Tim Cook: "iOS Will Never Merge With OS X"

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Oct 4, 2015.

  1. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    This is exactly what you have with the iPad Pro when connected to the Smart Keyboard. Indeed there isn't even a track pad, you're always forced to use touch even a track pad could be better.
     
  2. Weenis

    Weenis I said WEENIS, not...

    Messages:
    4,807
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Uh, its the exact opposite. It's horizontally oriented when the keyboard is connected...
     
  3. bman212121

    bman212121 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,531
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Possibly. I'm definitely on the side of the fence that I wouldn't be able to get work done on an Ipad. Realistically it's only missing one input method, which is a cursor. You could create a trackpad onscreen with gesture support so it's not like it couldn't be done without any hardware changes. Both Android and Windows / Windows Phone have support for mice (V10 will for WP) so Apple's iOS would be the only one that doesn't. (Even Blackberry does :p) I'd imagine the stylus might be enough to bridge the gap for some people who would be able to get work done on it.
     
  4. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    I think he was referring to device being aligned vertically, not the orientation of the device in a vertical plan.
     
  5. Jadawin

    Jadawin Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    255
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2004
    Sure Mr. Cook. Just like Apple will never make iPhones with large screens, because nobody wants large smartphones... or small tablets... or larger tablets... or a stylus....:D
     
  6. felt

    felt Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    502
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2009
    iOS needs a damn file system. That is all.
     
  7. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,098
    Joined:
    May 7, 2005
    The only reason he's saying this is because MS beat them to it.

    Once again if they went that route they would be accused of copying MS and not 'innovating'. They have taken quite a bit of flak for that over the past 18 months.

    I think MS caught them out while they were in a bit of a tailspin after Job's death.

    In a alternative reality Job's got the treatment early on and now in 2015, iOX is the main unified OS across all Apple devices.

    I bet behind the scenes at Apple there has been a lot of swearing and recriminations going on how they missed an opportunity.
     
  8. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    I think the hybrid/convertible space is going to grow for a while and have a number of different options. What Apple is doing here initially with the iPad Pro is simply market response to a market that after all these years seems to have a good bit of life in it. iOS hybrid/convertible/laptop devices will have appeal to Apple folks but their pricing and capabilities versus Windows hybrids makes them a much tougher sell outside Apple's base.

    It's hard for me to imagine who an iPad Pro would serve as a replacement for a Surface Pro device generally speaking. For artists, designers, perhaps note takers that just need the basics it's possible. But I think one reason why tablet sales have crashed is because they really aren't as good a replacement for laptops as many were thinking.

    Competition in the hybrid space is heating up and rapidly changing. Apple can do well here I don't doubt but it's not going to redefine the space with simply a larger iPad running iOS with a keyboard accessory.
     
  9. martinmsj

    martinmsj [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,542
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Considering the "wonderful" new feature 'Split View' on the mac, I'd say they're more focused on iOS. It's great on the iPad, and piss poor on OSX. At first I thought this half-assed attempt was the result of not wanting to be compared or referred to as an implementation of 'Aero Snap' on Windows. Then I realized the OSX 'Split View' is basically the iPad Split View just shitty on OSX because it's a desktop OS.

    In short, split view on OSX doesn't make sense at all. The feature doesn't improve workflows, it breaks them.
     
  10. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    How so? I'm truly curious. I use 50/50 Aero snap app all of the time, it's a great way to work on two things side by side. How is it any different on OS X?
     
  11. ccman

    ccman Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    443
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Some might say MS saw the success of the iPhone and iOS and copied concepts for Windows 8/8.1/X (10) from Apple. I would say, as is the history with Microsoft and Apple, they both copied concepts from each other and from the industry at large. The original Mac OS copied concepts from Xerox PARC. Jobs was furious with Microsoft for "copying" the Windows GUI from Mac OS when in reality, Gates and Jobs saw the same Xerox PARC presentation. In programming, proper, legal, and attributed code re-use is encouraged.
     
  12. schizrade

    schizrade [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,744
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2003
    Having used OSX on a touch machine, it sucks. Not setup for touch at all. They could make it so, but as it is, not a good combo.
     
  13. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,098
    Joined:
    May 7, 2005
    To be honest I reckon Apple would just love to drop the Mac/OSX side of things. Sure it makes billions but if they ditched it it would mean they could concentrate 100% on iOS, tablet and mobile and maybe make even more.
     
