Total Monitor Frustration

E

EpicStory

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Feb 17, 2013
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I've been searching for a really good monitor for some times now. I would buy 6 of them to mount on my VESA system (I like multi-tasking). However I can't find one monitor that meet my criteria. Here they are:

LED backlit
Resolution 1920 x 1080 or better
Good IPS viewing angles
No IPS white or purple glow (Maybe with A-TW polarizer)
Good deep rich blacks with no contrast shift (AVA matrix are typical for that contrast shift)
No PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) for adjusting brightness
Good screen uniformity (no leak from center or even the edges of the display)
Thin Matte Bezel
Matte Anti-Glare coating
0 dead pixel policy (Warrantee)
Size 23 inches maximum (for me at least)
VESA mountable.
Price: under $350

Monitor adjustments could also be controlled by software. (Like a widget or a small program in the icon tray)

Am I dreaming or is this very very very hard to find?

I think it is possible for companies to make such a monitor but they don't really care unless we stop buying their poorly designed monitors.

If they were to make a monitor meeting my criteria and in different sizes, I think they would not be able to keep up with the demand. People would buy them off the shelves.

Anyway in the next post I'll tell you about my Monitor Nightmare history and what I'm using now while I wait for a "perfect monitor" to come out on the market).
 
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Now here is the nightmare I went thought trying to find a good modern monitor.

1) Samsung 32 inch TV: Pixel density was too low and reflections were bad. Action: Return to the store for refund.

2) Asus VE278H 27 inch: Way too bright and Pixel density would still cause vision problems for me. Dead pixel also found. Action: Return to store for refund.

3) Asus PA238QR: Horrible IPS purple glow from angles even when in front in corners. Action: Return to store for refund.

4) BenQ GW2250: Evident contrast shift on slightest move of the head. Shiny curved bezel that picks up every bit of light coming from behind. Only semi gloss screen. Action: Return to store for refund.

5) LG E2242TN Flatron: Terrible yellowing from angles. The blacks look grey and the screen is not uniform. Bad bottom light leak. One stuck pixel. Action: Return to store for refund.

6) Acer P238HL bd LED: Very bad bottom light leak and panel uniformity problems. Blacks are grey. Bad viewing angles. Bad stand. Action: Return to store for refund.

7) Asus VS247H-P: Bottom light leak. Panel uniformity is bad. One dead pixel. Action: Return to store for refund.

Finally I bought an Asus VS228H-P and so far no dead pixel. Panel uniformity is kind of acceptable. There is some edge light bleed on the left side. Color has some strange red/purple hue. Action: I'm keeping it for now because I'm tired of returning monitors.

So my current and "temporary" setup is a gathering of 6 monitors of different brands and sizes. Very ugly.

I set all my monitors on full brightness to avoid PWM and I use programs like PowerStrip and PangoBright to provide comfortable dimming of brightness.

By the way the recent graphic cards do not allow Powerstrip to dim beyond the driver's minimum. Powerstrip should really work to get cooperation from Nvidia and ATI to get access to card memory or search for a solution. But I guess it is pointless they don't care!

I don't really like my current setup but I will not spend money on a monitor unless I can get my ideal criteria met.

Given the current technology, I think engineers at monitor companies are able to design an ideal monitor. I'm withholding my money until they do.

That is my monitor frustration for now.
 
I feel you guys, I cant find anything worth buying under $1000 and seriously who spends that much on a monitor? The mainstream IPS displays are awful, bad light bleed, crazy ips glow, makes them useless for aything but office work.

I might try for that BenQ GW2760HS when it comes out but ...its BenQ and from what I hear they have the worst support going.
 
Dreaming to get all that under even 500.00. A polarizer is never on a display under 1000.00. Then the warranty with zero dead pixels? Some of your other requests will vary from panel to panel. Can't make any manufacturing guarantee's. I wish it was possible. It took me 6 years to update my monitor and it was still a bit of a trade off.
 
Most of the monitors listed are sub 200$ displays. You can't expect perfection with such a low budget, especially when buying such cheap, low end displays. IPS/PLS panels don't have deep blacks, especially if you keep the brightness cranked which also makes screen uniformity issues more obvious.
 
