![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
Those who have/are thinking about moveing away from windows.
- Thread starter Private_Ops
- Start date
- Status
Ah, yes - KDE is a bit harder...a lot of people keep telling me how great font rendering is in KDE, but I just can't get along with it. Everything seems over the top with configuration options, which (to me, at least) is the very antithesis of "user friendly". I just want my desktop environment to stay out of my way, and KDE is just too intrusive.
But KDE makes it easy to add right-click -> launch terminal to the system.The day gnome picks that up...
Hehe....
Code:
sudo apt-get install nautilus-open-terminalIt's the default in Linux Mint, but not Ubuntu for some reason. Works in Nautilus windows too - opens a terminal in the directory you've navigated to.
Next?
Private_Ops
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2007
- Messages
- 1,870
Agreed Completely.
My lab instructor (at my local vocational school) swears by KDE. I personally hate it; reminds me WAY to much of windows... if I want windows, I'll use windows.
I also find it to be rather laggy... maybe it's the systems... iunno.
I personally prefer gnome by a long shot... hell even CLI sometimes. I'd like to try out fluxbox.
Initial_Reactor
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2006
- Messages
- 1,057
I have to thank MS for allowing me to go 100% linux at home. If it were'nt for the 360 I'd still have a win partition on my main rig at home. I do, however run windows at work (Luddite office, what can I say?) and it's an integral part of what I do for a living.
I run debian and ubuntu at home, but am about to rip ubuntu off my vaio and put arch on it. I've heard too much good about it NOT to try it.
I hate the stock network manager that comes in the gnome ubuntu desktop. I keep a copy of the latest stable wicd deb on a thumb drive for that reason. I'd encourage you to grab wicd and give it a whirl. May help you navigate your wifi woes.
I run debian and ubuntu at home, but am about to rip ubuntu off my vaio and put arch on it. I've heard too much good about it NOT to try it.
I hate the stock network manager that comes in the gnome ubuntu desktop. I keep a copy of the latest stable wicd deb on a thumb drive for that reason. I'd encourage you to grab wicd and give it a whirl. May help you navigate your wifi woes.
Hehe....
Code:sudo apt-get install nautilus-open-terminal
It's the default in Linux Mint, but not Ubuntu for some reason. Works in Nautilus windows too - opens a terminal in the directory you've navigated to.
Next?
ALSA doesn't work? (period - my card is fully supported, it's recognized in aplay -l, I've recompiled and reinstalled the latest, unmuted - nada for sound).
Ubuntu doesn't have an inittab and default runlevels all run X, so installing the nvidia drivers is a pain in the butt of editing rc3.d (although I've done this, so I'm past, it's still stupid) to remove GDM and then readd later.
Not sure about ALSA (although I use OSS, myself), but the Nvidia driver s as simple as...
Code:
sudo apt-get install nvidia-glx-newIf you want to run drivers which aren't tested (ie download them from the Nvidia site), just drop to a text console, stop gdm (/etc/init.d/gdm stop), kill Xorg if you need to and install from there. Works every time - no editing runlevels required.
That kernel paniced my box
And the restricted driver applet crashed with an error box with no text/etc. Just a stop sign and a blank button that I'm assuming was "exit"
Killing X.org also caused a kernel panic - I had to remove GDM from rc3.d and do a telinit 3 to get it to actually stop cleanly, and then go from there.
Hell, I don't even know how to switch back to OSS anymore on these, other than totally recompiling the kernel for it from the beginning, and I'd rather not even try that anymore - I'm so out of date on those it's not even funny. My sound driver thread is in here if you think you can help - I'm about to simply switch back to windows and buy an Apple for my mobile POSIX needs.
Ok. I had to reinstall as it got totally whorked somehow.
1. restricted driver panel is still broken. Now it doesn't just die, but it shows that it can't find the driver anymore to install.
2. Apt-get install nvidia-glx-new no longer exists.
3. apt-get install nvidia-glx doesn't work either.
