Today's Battlefield V Patch Adds DLSS and Optimizes Ray Tracing

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by AlphaAtlas, Feb 12, 2019.

  1. Maddness

    Maddness [H]ard|Gawd

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    It will be interesting to see how it is implemented in Metro Exodus that comes out this week. That is if it is enabled from the get go.
     
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  2. oldmanbal

    oldmanbal [H]ard|Gawd

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    yes but msaa does blur image clarity overall. Smaa has the least blur comparatively so i usually prefer it over MSAA visually to a certain point, depending on resolution, but MSAA can take a serious fps hit depending on the title. As a fun fact, 8xMSAA on Crysis 1 still crashes a lot of computers.

    I haven't been able to use DLSS and make comparisons myself on my own screen so I wouldn't state observations on it until I've done so. There just isn't enough examples across titles available to make an informed decision. SSAA until now has been the best method available with of course a massive performance cost. Depending on the size of your monitor you might not really need an AA method if you can render high enough and downsample.

    A lot of people never talk about the frame time lag increase from various AA methods. Since they take longer to compute, it typically reduce the responsiveness (adds lag) of the game as well. In casual gaming you might not notice it but for enthusiasts that play sherlock holmes over every last fps, it's quite substantial. In as much, many people never really feel how smooth and responsive a game can be without AA, nor how crisp the actual textures were meant to be, so they don't know what they're missing.
     
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  3. SPARTAN VI

    SPARTAN VI [H]ardness Supreme

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    So why is the other AA technology demonstrated in the GN video much better at smoothing fine lines given the same absence of data? I think the approximation algorithm they're using is averaging the neighboring pixels and not taking into context what the object it's attempting to approximate really is. There needs to be some built-in heuristics to guide the AI when it comes to objects like fences and wires: hey AI, this is a wire and it's probably going to continue going in a straight line. Don't average too much of the empty space around it, mmmkay?
     
  4. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger [H]ard as it Gets

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    Shame rush is only coming back temporarily rather than permanently :(.
     
  5. InquisitorDavid

    InquisitorDavid [H]Lite

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    SMAA's temporal aliasing can be pretty terrible, though. TAA was meant to combat that. The only significant roadblock in DLSS is the fact that execution is subjective based on the Neural Net: you have to train it (meaning feed it a lot of 'perfect' renders: time and money), and it will try to 'guess' the result, (meaning there can be artifacts in the worst-case scenario, which will require more Neural Net training to fix).
     
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  6. AlphaAtlas

    AlphaAtlas [H]ard|Gawd Staff Member

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    Other AA methods start with the full resolution image.

    And some algorithms are remarkably "smart"

    https://github.com/tyshiwo/MemNet


    supp_SR.png

    That one’s from 2017 too, some newer methods have even better results.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
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  7. jologskyblues

    jologskyblues [H]Lite

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    From my understanding, the main difference from other AA solutions is that DLSS is hardware-accelerated which leverages Turing's tensor cores in intelligently upscaling and reconstructing the rendered scene into a high-quality final image based on DL profiles of the game provided by NV via driver/GFE. The better the DL profile, the better the resulting image quality.
     
  8. Full Otto

    Full Otto [H]Lite

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    The biggest issue isn't what performance or IQ trade-offs exist. The biggest issue is that it relies on nVidia investing in a title to make it work, or being payed to do so. They do all the training on their end, then add a profile to a driver for the local card to use for processing the rendered frame. It's basically The Matrix. If you want to fly a helicopter, load the training profile for flying a helicopter. If you want to kill the jaggies in your favorite game, load the training profile for that game. So if nVidia doesn't feel the need to make a profile for your game, or the dev can't afford to have them do it, then no DLSS for you. How long has it taken to get this into an actual game, with that game being their RTX showpiece nonetheless. What happens when DLC is released? What hope is there for older or indie games? This doesn't bode well for widespread support. If they come out with a universal profile or some other method to expand the DLSS library, then great. Either way, it's only as good as the library that supports it.

    Ray tracing is in almost the same boat, with the difference being it's more about when, not if it gets adopted widely. Any optimizations made at this point are about figuring out how few rays they can use and still make it worth using over the raster method. We have a ways to go before enough silicon is dedicated to it before RT goes mainstream. There just isn't enough hardware present to make it more then a novelty, right now. On the bright side, this can still be accomplished by the dev investing in their own game, rather then having to convince/pay the graphics vendor to do it.

