Did you watch the video? $60 more than MSRP. Just like every other release that came before that charge a small premium for their higher end parts.
Still waiting on those $800-900 AIBs that are inferior to FE...
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Time to Take Moore's Law is Dead Nvidia Article Seriously...
- Thread starter kirbyrj
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Did you watch the video? $60 more than MSRP. Just like every other release that came before that charge a small premium for their higher end parts.
Still waiting on those $800-900 AIBs that are inferior to FE...
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Given we have not seen a lot of reviews yet or any true street pricing, but you seem to be arguing that MSRP AIB cards will be as good or better than the FE cards? The BOM cost on the FE cards is huge when compared against previous percentage margin cards due to the huge cooler cost and PCB cost. I would suggest we have not seen this fully shake out in either direction, but the data seems to point one way rather than the other.
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Hehe, that is rich. I am not sure that is what he said. But twist it up any way you like.
Don’t back track now. You were claiming +$100-200 for inferior cards. This is +$50-$60 for superior cards. Big difference from what a couple of you have been repeating and no difference from previous releases.
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Historically we have seen base cards come in $100 below FE prices IIRC. Anyway, y'all have fun, got some wrenching to do in the garage. Neighbors kid knocked the rear control arms off his ride the other driving like an idiot and gotta help him get it back on the road.
you guys went from making an argument that we are gonna pay a couple hundred more than MSRP for shittier cards to saying we won’t find a better card for MSRP than the FE. Excuse me while I laugh my ass off at the moving goal posts.
You’re putting words in my mouth. Someone made a claim and I’m simply asking them to back it up.
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Please quote me where I stated that. You are making stuff up, and quoting my post, so I assume this is directed at my statements.
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Then what exactly where you saying on your side of the argument? I am sorry if I am inferring incorrectly.
I also said “you guys” referring to the folks who’ve been referencing and/or repeating MLIDs claims or patting others on the back who are. You know what you’ve said and what’s been said. No need for me to spoon feed anyone.
About $800... So
There were plenty of folks that got their hands on PS5s from stores that never even saw stock on 3080's... So, while there is limited stock they were to be found. I would also guess there were more people competing for PS5s than 3080s, so the fact that they were easier to come by and are allowing preorders so people can get on the list and know they are locked in at actual msrp. It's not that people don't expect low stock at launch, but this was rediculous and I haven't seen (besides a tweet with email headers that may or may not be real) anybody who was able to get an FE model. If they were truly incompetent to not put any bot protection in and allowed scalpers to buy them all, then it's not saying much either. 2080 and 2080ti were limited (2080ti more so), but they weren't this bad. Feels like nvidia launched early to beat AMD knowing they had nowhere near enough stock, but put out the FE just for the reviews. I don't know for sure and nobody will, but it was not a smooth launch to say the least. I'm sure we'll figure out more in the coming months to see if they have some more stock popping up or if you see FE models constantly out of stock.
kirbyrj
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You've been spinning this same lie since the beginning of the thread. I NEVER said 10GB AIB cards would be $899. You made that up yourself and attributed it to me and MLID.
All I ever said is that you wouldn't be able to get a $699 card that was as good as the FE. When there is stock of FE cards readily available at Nvidia and well reviewed $699 AIB cards readily available, then I'll admit it was a conspiracy theory. So far, that hasn't happened.
I swear I've responded with $699 about 100 times in this thread already, but you don't listen.
DooKey
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Will really be a moot point if the FE eventually comes into good stock and sells at $699. Let's give it a couple of months for supply to level out. NV did say they just started manufacturing the cards last month.
Ahhh ok got it. So This whole time you’ve been making a big deal out of something that has happened with every release ever. Sounds legit.
kirbyrj
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You're right. I don't have any of the cards in my hand to compare it to, but the BOM on the $699 Nvidia card is somewhat more than what the $699 on the AIB card is going to be mostly due to the cooler. The cooler had a BOM on it's own of $150+. It is estimated that there is a 40% margin on the FE card. That's not nearly enough for Nvidia which usually is looking for 60% margin. Rather than produce cards that aren't as profitable as they would like, they'll let the AIBs charge whatever they want. If an AIB wants to make up the margin, you'll have a more expensive card. If they want to cheap out on BOM, you'll get a $699 card. So right off the bat the FE is (in theory) superior due to the more expensive cooler.