So once again, I'm back to futzing with rc3.d. I'm seriously sitting here deciding if it's worth fighting with, or if I should just go down to the apple store to buy a macbook - $1400, but it might be cheaper in the long run than trying to get this particular posix environment working.
edit: woot. gdm stop worked this time.
edit2: but now simple-ccsm is no longer in the package lists. Jesus fucking christ they like to break shit daily.
That kernel paniced my box
And the restricted driver applet crashed with an error box with no text/etc. Just a stop sign and a blank button that I'm assuming was "exit"
Killing X.org also caused a kernel panic - I had to remove GDM from rc3.d and do a telinit 3 to get it to actually stop cleanly, and then go from there.
Hell, I don't even know how to switch back to OSS anymore on these, other than totally recompiling the kernel for it from the beginning, and I'd rather not even try that anymore - I'm so out of date on those it's not even funny. My sound driver thread is in here if you think you can help - I'm about to simply switch back to windows and buy an Apple for my mobile POSIX needs.
OK, to go back to OSS, look at this thread:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=5909858#post5909858
Post 24 is the one you want. The link in there shows you how to yank PulseAudio and ALSA, and replace them with OSS. To be honest, I can't see why they insist on putting PA in there...it's just an unnecessary complication, and breaks compatibility with all sorts of stuff (particularly Audacity). With regards to your Nvidia issues...it strikes me that you're overcomplicating it. Click System -> Administration -> Hardware Drivers and it should take care of it. Alternatively, install and run Envy, and it'll do the job for you. However, if you're frigged around with stuff a lot before, you may have dependency issues (the Nvidia drivers themselves are just not well behaved when it comes to installing and reinstalling...you can't really blame the distribution for that).
EDIT: Why do you need simple-ccsm? Why not just use compizconfig-settings-manager instead?
Jürgen Geuter said:
To me it is the flexibility and how applications are handled (hence why I quoted this blogpost which sums it up perfectly)
I started with linux at around the same time I started with windows ~1997 when I got to Uni.
and if you ask me Linux has improved/advanced the most
Some may moan and bitch abt hardware compatibility with windows and how awkward it is BUT hardware manufactures ONLY have themselves to blame
the 2.4.x series of the kernel had a nice external driver model such an external driver didn't have to get recompiled with each kernel bump...
2.6.x brought a (what some would say is BAD) new method where re-compile of some wrapper is needed. The kernel dev's for so long had to rev-eng hardware that in the end they did what was best for them and thus that means in-kernel drivers or an unfixed API for external modules wanting kernelmode access
Since being exposed to linux and windows at around the same time there is only one thing that I have come across with linux which forces me todo a re-install and that is a filesystem corruption (hardware failures don't count in this
) EVERYTHING else I can (on a wide range of distro's ... since they are essencially the same) is fixableWindows however... is a different story
Cause all the guides for setting it up told me to get simple-ccsm, and that's the first I've heard of the other (although simple gets compiz-whatsits too
). I did manage to get ALSA working, after manually editing the alsa-base file in modprobe.d, but sheesh. Again, system->admin->drivers for nvidia isn't working - I can tell now that the files are missing from the repository, so they're simply not getting downloaded. I was able to find them in a separate one that I added manually and get nvidia-glx-177 to work that way, but the built in too is currently broken due to something having been moved in the interwebs.
I'm definitely having some issues with the drivers still, but they're doing fine for X which is what I need it for - I have no intention of trying to game in Linux
To me it is the flexibility and how applications are handled (hence why I quoted this blogpost which sums it up perfectly)
I started with linux at around the same time I started with windows ~1997 when I got to Uni.
and if you ask me Linux has improved/advanced the most
Some may moan and bitch abt hardware compatibility with windows and how awkward it is BUT hardware manufactures ONLY have themselves to blame
the 2.4.x series of the kernel had a nice external driver model such an external driver didn't have to get recompiled with each kernel bump...
