/blurtrail and seeing how many pixels thick the line looks at 960 pixels/sec. It's not exactly 1000 pixels/sec because that's not evenly divisible by 60 or 120, so 960 is the nearest 'easy' number. But, still it's close enough. That's your approximate milliseconds of motion blur, within a percentage of error margin.

    www.testufo.com/blurtrail is a 1 pixel thick line. Adjust the speed to 960 pixels/sec (check the number at the bottom). So if you only have 1 millisecond of motion blur, the line becomes about 2 pixels thick (like it does on LightBoost). If the moving line is 9 pixels thick at 960 pixels/sec, it means you have approximately 8 milliseconds of motion blur.

    On many plasmas running regular subfield refreshes in Game Mode, the line looks a few pixels thick on plasmas, it trails with a somewhat yellowish color. I wonder how many pixels thick it is your plasma (your NeoPDP).
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2013
  21. elvn

    elvn 2[H]4U

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    Thanks for the reply mark. My gut feeling was that it would be at least equal to and likely more than the 144hz's 60% blur reduction on lcd panels. Your reply is good news.
    .
    If a quality modern plasma model currently carried by my local retailers (best buy, sears mostly) were confirmed to support 120hz input at 1080p I would be very tempted to pick one up to use with one of my computers.
    .
    The fact that the plasma would keep all of it's color and superior plasma contrast (black levels and detail-in blacks) as compared to a lightboost in 2D mode monitor would be a huge plus. I'd still only use it in living room or other lounged room at distance for gaming and not at my desk. I'm still considering getting a BenQ XL2720T for my desk but I would have to ask Vega to remove the AG coating which adds to the overall cost. I hate any ag and prefer glossy (I have a 27" cinema display and a 27" samsung 750D at my desk right now). I'd have to use toastyX's mod since I am still on an amd 6990 at the moment and not up for a major gpu upgrade just yet (especially if I am buying a TV and/or monitor). I'll probably go with nvidia next time around though (native lightboost support, far less microstutter, driver rollout tends to be better).
     
  22. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    That said, Sony's "Motionflow Impulse" also has less motion blur than 144Hz. But it is still only 60Hz. This was confirmed from someone on AVSFORUM. Hatlesschimp is testing his 4K Sony for PC gaming right now on overclock.net at the moment, and it has the Impulse setting. Although it's only available during 60Hz mode (1080p and 4K HDMI 2.0), not 30hz mode (4K HDMI 1.3). I will confirm there too.
     
  23. elvn

    elvn 2[H]4U

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    I appreciate that, but personally I am more interested in the 120hz input at 1080p capable plasmas and not lcd's or 60hz. It seems like the plasma mentioned/"confirmed" on the blurbuster's 120hz tv page are all older models, not currently stocked at retailers.
    .
    If a current quality model panasonic or samsung,etc. plasma were confirmed to accept 120hz input and display 120 new updates I would be very tempted to go out and get it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2013
  24. elvn

    elvn 2[H]4U

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    http://www.sears.com/panasonic-50inch-class-viera-reg-1080p-600hz-3d-plasma/p-05771532000P?prdNo=4

    http://www.bestbuy.com/site/viera-50-class-plasma-1080p-600hz-smart-3d-hdtv/8018046.p?id=1218863741614&skuId=8018046&st=panasonic%20vt50&cp=1&lp=4

    http://www.avsforum.com/t/1438092/list-of-hdtvs-with-120hz-native-refresh-ability-forcing-1080p-120hz-via-dvi-or-hdmi-from-computer#post_23757868
    If that model (Panasonic VIERA TC-P50ST60 50-Inch 1080p 600Hz 3D Smart Plasma HDTV) would accept 120hz input and output 120 unique frames I would be interested. It's around $1k (~$1100 after tax).
    .
    The newer ZT models are unconfirmed regarding 120hz input afaik, and the 60" model is around $3k+ (out of my budget).
    .
    Retailers don't seem to stock the Panasonic VIERA TC-P55VT50 55-Inch 1080p Full HD 3D Plasma TV (2012 Model) anymore. Can only find it on amazon sold by "Paul's TV" for almost $2k.