Next, Nvidia uses better binned chips in their FE cards. Let's use the 2080Ti as an example. Nvidia's FE pricing was $1199, and they said cards would be available at $999. Very few cards were $999 and they were based off the lower binned GPU while the higher binned GPUs went toward the higher end models that were $1199+. Off the top of my head, I think it was the TU-102 400 and 400A. The difference was the binning.
So, Nvidia sent out better card samples with higher end cooling and better binned GPUs to reviewers. You have the "Day 1" review which is all people remember about the card. It rarely gets re-reviewed with different drivers, etc. A review of a $699 Nvidia built card may or may not correspond to the $699 card made by an AIB which is likely going to have an inferior cooler and a lower binned GPU.
Yes, AIB's can use better binned GPUs and then have extravagant cooling, but are they willing to accept at 40% margin like Nvidia? Probably not, hence you have higher pricing.
This is what MLID is arguing. Nvidia is doing this on purpose because they want to associate the $699 number with the 3080 even though it is unlikely you will be able to buy a 3080 at $699. Hence, they want their cake and to eat it too as he says.
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kirbyrj
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Like the 2080Ti release? Oh wait, it didn't happen like that. They upcharged on the FE by $200 and then people went nuts because they couldn't ever buy a $999 card like Nvidia said. This time they took a hit on the margin so people remember one number...you guessed it...$699.
kirbyrj
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I agree. MLID is saying that won't happen and it will be perpetually sold out. If there is a $699 card available readily, then MLID is wrong.
kirbyrj
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Once again...never said that. I said that a $699 AIB card is not as good as a $699 FE card.
If you're going to make up random comments and attribute them to me, at least have the decency to quote where I said it.
You said they would have crappier binning, inferior cooking and cost more. If I get bored enough to sift through the BS that’s been spread I’ll be sure to quote it. Otherwise just use common sense that this topic wouldn’t be what it is if “that’s all you said”
kirbyrj
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Crappier binning, yes I said that about $699 cards
Inferior cooling, yes I said that about $699 cards
Cost more, no I never said that because we're talking about $699 cards
This whole thread is about an illusory $699 price point and what you get for it. Pay more attention.
Can you pay more than $699 and get a better card? Why yes, yes you can. Case in point your linked $760 MSI card. Is that $699, no, no it isn't. Is a card that's the equal in terms of binning and cooling of Nvidia's FE card ever going to be on sale for $699? Highly unlikely and ultimately the FE won't be stocked. Why is that? Because Nvidia wants a higher margin, but wants buyers to remember the $699 price.
After rebates end and AIBs add in higher margins along with their BOM costs on their coolers, 3080's are going to be more expensive.
D
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EVGA (Jacob) said they have thousands of cards coming next week. We’ll see how true that is, but looks like FUD from MLID as usual.
My side of the argument is that MLID's claims are far fetched and we won't know if there's any truth to it for months.
kirbyrj
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We'll see what the price is for those cards. This whole thread is about price. Obviously there will be cards to buy.
That's not what we're seeing so far from AIB reviews. The coolers seem quite good. This is the only $699 AIB review I could find and performance and cooling seems fine.
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/zotac-geforce-rtx-3080-trinity/
I don't think anyone is taking FE reviews as representative of AIB cards. It hasn't happened in the past and it won't happen now. It also doesn't have anything to do with what MLID is claiming. His claim is that there will be no $699 cards available. You're introducing a lot of qualifications (brand popularity etc) that he never talked about.
kirbyrj
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At the end of the day if there are plenty of $699 well reviewed cards available in a reasonable time frame (end of year?), MLID is wrong. If there aren't, he very well could be right.
I'm just postulating what I think is going to have to happen to hit a $699 price point AND have a decent margin for the AIB. MLID didn't theorize like that. He simply thinks they won't exist and lays out his rationale. I don't speak for him. I just found his argument compelling.
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Well cards have not materialized at all, do there's that also. LOL
Do you know what the TAM is and EVGA's market share? Thousands may be very few in the scope of things...
yea there’s that. “That” being something that happens with every release. You sound like this is the first highly anticipated GPU release you’ve been around for.