  14. ccman

    ccman Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    443
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Since Windows 8, I've been using a refurbished Apple Macbook with OS X. I think Apple is merely taking a different tact than Microsoft. Both camps think their way is better. Apple created a new operating system based off the foundation of Mac OS X for the iPhone and later iPad focused on highlighting the best interface and features for the device form factor. Slowly, they have been incorporating features from each into the other where they feel it makes sense and leaving those features that don't suit the platform in their opinion. While I think it's possible the two to converge, I think Apple's currently thinks the two form factors have different strengths and weaknesses and want to play to the strengths of each. At this point, it would be hard to see Apple giving up the success and quality apps and control of iOS for OS X's weaker App Store and less control. They would be more at risk for alienating or losing the comparatively small Mac/Macbook userbase by moving Mac's to iOS.

    Microsoft created Zune. They took concepts from Zune and brought them over to Windows Phone 7. They received a lot a praise (relatively) for Zune and Windows Phone 7 so brought those concepts over to Windows 8. Maybe I misunderstood the trend, but it seemed like Microsoft's end goal was to support legacy x86/x64 Win32 code but saw Windows RunTime as the way forward and the future. (Did they? What do they think now?) Microsoft has such a large code base, install base, and user-base with Windows, they could afford to alienate some. The fact is if you leave Windows, you leave the programs you know, are familiar with, and are productive with. I know Windows internals much more than I know Mac or Linux internals. Microsoft has seen alienation turn into love a few times now. Windows XP wasn't well loved, perhaps with reason, until SP1, and Windows XP got great with Service Pack 2. I went from DOS 5 to DOS 6.22 to Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 OSR2 to Windows 98 SE to Windows 2000. I stayed on Windows 2000 for a while until I switched over to Windows XP. I had thought Windows XP was bloated, slow, and didn't like the UI when it first came out. Strangely enough, I liked Vista and 7 but didn't like Windows 8/8.1 Update. I find Windows 10 to still have some rough edges that I hope and expect to be smoothed out, probably with the next big update (Threshold 2? Update 1?).
     
  15. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Microsoft has already tried both approaches and Windows RT only/Surface RT was a huge flop. Surface RT/Windows RT only obviously had many issues especially very limited touch app support. But even if app support had been better, offering both tablet and desktop capabilities in devices that were no more expensive than tablet only devices was a huge knock against Surface RT/Windows RT only devices.

    What Microsoft is doing with x86 Surface tablets and Windows 10 makes sense for it as it's much easier to sell tablets and hybrids with the same price points that do it all. Likewise, iOS tablets and hybrids make sense for Apple, which is in the business of selling hardware and it would like to sell two devices to the same customers if it can.
     
  16. raz-0

    raz-0 [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,540
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2003
    Sorry, but I expect that the only reason he is saying that is that apple makes a fuckton of money from mobile and putting that mobile offering inside a walled garden. that they also make a fuckton of money from. They also manage not to lose money on making laptops.

    Their priority it continue making a fuckton of money off of that mobile walled garden and the devices within. From their perspective, going hybrid poses tremendous risk to the golden goose while providing potential for little benefit to their genral purpose computing offerings.

    MS on the other hand is missing out on mobile devices and all the growth that came with them big time while watching the general purpose computing market take some serious blows. MS is scrambling to ensure they have a place in other computing formats and the only thing they have to get their foot in the door is to leverage their dominance in the general computing realm. So that's what they are doing.


    I'll use the haggard accountant and their excel spreadsheet as an example. Yeah a keyboard and mouse is a must. They can do that on a surface pro. They can't do it as well on an ipad pro.

    However, if you look at MS, they are dumping huge piles of money and engineer time into office 365. Right now it is getting tons of features that are not trickling down to outlook. Office makes them money, and they are looking to have it make money on any platform via the web. IF they start doing that to word, excel, etc. Then the optimal office experience is via the web. Which you can reach by either the surface pro or the ipad pro. This situation becomes more and more likely the more "devices" become a market relative to the desktop/laptop market. And no, I'm not saying the tablet is killing off the PC. Just that businesses make the most money off of market growth. They can also reduce costs by not duplicating effort. MS may see the most beneficial avenue being moving things to the web and a subscription model. Apple seems ocntent with sharing darwin and XNU between ios and osx.
     
  17. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    9,339
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2006
    If you look at what Apple is doing, every year, more functionality from OSX gets added to iOS.

    In 5 years you will probably be hard pressed to find anything significant missing in iOS.