    It'll be fun watching video cards evolve again, as the RT budget overtakes the raster budget, and the 'old' raster functions get spun off to dedicated cards for all those jobs they've been found to be so good at.
     
  9. focbde

    focbde Gawd

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    The news here is that someone actually bought an RTX 2070 - I thought it was pretty much accepted that they were utterly hopeless, as they don't even have the horsepower to provide ray-tracing at decent levels of performance?

    Note: Not throwing shade, and if it works for you, it works... but wouldn't have expected many [H] readers to have bought one after the reviews pretty much all damned it. I guess it's possible some bought them instead of 1080s after the prices for those went through the roof and they became hard to find.
     
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  10. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It doesn't make much sense to buy a 1080 if the 2070 provides the same performance for the same price; same for 2080 vs 1080Ti, or 2060 vs 1070. Why not get the newer tech at no cost, if you're buying new?
     
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  11. focbde

    focbde Gawd

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    The 'buying new' is the key there - me, I'd get a used 1080 seeing as the 2070 can't really do ray-tracing anyway, same with used 1080ti vs 2080. Plus he was referring to wanting to use ray-tracing, which the 2070 can't really do - not at a decent performance level.

    Very tricky with the RTX cards because the actual performance improvement was so lacklustre generationally speaking, and raytracing games are pretty much really MIA.

    My take on this whole generation from Nvidia is - SKIP! Wait for next...
     
  12. TheOne&OnlyZeke

    TheOne&OnlyZeke 100% Irish

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    I've got to try and play more of this. I've not yet finished a Tides of War challenge...and they are easy enough
     
  13. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I'll continue to remain optimistic with respect to ray tracing, especially with DLSS in the mix. I also don't look too closely at used stuff, especially with mining in the mix- but in general, not for my primary workstation. Tinkering systems? Nearly all used.
     
  14. focbde

    focbde Gawd

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    I don't really mind used stuff - got a used 1080 myself now in my main rig. There's debate about the whole 'used for mining' argument too, as tests have shown (apparently) that it just isn't an issue, sort of like a high mileage car, but which has all highway miles vs. town stop/start miles.
     
  15. odditory

    odditory [H]ardness Supreme

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    Warranty and resale value tails are longer in going new 2000 series instead of a 1000 series at this point- wouldn't touch another 1000 series card because of it. Resale on a 1080 will fall fast once first round of 2070/2080 price cuts happen.

    The excellent, improved NVENC is a another big draw for 2000 series.

    I'm still happy with a 1080Ti but it's getting replaced by a 2080 or 2080Ti in short order for the mentioned reasons, in spite of the narrative that angry gamers who don't understand supply and demand have tried to create - that version 1 of raytracing in ONE game is the 2000 series' whole and only identity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
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  16. Snowdensjacket

    Snowdensjacket Limp Gawd

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    I can play BFV at my resolution at ultra everything with ultra ray tracing single player just fine. And since I only play single player it works just fine. But yeah there's no getting through to you guys with your relentless propaganda. I've tried. You'll just continue to spout the same nonsense no matter what.

    Nvidia at no point in the run up to launching the RTX cards said that they will only be implementing DLSS at 4K. They never said that. But it appears that is exactly what they are doing. That's my point.

    I don't really care about how you think I should have gone through some process to buy a used card that's the same speed as my new card but with less features and no warranty. That's dumb. Why would I do that? I needed a new card I bought the one in my price range.

    But I chose the rtx 2070 over a Vega 64 in part due to Nvidias loudly stated claims about DLSS. And at no point did they say that they will only be implementing DLSS at 4k resolution.
     
  17. Chris_B

    Chris_B [H]ardness Supreme

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  18. focbde

    focbde Gawd

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    Settle down there. I didn't even mention DLSS, and what I wrote was in no way propaganda.
     
  19. focbde

    focbde Gawd

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    I don't believe the latter and I'm interested to see what is to come with raytracing, but don't think this gen is the gen to aim for - which is of course always the case with anything new! :)
     
  20. Snowdensjacket

    Snowdensjacket Limp Gawd

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    I never said you mentioned DLSS. You and other guys keep claiming that ray tracing is fake and unusable. It is not. My 11 year old plays BFV single player with ultra ray tracing turned on with an RTX 2070 all the time. And I've said that many many times but you all keep claiming that you can't use ray tracing. Yes you can.