2.6.x brought a (what some would say is BAD) new method where re-compile of some wrapper is needed. The kernel dev's for so long had to rev-eng hardware that in the end they did what was best for them and thus that means in-kernel drivers or an unfixed API for external modules wanting kernelmode access
Since being exposed to linux and windows at around the same time there is only one thing that I have come across with linux which forces me todo a re-install and that is a filesystem corruption (hardware failures don't count in this
Windows however... is a different story
You forgot one Disad to linux that still bugs me - if the version in the repository isn't the version you need, manually installing it from the maker, either via package or source, can really confuse the rest of the package manager/repository and cause incompatibilities and problems later (especially if you have to compile dependencies from source). If it's not in the repository, you're on your own untested ground a lot.
cameron122000
n00b
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2008
- Messages
- 53
Most package managers have some type of setting that will allow you to "blacklist" the certain program that you want update. Usually it's a file or something that you add in the program's name, and next time you update it will skip checking for it. Try checking out the man page for your package manager.
beyond the one app though you've got all the deendencies you had to do manually too. Of can get really messy
then you are doing it wrong
IF you fight against the package manager you will fail and will get into a mess
ALL package managers have the ability to blacklist a version/s
Linux's shear advantage is it is a true shared-lib operating system(not some joke of a shared lib that dll is... wtf is the version in the name...) so if a package needs a lower version of a lib YOU add that to yr custom package list of dependencies and let yr package manager pull it in for you
tbf custom packages is where gentoo comes in the strongest and easiest to manage (be higher order SVN packages WITH all dependancies taken care or or a very old version of a package again with all the dependancies)
if you are going outside of what base repo's provide and outside of what yr distro's "universe" or user/community repo's provide THEN you have to manage the dependancies yrself
IF you fight against the package manager you will fail and will get into a mess
ALL package managers have the ability to blacklist a version/s
Linux's shear advantage is it is a true shared-lib operating system(not some joke of a shared lib that dll is... wtf is the version in the name...) so if a package needs a lower version of a lib YOU add that to yr custom package list of dependencies and let yr package manager pull it in for you
tbf custom packages is where gentoo comes in the strongest and easiest to manage (be higher order SVN packages WITH all dependancies taken care or or a very old version of a package again with all the dependancies)
if you are going outside of what base repo's provide and outside of what yr distro's "universe" or user/community repo's provide THEN you have to manage the dependancies yrself
If you're insisting on letting a package manager determne everything you've obviously never been involved in security.. I honstky prefer slack at times simply because it does away with all that. Nonetheless, my point stands- this is something that must be dealt with and is added complexity over other options
THATS not what I said...
What I said was if you fight against the package manager...
IF you need to add a custom package (be it patchset, new package, downgrade, upgrade) THEN bring it under package management...
create a valid rpm/yum entry
create a valid deb file
create relevant ebuilds
I help out with the unnoficial gentoo overlay for hardened GCC4.x (https://hardened.gentooexperimental.org/trac/secure/)
so 1) I know abt security
2) I know how to work with the package management system NOT!!! against it!!!
if you need todo things outside of what is available LEARN YOUR DISTRIBUTIONS PACKAGE MANAGEMENT!!!! then make use of it!
so again... Your Doing it Wrong
What I said was if you fight against the package manager...
IF you need to add a custom package (be it patchset, new package, downgrade, upgrade) THEN bring it under package management...
create a valid rpm/yum entry
create a valid deb file
create relevant ebuilds
I help out with the unnoficial gentoo overlay for hardened GCC4.x (https://hardened.gentooexperimental.org/trac/secure/)
so 1) I know abt security
2) I know how to work with the package management system NOT!!! against it!!!
if you need todo things outside of what is available LEARN YOUR DISTRIBUTIONS PACKAGE MANAGEMENT!!!! then make use of it!
so again... Your Doing it Wrong
Power users are fine. Joe blow who's trying to get a program to run and compiles some dependency isn't going to know shit about blacklisting in a package manager. For the admin who's trying to be compliant with regulations, he has to fight with it constantly. Both face added complexity over windows or OSx.