    maybe if I rebuilt my sff pc box I could cart it off to best buy and test it on some tv's eventually. Not sure what spare video card I have around though. I might have a gtx260 somewhere.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    VT50 amazon review blurbs:
    .
    http://www.amazon.com/review/R2TWLIYDCJO9NL/ref=cm_srch_res_rtr_alt_10
    .
    Excerpt from a custom review from amazon of the ZT vs VT vs Samsung F8500 http://www.amazon.com/review/R2HOPF1W5AZ0HG/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm
    .
    F8500 blurb:
    http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-PN51F8500-51-Inch-1080p-Plasma/dp/B00BCPGOD4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1381179405&sr=8-2&keywords=samsung+f8500
    .
    .
    Plasma screen cracking issue:
    http://www.avsforum.com/t/1330304/samsung-plasma-internal-crack-and-samsungs-response-ongoing
    .
    I've been reading a lot of reports of burn in on the panasonics, especially people who use them for gaming. Sorry for the quasi-thread hijack but I've been researching these in regard to 120hz input for gaming. I'm not sure plasma is the best choice for me for lounged pc gaming on as it stands now.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2013
  25. Morkai

    Morkai Limp Gawd

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    I have bought the Panasonic VT60, ill post results when i receive it and have been able to test more timings.. simply didn't have time to test more at the shop and I want it either way.

    Ill be happy with it even if it can only do 60 or 72hz, just for movies, tv and all non-fps games.
    The quality is really excellent, best screen I've ever seen, all categories.

    Some things that give some hope for higher refresh:
    *The manual lists max vertical refresh 120hz.
    *It has 2d modes for 72 and 96hz for 24p video, which suggests there might be some timings if lucky.
    *It can do 96, 100 and 120hz in 3D.

    (nvidia surround can after all have an auxiliary 4th display via hdmi, which makes it a nice addition).
     
  26. elvn

    elvn 2[H]4U

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    Thanks I look forward to the results, even with the concerns I have.

    I'm not a plasma expert by any means, but from what I've read people are saying to do a long burn in period on the phosphors before doing anything static like gaming on one.
     
  27. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    Perfect; those are your target refresh rates to attempt. Make sure you use various different porch settings, as it might only sync with certain blanking settings, or other timings. Try out Automatic, Reduced, GTF, DMT. If you are feeling adventuresome, try out slightly larger and smaller numbers in Sync Pixels values.
     
  28. Chad_Thunder

    Chad_Thunder [H]Lite

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    No buzzing on my sets but you do hear a faint whirr as the fans spin up, as far as aging the panel I think thats a good idea

    Congrats on the VT60, if you want any calibration advice I can help out
     
  29. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    OK, that's official -- I've posted it on Blur Busters as that's newsworthy to display motion blur haters.
     
  30. geok1ng

    geok1ng 2[H]4U

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    What is so special about 100Hz Mark?:confused:
    I can guess that reasons behing 96 and 120Hz but 100Hz sounds a lot like epenees:rolleyes:
     
  31. elvn

    elvn 2[H]4U

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    yeah idk.. one "confirmed" report of the Panasonic VIERA TC-P55VT50 55-Inch being able to accept 120hz input and output 120 unique screen updates at 1080p fed from a pc, and that tv is not stocked anywhere but paul's TV via amazon or paul's TV site I think since it has been outdated by a newer model. The newer model VT60 is unconfirmed regarding 1080p 120hz in/out. Both models are around $2k each as well, so as much as the blur reduction in the living room would be nice and having concerns about the supply of plasmas potentially going away, I think I'll stick with my samsung lcd "led" tv and keep the gaming to the pc for now. If those sets I mentioned were $1k or less I'd be more likely to consider it. Instead I think I'll keep that money to the pc budget (hopefully an eventual lightboost monitor and gpu upgrade(s)).
     