    At that point, would you rather a iOS laptop with touch, or a OSX laptop without. The iOS version will likely be better bang for buck as well, since there is no Intel tax.

    So I think Cooks is telling the truth, the OSX will remain separate, lacking touch, but iOS will one day be almost the equivalent of OSX.

    iOS will eventually gather up most of the laptop lineup. OSX will probably remain on desktops and a couple of old school laptops for old people stuck in the past.
     
  18. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    What features have been added to iOS over the last five years that are geared towards productivity? Split view multitasking is the biggest one I can think of and certainly important. But there's going to be a lot more needed than that. Trackpad/mouse support is a must for a machine that's supposed to used like a laptop.

    If iOS becomes almost the equivalent of OS X that would be more like the Windows 10 hybrid OS approach.
     
  19. nilepez

    nilepez [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    11,460
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    You must see something I don't. I can't imagine Professional Animation, Photography and Film post done exclusively on an iPad. There's nothing that I do exclusively on my phone/tablet and virtually everything is easier and faster on a desktop computer.
     
  20. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    An iPad Pro could certainly serve the productive needs of some people. But how would writing code or connecting any kind of USB device or using multiple monitors or using trackpad/mouse work with an iOS device? I'm not saying that these things are needed by most people and I get that Apple pricing is different. But these are things that would be expected by a PC laptop buyer spending $1k.

    There's a lot of murkiness here and many questions to be answered and while the iPad Pro will do well at least initially it's long term success isn't guaranteed. Not that Apple won't make tons of money from the thing or that it won't be commercially successful but it could run up against the same growth issues that normal iPads have the last few years.
     
  21. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    9,339
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2006
    IIRC 5 years ago, you still needed to connect an iOS Device to PC to activate it. Multitasking/notifications have had many improvements. Continuity to keep everything in sync between multiple devices. Improved Printing capabilities. App Extensions to improve information sharing between applications.

    Every release the feature gap closes more.

    You could probably go back and find one of those lists that haters made about the 2010 iPad showing why it "wasn't a real computer". Today probably 90% that that list would be covered.

    I expect track pad support will come with the first traditional clamshell iOS laptop.

    Not really Windows 10 is more like two completely different OS-UI paradigms that switches back and forth.

    I don't think iOS will ever get a classic desktop overlapping windows type interface. It will stay with full screen/split screen interface (maybe allowing a 3 or 4 split).

    To see what OS is important to Apple, you only have to look at major Enterprise deals Apple made with IBM/Cisco to see which way Apple is going, those deals are all about iOS.
     
  22. drakken

    drakken [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,196
    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2004
    so wait but I thought the point of iOS and OSX was the same base OS that developers could create one set of code?
     
  23. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Again, I'm not saying that something like an iPad Pro can't be used for productive tasks. But compared to a modern desktop OS it's still pretty limited. Just the ability to install whatever program one wants on a device I think is huge problem for iPads in this area.

    This is a must for a hybrid device that's to work like a laptop.


    Having been a long time user of hybrid devices, the one thing that I think makes them interesting to people is their flexibility. But with flexibility comes complexity and I don't know if that's what Apple really has in store for now. iOS can be used for some in productive scenarios as a laptop but it has some big deficiencies as it stands now. No doubt more of those gaps will be closed but I don't think it's anywhere near as close as you're thinking it is today. Maybe for Apple folks looking for a cheap MacBook. But $1k isn't cheap in the Windows world for such a device.
     
  24. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    9,339
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2006
    Locked down install can actually be considered an advantage for enterprise, and for many home users.

    I think there will be many features that iOS never gets from OSX, but they will mostly be things that dinosaurs like many of us here, have gotten used to: Overlapping Windows, Install software from anywhere are some of those things.

    Those are things we like, but aren't really necessary for productive use, nor for home computing.
     
  25. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Sure and Windows machines can be locked down in those situations.

    Lots of folks including Apple still say that desktop/laptops and tablet usage scenarios are very different and trying to force one on the other or combining them ruins the experience. A lot of home users complained about the tablet elements being forced on a keyboard and mouse driven device in Windows 8 and Windows 10 removes these things from keyboard and mouse driven machines because of the overwhelming negative feedback. I don't see how Apple could improve on something that people rejected so out of hand. Overlapping windows and freely distributed software might be old and not the way average people use computing devices but I think they tend to things that people will demand for some time to come on more expensive and productivity oriented devices.
     