That's my point. Make sense?
That's my point. Make sense?
The Joe Whatever strawman is made of fail. He is indefensible, don't even try to.
Who brought up regulations in this thread? I think you're the only one in it that cares about Sarbanes-Oxley, or whatever it is you're alluding to. It certainly has nothing to do with the OP, which clearly implied a home use setting.
Perceived complexity depends on the user, distro, and the environment they are applied in. You and whoever it is you're arguing with aren't talking about the same thing.
It would make more sense if the thread was titled "Those who have/are thinking about moving away from windows at work" or maybe "Whoever hates package managers, post here!". It seems like whenever you show up in this part of the forum, you use anybody who disagrees with your point of view about Linux to give traction to some totally unrelated argument/scenario. Give it a rest already. None of these sorts of threads are fruitful, or are even remotely useful.
define "power users" seems to be a mis-used term around these parts
define "Joe blow" 2nd mis-used term around these parts
if this "Joe" bloke is actually going to the length of compiling then he knows about a toolchain, if he knows about toolchain then he must be able to read forum posts/wiki/blogs/... to get the understanding todo such a thing. IF he is capable/willing of these self-teaching research then he is capable/willing to learn how to use a package-manager to manage his custom apps.
Also what kind of applications would "Joe blow" need that are outside of the package manager universe? Ubuntu has a HUGE number of applications!!!
IF an OS was chosen such that an admin would have to mess to such a level you are suggesting to compliy with these imaginary regulations then he obviously didn't adhere to the regulations in the 1st place and chose a non-complient OS to start with
Fire the stupid admin
You choose an OS based upon your needs! not my problem is some shit for brains admin picked linux when Windows would have been a better choise. A shit for brains Work Admin tried to shuv onto us a Windows server when a linux one was needed, wasted 6months of argueing with him before he just setup a SuSe one and everything for the simulation server just worked...
what is your point anyway?
He's the general user who you're trying to sell your OS to
What the heck are you talking about? I'm talking about someone who has to be compliant to some security standard that the package baseline doesn't meet. This happens ALL the time and is something I deal with regularly. Lots of times you have to go outside the baseline to match what your security folk want. I'm bringing it up as an extra argument
The discussion I ORIGINALLY quoted was advantages and disadvantages to each OS, including a set of things about package managers. My point is that there is another disadvantage to package managers that was missed.
It was a response to a thread in a discussion forum. I suggest you read the post I replied to in the first place. I don't hate package managers - far from it. I just recognize that they're not perfect either.
This is shit I have to deal with ALL the time. Lord knows I had to fix parts of the emerge tree way back when with Gentoo that pulled the wrong dependencies, and I've seen it with fedora/ubuntu/etc as well, as well as our own software, on a daily basis. I'm not saying windows is better, I'm just saying that THIS is a concern with linux package managers, REPLYING to a comment on linux package managers.
People with experience and history using Linux or Unix based operating systems, package managers and the like
There are a million apps out there that have source downloadable, and ./configure, make, make install are pretty common instructions. Lots of advice out there to find for people just learning this too that leads you to places you might not want to be yet. Joe Blow is your grandma, my mom, any of the number of people that are trying this because they're tired of windows or the like and want to try something different.
Or one of those admins who doesn't know what DNS is (had to deal with 2 of those last week...
).
Don't know. People find strange things. It's something I deal with (not with Ubuntu, with ESX and Fedora / RHEL though).
I deal with DoD compliant sites and gambling/gaming groups (which are honestly worse) on a regular basis - both have stuff outside the normal package managers they require, and no package manager has, by default, a lot o what they need.
I honestly don't know a SINGLE OS that supports everything a DoD site needs out of the box.
What operating system would you use for a hardened DoD or federal site? You still need it to run most normal things (The army still runs apache, just like you or me), so what do you use?
I'm not saying windows is better. I'm saying having to do things outside the baseline of a package manager in an OS designed for package managers can be a pain and is something to consider.
