"Total War: Rome II" Developers on Female Generals: "Don’t Like It? Don’t Play It"

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Sep 23, 2018.

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  1. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    then make their own fucking games! that's all most people are saying.
     
  2. Ranulfo

    Ranulfo [H]ard|Gawd

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    I want more explosions and gun fights in my rom coms. More cat fights in mud or jello wrestling too, in bikinis.
     
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  3. Siersoren

    Siersoren [H]Lite

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    Except it's a "Historic Game" which attempts to be accurate. Your comment is in contrast to the statement of the developers. There IS a Historically inaccurate game made from the same developer, and that is Total War: Warhammer.

    Additionally, stating women MUST have only female role models is pretty simplistic thinking. I let my 5 year old daughter watch Marvel movies, she enjoys Thor the most. She doesn't have to only get hung up when a new Wonder Woman movie rolls around. She knows girls are girls and boys are boys, and makes very little distinction in boy or girl video games, while not getting wrapped up in silly leftist logic that there cannot, and must not be any distinction between two different biological genders. If she becomes a house wife later in life I'll be happy. If she becomes a Director in a Business later in life, I'll also be happy. But I'm certainly never going to tell her that women always had the right to vote, slavery never happened, and people of faith were never persecuted.

    To retort your statement: Yes. Women generals in the Roman Army is indeed crazy town. I'm glad you "Got it." Please refer to a half-hearted research document from Wikipedia on this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_ancient_Rome

    If I was to step foot in a Taco Bell, I would assume I was about to eat Mexican food.

    If I was to step foot in an airport, I would assume I was going to be purchasing a ticket or flying on a plane.

    If I purchase a strategic war simulation, I would assume some level of accuracy to the period.

    It's logic. Stating "It is what it is, get used to it" is fine, I get it. But that doesn't make me want to spend any money on it, as you haven't fixed the broken logic. :)

    Women generals do not fit in a Roman Army in that game. If you wish to whitewash history I won't stop you, but do not force feed it eh?

    Your response is 1. Without logic, 2. Uses Farce in an attempt to prove logic which does not indeed exist, and 3. Really doesn't refute my opinion in any strong way.
     
  4. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If I wanted to play an strategy game with women, I can play Sengoku Rance. If I wanted to relive and alter the course of Roman history, Rome: Total War would be on my list.

    Command and Conquer Generals had female generals. The ultimate boss general in the generals challenge was female. This was a game released in 2003, and no one made a big deal out of that because they weren't pushing a political agenda with it.

    I said it before and I'll say it again. Reduction of accuracy for the sake of gameplay is not the same thing as reduction of accuracy for political reasons. Now, if they really wanted to make gender equality representation a thing in their games, make sure to have female soldiers as well. Otherwise, it's sexism that only men are soldiers.
     
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  5. ZodaEX

    ZodaEX 2[H]4U

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    Taco Bell sells french fries now too.
     
  6. Siersoren

    Siersoren [H]Lite

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    You had one job Taco Bell. ONE JOB!
     
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  7. Rizen

    Rizen [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I'm guessing this was missed since everyone is easily caught up in faux outrage these days, but see below.

    Female generals only have a 10-15% spawn rate and Greeks, Romans, Carthage, etc have a 0% spawn rate for female generals for cultural accuracy. In other words, these complaints about immersion and "historical accuracy" are outright wrong. Some people appear to have modded the game, knowing that the internet would have a kneejerk reaction without actually understanding the facts, which is of course what happened.

    Dn77XN0XkAAkF6t.jpg
     
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  8. Merc1138

    Merc1138 2[H]4U

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    And again, claiming that people are outraged over nothing and posting nonsense to try and "prove" it. Ignores that the mod people have already brought up to fix the developers nonsense without changing all of the spawn rates to 0, Ignores the stated spawn rates when posting an image containing an update about it from the devs so you can post your own made up crap instead while claiming that it's everyone else who is full of it, then continues on about kneejerk reaction and facts after having ignored stated facts in your own post.

    It's really almost comical that you have to lie(and then out yourself on it in your own post) just to try and downplay how absurd this is.
     
  9. Sikkyu

    Sikkyu I Question Reality

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    my general is my waifu.

    Where can I buy the body pillows?
     