  32. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    100Hz is an European refresh rate. They historically 50Hz for televisions, and it's 2x50Hz. European television looks a hell lot better at 100Hz than 96Hz or 120Hz. Interpolated or not. And it's also useful reduced input lag during PAL game emulators too. (50fps@100Hz has less input lag than 50fps@50Hz), though the repeat-frame effect tradeoff can occur on strobed displays (though that's fixable by software-based black frame insertion). So, there are several use cases for 100Hz.
     
  33. Morkai

    Morkai Limp Gawd

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    Got my VT60 yesterday, no flaws on it, great quality.
    No luck with the refreshrates, however.
    I've been trying many combinations of timings and refreshrates at 72, 75, 76, 96, 100, 120hz (and most inbetween with asus gpu tweak), but sadly so far the best is 63hz, and that was with asus gpu tweak.

    I am just testing quite blindly, so any structured method for trying timings would be helpful.
    Is it best to test with or without pixel mapping and game mode? i've tried with them both on and off, no difference so far.

    If you have a calibrated set of settings i'd be grateful, simply using thx cinema atm, which looks great.
    No noise at all on mine, unless its so faint that my computer drowns it (reasonably quiet computer though).
     
  34. Chad_Thunder

    Chad_Thunder [H]Lite

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  35. Chad_Thunder

    Chad_Thunder [H]Lite

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    Mine just accepts the signal or it wont, have you tried 'pixel clock patcher'?

    I will write up an easy calibration tutorial, already have made test patterns for myself but can easily adapt them
    80% of any calibration is perfecting luminance(grayscale) and I have a solid method ;)

    How does frame rate creation work for your eyes? does it feel like 120hz to you?
     
  36. Morkai

    Morkai Limp Gawd

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    I have tried with both the nvidia pixel clock patches, yes. (and without).

    I have however seen (almost) the full potential of the panel, by viewing 3d movies interpolated with SVP to 60hz, so it runs 120hz (60hz per eye), and its really great motion and quality wise (quality a bit down due to side-by-side 3d), very minor artifacts with SVP and proper settings.

    I'm going to try enabling 3d manually, and set it to frame sequential, to see if it will make it refresh at 120hz (even if it just accepts 60hz input) to get rid of the flicker at least.

    Not exactly sure what you mean by "frame rate creation", the intelligent frame creation? i have had that off.
    I find it silly to an almost criminal level that it's possible to get perfect flicker-free image in 3d, and in 24p mode (24p signal can select up to 96hz refreshrate), but not in pc-hdmi mode.. still hope the refreshrate can be increased though, but it certainly isn't easy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013
  37. Chad_Thunder

    Chad_Thunder [H]Lite

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    Thats the one, I leave on minimum 80% of the time (off 20% for shooters mainly)

    Yes its maddening when you realize the wasted potential, like I said to the engineer did anyone actually see 125hz and didn't like it? if they put a 16gb chip running 125fps demos the whole plasma range would sell like hotcakes
    Suddenly motion would be CRT like and contrast could be doubled (within power limits) to 40,000:1+
    Not entirely their fault however, every year someone is trying to ban plasma in their province so they have to keep power way down for stupid reasons
     
  38. Morkai

    Morkai Limp Gawd

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    I tried that, still flickers just the same at 60hz, so i guess it only interpolates to refreshrate. I don't want it on for computer use anyway.
     
  39. elvn

    elvn 2[H]4U

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    Paul's tv is having a sale on the panaonic VT and ST models (check www.slickdeals.net). They are still $1600 - $1800 which is very expensive for me considering I have a decent lcd "led" tv already.


    .
    The reports of the VT models getting 120hz input and output at 1920x1080 seem like hearsay and maybe a crapshoot anyway. No detailed posts about them, and no updates regarding people who have them, other than Morkai's unsuccessful attempts so far (thanks for the updates Morkai).
    .
    If I had a sure bet at getting 120hz input and output on one I might be tempted. At around $1k I would probably jump too, but as it is I think I have to pass.