I'm done here... I'm not ripping on any of you or the OS, I'm just trying to point out something I deal with regularly and I see as a possible disadvantage to package managers in reply to a post about them.
Thanks for trolling and reminding me why I don't post in here.
A switch from one thing to another ALWAYS comes with risk (1/2 the reason why MS is sooo entrenched and will be fore many years, momentum of installbase)
agreed. I didn't mean to quote you on my first reply to you - I meant to quote someone else that was talking about package managers.
I deal every day with pretty much every linux distro, every windows version (from NT4 to 2k8), our own operating system, and the host OSes our software runs in - I'm very used to people compiling things to deal with issues outside the package manager, and blacklisting everything is sometimes not that easy an option - sometimes you don't have an option about what OS you're running either, and have to make due with what you have or have been told to use. Package managers need to be able to handle altered dependencies better, but the options that linux gives you makes that hard and I don't yet have an answer to how better to do it, honestly. I just believe it could be done better, and that's something we need to improve on.
All these Linux distro's are definitely fun to play with. But as for moving away from Windows... I'm pretty sure you couldn't do that unless you knew ALL your programs would work in your Distro, and you weren't much of a gamer. For some programs you always could use VirtualBox or VMware to do some quick work in Windows, but if you are planning on spending hours like in Photoshop or something, then I think dual-booting is in order.
But I just started playing with Ubuntu/Kunbuntu, it's fun stuff I must say. Whole operating systems for free FTW
But I just started playing with Ubuntu/Kunbuntu, it's fun stuff I must say. Whole operating systems for free FTW
cameron122000
n00b
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2008
- Messages
- 53
Linux isn't trying to sell itself to anybody. It's free and open-source. If you want it, you get it.
Private_Ops
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2007
- Messages
- 1,870
I see my thread has turned into a bit of a flame war
vsboxerboy
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2005
- Messages
- 3,661
I don't think I could move away from windows because so many people I know use it and I often help them, try out new programs to pass along, networking can be easier, etc.
Yes. If one is going to hold tight onto windows-only programs, and never let go, don't bother installing linux.
Who installs windows and then begins complaining when their favorite linux apps don't work on it?????
Well, I was referring more to work. My Adobe CS4 programs have almost no hope of running on Linux, at least through Wine... if they ran some other way, I might consider using it for my daily work, just to see if it would run faster. But as for now, Linux is used for playing, but I have to go back to Windows for work.
I do. wget and SSH are so useful.
cygwin makes Windows a little more tolerable, check it out.
I use linux and have for years, but I do mostly development.
If you ask me which is the Better OS, id say for the developer in a unix like system. For the Average everyday user, Windows blows all the other options out of the water. Its plain and simple.
If you ask me which is the Better OS, id say for the developer in a unix like system. For the Average everyday user, Windows blows all the other options out of the water. Its plain and simple.
I would consider myself an average everyday user. Albeit I'm a bit more knowledgeable, but I, as a Linux user, would disagree as I'm sure most Apple users would also. Since we all know that OSX is as dumbed down as it gets.
That maybe the stance nowadays since it's become completely apparent that Linux will never really go anywhere on the desktop. But, take a look back to the late 90's... and the Linux zealots were exclaiming how you just wait, Linux will be on a large share of desktops. Sorry, it's not going to happen.
Linux needs to get under one distro. It's close to that, Ubuntu from a newb's point of view has really improved on that.
Since we all know that OSX is as dumb as it gets.
The old linux/windows/OSX comparison the way i see it is, linux is generally free and you get an entirely usable desktop environment for nothing more than the cost of a CD-R and your time invested. Windows you really get what you pay for, right now the mainstream version of vista can be had for ~$100 and for that you get the most compatible operating system (Hardware/Software) by leaps and bounds with all the juicy gaming support money can buy. OSX will run you a minimum of $599 to obtain legally and with that you get halfass support for software and peripherals with virtually no support for hardware, along with that you get a nice big tube of anal lube (You will need it).
- Status