PhantomTaco said:
What about the korean catleaps/shimian/achieva?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Tempere...1986?pt=Computer_Monitors&hash=item1e6fcfb462

27" 1440p ips, I have a catleap (albeit the 2B OC version), and they have great displays and are close to your budget
Click to expand...

Somehow I think those don't come with a zero dead pixel warranty:)
Or any type of scaler for that matter. They'll have the IPS glow. No great blacks without contrast shift. The list is dreamland and all panel tech looks to be cancelled out:
"Good IPS viewing angles
No IPS white or purple glow (Maybe with A-TW polarizer)
Good deep rich blacks with no contrast shift (AVA matrix are typical for that contrast shift)"
So a great display that is not IPS/PLS or VA?
 
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LCD monitor selection is an exercise in tradeoffs. Always has been, still is. You can't have it all.

Drop the LED backlit requirement because you don't know why you're requiring it. LED backlights are cheaper than CCFL backlights; in practice that generally means you find them in the cheaper low-end models where the quality you're looking for isn't.

A-TW polarizer is dead and gone, all used up, because it was not the perfection that you assume it was (instead of white glow, you got green/magenta glow). You could look for used NEC 2490wuxi monitors, but good luck finding 6 that match. Oh, wait, those are 24 inches, over your maximum size of 23 inches. I don't recall hearing of any monitors smaller than 24 inches with A-TW.
 
der_bothaus said:
So a great display that is not IPS/PLS or VA?
Click to expand...

OLED?

But to be perfectly honest, at least Samsung AMOLEDs are not without issues like color shift and bad whites, which is made worse by there being not individual color channel adjustments on their phones and tablets. Plus plenty of ghosting.

I strongly suspect that when OLED goes mainstream, we will not escape the common issues of cheap monitors.

The saddest thing is that I already have a U2311H with no bleeding, excellent blacks for IPS and great colors, discrete IPS glow (if you can call it that), AG that is not too grainy, and I bought it for the same 200 EUR that the monitor manufacturers are asking nowadays for their bleedy, glowy merchandise. So tell me, what is the point of discontinuing a good monitor and experimenting with crappy LEDs instead, knowing full well that you cannot keep the bleeding under control? Even my mother's CCFL LG with TN panel looks better than plenty of IPS monitors today.
 
Drop the LED backlit requirement because you don't know why you're requiring it. LED backlights are cheaper than CCFL backlights; in practice that generally means you find them in the cheaper low-end models where the quality you're looking for isn't.
Click to expand...

Just because something is cheaper doesn't mean it's worse. Eizo has made their lineup of extremely expensive medical monitors all LED.
 
der_bothaus said:
Somehow I think those don't come with a zero dead pixel warranty:)
Or any type of scaler for that matter. They'll have the IPS glow. No great blacks without contrast shift. The list is dreamland and all panel tech looks to be cancelled out:
"Good IPS viewing angles
No IPS white or purple glow (Maybe with A-TW polarizer)
Good deep rich blacks with no contrast shift (AVA matrix are typical for that contrast shift)"
So a great display that is not IPS/PLS or VA?
Click to expand...

You can get the zero dead pixel versions too, they cost a bit more though. Also I can easily say this monitor I'm using now (the catleap) has much better color representation, accuracy, and gamut than that of my old (and fairly well rated last I checked) BenQ XL2420TX.
 
EpicStory, I think you just coined a new term for how most of us on here feel most of the time when it comes to LCD monitors:

TMF !

I think I have TMF. Some of you may have TMF and not know it. See your doctor. Early diagnosis is the key.
 
TotallyCool said:
Just because something is cheaper doesn't mean it's worse. Eizo has made their lineup of extremely expensive medical monitors all LED.
Click to expand...

The OP is looking for 23" LED monitors below $350 that don't suck. Know of any?

Which just points out the basic reason OP is failing in their endeavor: they are looking for a bunch of extremely high end features for a low end price. I'd like a card with GTX Titan performance for $80 but I'm not going to find it.
 
evilsofa said:
The OP is looking for 23" LED monitors below $350 that don't suck. Know of any?