  10. Rizen

    Rizen [H]ardForum Junkie

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    In what way am I lying? Your second sentence makes no sense, the spawn rates I mentioned are literally from the image I posted.

    And yes, apparently people are outraged enough to review bomb the game on Steam. https://www.pcgamer.com/total-war-r...ew-bombed-on-steam-because-of-women-generals/

    The internet exists outside of the bubble of [H].
     
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  11. Merc1138

    Merc1138 2[H]4U

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    Really? Read what you said about spawn rates, read what the image you attached said about spawn rates. You're either a terrible liar or blind.
     
  12. Rizen

    Rizen [H]ardForum Junkie

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    What exactly are you taking issue with?

    upload_2018-9-25_11-13-45.png
     
  13. Jagger100

    Jagger100 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Was Taco Bell ever about Mexican food?
     
  14. Rizen

    Rizen [H]ardForum Junkie

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    The only factions with female generals are:

    • Barbarians ( 15 % Chance )

    • Ptolemaics (14 / 16 % Chance )

    • Ardiaei ( 11 % )

    • Kush (50 % )

    • Nabatea (11 %)

    • Saba (11%)

    • Desertnomads ( 13 % )

    • Numidians (12 %)
     
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  15. Merc1138

    Merc1138 2[H]4U

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    Really? That was your response, and in the process you STILL managed to ignore it?

    Oh hey, you finally included it yet somehow... you probably didn't actually read it. Maybe you really are just blind instead of a liar. Either way, even if blind... you should probably stop trying to tell people about faux outrage, fake news, etc. when you can't even read what you've been pasting into your posts.
     
  16. Rizen

    Rizen [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Okay, so, one faction in the entire game, the Kingdom of Kush, has a 50% female general spawn rate. You seem to be taking issue with this specifically, but do you even know why this was put in place?

    http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Role_Women.html

    https://www.ancient.eu/Kush/

    It's culturally relevant to the Kush. But please, feel free to keep embarrassing yourself.
     
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  17. greenman

    greenman Gawd

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    It's "mexican-inspired foods". Never was it a mexican restaurant.
     
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  18. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard as it Gets

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    I used to name my characters in games after the Kushite queens. I always thought they were pretty badass. One of them married a very famous religious leader.

    The emergence of the queen as a viable player in the politics of the day has its roots in the earliest Kushite tradition. Kushite rulers married and then passed more royal power into the hands of the queen (29). The perfect example of the expanded powers of the queen is Kushite Queen Amanirenas. In 24 B.C., she was threatened by the Roman Empire. Egypt was under the subjugation of Rome and the frontier of the Kushite/Nubian empire was seventy miles south of Syene (Assuan) (30). The Nubians were constantly raiding their Egyptian neighbors. On one of these journeys, the Kandace Amanirenas went along. When confronted, she led her armies into battle and defeated three Roman cohorts. In addition, the Kandace defaced a statue of Emperor Augustus Ceasar; bringing the head back to Nubia as a prize. This head was buried in the doorway of an important building as a final act of disrespect (31).

    During battle, the Kandace lost an eye; but this only made her more courageous (32). "One Eyed Candace," as then Roman governor Gaius Petronius referred to her, was chased by the Romans far into her own territory to Pselkis (Dakka) (33). After a three day truce, the Romans struck back. The Kandace and her armies made another stand at Primis (Kasr/Brim), but there were soundly defeated. Although Rome destroyed the religious capital of Napata, there was still the danger of retaliation by the Kandace's armies. At this point, the leaders negotiated a treaty that she was to break in a few years (34). A historian of the period remarked "This Queen had courage above her sex" (35). On a broader level, this is a telling example of a European civilization unprepared for the "fierce, unyielding resistance of a queen whose determined struggle symbolized the national pride of a people who, until then, had commanded others" (36).

     
  19. nysmo

    nysmo Gawd

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    Why do you think it was politically driven?

    And just because there are alternative games doesnt make the alternatives any good. Like saying "just play paladins if you dont like overwatch". Yeah, except one is good and the other is total shit.
     
  20. nysmo

    nysmo Gawd

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    Why does a video game get such a free pass on wholly unrealistic depictions of war and strategy yet you draw the line at what gender of heroes can be played?
     
  21. nysmo

    nysmo Gawd

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    Right back atcha
     
  22. Rizen

    Rizen [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Uhhhh. Yeah, about my reading comprehension skills...