So you are straw manning.
Well Nvidia failed to sell me a Turing card and I had plastic in hand for their RTX 3080, Nvidia failed again. Waiting for their competition to supply their customers cards is just plain stupid. What people will buy will come to what is available and if it is worth it or not. If AMD does not have anything that can be bought, performance/cost not as good etc. Nvidia and AIBs will be able to charge more since people will be willing to buy them. Really this is a FU launch by Nvidia, Nvidia is not taking care of their rather large assembly of customers believing what Nvidia put out to them. Sony is doing a much better job and we will see with the Xbox, by Christmas AMD may have 10million plus RNDA2 architecture GPU's being used while Nvidia has less than 100,000 gaming Ampere GPUs if that many at this rate.
Rather simple, if AMD has ample supply, performs good, on the shelf so people don't have to beg for one, spend hours hitting F5 (Really?), Nvidia will look pretty bad in a couple of months. Without competition and other products available, Nvidia so called plan may have worked somewhat. Now plans do change as conditions and circumstances changes, prices can go up but also prices can go down, just how much into the profit margin will Nvidia be willing to go? AIBs I don't think make 40% profit on card, I would be surprised if they make 10% but I really don't know.
I would expect AMD to have an undisclosed RNDA2 card at their CPU launch of Zen 3, especially if they can run it against an Intel best with Nvidia 3080 (maybe even 3090
) if they have something that will beat the 3080/3090. That would also give them time to respond to anything else Nvidia has waiting to prevent erosion of people's mind share dealing with Ampere.
So Moorse Law could have reported 100% correctly what was sent to him dealing with leakers, news is news, does not mean some crystal ball was used and I expect things will change dramatically as time goes on. If Nvidia goes into panic mode if RNDA2 is a much bigger surprise than expected (AMD has a record now exceeding expectations which has helped them tremendously) and we get into a real price war, is to be seen. If AMD has a 256bit bus GPU, 16gb, cheaper to make and faster than an Ampere 3080, that would be amusing.
Rather simple, if AMD has ample supply, performs good, on the shelf so people don't have to beg for one, spend hours hitting F5 (Really?), Nvidia will look pretty bad in a couple of months. Without competition and other products available, Nvidia so called plan may have worked somewhat. Now plans do change as conditions and circumstances changes, prices can go up but also prices can go down, just how much into the profit margin will Nvidia be willing to go? AIBs I don't think make 40% profit on card, I would be surprised if they make 10% but I really don't know.
I would expect AMD to have an undisclosed RNDA2 card at their CPU launch of Zen 3, especially if they can run it against an Intel best with Nvidia 3080 (maybe even 3090
) if they have something that will beat the 3080/3090. That would also give them time to respond to anything else Nvidia has waiting to prevent erosion of people's mind share dealing with Ampere.So Moorse Law could have reported 100% correctly what was sent to him dealing with leakers, news is news, does not mean some crystal ball was used and I expect things will change dramatically as time goes on. If Nvidia goes into panic mode if RNDA2 is a much bigger surprise than expected (AMD has a record now exceeding expectations which has helped them tremendously) and we get into a real price war, is to be seen. If AMD has a 256bit bus GPU, 16gb, cheaper to make and faster than an Ampere 3080, that would be amusing.
I don’t think it means what you think it means.
quoting one person, then assuming that one person is responsible for all others opinions and voice, thus using 'you people', sounds a lot like a strawman, but I guess you are at least correct in this, its is an ad populum. A fallacy nontheless.
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Do you have money riding on this or something? You seem to be heavily invested in anything said that goes against Nvidia.
No money and have no issues with anti-nvidia sentiment. See subject and see reality. I think it’s funny actually. But you do bring up a good point. You seem heavily invested in anything said that goes against MLID.
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I am. My life is riding on it.
5150Joker
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ROFL!!! How are people not seeing that MLID has been on point? I can’t understand this corporate loyalty bullshit. Unless NVIDIA paid me 6 figures, I wouldn't waste my time defending a multi billion dollar company who’s MO is to fleece me. Some people are fucking strange.
That right there is a nice strawman. Burden of proof is on the accuser etc etc.
GPP. check.
also, would have to be responding directly to someone and creating an alternative argument of theirs to strawman, bucko.