Which just points out the basic reason OP is failing in their endeavor: they are looking for a bunch of extremely high end features for a low end price. I'd like a card with GTX Titan performance for $80 but I'm not going to find it.
Click to expand...

This sort of attitude really annoys mef and its why we're getting so regularly ripped off these days, $400 is a good chunk of change to blow on a 20 some odd inch screen and there is no reason one should cost any more then that, you really think the $1000 costs that much more to make then the $400 one? It doesnt.

For the price of some of these monitors you could go out and get yourself a really nice 60" TV, but they want that price for a little 24-27" screen? I dont think so, anyone that pays that is just adding to the problem IMHO.

The whole "Shut up and take my money" attitude needs to stop, companies dont value their customers anymore and just view us as cash cows, they feel we exist to give them money when the reality is they exist to provide us with a product and they should have to earn our hard earn dollar.

Maybe your fine with handing over your hard earned cash for some insanely marked up crap but not all of us are.
 
U53r, regardless of the possibility that monitors are currently overpriced, evilsofa is essentially correct. In the current state of the monitor industry, quality is expensive.

You may, in fact, be correct. Consumers are getting screwed. You may be overstating the issue, and there are legitimate reasons for quality displays to be expensive. Unfortunately, the reality of the situation still stands, and OP's frustration will continue.
 
tensor9 said:
U53r, regardless of the possibility that monitors are currently overpriced, evilsofa is essentially correct. In the current state of the monitor industry, quality is expensive.

You may, in fact, be correct. Consumers are getting screwed. You may be overstating the issue, and there are legitimate reasons for quality displays to be expensive. Unfortunately, the reality of the situation still stands, and OP's frustration will continue.
Click to expand...

Companies will charge whatever they think people will pay and so long as people keep paying thoes ridiculous prices things will only get worse, if you wanna see just how much they're marking some of these things up you need only look at the net profit of some of these companies. Apple didnt make almost 40 billion in NET profit last year because they are charging you a fair price of their products.

People need to stop happily handing over their cash for grossly inflated junk and maybe these companies will get their acts together because as it stands I struggle to think of many companies that actually offer you value for your dollar.
 
U53r said:
Companies will charge whatever they think people will pay and so long as people keep paying thoes ridiculous prices things will only get worse, if you wanna see just how much they're marking some of these things up you need only look at the net profit of some of these companies. Apple didnt make almost 40 billion in NET profit last year because they are charging you a fair price of their products.

People need to stop happily handing over their cash for grossly inflated junk and maybe these companies will get their acts together because as it stands I struggle to think of many companies that actually offer you value for your dollar.
Click to expand...

If you want to keep following economics, there is such a thing as a point where people don't pay. I'm pretty sure that if you take out professional purchases of high end monitors (for use at work and such) the amount sold is probably pretty small, which would indicate not many casual users (or gamers) purchase them. The only reason why you think there's so many (and complain about it) is because you're on a forum dedicated to hardware, overclocking, and modding. Obviously the people in this forum are nowhere near being a representative sample of the total demand for these products, so how could you possibly make the assumption that they're selling them in huge amounts?

And bringing up the apple comparison is stupid sorry. It's like complaining that toyotas are getting too pricey and then citing a rolls royce as an example. Apple has never, and will never, play the pricing game. They have a perceived quality and hip advantage over normal pcs (this isn't necessarily my view, just fact), and people are willing to pay for premiums, perceived or otherwise.

To sum it up, you don't like it? Don't buy, but don't go around bitching at everyone else for buying it.
 
Yes the term TMF (Total Monitor Frustration) should be coined as many of us are spending countless hours reading reviews while searching for a monitor.

- PWM should be removed from all but the cheapest monitors. This is only common sense. You would not sit in front of a strobe light for long period of time. Maybe our eyes don't see the pulsing light but the brain might.

- As for the IPS glow I could live with it as long as it is white and that I can dim the backlight safely (NO PWM)

- Companies could easily make a non-PWM monitor for under $350.