    Anyway, I'm not wrong, everything I stated above is 100% accurate, and the quotes above clearly stated that. You are butthurt and cherry picking one specific culture in the game, which has a noted history of strong female rulers which you were seemingly unaware of. You lose the ability to cry about historical inaccuracy (as if this is the only part of the game that takes liberties with history) when you are ignorant of it yourself. Good day.
     
  23. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    what does that even mean?
     
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  24. Merc1138

    Merc1138 2[H]4U

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    I never said there were never any female generals in history, I've said repeatedly that they're few and far between. Giving one example of a female general doesn't counter my statement about 50% of them not being female. Still having to resort to lies and bullshit.
     
  25. jtm55

    jtm55 Gawd

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    Damn! I've run out of popcorn.
     
  26. haste.

    haste. [H]ard|Gawd

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    This may be one of the most ludicrous arguments I've ever read. Your comparison's are so off kilter an asinine they are nonsensical - comparing a cheap form of media to a house or an automobile, I literally laughed out loud.

    One you technically don't own the game if you read the EULA. It's a license that you have agreed to and they can make changes as they see fit. Two you think that Total War Rome II is a historically accurate documentary of the Roman empire and not a form of entertainment in which the developer is trying to reach the widest audience possible during a period of massively increasing female user base? Three, again, really? Compare a GAME to a major life-cycle purchase lol.

    You guys are grasping at straws and are too involved in your alternate video game realities if you are calling any game "historically accurate". Go take a class at your local community college and they have altered the text to facetiously include woman then come back and bitch away. I mean you must not watch any cinema/TV because the alternate realities that portray you must be going insane!
     
  27. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Ummm, it's not a player choice, not an avatar that a player "pics". The player get's choices of Generals from their "family tree" so to speak, and now the algorythim is providing a nice "equal" 50% mix of males and females to choose from for your generals in your army.

    Of course all the foot soldiers are still male, so gender equality is only represented at the top of the pyramid (y)


    EDITED: Spartan VI has a ink that shows my 50% mix is off the mark. I want to leave my original comment in place while acknowledging that it is in fact, inaccurate.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
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  28. SPARTAN VI

    SPARTAN VI [H]ardness Supreme

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    First of all, that community manager "Ella" is objectively in the wrong. I don't understand how this can be the second time in the past few months that we've had a developer studio rep tell its customers "don't like it, then don't buy our product." Right on the heels of the BFV debacle, and this idiot couldn't WAIT to repeat that same PR mess. In what world does ANY company find success in publicly telling its customers to fuck off if you don't like it? This really should be the root of the outrage, because the rest of it is rather fabricated...

    There's a lot of misinformation being spread about how female general spawn rates work in R2TW, especially in the negative reviews that are sprouting up like weeds in Steam. Darren MacNally, a former CA employee (as of last year), has no love for his former employer but exposes the misinformation and provides the rationale for how and why this works with the game's mechanics. It's not about being a SJW or pushing the wahmen into games...



    Or just skip to how spawning works in this game and why this is blown out of proportion:

     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
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  29. nysmo

    nysmo Gawd

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    You said, or at least implied that anyone who wants unrealistic combat scenarios (besides the ones already in the game since those are totally ok) to go and “make their own games”. But the dev owns this game, they did make their own game, and if YOU don’t like it then YOU go make your own.

    But if I see 2 archers engage 100 barefoot soldiers prepare to hear me whine about how unrealistic your game is.
     
  30. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Good link to a damned good video on the issue, Thanx.
     
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  31. nysmo

    nysmo Gawd

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    Do the foot soldiers represent any type of playable hero? I’ve never played this game so I don’t know what the mechanics are between a general and a peon. If these characters are just like faceless infantry that die by the thousands then of course nobody really cares about their representation anymore than what style of hair they might have.

    But the generals, if those are the key heroes that have avatars, voice lines, story arcs and an overall level of interaction that makes them feel “playable” then obviously that is where the focus is put on catering to your audience.

    I’m going to go out on a limb and say you probably knew this already and just felt like taking a cheap shot with a completely disingenuous argument.
     
  32. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

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    In the context of the overall political climate and culture shift we are currently experiencing in America, yes, I would say the decision to implement female generals instead of fixing the damn bugs is politically driven.
     
