Tor Developer Dodges The FBI By Leaving The US

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I'm not sure if you are helping or hurting your case when you flee to Germany to avoid questioning by the FBI. If there weren't charges against you before, there could be now. :eek:

FBI agents are currently trying to subpoena one of Tor's core software developers to testify in a criminal hacking investigation, CNNMoney has learned. But the developer, who goes by the name Isis Agora Lovecruft, fears that federal agents will coerce her to undermine the Tor system -- and expose Tor users around the world to potential spying.
 

InorganicMatter

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The CNN title is a bit misleading. The tor developer is not under criminal investigation. The tor developer is an unconnected third party that the FBI is trying to make testify for a criminal investigation they are running on someone else. With that background, their ulterior motives become clear:

Lovecruft, one of the few people intimately familiar with Tor's inner workings, feared she would be pressured to assist as well.
The FBI couldn't get their "you must help us hack into stuff you made" precedent from Apple and terrorists, so looks like they are moving on to the next best target: tor, the big bad dark network that child pornographers use.
 
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Tor must still be pretty secure if the FBI is still attacking the people associated with it. Then again only future terrorists and pedophiles want privacy. /s
 

Roykirk

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There's a lot more to the story than is in this article. Lovecruft has a right to be worried. There is a Techdirt article from May 5 that goes into far more detail about the FBI's actions and tactics in this case, and the creeper factor cannot be oversold. I can't link it here as I don't have enough posts yet to include links, but do a search on Techdirt for her name and you should find it.
 

ShamisOMally

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"Her mother immediately called Ben Rosenfeld, an attorney in San Francisco who specializes in technology and surveillance law.

On Dec. 2, he called Agent Burnett and presented himself as Lovecruft's lawyer. Lovecruft told CNNMoney she had been willing to meet the FBI with her attorney present. But Rosenfeld was told by agents that they would circumvent him and approach Lovecruft directly."

The public at this point should know about this and be 100% entirely outraged, if the law process is being circumvented entirely by bullshit like this.

Once somebody declares "Talk to my lawyer" even if they've been charged OR not charged with something, government officials from then on legally have to oblige.

You cannot refuse a US Citizen in the USA rights to a lawyer no matter what the crime. Period.
 

InorganicMatter

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Once somebody declares "Talk to my lawyer" even if they've been charged OR not charged with something, government officials from then on legally have to oblige.

You cannot refuse a US Citizen in the USA rights to a lawyer no matter what the crime. Period.
I don't have details on this case, but I'm sure the FBI's excuse is "she's not the one under investigation, so she doesn't get a lawyer."
 

Stiletto

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I've been reliably informed that, in fact, she fled the US over an offensive reference to a dongle.
 

pothb

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I don't have details on this case, but I'm sure the FBI's excuse is "she's not the one under investigation, so she doesn't get a lawyer."
Actually, that makes me wonder.... can you not still get a representative, regardless? I remember similar things before and that seem to point to otherwise, but that seems messed up if that is the case.
 

ShamisOMally

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I don't have details on this case, but I'm sure the FBI's excuse is "she's not the one under investigation, so she doesn't get a lawyer."
A government official once being told they must contact your lawyer from then on can only contact your lawyer if they need to talk to you. Period. End of discussion.

It does not matter if she's been served with a warrant or not, the very act of telling a government official "I will only talk to you with my lawyer present" or "I demand you talk to my lawyer" means from then on legally they can only contact you with your lawyer present or only contact your lawyer.

If you have stated they have to speak to your lawyer, they have to speak to your lawyer.

I think the law that outlines this is created in like the 1970's (Miranda Rights) due to bullying by government officials to the public -IE- if you've stated they have to speak to your lawyer or that you will only talk to them with a lawyer present, they have to do so.

And yes she was not charged/arrested/served with a warrant, but the basis of the Miranda Rights was created around other laws that once you've demanded they only speak to your lawyer or you will only answer questions with a lawyer present, they can only do so from then on.

Also this is why she was extremely smart and MADE them talk only to her lawyer, unless she's been charged they can not legally bring her in for anything, and like she said if she went to talk to them even with her lawyer present if she had been handed a gag order at the time there would be nothing she could do from then on in talking about this to the public.

This is why you always demand government officials only talk to your lawyer, unless you're being charged or brought in for questioning on a charge they legally cannot serve you papers in partisan through your lawyer.

Papers have to be served to you directly, they cannot be served via third party.

This is why a lot of lawyers will do tricks to serve ppl papers with, one of the classic ones is dressing up as a delivery person of something like say package delivery or a florist delivery, once they've confirmed your Id ("Are you X?" "Yes") they can serve you papers for whatever.

P.S. Ugh, I know a disgusting amount of law just from shit I took 20 years ago in my law courses in highschool, but I am in no way or means a lawyer
 
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Yakk

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Winston? Isis Agora Lovecruft? What are you doing?

I think we need to send you to room 101...
 

viscountalpha

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"Her mother immediately called Ben Rosenfeld, an attorney in San Francisco who specializes in technology and surveillance law.

On Dec. 2, he called Agent Burnett and presented himself as Lovecruft's lawyer. Lovecruft told CNNMoney she had been willing to meet the FBI with her attorney present. But Rosenfeld was told by agents that they would circumvent him and approach Lovecruft directly."

The public at this point should know about this and be 100% entirely outraged, if the law process is being circumvented entirely by bullshit like this.

Once somebody declares "Talk to my lawyer" even if they've been charged OR not charged with something, government officials from then on legally have to oblige.

You cannot refuse a US Citizen in the USA rights to a lawyer no matter what the crime. Period.

When did we become a police state? Wtf?
 

DocFaustus

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I wish we knew the FBI's justification for not following the proper channels and talking to her with her lawyer present.

If they truly believed their motives were on the up-and-up, they should have been able to assume that a phone call to her and her lawyer may have convinced her to show up and discuss the matter in more detail. Since they didn't believe a phone call would suffice, I have to assume that they knew full well their shit wasn't going to fly. Their reluctance to include the attorney is a huge red flag.
 

bloodhawke83

I Strike Fear into the Hearts of the Masses
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why didn't she flee to a country where we don't have a fingers deep in?
 

Lith1um

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Basically, everything that children are taught about America is a lie in some way or another. Our justice system is a fucking joke, our electoral system is a fucking joke, and we've written our own version of history for decades.
 

Retronym

Something big is coming.
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Basically, everything that children are taught about America is a lie in some way or another. Our justice system is a fucking joke, our electoral system is a fucking joke, and we've written our own version of history for decades.
Oh, please.

Next thing you'll tell me is we have secret courts.
 

buhbuhfet

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well, if he doesn't want to talk to them, he doesn't have to, i'm sure they will have no problem making up a 100 bogus charges, like they have been doing for decades
 
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