**** I had a crazy idea ****: what about the use of another panel matrix as light source. Let me explain. Take the cheapest AVA panel matrix like the GW2250 that comes at $89 or even lower. Replace the light source of an IPS panel with the GW2250 panel.

So we have two monitors in one: The GW2250 could be used just to control dimming and maybe even the IPS glow. And the IPS panel would give the actual image.

If I were an engineer I would at least try it. It would not cost a fortune to make.

And this is jut ONE idea from a nobody like me. Just imagine if you put a bunch of engineers in a room and tell them to build the ultimate monitor.
 
Sites that review monitors (like TFT Central) should be harsher about things like PWM and IPS glow in their articles.

And we as customers should demand more from companies. I would pay more than $350 if I could get a monitor with all the specs in the OP.
 
The problem with the OP's wish list isn't really price. He did mention a price range up to $350. $350 doesn't sound like much in the monitor world (for high end monitors), but also keep in mind he said a max. of 23". So a nice 21.5-23" should be doable at that price. The problem isn't so much price, but simply that his criteria doesn't exist in a single panel. I'll also say that I agree that I'd like those things in a monitor too ... but unfortunately I don't see how it's all possible.

Deep blacks (rules out all IPS models).
Good IPS viewing angles (rules out all VA models)

So right there those two criteria cancel each other out. It's impossible to have VA blacks with IPS angles (unless perhaps with OLED, which isn't available really). No need to worry about glow, or bleed, or anything else -- there is no way to even find a monitor that even meet the above two criteria.

The OP will need to pick whatever tradeoffs he can live with. There are pricier 23" models from Eizo and NEC that will have better screen uniformity, but still won't have super deep blacks. And even at $400-$500 each, would still have IPS glow.

My recommendation would be to first pick either VA or IPS. Trade off blacks or IPS angles. Then if you want PWM free, it narrows your choices down ... so pick one of the handful that exist and live with its limitations. Something like an Eizo 2336 that is mostly PWM free (at $400ish) may match at least some of your criteria. No monitor will match all of them, regardless of price.
 
EpicStory said:
Sites that review monitors (like TFT Central) should be harsher about things like PWM and IPS glow in their articles.
.
Click to expand...

"IPS glow" is on ALL IPS/PLS panels that do not have a polarizer which means it exists on all but 5 display's ever made. HP DeamThing @2000.00+, Eizo CG246 @2000.00, NEC LCD2490WUXI (discontinued), LG had one can't remember model number, and throwing out a random one that probably exists. Anyway, they are rare and really expensive. They can be harsher but it would be an obnoxious complaint with no end in sight.
Namelessme has the best idea to actually cure the "Frustration". It just may not be the best tasting medicine.
 
EpicStory said:
**** I had a crazy idea ****: what about the use of another panel matrix as light source. Let me explain. Take the cheapest AVA panel matrix like the GW2250 that comes at $89 or even lower. Replace the light source of an IPS panel with the GW2250 panel.

So we have two monitors in one: The GW2250 could be used just to control dimming and maybe even the IPS glow. And the IPS panel would give the actual image.

If I were an engineer I would at least try it. It would not cost a fortune to make.

And this is jut ONE idea from a nobody like me. Just imagine if you put a bunch of engineers in a room and tell them to build the ultimate monitor.
Click to expand...

AFAIK, the reason IPS monitors have so much bleed is precisely because it takes more light to penetrate their matrix. As I understood it, stronger backlight = higher risk of bad uniformity and bleed; VA panels apparently don't need so much light pumped out by their backlights because the panels allow light to pass through more easily. I guess this also allows them to have such good black levels.

So if you tried your solution, the hybrid IPS with VA backlight would be extremely dim, with not enough light passing through the matrix.

Disclaimer: I'm not a specialist, so I may have misunderstood the whole thing.
 
IPS glow is not backlight bleed. That is called "backlight bleed". IPS glow is the loss of contrast when blacks are viewed off angle. Sometimes seen as a purple hue, sometimes quite whitish. Some have it more harsh than others but they all exhibit it. Backlight bleed is just bad engineering but more often than not glitches in manufacturing.
 
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