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  33. Siersoren

    Siersoren [H]Lite

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    Yep. They didn't come back and throw them into a ~5 year old game without a reason.
     
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  34. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    my response was in regard to the "girls want this, girls want that" comment.. so again wtf are you talking about?! did women make this game?
     
  35. nysmo

    nysmo Gawd

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    So whats the message? Because all I see is that women can now have a more enjoyable experience playing a game they can identify with. You know basically the same thing that enrages you because you feel underrepresented now. RTS is fun. Period piece combat is fun. Not everyone wants to play space combat sim like command & conquer, some people want to fight with bows and arrows. Let them play. Bitching and whining about a minor introduction in a goddamn video game that is so over the top unrealistic as it already is is just beyond words.

    Also patching bugs is harder than animating new heroes.
     
  36. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Wow, now you're just being deliberately obtuse. FYI, C&C Generals is not space combat.

    Over the top unrealistic? I haven't played Rome 2, but in the original Rome: Total War, everything seemed to be as historically accurate as it could be given the gameplay style they were going for. Now, based on the other article that came out today, the inclusion of more female generals was not politically driven. However, that developer's comments almost certainly were. There is no way a game developer was oblivious to the controversy around Battlefield.
     
  37. DNMock

    DNMock Limp Gawd

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    What are you talking about?

    I'm not a woman, or you, so I can't relate, but for me, my "immersion" is like getting wrapped up in a movie or book. I don't ever try to pretend I am the avatar or character in a game. Given that, and the known fact that straight males prefer looking at a nice girls ass over hairy man ass (3rd party camera example here), all I see the inclusion of more females in a game as is pandering directly to me and making the game more enjoyable for me as I get to spend more time looking at nice lady bum instead of dude rump.

    TL;DR - Fan Service is always welcome!


    And for this reason, you can't blame the trolls who started this mess on the "Right" as fan-service is the ultimate and true form of sexism. Reducing women to mere objects for your amusement. Just like me :D
     
  38. nysmo

    nysmo Gawd

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    This is as big of a horse shit cop out as any I've ever seen. We are talking about a video game.

    It's all complete fantasy. You dont get to pick and choose. You dont get to have absurdly unrealistic battle scenarios and then whine about unrealistic gender roles. If you're willing to tolerate the idea that you can build a siege tower in 15 seconds to climb a wall while 20 men in horseback just stand there throwing torches at a door then you must also tolerate females in combat and leadership roles. It's all a joke, and so is this debate.

    "Muh fantasy driven video game where I fly around as a ghostly overlord commanding a few hundred troops to wage war across an entire nation has included several other fantasy driven elements that I dont agree with, BLASPHEMY".
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
  39. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Well, I don't play the game for starters, but I did see some video and the combat units I refer too are pretty small and frankly it would be hard to tell gender at all. The Generals represent their respective armies on the "big map" so there Gender is indeed identifiable and I have seen portrait depictions as well so this is where it's noticeable to the player.

    If you think I am taking "a cheap shot", that's your opinion just as it's your opinion what others do or do not care about. I mean as long as we are being honest, saying "nobody cares" is just your fucking uninformed opinion right?

    My argument isn't an argument, it's not a cheap shot or a position. It's a fucking jab at the stupid bitch who is her own company's PR burden, who put's her personal feelings above loyalty to the people who pay her and her fellow coworkers and their futures. I mean, if she wants to sell her own ass down the river that's her choice, but she seems more then willing to sign her coworkers and company up for the same boat ride.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
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  40. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Have you even played Rome: Total War? It's one of the most realistic Rome era games you can play. No, you do not have horsemen throwing torches at a wall, you need to have siege equipment to break into any fortified town. No, you do not build siege towers in 15 seconds, you better have it ready with your army when you attack a town. You can have horsemen charge into an infantry group and the infantry will get sent flying. It has a morale system, where units can get scared and run away of their own will. Units can get tired as the battle goes on. The general getting killed will lower the morale of the army the general was commanding while boosting the morale of the opposing army. Testudo formation will render infantry almost invulnerable to archery units. Archery and ballista units can run out of ammunition. A whole lot of thought went into making Rome: Total War realistic. It's as realistic as it gets while preserving enjoyable gameplay. It is not even remotely fantasy driven.

    You seriously need to get a clue.
     
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