  26. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    9,339
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2006
    This is very different situation, Apple isn't forcing touch on OSX desktop users.

    I am saying they will simply start selling iOS laptops, and people can choose to buy them or not. If iOS laptops fail to take off, then they don't take over. If they take over, it will be because that is what people chose.
     
  27. Exavior

    Exavior [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    9,657
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2005
    For how much people say Microsoft forced touch on people I have always used windows just fine with a keyboard and mouse. I know I am intelligent, but I didn't think that everyone else was that close to being mentally handicap.

    And no, it will be Apple starts to sell them and all the fan boys will come rushing to them and going on about how smart Apple is to give them the best of both worlds in a single device and how nobody ever though of that before.

    I actually thought that OSX was already taking on some of the IOS apps to replace existing desktop applications. I thought a group was complaining about that 2 or 3 releases ago.
     
  28. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,098
    Joined:
    May 7, 2005
    Yeah I found it really easy to use Windows 8 in non-touch. Some folks are just ultra retarded I guess.

    I think it's actually down to a old human behaviour trait. People like to band together over trivial issues. I call it Herd Rage. Generally means they have very little going on in their lives. Sad really, as there are so many more important things they should be angry about.
     
  29. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    44,157
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    I didn't nor did a lot of people have issues with Windows 8 with keyboard and mouse operation. But I have long said that the full screen elements weren't ideal and felt that modern apps should be windowed and that the Start Screen should be resizable. I definitely prefer Windows 10 on the desktop over Windows 8.x.

    There are those that think however that Windows 10 went backwards on the tablet side and I do agree to some extent. But I think making the UIs more consistent with each other was necessary. And Microsoft has acknowledged some of the issues here are adding back capabilities from 8.x back in, like the ability to determine which side of a split view an app opens in which is in the current Insider build. And Edge is supposed to eventually received touch enhancements.

    The hybrid space has caught a bit of fire since the Surface Pro 3 launch. Given the rough launch of the Surface line back in 2012, it is interesting to see so many devices take their inspiration from the device even outside of the Windows ecosystem.
     
  30. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    9,339
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2006
    It isn't my claim, I am just answering Heatless claim, and pointing out this is nothing like the Win8 situation.

    I am suggesting building iOS laptops, not changing the desktop OS.
     
  31. nilepez

    nilepez [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    11,460
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    I never used 8, but 8.1 seemed fine with a keyboard/mouse. I occasionally used a news app and I liked the Netflix app, but otherwise, I didn't really use any of them. 10 is better, but the way I use Windows hasn't changed much since Vista. I think these changes mostly affect those that use Windows like it's XP or 95. If you hit the windows key and search, it's all the same, with the exception of searching for items that are in Control Panel/Settings, which is a mess. I can work with it, but it's not good. I'd argue this is the worst it's been since Vista (assuming you couldn't search for control panel in Vista)
     
  32. ccman

    ccman Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    443
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    At first blush, Cook's statement sounds like flame bait or troll bait, but it can also be taken as defensive.

    The Wall Street Journal reported two months ago that Apple was working with over 40 technology companies to make the iPad more appealing for work(http://www.wsj.com/articles/with-ipad-sales-cooling-apple-leans-on-partners-1439422814). Given the name, I suspect the iPad Pro is a culmination of this work and is aimed at business, not consumer. I've seen plenty of small businesses using iPads for many different uses. Restaurants will use iPads as menus or POS devices. Doctors will use them to take notes and charge patients. I have yet to see a Surface or Surface Pro used in this capacity, even though it is more capable. Granted, this is my own experience and purely anecdotal.

    I think Apple is sensitive to the thought that they're going down the same path as Microsoft. I'm sure Microsoft and it's fans and advocates are looking for and seeing this as proof they're going down the right path. Apple fans and those who don't like Microsoft's approach view this as a bad sign. Fans of Jobs view this as Cook going back on Jobs' vision.

    I think this is something that is interesting to watch but in absence of other data points, a trendline cannot be drawn. There are Chromebooks but there are also Android tablets, convertibles, and laptops. There were rumors that Google was going to add the ability to run Android Apps on Chrome OS and bring the concepts of Chrome back to Android. They still seem to be two totally separate beasts. Microsoft still seems the only one currently traveling this road. I honestly thought we would have seen webOS or Ubuntu follow suit by now, but HP fumbled and to my eye, Ubuntu Touch looks different than Ubuntu desktop.