    In DLSS news Nvidia just posted this :

    https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/battlefield-v-metro-exodus-ray-tracing-dlss/

    Here is the DLSS support list :

    • 3840x2160: All RTX GPUs
    • 2560x1440: RTX 2060, 2070, and 2080
    • 1920x1080: RTX 2060 and 2070
    So I'll be able to use DLSS if I game in normal resolution and don't use wide-screen. Better than it being only 4k.

    Bizarrely enough if you have a 2080 TI you literally can not use DLSS at any resolution except 4k. Do they have to set up DLSS not just for every game and every resolution, but for each video card as well?
     
  21. Seventyfive

    Seventyfive [H]ard|Gawd

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    That's exactly right. My friend's GPU died and he bought a 2070 for $440. Couldn't find a 1080 anywhere near that. Plus it's about 5-10% faster from what I can tell, plus it has DLSS. I told him flat out it's too slow for ray tracing but if it lets him play something at "4k" (in quotes) by using DLSS, that's a good value for $440.
     
  22. TheMadHatterXxX

    TheMadHatterXxX 2[H]4U

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    What the fuck? Who even asked for that?
     

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  23. linuxdude9

    linuxdude9 Gawd

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    NVidia definitely has a small time frame to work with for the NN to be operating on games in real-time(a few ms). I wonder if NVidia is incorporating object motion vectors into the training data since those can be sourced directly from the game engine. Processing pancake 2D video doesn't have that available.

    BTW, since you're working with some NN video upscaling, maybe you'd know. Are there any NN tools trained for dealing with cleaning up artifacts and detail loss that accompany VHS recordings?
     
  24. AlphaAtlas

    AlphaAtlas [H]ard|Gawd Staff Member

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    It might be easier to generate them on the fly, actually, as the algorithm would need pixel/pixel block motion vectors, not ones tied to objects. ReShade's motion blur algorithm already does that, IIRC, and SVP can do it pretty quickly too.

    As for VHS restoration, it depends on the artifacts. NN filters are really good at sharpening and upscaling to squeeze more detail out of a VHS, but based on what I've worked with, I'd use "regular" avisynth or vapoursynth filters (a handful of which can be GPU accelerated) for stuff like dirt, noise, lines and other VHS weirdness. I'd be happy to help if you PM me or ping me in another thread, but otherwise, the doom9 forums are a good place to start.
     
  25. akaliel

    akaliel Limp Gawd

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    Yeah this is not true. For the initial launch of BFV, the 2070 had some pretty bad ray tracing performance and everybody glued onto those headlines. Then in early December, Dice released a patch that fixed that. All the Turing cards saw their raytracing performance jump massively. At 1080p, on ultra with RTX on, the 2070 gets about 70 fps.
     
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  26. AlphaAtlas

    AlphaAtlas [H]ard|Gawd Staff Member

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  27. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ard as it Gets

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    That is really fucking stupid. Why are the people with the highest end GPUs the ones locked out of the most resolution options? Actually, why is any GPU locked out of using it at any resolution? This makes no freaking sense.
     
  28. focbde

    focbde Gawd

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    I never said it's unusable, I said the performance with it is questionable. My own personal opinion of it is also that, in BFV at least, the difference is negligible and not worth the performance hit - hopefully we'll see other titles soon that utilise it more, however it's also possible that the performance hit will be even greater with higher utilisation.

    Agree the situation with DLSS is absolutely bizarre...
     
  29. focbde

    focbde Gawd

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    It's true the patch made a huge difference, but then they implemented variable rate DXR basically, which has the effect of reducing the amount of ray tracing being done, or put another way, reducing unnecessary ray-tracing... so it wasn't a magic pill, and with future titles utilising DXR more heavily, we'll see even larger performance hits I think? Not sure on this, but just my thoughts.

    I don't think 1080p is a great example to use for comparative performance - I highly doubt that many people who are buying high-end cards are going to be gaming at 1080p, and only the 2080Ti can reliably average 60fps with Ultra settings at 1440p even POST-patch.
     
  30. focbde

    focbde Gawd

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    Yeah, not sure I get that either... you'd hope there is SOME technical reason which makes sense, but I'm struggling to think what it might be.
     
  31. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ard as it Gets

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    Metro supports DLSS at 1440p for all RTX cards so its obviously an artificial limit imposed for...Some reason.
     
  32. focbde

    focbde Gawd

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    Very odd...

    I just finished watching the Metro Exodus RTX On/Off comparison and must admit I came away very disappointed... just don't see the benefit really - sure, there are some improvements noticeable when analysing it in detail, but whilst playing? Not so sure...
     
  33. odditory

    odditory [H]ardness Supreme

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    It's been very apparent that 99% of the naysaying about raytracing - or at least RTX - is just misplaced anger about pricing. They'll argue it but there's no other rationale. And I kind of understand it.

    A rational adult with an innate curiosity and excitement for new tech understands that raytracing is always where things would eventually go once cards got powerful enough, it's always been the dream, and from first gen of it on a single game you can't really draw sweeping conclusions about it. It will continue to iterate and improve, AMD will eventually jump on and then everyone will be able to relax and enjoy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  34. Chris_B

    Chris_B [H]ardness Supreme

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    Amd have been doing ray tracing in the pro space for years. Let's not pretend that a GPU company is nieve about it, they know it has a part to play and have said so. So I don't get where you're getting that last line of bs from.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  35. Maddness

    Maddness [H]ard|Gawd

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    That's pretty understandable. The price of these new cards are just to expensive for what they add. I know that DLSS and consumer Ray Tracing are new and there will be teething issues as there always are with new technology. But so far the visuals certainly look like the need work with DLSS and Ray Tracing as expected has a huge performance impact.

    At the end of the day the fact remains Nvidia needs to drop the price of this generation if they want people to jump onboard.
     
  36. Hakaba

    Hakaba Gawd

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    From my perspective RTX would be cool/better utilized in story driven games, adventure games (TR, Uncharted) and sim games. I don’t see it useful for BFV since it’s too fast pace. If you are moving slow enough to enjoy the visual enhancements you are probably already dead or about to die.

    I am disappointed that Nvidia tried to push RTX as the next best thing, especially with 0-1 games supporting it with a post launch patch. They should have either had 30+ games supporting RTX at launch or sell cards with the damn cores removed for people who do not want to be an early adopter.

    Either way, kudos on performance increases, just a little to late when RTX is the highlight of your cards.
     
  37. Maddness

    Maddness [H]ard|Gawd

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    It's already hard when you have to wait on game devs to release their games or add it as a feature when generally they concentrate on game bugs and performance first. You only need to look at DX features and how long that takes to be implemented.
     
  38. NKD

    NKD [H]ardness Supreme

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    Thats confusing. I just swapped to a 2080ti, I have 2560x1440 144hz. 3D mark worked fine for DLSS on 2080ti. Looks like that is not correct. If it is, its stupid as fuck. lol
     
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  39. NKD

    NKD [H]ardness Supreme

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    So from what I am reading here. Exodus does support DLSS and RTX on all GPUs at 2560x1440. Its just battlefield 5. So basically they went lazy and assumed if you have 2080ti you really don't need DLSS at 2560x1440 in BFV.

    https://wccftech.com/nvidia-geforce-game-ready-418-91-whql-drivers-rtx-dlss-bfv-metro-exodus/

    "Metro Exodus
    features two ray tracing detail levels: High and Ultra. In motion, the difference is hard to discern, so it is recommended that users play at High settings to benefit from faster framerates. And of course, you can also enable DLSS for up to 30% faster performance throughout the game.

    DLSS helps the most when the GPU is under maximum load and is available for the following settings:

    • 3840×2160: Ray Tracing On or Off: RTX 2070, 2080, and 2080 Ti
    • 2560×1440: Ray Tracing On: All RTX GPUs
    • 1920×1080: Ray Tracing On: RTX 2060 and 2070"
    But then when you scroll down it has Nvidia notes that say what Snowdenjacket posted, so not sure if that is overall or just for BFV.
     
  40. Algrim

    Algrim [H]ard|Gawd

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    Ray tracing has been in the pro space for years for both vendors and Intel. What's “new” is real-time ray tracing for games. nVidia has the hardware for it in the RTX line of cards. AMD has as of yet to have the hardware to support it.
     
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